Dismount and 5' step?


Rules Questions

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LazarX wrote:

Given that unless you have the particular feat, dimension door ends your turn, it shouldn't be t hat difficult. Most wizards I GM don't dimension door themselves into adjacent a threatened space, at least not on purpose.

Dude, he said 'before' casting the spell. And that happens all of the time. I guess illegally according to you.


LazarX wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
LazarX wrote:
There is no way that you can argue that dismounting isn't a form of movement. You get off a horse, you move down. You remove yourself from a mount... that's movement.

Quite right. However, I could argue that, in this context, when the game refers to "movement" it is referring to "a move action made to move," not movement as we understand it in the English language. At its heart, it's just another game terminology versus modern English debate, where we argue about where we draw the line between the two.

I've been here long enough and have seen enough of these kinds of threads to understand that implicitly.

EDIT: It looks like bbangerter sorta' ninja'd me on this one.

You could argue that.... you can also argue that the moon is made of green cheese. Argument itself does not make a premise valid.

If you by your own actions, now occupy a different position in 3d space than you did before, than it's movement, plain and simple.

Whoah, wait just a minute. Where in the rules did you get the 'by your own actions' qualifier for movement?

It seems to me that you invented that out of whole cloth to avoid the rather silly proposition that any movement precluded a 5' step, which is the only logical conclusion if the rules are read as strictly as you claim they should be.

Nowhere in the rules does this idea of movement 'by your own actions' play any role in the adjudication of the 5' step.

Quote:
You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.

Taken literally, that includes falling, being bull rushed, or even standing still on a moving ship, vehicle, or mount.

Now, taken in context of movement rules, that clearly should refer to using your speed to move considering the following text:

Quote:
You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.
Quote:

Move

The simplest move action is moving your speed. If you take this kind of move action during your turn, you can’t also take a 5-foot step.
Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category, including climbing (up to onequarter of your speed) and swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed).

The context is crystal clear.


LazarX wrote:
Gauss wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Gauss wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Gauss wrote:


It makes even less sense that you would restrict a person who teleports from taking a 5' step. When you take that rule out of context you wind up with such inconsistencies.
You keep saying that as an a priori statement without saying why such a ruling would be inconsistent, where it would actually be VERY consistent with the general rule that movement rules out making 5 foot adjustments (the proper name we should be using) in the same turn.

Except that the rule doesn't unless you read it out of context.

In the 15 or so years of 3.X/PF I have never seen someone say that you cannot 5' step before/after casting a teleportation spell.

In that same period, I've yet to see anyone try to do so.
Wow, so you have never seen a Wizard 5'step away from an enemy before casting Dimension Door? That is...difficult to believe.
Given that unless you have the particular feat, dimension door ends your turn, it shouldn't be t hat difficult. Most wizards I GM don't dimension door themselves into adjacent a threatened space, at least not on purpose.

Please re-read my example. The 5' step occurred BEFORE the Dimension Door. But, according to your interpretation, you cannot 5' step and cast dimension door in any order.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Unless you plan on dimension dooring off your horse, please get back on topic.


Dude, that is on topic. Clearly dimension door is 'moving' in the exact same way that mounting is.

You said you would not allow a 5' step and a mount action.

It seems that you would allow a 5' step and casting dimension door (since you want to avoid discussing this conflict).

'moving a distance' is contextually defined in pathfinder as using your speed to move. It's not falling, it's not being bull-rushed, it's not teleporting, it's not dimension dooring, it's not mounting, it's not dismounting, it's not standing up from prone.

It's using your speed to move.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
_Ozy_ wrote:

Dude, that is on topic. Clearly dimension door is 'moving' in the exact same way that mounting is.

You said you would not allow a 5' step and a mount action.

It seems that you would allow a 5' step and casting dimension door (since you want to avoid discussing this conflict).

'moving a distance' is contextually defined in pathfinder as using your speed to move. It's not falling, it's not being bull-rushed, it's not teleporting, it's not dimension dooring, it's not mounting, it's not dismounting, it's not standing up from prone.

It's using your speed to move.

The rules don't allow a 5 foot step and a move action (that involves personal movement)... that's quite clear. I'm not going to go into spell discussion since one, I'd have to think that over, and as far as I'm concerned that's a completely different situation than the one on topic. which involves two actions regarding the volountary physical movement of a body.

