Dismount and 5' step?


Rules Questions

51 to 100 of 217 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>
Liberty's Edge

Yes. You're missing the rule that you take an adjacent square when you dismount.


Howie23 wrote:
Yes. You're missing the rule that you take an adjacent square when you dismount.

Sorry - I couldn't find it. Where is that?

Liberty's Edge

Ride skill.


Howie23 wrote:
Ride skill.

I don't mean to be dense here but I honestly don't see it.

Ride Skill

I did a search for "adjacent" and found nothing. I searched for "square" and found nothing. I searched for "dismount" and found it seven times, none of which say that you move to another space. Can you point out where it is?


Here it is on the Paizo site: Ride Skill and I don't see anything there, either.


[wiley coyote] 5 foot steps out over a cliff. Nope! Can't move anywhere, sorry! [/qile coyote]


BigNorseWolf wrote:
[wiley coyote] 5 foot steps out over a cliff. Nope! Can't move anywhere, sorry! [/qile coyote]

He can't move. That doesn't mean that others can't move him.


MeanMutton wrote:
Howie23 wrote:
Ride skill.

I don't mean to be dense here but I honestly don't see it.

Ride Skill

I did a search for "adjacent" and found nothing. I searched for "square" and found nothing. I searched for "dismount" and found it seven times, none of which say that you move to another space. Can you point out where it is?

Under the mounted combat rules in the combat chapter

A horse (not a pony) is a Large creature and thus takes up a space 10 feet (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat.

So if you are in the squares next to your horse, and you mount, you are now in the squares of your horse. You've moved unless the horse started in your square.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
Howie23 wrote:
Ride skill.

I don't mean to be dense here but I honestly don't see it.

Ride Skill

I did a search for "adjacent" and found nothing. I searched for "square" and found nothing. I searched for "dismount" and found it seven times, none of which say that you move to another space. Can you point out where it is?

A horse (not a pony) is a Large creature and thus takes up a space 10 feet (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat.

So if you are in the squares next to your horse, and you mount, you are now in the squares of your horse. You've moved unless the horse started in your square.

Are those quotes or your interpretations? If they're quotes, where are you quoting from?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

After giving it some though, I think I disagree with LazarX. I do not think dismounting prohibits you from taking a 5-foot step in the same round, not do I think it counts as movement in the same sense that taking a move action to move does.


MeanMutton wrote:
Gauss wrote:
LazarX, going by your logic ("moving vertically off the mount and horizontally to the nearest square adjacent to the mount") teleportation counts as movement and thus would prevent 5' steps.

That's completely correct. If you teleport then you do not get a 5' move. You point this out as if it's a "gotcha" but it's clearly evident from the rules and something that I would think isn't controversial.

Gauss wrote:


People are ignoring the other qualifiers in the 5' step rules which indicate that the movement that prevents a 5' step is part of a "move" move action or a full-round action that involves moving.

The rule against a 5' step is not 'if you travel any distance via any means'.

The rule we're talking about is this: "You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance."

So it is almost explicitly what you said it is not.

And you are ignoring the rest of the rules (that I quoted) which all put that single line into context. You are taking that one line out of context and that is the problem.

The context is: if you use a "Move" move action or a Full-round action that includes movement then you cannot also take a 5' step.


I think the rules are unclear on this, and other cases of pseudo-movement. FAQed for you.

Liberty's Edge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
Howie23 wrote:
Ride skill.

I don't mean to be dense here but I honestly don't see it.

Ride Skill

I did a search for "adjacent" and found nothing. I searched for "square" and found nothing. I searched for "dismount" and found it seven times, none of which say that you move to another space. Can you point out where it is?

Under the mounted combat rules in the combat chapter

A horse (not a pony) is a Large creature and thus takes up a space 10 feet (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat.

So if you are in the squares next to your horse, and you mount, you are now in the squares of your horse. You've moved unless the horse started in your square.

