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Well lets get to the heart of the matter, today I rolled my stats for my upcoming campaign. Well I rolled insanely good, and I do mean insanely. I rolled straight 18s, and I did not intentionally fudge my dice rolls.

Yes I know the whole speel about point buy but my DM likes to be old fashioned.

So now I run into the problem of what race to play, and what class would do really well with a set of perfect rolls?

I mean an Azlanti human would give me straight 20s.

This is gestalt game, starting at 5th level. So I can use monster races so long as they do not have more then 5 levels of adjustment.


Jack o' Lantern wrote:

Well lets get to the heart of the matter, today I rolled my stats for my upcoming campaign. Well I rolled insanely good, and I do mean insanely. I rolled straight 18s, and I did not intentionally fudge my dice rolls.

Yes I know the whole speel about point buy but my DM likes to be old fashioned.

So now I run into the problem of what race to play, and what class would do really well with a set of perfect rolls?

I mean an Azlanti human would give me straight 20s.

This is gestalt game, starting at 5th level. So I can use monster races so long as they do not have more then 5 levels of adjustment.

I highly doubt you will get the Azlanti human, but if your DM allows it then go for it, you can then pick any class you want, even the most MAD of classes will be fine with straight 18s/20s, i would suggest a Brawler, or maybe one of the other various Hybrid classes


Sounds like the perfect time for a horrendously MAD combo. A Monk/ Paladin, or a ghetto Mystic Theurge, or an Arcane Trickster.


A Monk Paladin would be lovely especially if you go enlightened route I think Cha/Wis/Dex to AC.

Any other suggestions?


The Champion of Irori/The Enlightened Prestige Class is made for exactly that combo, by the by.


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Oh just bend the system over a barrel, you'll never get the chance again.

Monk/Wizard. No armor, no spell failure, huge CMD, that has full 9th level spells.

Go full on broken spells sterling that has no physical vulneabilities.

Liberty's Edge

I thought of a dwarf monk/empyreal sorcerer.


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With those kinds of stats and gestalt, combination sword-and-spell can get pretty outrageous. Full caster crossed with martial, plus perfect stats for melee and casting means you can be good at pretty much everything, and able to do whatever is most effective at any moment.

A Spirit Guide Oracle crossed with a Daring Champion and those stats can be throwing around arcane/divine spells like a dedicated wizard/cleric, while also being able to use an amazing combination of buffs plus precise strike plus challenge to demolish opponents.

Or an Evangelist Cleric crossed with a Sohei could be an absolute fiend with a nodachi, flurrying it with weapon training, cleric buffs and inspire courage while still rolling out effective control and support when desired. Armor is kind of a joke when you can have strong dexterity + massive wisdom + scaling class AC.

I'm just mentioning divine examples here because of how much synergy Cleric spells like Aura of Doom and Instrument of Agony have with Divine Power and melee skill (Cornugon Smash + Aura of Doom for a fear-machine, for example), but the possibilities for massive versatility are plenty potent with arcane stuff too.

EDIT: Monk/ Paladin is awesome, but it feels slightly wasted since Monk already kind of has full BAB... what about Sacred Fist/ Paladin, and Crusader's Flurry with favored weapon?


Honestly, I'd probably go with something a little handicapping since -- even in a gestalt game starting at level five -- you're going to be leagues better than your companions. It's cool if you don't mind that but I would personally get fairly bored at the thought of always being the guy in the spotlight. Have you considered being an Arcane Duelist for buff spells and perhaps Oracle for a self-debuff?

I'm a "make sure the table is also having fun" kind of player.


Monk has Full BAB and you can pick up Crusader's Flurry with Paladin//Monk because Paladin gets Channel Energy.

But lets look at the saves for a moment. All good saves from Monk, +Cha from Paladin.
At level 2 when Divine Grace comes online you are looking at
+4 from Ability +3 from Saves +4 from Cha=11 at level 2 which have very low DC for even Fort saves.
Paladin gives you Divine Health at level 3, Monk gives Purity of Body at level 5 which does the same thing, so it can be traded through different archetypes.
Monk also gives a +2 to enchantment saves, so if your massive Will Save doesn't quite get you there you are basically immune.

Sacred Fist is good for spells though.

Monk//Wizard is interesting and flavorful. Get to close to the wizard and he beats you to death, stay to far away and he gets his spells online. Also with Mage Armor his AC in battle would be 22 at level one which is the same as a barb in full plate with a heavy shield.