If you dismount off your horse, and decide to claim that you are sharing the same square then you are squeezing with your horse.... no 5 foot adjustment is possible and other issues rise up.

If you dismount and land on a square adjacent to your horse, then you have moved one square, and again, no 5 foot adjustment is possible. You can MOVE, as little as 5 feet, but it won't be a 5 foot adjustment.

Your ability, or lack of to dimension door is completely irrelevant to the matter at hand.


It is completely relevant since it falls under the same definition of movement that you are insisting on: an action by which you move some distance. In fact, the part of the rules that you are keying on don't even specify that the movement must be from your own action, despite your hand-waving.

A move action in which you end up in a different square than when you started is actually not the pathfinder definition of moving a distance. As demonstrated by the rules I quoted, the action 'moving a distance' involves using your speed.

Since you do not use your base speed, climb speed, swim speed, or fly speed to perform a mount/dismount move action, then clearly that falls under the 'other move actions' that specifically allow a 5' step according to the rules, and is not 'moving a distance'. This is why feats that let you take an extra/immediate 5' step generally subtract that 5' from your base speed for your next turn, like sidestep and step-up. Note, neither of these feats would prevent you from mounting in the subsequent turn, even though you couldn't 5' step.

You are applying out of context definitions that apply equally to dimension door and falling as they do to mounting, with an equally silly result as the consequence.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you undertake a move action that puts you in a different square than what you started it in, than that's a move.


LazarX wrote:

If you undertake a move action that puts you in a different square than what you started it in, than that's a move.

So if I cast dimension door as a standard action and end up in a different square I have moved and therefore and cannot 5' step? This is exactly why DD is relevant to this discussion.

(Don't try to argue that a standard action works different, because I can use a standard action to move my speed as well).


LazarX wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

Dude, that is on topic. Clearly dimension door is 'moving' in the exact same way that mounting is.

You said you would not allow a 5' step and a mount action.

It seems that you would allow a 5' step and casting dimension door (since you want to avoid discussing this conflict).

'moving a distance' is contextually defined in pathfinder as using your speed to move. It's not falling, it's not being bull-rushed, it's not teleporting, it's not dimension dooring, it's not mounting, it's not dismounting, it's not standing up from prone.

It's using your speed to move.

The rules don't allow a 5 foot step and a move action (that involves personal movement)... that's quite clear. I'm not going to go into spell discussion since one, I'd have to think that over, and as far as I'm concerned that's a completely different situation than the one on topic. which involves two actions regarding the volountary physical movement of a body.

If you dismount off your horse, and decide to claim that you are sharing the same square then you are squeezing with your horse.... no 5 foot adjustment is possible and other issues rise up.

If you dismount and land on a square adjacent to your horse, then you have moved one square, and again, no 5 foot adjustment is possible. You can MOVE, as little as 5 feet, but it won't be a 5 foot adjustment.

Your ability, or lack of to dimension door is completely irrelevant to the matter at hand.

Correction: the rules don't allow a 5 foot step and a "Move" move action.

You, and others, have continually stated that it doesn't matter what the action is, only the fact that you traveled any distance. Thus, teleportation is a legitimate question and completely on topic.

How about this, cleric with the travel domain uses Dimensional Hop (a move action). Can he 5' step beforehand? Can he 5' step afterwards?

According to you, he has used a move action and traveled distance and thus cannot take a 5' step.

The problem with that is that this is a teleportation effect, not a any kind of action involving movement speed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
bbangerter wrote:
LazarX wrote:

If you undertake a move action that puts you in a different square than what you started it in, than that's a move.

So if I cast dimension door as a standard action and end up in a different square I have moved and therefore and cannot 5' step? This is exactly why DD is relevant to this discussion.

(Don't try to argue that a standard action works different, because I can use a standard action to move my speed as well).

Like I've said before, if you're not going to stick to the subject at hand, we are done. Your attempts at redirection from the central issue at hand indicate you're not willing to either stick to the topic at hand, nor argue it from it's own merits.

We are done sir. Have a good day.


LazarX wrote:

If you undertake a move action that puts you in a different square than what you started it in, than that's a move.

Not according to the pathfinder rules. A 'move' as opposed to a 'move action' is using your speed to move a distance. Anything else is a move action equivalent that allows a 5' step according to the rules.

The out-of context literalism that you are invoking is unwarranted and ends up with silly results which you seem to conveniently ignore.