Thx BNW. Sorry for the misdirection mutton.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:

After giving it some though, I think I disagree with LazarX.

Quick! Stop the presses at the Daily Bugle!

Ravingdork wrote:
I do not think dismounting prohibits you from taking a 5-foot step in the same round, not do I think it counts as movement in the same sense that taking a move action to move does.

There is no way that you can argue that dismounting isn't a form of movement. You get off a horse, you move down. You remove yourself from a mount... that's movement.


what if you quick dismount, as a free action, you still have all your actions left.
Also the Withdraw action is the same in all but name as a 5', and by using the standard action as move action.
using the action economy i don't see why not? Besides if you do end up flanking, like you proposed then the guy can shift, and get out of flanking(most likely), then you have to use a move action to get your horse to move, and you then take your 5'. which would mean that only your horse would be able to attack that round.
action economy:
5' -> move action mount (no standard)
dismount -> move or 5' instead of standard
quick dismount(free) -> 5' -> attack
however you can Not:
attack -> 5' -> mount
because to mount you need a viable move action left

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abrir wrote:

what if you quick dismount, as a free action, you still have all your actions left.

You've still moved. You may have your swift, standard, and move equivalent actions available, but you're still not eligible for a 5 foot adjustment


okay, so the real answer here is to get really good at acrobatics, Handle Animal, and Ride to accomplish the insta flank+1 attack each from you and your mount.
Though if you provoke the AoO before getting off your mount you can do it, but only your horse could attack that round, but would be ready for the rest of the battle, against that target/line of units with only ride, and 1 rank in handle animal(if class skill)
I Approve


1 person marked this as a favorite.
LazarX wrote:


There is no way that you can argue that dismounting isn't a form of movement. You get off a horse, you move down. You remove yourself from a mount... that's movement.

So is standing up from prone. Casting a spell with somatic components. Swinging a sword. Retrieving an item from your pack. Falling into a pit. Etc.

Almost anything a character does is movement by the general definition of it. None of those however are movement in the specific pathfinder definition of movement.

Movement in pathfinder is one of walking, running, hustling, flying, swimming, burrowing. That is one of the movement modes.

Teleporting is not pathfinder specific movement.
Dismounting is not pathfinder specific movement.


^^^ Yup.


Except LazarX, as I have already shown, the 5'step restriction is clearly intended to be applied to "Move" move actions and to Full actions that involve moving. Not to something like teleporting or dismounting. The line you and a couple others keep quoting is being taken out of context.


bbangerter wrote:
Dismounting is not pathfinder specific movement.

The thing is we don't have a pathfinder specific definition of movement. So the definition most people stick to is -you were in that square THERE now you're in this square HERE= movement- .


Yes we do. If you're using speed (fly, run, climb, swim, etc) for your action, you're moving.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Yes we do. If you're using speed (fly, run, climb, swim, etc) for your action, you're moving.

Would the two definitions vary at any point?


Gauss wrote:
Except LazarX, as I have already shown, the 5'step restriction is clearly intended to be applied to "Move" move actions and to Full actions that involve moving. Not to something like teleporting or dismounting. The line you and a couple others keep quoting is being taken out of context.

No - the five foot move rules are clearly designed so that you can move exactly five feet on your turn regardless of what else you're doing. They're also very clear in that they never, ever want that five foot step to result in more than five feet of movement to avoid cheese like dismount+five foot move = your horse is a flanking buddy and dismount + five foot move = scout gets full attack with sneak attack.

It's weird to me that you look at a rule in the book, see other rules in the book that do something similar but different and then assume that because the other rules exist that the explicit, clear rule in the book somehow doesn't count since it's not what the authors "clearly intended".


BigNorseWolf wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
Howie23 wrote:
Ride skill.

I don't mean to be dense here but I honestly don't see it.

Ride Skill

I did a search for "adjacent" and found nothing. I searched for "square" and found nothing. I searched for "dismount" and found it seven times, none of which say that you move to another space. Can you point out where it is?