All sweet ideas.
That Monk/Paladin idea is more insane with a Kasatha race (22 AC) and able to toss High Jump for something more useful like Scorching Ray or Barkskin.
Not to mention smiting on a monk with a +4 bonus on top of your too hit with level to damage during every hit a flurry is sweet.

I don't know about the Monk Sorcerer, give examples?


chkflip wrote:

Honestly, I'd probably go with something a little handicapping since -- even in a gestalt game starting at level five -- you're going to be leagues better than your companions. It's cool if you don't mind that but I would personally get fairly bored at the thought of always being the guy in the spotlight. Have you considered being an Arcane Duelist for buff spells and perhaps Oracle for a self-debuff?

I'm a "make sure the table is also having fun" kind of player.

I have considered the Bard, I do love them so damn much after all.

But our party is rather small only 3 people.
So I could do that and pick up Buffer and Debuffer but I don't normally handle those roles so much as play Party face and help with DPS.


Roll with a Drunken Master. Trades the redundant Purity of Body and mostly redundant (with those saves) Diamond Body for basically infinite Ki.

Combine with the useful Qinggong powers (High Jump for Scorching Ray and Slow Fall for Barkskin) and you're rockin' already.

Consider combining with Flowing Monk just because Stunning Fist sucks big fat donkey dick or Kata Master because again, Stunning Fist sucks diseased moose wang, and Panache (with opportune Parry and Riposte) is kinda neat to have.


Rynjin wrote:

Roll with a Drunken Master. Trades the redundant Purity of Body and mostly redundant (with those saves) Diamond Body for basically infinite Ki.

Combine with the useful Qinggong powers (High Jump for Scorching Ray and Slow Fall for Barkskin) and you're rockin' already.

Consider combining with Flowing Monk just because Stunning Fist sucks big fat donkey dick or Kata Master because again, Stunning Fist sucks diseased moose wang, and Panache (with opportune Parry and Riposte) is kinda neat to have.

Was that really needed?


Maybe, maybe not. The world may never know.


A low BAB / High BAB combo would be best, IMO. Full Spellcasting + not that.

Paladin / Monk does work.

Paladin / Sorcerer is a tried and true Gestalt combo.

Bloodrager / Druid might be interesting. Wildshape + Bloodrage + High BAB + Arcane and Druid spells in Wildshape.

Wizard / Cleric is just the godsend of all spellcasters. You can take levels of Mystic Theurge pretty quickly and then get a full BAB class with the other, too, so you could go Wizard / Cleric and then go Mystic Theurge / Fighter. You'd be level 3 in both full spellcasting classes before making the switch to Fighter/Theurge, and you'd pretty much rock the house. (Full spellcasting in two classes + high BAB + no spellcasting levels lost. BOOYA.) Alternatively, Druid could be used in place of Cleric if you prefer Druid spells.

Arcane Trickster goes through similar levels of hilarity thanks to this for similar reasons. You can probably figure out why.

Not sure if your GM allows PRCs for Gestalt, but if he does I'd definitely consider one of those.


Mystic Theurge is explicitly disallowed by Gestalt rules, as are most PrCs that advance the abilities of another class.

There is grey area for some (Arcane Trickster for example, many GMs allow with the caveat that it must be taken on the Wizard side of the Gestalt) because they have unique abilities, but most are banned.


That cuts back on a lot of cheese, then. Good to know.


The thing about throwing a Sohei Monk into the mix is that you get weapon training, plus as soon as you have weapon training you qualify for those +2/+2 fighter gloves, plus you have the ability to run ki strike through a weapon, plus you can make any mount useful through Barkskin, wisdom AC, bonus Mounted Skirmisher, etc.

The only comparably powerful Monk archetype that comes to mind is actually the Monk of Four Winds, simply because at level 9 you can grab Shaitan Skin and start throwing brutal reflex-save-or-staggered acid bombs onto your weapon strikes once per round.


Looking at the four winds I dont see this ability. Care to explain how?
Although Slow Time is a sweet ability.


Shaitan Style is a Style Feat chain.


Jack o' Lantern wrote:

Looking at the four winds I dont see this ability. Care to explain how?

Although Slow Time is a sweet ability.