LazarX wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
LazarX wrote:

If you undertake a move action that puts you in a different square than what you started it in, than that's a move.

So if I cast dimension door as a standard action and end up in a different square I have moved and therefore and cannot 5' step? This is exactly why DD is relevant to this discussion.

(Don't try to argue that a standard action works different, because I can use a standard action to move my speed as well).

Like I've said before, if you're not going to stick to the subject at hand, we are done. Your attempts at redirection from the central issue at hand indicate you're not willing to either stick to the topic at hand, nor argue it from it's own merits.

We are done sir. Have a good day.

Sure. No problem. When you can't understand the relevance of additional examples, you are right, we are done :)


LazarX wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
LazarX wrote:

If you undertake a move action that puts you in a different square than what you started it in, than that's a move.

So if I cast dimension door as a standard action and end up in a different square I have moved and therefore and cannot 5' step? This is exactly why DD is relevant to this discussion.

(Don't try to argue that a standard action works different, because I can use a standard action to move my speed as well).

Like I've said before, if you're not going to stick to the subject at hand, we are done. Your attempts at redirection from the central issue at hand indicate you're not willing to either stick to the topic at hand, nor argue it from it's own merits.

We are done sir. Have a good day.

The central issue at hand is your adherence to a single sentence rather than the context of the rule as a whole. As a result we are simply applying your 'single sentence' interpretation to its logical conclusion. It is completely on topic.

Either
A) The rule prevents a 5' step when you travel any distance for any reason
OR
B) The rule prevents a 5' step when you use any form of movement speed.

If "A" then you cannot use a variety of spells, abilities, etc that involve movement without using a movement mode (walk, fly, swim, climb, etc.).


The rule doesn't fit in a vacuum, that is why other, related rules are relevant.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
We are done sir. Have a good day.

Huzzah! We won!

I award one internetz.


I'd have called DD casting a spell rather than moving and allowed the 5' step. I wouldn't stop you from 5' stepping because you were on a conveyor belt so why for DD?

As to the dismount the group I play with counts that as movement precluding a 5' step. We have always played if you could do the action without moving your feet then it doesn't stop a 5' step.

I'm a bit disappointed LazarX didn't use "Sirrah!" I suppose it doesn't suit pluralisation very well...


When you dismount, can you move the rest of your speed as part of that same move action? Of course not. That's because dismounting is an alternate move action that allows a 5' step, not the 'move a distance' action that precludes it. If it were normal movement like climbing, walking, or swimming, you could use your speed before or after the action.


As I said we count it as "If you can do it standing still"* you can have the 5' step. Very difficult to get off a mount without actually moving. So more of an alternative movement action which actually involves moving your whole body by your own volition really.

*standing still in the sense of "in the same spot" rather than "rigidly as though paralysed"**

**Not that I'm assuming someone would be that pedantic....oh no, no no.


Can you dismount by having the mount move out of your square?

And if you are medium and cast enlarge, can you no longer take a 5' step since you have now moved into 3 new squares?


Komoda wrote:

Can you dismount by having the mount move out of your square?

And if you are medium and cast enlarge, can you no longer take a 5' step since you have now moved into 3 new squares?

It would have to move quickly enough that you didn't go with it and you'd then fall to the ground and use the soft fall part of Ride.

But you haven't actually moved when enlarged have you? you just take up more room which is not really the same.


Is it? If you were medium, you could step into squares that are 6 spaces from your start. Now after casting the spell, you can step into a square up to 7 spaces away from where you started. You have gained that extra square of movement. How is that extra movement (from a standard action of casting a spell) not movement, but dismounting (even as a free action) is movement?

Why would the horse have to move so quickly? You and your horse "move" at the same time. It moves, you slip off as it is doing so. Like ghost riding a bicycle when you were a kid. You then haven't moved any squares. If the moving of squares is the problem, wouldn't this solve it?


Yes but if you didn't step into a square you wouldn't have moved so whether the square you didn't move into was 6 or 7 spaces away is equally moot.

Because there is no mechanic in PFRPG for dismounting into the space occupied by your mount.


Where is the mechanic that tells what square you dismount into?

Even if there is one, I would be dismounting into the square the mount WAS in, not the square the mount IS in.

Mechanically:
1) I guide with knees as a free action to get my mount to start moving.
2) Mount starts moving.
3) I dismount into one of the squares I started in (since I started in 4).
4) I take a 5' step.
5) I attack my enemy.