Under the mounted combat rules in the combat chapter

A horse (not a pony) is a Large creature and thus takes up a space 10 feet (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat.

So if you are in the squares next to your horse, and you mount, you are now in the squares of your horse. You've moved unless the horse started in your square.

Well, this rule clearly and unambiguously proves that if you mount your horse from an adjacent square that counts as "you've moved". Which is the exact language called out under 5-foot movement for conditions which prohibit taking a 5-foot movement.

Are we supposed to assume now that mounting a creature in an adjacent square counts as "you've moved" but dismounting into an adjacent square does not?

Side note - it shows that you can mount from an adjacent square but doesn't say that dismounting into an adjacent square is allowed. I'd imagine the two items should be consistent. Either mount/dismount a creature in your square (and not count as having moved) or mount/dismount a creature in an adjacent square (and count as having moved).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm going to say no:

XXXX
XHHX
XHHX
XPXX

Fast mount
Fast dismount

XXXP
XHHX
XHHX
XXXX

Zero movement used, then 5 foot step.

Yeah no.


All Free Actions have their limits, adjudicated by the GM. I would allow for the 5' step and either fast mount or dismount. I would not allow for both. I also would not allow a player to use this with the intent to flank with his or her own mount.

Then again, if the mount is intelligent, if the rider fast dismounts and the mount takes the 5' step, flanking could be in effect.

I don't know that any of it really bothers me.


Komoda wrote:
Then again, if the mount is intelligent, if the rider fast dismounts and the mount takes the 5' step, flanking could be in effect.

The mount cannot take a 5' Step - it just moved to a square adjacent to the enemy so that movement prevents taking a 5' Step. Unless you mean take a 5' Step in the following round, which would be fine, but rider could just take his own 5' Step in the following round too, and besides, the OP was looking for a way to get flanking in the same round that his mount moved into position without having to wait until the following round.

One way that would not allow the rider to effectively get two 5' Steps in the same round (one for dismounting 5 feet away, the second for actually taking a 5' Step) would be dismount before the mount is finished moving (with an appropriate Ride check) and have the mount finish its movement in a square that gives flanking to whatever square the rider dismounted in. Of course, this probably requires an intelligent mount and also requires that the mount has enough movement to get behind the enemy.


Mean, this is the quoted part

A horse (not a pony) is a Large creature and thus takes up a space 10 feet (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
There is no way that you can argue that dismounting isn't a form of movement. You get off a horse, you move down. You remove yourself from a mount... that's movement.

Quite right. However, I could argue that, in this context, when the game refers to "movement" it is referring to "a move action made to move," not movement as we understand it in the English language. At its heart, it's just another game terminology versus modern English debate, where we argue about where we draw the line between the two.

I've been here long enough and have seen enough of these kinds of threads to understand that implicitly.

EDIT: It looks like bbangerter sorta' ninja'd me on this one.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
LazarX wrote:
There is no way that you can argue that dismounting isn't a form of movement. You get off a horse, you move down. You remove yourself from a mount... that's movement.

Quite right. However, I could argue that, in this context, when the game refers to "movement" it is referring to "a move action made to move," not movement as we understand it in the English language. At its heart, it's just another game terminology versus modern English debate, where we argue about where we draw the line between the two.

I've been here long enough and have seen enough of these kinds of threads to understand that implicitly.

EDIT: It looks like bbangerter sorta' ninja'd me on this one.

You could argue that.... you can also argue that the moon is made of green cheese. Argument itself does not make a premise valid.

If you by your own actions, now occupy a different position in 3d space than you did before, than it's movement, plain and simple.


MeanMutton wrote:
Gauss wrote:
Except LazarX, as I have already shown, the 5'step restriction is clearly intended to be applied to "Move" move actions and to Full actions that involve moving. Not to something like teleporting or dismounting. The line you and a couple others keep quoting is being taken out of context.