It's a combo thing; the 4W Monk gets Elemental Fist as a bonus feat, with a scaling damage progression; this means that unlike a normal Monk, a 4W can pick up Shaitan Style at 5 (add your wisdom to your Elemental Fist damage) and then Shaitan Skin at 9 (stagger with Elemental Fist). A normal Monk can't grab Elemental Fist without Dragon Ferocity or 8BAB. Elemental Fist with Shaitan Skin is basically like throwing a Magus spellstrike, but arguably even better (decent damage + stagger, and even if you miss you still get to try to stagger).

Grand Lodge

2 choices

Spelleater primalist arcane bloodrager//Orc bloodline sorcerer or witchdoctor Id play it as a half orc just for flavor. Embrace the orc flavor

Or

Druid//monk- godly mix that can abuse in combat or casting. Cleric works too but druid offers so much with wild shape. Dwarf or human is great race choice. I like steel soul feat for dwarfs and the trait that boosts a dwarfs magical defenses.


Some of the concepts that are at least a bit MAD:

Monk//Empyreal Sorcerer is an amusing Wis-monkey. You're a Sorcerer with Wis as your casting stat, so with Monk you also get to add Wis to AC and various other stuff-- and hey, you'll actually invest heavily in it so your Monk save-based stuff won't be useless!

Sacred Fist over Monk is probably better, admittedly, but hey.

Bloodrager//Sorcerer or Oracle is nasty. Bloodrager//Scarred Witch Doctor is just wrong.

Kensai Magus//Wizard (or Arcanist, or Witch, or Sage Sorcerer) is a good way to maximize your action economy, and you certainly have the stats to run it.

The first one wants Dex/Wis/Con+Str if you don't go for an Agile AoMF or similar.

The second is Str/Con/Cha, though using Scarred Witch Doctor means you don't need a lot more than your starting Cha (I would, however, also do as Fruian said and invest in Eldritch Heritage. You've got the Cha and don't need all that many feats, why not?).

The third, I'd skip out on the usual Magus Dex Shenanigans and spend your feats where you want, so you need Str/Int alongside some Con/Dex to survive the early levels.

Really, it's the early levels and feat qualifications where you have the advantage. Come level twelve nobody will care all that much about your 18 Cha if you're a Monk//Sorcerer. So take advantage of those two things to pull off some amusing shenanigans.

Grand Lodge

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Screw it. Just go Rogue.

This is the only chance you will have to barely keep up with the rest of the party, as a Rogue.


Kensai Magus/Sacred Fist.

Spell combat with Blood Crow Strike.

Also, have 22 unarmored AC at first level without buffs on.

EDIT: actually, wait, you only get 1 INT to AC at level 1. Oh well. Still pretty ok.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Screw it. Just go Rogue.

This is the only chance you will have to barely keep up with the rest of the party, as a Rogue.

Believe it or not?

Rogues are kinda cool in gestalt.

A Rogue//full caster actually gets the spells necessary to sneak attack consistently and buff his accuracy.

A Rogue//martial doesn't have to worry about the accuracy issues anymore, and Rogue can pass out at least a few more feats as well as the damage and skill points that most full martials lack. Also, an amusing number of martials lack good Reflex saves.

A Rogue//other partial-BAB class has access to the partial class' accuracy booster, which can often swing the difference. Some of these are still kind of terrible (Rogue//Investigator, for example, and Rogue//Monk isn't much to look at), but others actually work pretty well.

You're still generally better off doing something like Vivisectionist over it, of course, but it's not nearly as useless of a class as it is normally.


I'm going to suggest rolling new stats and play a character with limitations, a character that can be challenged, and that won't outshine everyone else at the table.


Stats don't make a character outshine everyone else at the table. 9th level casting does.


Court Bard//Thug could be pretty bad ass.


kadance wrote:
I'm going to suggest rolling new stats and play a character with limitations, a character that can be challenged, and that won't outshine everyone else at the table.

You can challenge an all-18 character just fine?

It's a bit tricksy at the low levels, but starting at 5th alleviates a lot of that. We're out of the 18-Str-is-king range, out of the 18-Con-keeps-me-alive range, and into the I-really-just-need-my-primary-stats range.

Sure, the dude will have +2 HP/level or so over everybody else, and his saves will be a little better, but that doesn't make it impossible to challenge him by any means.

At level one all those minor plusses matter. +4 AC from your Dex, when the guy in Light Armor and 16 Dex only has 17 AC total, matters. +4 on your Will save over the guys who left their Wis at 10ish matters.

At level five they start to matter less.