I am not advocating that it would HAVE to be done this way, but I see no reason why it couldn't.

You and your mount act on the same initiative. You charge and attack together. There is no reason that I can find why you couldn't dismount as it moves out of your way.


LazarX wrote:

If you undertake a move action that puts you in a different square than what you started it in, than that's a move.

Going with what you have here and still the horse example.

If you make the DC 20 ride check to dismount as a free action, could you then take a 5' step and attack?

You have moved 5' but you have not used a move action.


Uh, that was the very first question. That is what the whole debate is about.


CountofUndolpho, yes, you can occupy a space with someone else until you are done moving. So the idea that you can get off the horse, stay in the horses square, and the horse keep moving is completely legal.

CRB p194 wrote:

Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space:

Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.

Grand Lodge

Gauss wrote:

CountofUndolpho, yes, you can occupy a space with someone else until you are done moving. So the idea that you can get off the horse, stay in the horses square, and the horse keep moving is completely legal.

CRB p194 wrote:

Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space:

Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.

Except that dismounting is its own action, whether it's a free action or a move action. It's not part of a move. So if your stance is that you always dismount into your mount's square, then you're always "ending in an illegal space".

Which I don't believe is the case, otherwise you would also be mounting from your mount's square as it's the same action in reverse. Which can't be done because Mounting is its own action--not part of an action--so you would never be able to mount your horse as you can't be in its square. You have to be adjacent to your horse to mount, thus you also dismount into an adjacent square.


Claudekennilol, basically I agree with your interpretation, but the rules are mute. At some point, you enter the mount's squares. When that is done is never actually defined.


claudekennilol wrote:
Gauss wrote:

CountofUndolpho, yes, you can occupy a space with someone else until you are done moving. So the idea that you can get off the horse, stay in the horses square, and the horse keep moving is completely legal.

CRB p194 wrote:

Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space:

Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.

Except that dismounting is its own action, whether it's a free action or a move action. It's not part of a move. So if your stance is that you always dismount into your mount's square, then you're always "ending in an illegal space".

Which I don't believe is the case, otherwise you would also be mounting from your mount's square as it's the same action in reverse. Which can't be done because Mounting is its own action--not part of an action--so you would never be able to mount your horse as you can't be in its square. You have to be adjacent to your horse to mount, thus you also dismount into an adjacent square.

I bolded the part of your statement which has no rules support.

CRB p187 wrote:

Mount/Dismount a Steed

Mounting or dismounting a steed requires a move action. Fast Mount or Dismount: You can mount or dismount as a free action with a DC 20 Ride check. If you fail the check, mounting or dismounting is a move action instead. You can’t attempt a fast mount or fast dismount unless you can perform the mount or dismount as a move action in the current round.

Nowhere in the rules does it state you have to be adjacent to mount your mount.

Of course, common sense states that you must be close to your mount (at least adjacent) and not 50 feet away but nothing in the rules states this.

So, assuming that you must be at least adjacent is there anything preventing you from occupying the space and THEN mounting? Only the 'order' of the move actions.

So lets look at that:
Can you perform a free action during a move action? Yes. Because of that you can mount/dismount while still moving and before the rule that states you cannot occupy someone else's space kicks in.

CRB p181 wrote:
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally.

So, yes, you could dismount into the mount's space and then have the mount continue moving so that you are legally occupying that space.

You could also move to within your mount's space and then, as a free action attempt to mount your mount.


Fast Mount or Dismount as a Free action is a little different from usual as you can only attempt them if you have a full Move action still available in case of failure. Which would mean you are trying to end (or begin) a move action in an illegal square, this is usually not the done thing.

If you are dismounted you cannot occupy the mounts squares, merely pass through them. if you complete a "mount" move action you are counted as occupying all the squares the mount occupies; if you complete a dismount move action you cannot occupy the mounts squares.

You could even make a good case that the rules preclude going through your mounts squares:

PRD wrote:
Moving Through A Square

Which sets out the Rules for moving through occupied squares. You will note there is no mention of being able to move through a space occupied by a creature one size larger than yourself. The usual difference for a mount.


Your mount would count as your friend. Moving through its square is possible no matter the size.


A mount is a creature not a "friendly character".


Yet you can share its space when ever you want, but you can't walk through it?


Komoda wrote:

Yet you can share its space when ever you want, but you can't walk through it?

Where does it say that?

Do you mean

PRD wrote:
A horse (not a pony) is a Large creature and thus takes up a space 10 feet (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat.

Emphasis is mine.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
[wiley coyote] 5 foot steps out over a cliff. Nope! Can't move anywhere, sorry! [/qile coyote]

Hence why he stands there in the air for 6 secs because he has to wait til the next round before he can fall :-)

Grand Lodge

Redneckdevil wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
[wiley coyote] 5 foot steps out over a cliff. Nope! Can't move anywhere, sorry! [/qile coyote]
Hence why he stands there in the air for 6 secs because he has to wait til the next round before he can fall :-)

This is win.

Guass, I've got to disagree, just because you can take free actions as part of a move, doesn't mean you can mount or dismount during a move. Mounting is its own move action. If you make a check then you get to reduce it to a free action. But you can't be moving and attempt to mount in the hope that you make the check because you have to assume you're spending a move action to do it.

You may be able to convince a GM (and this would be a very sound house rule) that if you have a +19 ride, then you could always do it for free in combat, but without that it still costs a move action up front.

So since it takes a move action, it can't be done within a move action. Much as CountofUndolpho pointed out.


Claud the +19 House Rule would still be open to other modifiers such as Riding Bareback, poor weather conditions, spooked mount etc I would be leery of making it an auto succeed. The 'you must have a move action left' puts a specific limit on the action and, IMO, preserves the economy of actions in a round.


claudekennilol wrote:
Redneckdevil wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
[wiley coyote] 5 foot steps out over a cliff. Nope! Can't move anywhere, sorry! [/qile coyote]
Hence why he stands there in the air for 6 secs because he has to wait til the next round before he can fall :-)

This is win.

Guass, I've got to disagree, just because you can take free actions as part of a move, doesn't mean you can mount or dismount during a move. Mounting is its own move action. If you make a check then you get to reduce it to a free action. But you can't be moving and attempt to mount in the hope that you make the check because you have to assume you're spending a move action to do it.

You may be able to convince a GM (and this would be a very sound house rule) that if you have a +19 ride, then you could always do it for free in combat, but without that it still costs a move action up front.

So since it takes a move action, it can't be done within a move action. Much as CountofUndolpho pointed out.

A case to consider (outside of mounts, but a variation on the theme above)

If I have an ally 30' away down a narrow corridor, should I be able to take a double move action and move 30' past him? First move action puts me exactly in his square, and my first move action is over. Second move action puts me 30' past him (if I'm allowed to share his space at the end of my first move action, but not yet the end of my turn). This is, in essence, the same as move into horses space and try to mount as a free action, while still having the other half of my potential double move available to me.

A point to note. The rules don't say if you end a move action in an illegal square you get kicked back out. They say if you end your movement then you are kicked back out. So the question is, does your movement end at the end of your individual move actions? Or does your movement end at the end of your turn?


bbangerter wrote:
This is, in essence, the same as move into horses space and try to mount as a free action

But really it isn't because you're going through a Friendly Characters' square and just continuing movement; not stopping in a creatures' square and attempting a separate move equivalent action from that square, (regardless of whether you succeed on the ride check for Fast Mount).

The Rules actually Say:

PRD wrote:
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer.

Though I'm not sure if that supports your "point to note"

(emphasis is again mine)


CountofUndolpho,

How is a mount not a "friendly character?" It lets you in its squares whenever you want to climb on top of it and tell it what to do. There is no game definition that separates "characters" from "creatures." Of course it is going to let you pass through its squares. If you were fighting with a Orc on your side, would you not be able to go through its square because it is not a normal player character race?

Of course you can share the space outside of combat too. It just doesn't matter outside of combat.

While you might be RAW right about dismounting at the end of movement, it seems strange to me that you can fast mount > move > move, but not move > move > fast dismount, which is clearly easier. Again, I think you are right by RAW.

On another note, why can't a move action be done within a move action? Is there something somewhere that says that? I am sure I must be missing it. For example, can I not move 10', open a door, and finish my movement of 20'? I "know" I can't, but I can't seem to find anything anywhere that says so.

Either way, you absolutely can take move actions while moving on a mount:

CRB p202 wrote:
You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.


claudekennilol wrote:
Redneckdevil wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
[wiley coyote] 5 foot steps out over a cliff. Nope! Can't move anywhere, sorry! [/qile coyote]
Hence why he stands there in the air for 6 secs because he has to wait til the next round before he can fall :-)

This is win.