At level ten or twelve, we really only care what your primary stat is.


kadance wrote:
I'm going to suggest rolling new stats and play a character with limitations, a character that can be challenged, and that won't outshine everyone else at the table.

All of that is dependent on your class, not your starting stats.

Dark Archive

Wizard/Magus? Grab the Broad Study magus arcana, and suddenly you can use Spell Combat and Spellstrike with the entire wizard list. Or magus/shaman of battle would work as well, although you'd be hurting for swift actions I'm sure.


LoneKnave wrote:

Kensai Magus/Sacred Fist.

Spell combat with Blood Crow Strike.

Also, have 22 unarmored AC at first level without buffs on.

EDIT: actually, wait, you only get 1 INT to AC at level 1. Oh well. Still pretty ok.

To be fair we are starting at 5th so I would have the Int to Armor just fine.

This was another reason I was considering the Sacred Fist or Monk//Paladin (Enlightened) Wis, Dex, and Cha to AC.

I am not really wanting to go overboard just something fun and unique with this rare chance.

Also I don't want to reroll, thats like hitting the lottery and saying no thanks I just want another random ticket.


LoneKnave wrote:
Spell combat with Blood Crow Strike.

Unfortunately spell combat involves a full-round action, while Blood Crow Strike is a 1 round spell that involves making unarmed strikes or flurry of blows.

Magus/ Monk is problematic in that flurry of blows and spell combat don't mix. Magus/ Anything Arcane suffers from the fact that only the Magus spells may be used with spell combat, while the overall selection overlaps. Magus/ Divine Caster, on the other hand, can cross Magus melee power with divine buffing and support...


BadBird wrote:
LoneKnave wrote:
Spell combat with Blood Crow Strike.

Unfortunately spell combat involves a full-round action, while Blood Crow Strike is a 1 round spell that involves making unarmed strikes or flurry of blows.

Magus/ Monk is problematic in that flurry of blows and spell combat don't mix. Magus/ Anything Arcane suffers from the fact that only the Magus spells may be used with spell combat, while the overall selection overlaps. Magus/ Divine Caster, on the other hand, can cross Magus melee power with divine buffing and support...

You can grab spells from other lists with spell combat/spell strike if you take Broad Study. So you take broad study for warpriest, and you can literally double full-attack as a full round spell combat, once you get blood crow. Getting or not getting your "off hand" attacks for the spellcombat-flurry is debatable, but even if you don't, that's just like, 1 less attack at 5.

As a further bonus, if you take Ki arcana, your arcane and ki points are interchangeable, and you can take Ki channel to channel energy for ki points. 2 fervor for 2 ki (bleh), but as levels go, it gets up to 7 Ki for 2 fervor.


Magus//Anything Arcane works fine thanks to the Broad Study arcana. Selection isn't a huge deal if you're a Wizard or the like, just means you get twice as many spells free.


So I did some questioning with my GM.
The Elan race is said to be immortal so if I wanted too... I could make all my mental stats go from 18 to 21 and have a floating +2. (+3 to all mental stats due to venerable age) If I really wanted to take this to the fondue party.

Also I can play an Azlanti if I wanted (Apparently its going to be a campaign based around finding and bringing back pockets of Azlanti)


Hungry ghost monk+magus will eventually get you unlimited spells....

I'm not completely sure if they errata'd the Bladed scarf dancer to allow for canny defense but if they did then you're good.

I like orc, no problem with 3 16's and a 22, especially when you're dealing with only 4th level spells (Basically at will).

I mean then again...

Orc Hunter, Shapeshifter ranger(Or maybe it's infiltrator), alchemist, bloodrager gets somewhere in the ballpark of 40 str pretty quickly.

Who needs magic when you can be a HAMMERMANCER


kestral287 wrote:
Magus//Anything Arcane works fine thanks to the Broad Study arcana. Selection isn't a huge deal if you're a Wizard or the like, just means you get twice as many spells free.

That's true, Broad Study does allow blending. It just seems less optimal to me to double-down on a very similar feature than it is to introduce a whole new dimension. Magus spell combat crosses with full BAB to devastating effect in melee. On the other hand, if the idea is to cross a full arcane caster with combat ability, Magus seems like a weaker choice to me than doing something like Blade Adept/ Sacred Fist or Sorcerer/ Paladin or whatever, where you're really working the martial side of the equation along with the casting.


It's a fun build, and I wouldn't discount the massive action economy boosters these two classes have.

Grand Lodge

Summoner/ANYTHING

Be the Face, Buff/Debuff and the Eidolon backs everyone up on the frontline (if you do not hop in with a bastard sword that is)

Just my thoughts.


BadBird wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
Magus//Anything Arcane works fine thanks to the Broad Study arcana. Selection isn't a huge deal if you're a Wizard or the like, just means you get twice as many spells free.
That's true, Broad Study does allow blending. It just seems less optimal to me to double-down on a very similar feature than it is to introduce a whole new dimension. Magus spell combat crosses with full BAB to devastating effect in melee. On the other hand, if the idea is to cross a full arcane caster with combat ability, Magus seems like a weaker choice to me than doing something like Blade Adept/ Sacred Fist or Sorcerer/ Paladin or whatever, where you're really working the martial side of the equation along with the casting.

I stated above unlimited spells by level 13 with Magus+Hungry ghost monk through ki arcana....

Also unlimited arcane pool and whatever you can do with that.. but only if you play your cards right.

I used a ranged vital strike build for this ditching a lot of the spellstrike features in favor of a wide array of versatility, it allowed me unlimited rage too, which i simply used for maxed out vital strike attacks.

The build was pretty simple:

Grav bow, abyssal bloodrage, vital strike, be large, have huge equivalent double xbow,

Kill something, regain three rounds of rage, be fatigued, reload or go melee by kicking things in the chest with a spellstrike.


Exactly how does this make an unlimited Arcane pool?
Edit: Nevermind read how.

Hmm if you went a crit fisher build that would make you have near endless ki/arcana.

We can use some 3.5 books, like the Mercenaries books from AEG so a Falcata with Serrated and Laminated Steel would be 18-20/x4 on a 1d8

Add Keen or Improved Critical and its a 15-20/x4 which means he will crit more often and will pretty much kill anyone he hits (which returns Ki/Arcana as well.)


Jack o' Lantern wrote:

Exactly how does this make an unlimited Arcane pool?

Edit: Nevermind read how.

Hmm if you went a crit fisher build that would make you have near endless ki/arcana.

We can use some 3.5 books, like the Mercenaries books from AEG so a Falcata with Serrated and Laminated Steel would be 18-20/x4 on a 1d8

Add Keen or Improved Critical and its a 15-20/x4 which means he will crit more often and will pretty much kill anyone he hits (which returns Ki/Arcana as well.)

Limit to self buff spells and go barbarian with those three feats fir regaining rage on a kill and you win the game

You just win

The game

Winning


This is probably not what you want to hear but reroll. You will outshine everyone with 18 stats. NO MATTER WHAT YOU PICK!!! Also most good GMs who insist on rolling should impose the opposite of the minimum reroll rule, to keep this from happening.

Grand Lodge

Goddity wrote:
This is probably not what you want to hear but reroll. You will outshine everyone with 18 stats. NO MATTER WHAT YOU PICK!!! Also most good GMs who insist on rolling should impose the opposite of the minimum reroll rule, to keep this from happening.

No.

Unless he goes full caster, then the full caster will eventually outshine him.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Goddity wrote:
This is probably not what you want to hear but reroll. You will outshine everyone with 18 stats. NO MATTER WHAT YOU PICK!!! Also most good GMs who insist on rolling should impose the opposite of the minimum reroll rule, to keep this from happening.

No.

Unless he goes full caster, then the full caster will eventually outshine him.

Right. But the full caster beats everyone, I thought that was assumed. I guess it depends on what the group thinks. I am just saying what would happen if someone tried that at our table. Good point.

How far are you going with this campaign?


Goddity wrote:
This is probably not what you want to hear but reroll. You will outshine everyone with 18 stats. NO MATTER WHAT YOU PICK!!! Also most good GMs who insist on rolling should impose the opposite of the minimum reroll rule, to keep this from happening.

I'm beginning to think a lot of people don't understand exactly what stats DO in this game.

Stats are not relevant whatsoever unless they're one of you primary stats.

Do you know how much anybody gives a f%~~ that you Fighter has 18 Cha? None. They don't care. Because it doesn't matter.


would you be willing to break the game with a suboptimal? like a PF chronicler combined with a pascifist monk with a vow of poverty?

i mean it'd be hilarious if you minmaxed something really really stupid.

if you go for goblin for example, you can max out acrobatics, and take roll with it... then you just tell everyone you're immortal with bluff/intimdate checks

Grand Lodge

What races are available?

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