Guass, I've got to disagree, just because you can take free actions as part of a move, doesn't mean you can mount or dismount during a move. Mounting is its own move action. If you make a check then you get to reduce it to a free action. But you can't be moving and attempt to mount in the hope that you make the check because you have to assume you're spending a move action to do it.

You may be able to convince a GM (and this would be a very sound house rule) that if you have a +19 ride, then you could always do it for free in combat, but without that it still costs a move action up front.

So since it takes a move action, it can't be done within a move action. Much as CountofUndolpho pointed out.

Then you do not understand how mounting works. It is ALWAYS a free action if you try the check. It THEN becomes a Move action if you fail the check. That is how it is written.

Thus: You are moving, and you perform a free action works just fine.
Then it becomes a move action, doesn't mean you were not using a free action during your move action.

CRB p104 wrote:
Fast Mount or Dismount: You can attempt to mount or dismount from a mount of up to one size category larger than yourself as a free action, provided that you still have a move action available that round. If you fail the Ride check, mounting or dismounting is a move action. You can’t use fast mount or dismount on a mount more than one size category larger than yourself.

You would be making a house rule to prevent someone from doing this.


Gauss wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
Redneckdevil wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
[wiley coyote] 5 foot steps out over a cliff. Nope! Can't move anywhere, sorry! [/qile coyote]
Hence why he stands there in the air for 6 secs because he has to wait til the next round before he can fall :-)

This is win.

Guass, I've got to disagree, just because you can take free actions as part of a move, doesn't mean you can mount or dismount during a move. Mounting is its own move action. If you make a check then you get to reduce it to a free action. But you can't be moving and attempt to mount in the hope that you make the check because you have to assume you're spending a move action to do it.

You may be able to convince a GM (and this would be a very sound house rule) that if you have a +19 ride, then you could always do it for free in combat, but without that it still costs a move action up front.

So since it takes a move action, it can't be done within a move action. Much as CountofUndolpho pointed out.

Then you do not understand how mounting works. It is ALWAYS a free action if you try the check. It THEN becomes a Move action if you fail the check. That is how it is written.

Thus: You are moving, and you perform a free action works just fine.
Then it becomes a move action, doesn't mean you were not using a free action during your move action.

CRB p104 wrote:
Fast Mount or Dismount: You can attempt to mount or dismount from a mount of up to one size category larger than yourself as a free action, provided that you still have a move action available that round. If you fail the Ride check, mounting or dismounting is a move action. You can’t use fast mount or dismount on a mount more than one size category larger than yourself.
You would be making a house rule to prevent someone from doing this.

You have it backwards. It is always a move action. A skill check allows you to reduce it to a free action.

Sovereign Court

LazarX wrote:
Given that unless you have the particular feat, dimension door ends your turn, it shouldn't be t hat difficult. Most wizards I GM don't dimension door themselves into adjacent a threatened space, at least not on purpose.

So can or can't a wizard take a 5' step and then dimension door?

If they can, doesn't that break your previous argument of "you can't spend an action that results in movement and also 5' step in the same round"?

Grand Lodge

thorin001 wrote:
Gauss wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
Redneckdevil wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
[wiley coyote] 5 foot steps out over a cliff. Nope! Can't move anywhere, sorry! [/qile coyote]
Hence why he stands there in the air for 6 secs because he has to wait til the next round before he can fall :-)

This is win.

Guass, I've got to disagree, just because you can take free actions as part of a move, doesn't mean you can mount or dismount during a move. Mounting is its own move action. If you make a check then you get to reduce it to a free action. But you can't be moving and attempt to mount in the hope that you make the check because you have to assume you're spending a move action to do it.

You may be able to convince a GM (and this would be a very sound house rule) that if you have a +19 ride, then you could always do it for free in combat, but without that it still costs a move action up front.

So since it takes a move action, it can't be done within a move action. Much as CountofUndolpho pointed out.

Then you do not understand how mounting works. It is ALWAYS a free action if you try the check. It THEN becomes a Move action if you fail the check. That is how it is written.

Thus: You are moving, and you perform a free action works just fine.
Then it becomes a move action, doesn't mean you were not using a free action during your move action.

CRB p104 wrote:
Fast Mount or Dismount: You can attempt to mount or dismount from a mount of up to one size category larger than yourself as a free action, provided that you still have a move action available that round. If you fail the Ride check, mounting or dismounting is a move action. You can’t use fast mount or dismount on a mount more than one size category larger than yourself.
You would be making a house rule to prevent someone from doing this.
You have it backwards. It is always a move action. A skill check allows you to reduce it to a free action.

Hm, now that you put it that way I can see it either way

PRD, Combat wrote:

Mount/Dismount a Steed

Mounting or dismounting a steed requires a move action.

Fast Mount or Dismount: You can mount or dismount as a free action with a DC 20 Ride check. If you fail the check, mounting or dismounting is a move action instead. You can't attempt a fast mount or fast dismount unless you can perform the mount or dismount as a move action in the current round.

In the most recent wording, Fast Mount/Dismount doesn't have the word attempt. It is it's own action that is a free action that basically turns into a move action if you fail the check.


Komoda wrote:

CountofUndolpho,

How is a mount not a "friendly character?" It lets you in its squares whenever you want to climb on top of it and tell it what to do. There is no game definition that separates "characters" from "creatures." Of course it is going to let you pass through its squares. If you were fighting with a Orc on your side, would you not be able to go through its square because it is not a normal player character race?

Of course you can share the space outside of combat too. It just doesn't matter outside of combat.

While you might be RAW right about dismounting at the end of movement, it seems strange to me that you can fast mount > move > move, but not move > move > fast dismount, which is clearly easier. Again, I think you are right by RAW.

On another note, why can't a move action be done within a move action? Is there something somewhere that says that? I am sure I must be missing it. For example, can I not move 10', open a door, and finish my movement of 20'? I "know" I can't, but I can't seem to find anything anywhere that says so.

Either way, you absolutely can take move actions while moving on a mount:

CRB p202 wrote:
You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.

Horses don't have character levels, classes or abilities so I don't see why you would think of them as characters, they are an animal. There are numerous other game definitions that separate characters from creatures.

For example Creature Type: Animal

Some actions can be taken in the midst of other actions these are noted in their descriptions. Otherwise as stated a Combat round consists of a Movement action and a Standard Action and the variations thereon.
Action Types

No one has said at any point that you can't take movement actions whilst mounted that is a Strawman. Some Ride skills take movement actions.

@thorin001 that's how it reads to me too.


The Human Diversion wrote:


So can or can't a wizard take a 5' step and then dimension door?

If they can, doesn't that break your previous argument of "you can't spend an action that results in movement and also 5' step in the same round"?

Yes they can the spell moves you, you don't move yourself via a movement action.


CountofUndolpho wrote:

Horses don't have character levels, classes or abilities so I don't see why you would think of them as characters, they are an animal. There are numerous other game definitions that separate characters from creatures.
For example Creature Type: Animal

Human Wizard

Creature Type: Humanoid

Using this classification for what is a character, apparently nothing is a character.

In the rules the word character is used to define anything that is normally able to act of its own volition.
Golems are characters.
Dragons are characters.
Oozes are characters.
An animated broom is a character.
As is the horse, human wizard controlled by the player (PC), rogue controlled by the DM (NPC).

MOST everything is an NPC (non-player CHARACTER) - it doesn't matter what type of creature it is.


Someone did say that you can't dismount in the middle of the horse's movement because dismounting is a move action.

Claudekennilol wrote:

You may be able to convince a GM (and this would be a very sound house rule) that if you have a +19 ride, then you could always do it for free in combat, but without that it still costs a move action up front.

So since it takes a move action, it can't be done within a move action. Much as CountofUndolpho pointed out.

Looking back at it now, I might have misunderstood the context. It wasn't a Strawman argument.

It looks like the statement fro Claude was a False Cause. He might be right that you can't use the Fast Dismount option because you don't have a move action left, but not because it takes place in the middle of a move action.

Horses have HD which are basically equal to character levels. Of course they have abilities. I know they have Scent without looking it up.

Either way, we are not limited to horses. What makes a being on your side of combat a "friendly character?" Are you really going to say that it is class levels or creature type? Would you preclude a Balor, Astral Deva, Animated Object, Centaur, Dog, Dryad, Summoned Elemental, etc.?


Under Humanoid it states "d8 Hit Die, or by character class"

bbangeerter wrote:
In the rules the word character is used to define anything that is normally able to act of its own volition.

Where?

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