No - the five foot move rules are clearly designed so that you can move exactly five feet on your turn regardless of what else you're doing. They're also very clear in that they never, ever want that five foot step to result in more than five feet of movement to avoid cheese like dismount+five foot move = your horse is a flanking buddy and dismount + five foot move = scout gets full attack with sneak attack.

It's weird to me that you look at a rule in the book, see other rules in the book that do something similar but different and then assume that because the other rules exist that the explicit, clear rule in the book somehow doesn't count since it's not what the authors "clearly intended".

Pathfinder is not written in a clear, concise manner. There are rules spread out all over the place. This is one of them. Thus, by looking at the context we can better understand the rule. The context is in reference to actions such as the "Move" move action and Full-round actions that move you a distance (such as Charge).

You defining it as 'cheese' is just your opinion. To me it is not cheese and people I have played with do not consider dismounting as a form of movement.

It makes even less sense that you would restrict a person who teleports from taking a 5' step. When you take that rule out of context you wind up with such inconsistencies.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gauss wrote:


It makes even less sense that you would restrict a person who teleports from taking a 5' step. When you take that rule out of context you wind up with such inconsistencies.

You keep saying that as an a priori statement without saying why such a ruling would be inconsistent, where it would actually be VERY consistent with the general rule that movement rules out making 5 foot adjustments (the proper name we should be using) in the same turn.


DM_Blake, If the mount moves with you on it, you can't 5' step anyway.

PRD wrote:
Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.

Riding a mount that is moving is clearly movement. I never imagined this question involved the idea that the character could move on a mount and 5' step in the same round. That, I believe, is clearly against the rules.

I meant starting the round adjacent to a medium enemy:

SSES
SMMS
SMMS
SSSS

Becomes:

MMEC
MMSS
SSSS
SSSS

S = Space
M = Mount
E = Enemy
C = Character (on mount in the first set)

Character dismounts, mount 5' steps, flanking ensues.

Grand Lodge

DM_Blake wrote:
Komoda wrote:
Then again, if the mount is intelligent, if the rider fast dismounts and the mount takes the 5' step, flanking could be in effect.
One way that would not allow the rider to effectively get two 5' Steps in the same round (one for dismounting 5 feet away, the second for actually taking a 5' Step) would be dismount before the mount is finished moving (with an appropriate Ride check) and have the mount finish its movement in a square that gives flanking to whatever square the rider dismounted in. Of course, this probably requires an intelligent mount and also requires that the mount has enough movement to get behind the enemy.

This was more of a thought exercise that apparently was more complicated than I thought it was going to be. If I were the GM I wouldn't allow someone to do it.

That being said, can you dismount in the middle of the mount's movement?


I have to agree with Gauss about casting a spell and taking a 5' step. I can't imagine that teleport would ever count as movement any more than being the recipient of a Ki Throw that was triggered because of an AoO that one provokes on their turn. You could be thrown 15' away, diagonally. I would absolutely allow for a 5' step afterwards.

Before everyone says action economy would not allow it, standing up from prone can be done as a free action with feats/abilities.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
claudekennilol wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
Komoda wrote:
Then again, if the mount is intelligent, if the rider fast dismounts and the mount takes the 5' step, flanking could be in effect.
One way that would not allow the rider to effectively get two 5' Steps in the same round (one for dismounting 5 feet away, the second for actually taking a 5' Step) would be dismount before the mount is finished moving (with an appropriate Ride check) and have the mount finish its movement in a square that gives flanking to whatever square the rider dismounted in. Of course, this probably requires an intelligent mount and also requires that the mount has enough movement to get behind the enemy.

This was more of a thought exercise that apparently was more complicated than I thought it was going to be. If I were the GM I wouldn't allow someone to do it.

That being said, can you dismount in the middle of the mount's movement?

Have you tried getting off of a moving horse? It's obviously doable, but unless you're lucky, or very good, you can put yourself in a world of hurt. Ride and Acrobatic checks would be in order here. otherwise I'd gauge at it winding up taking 1d6 damage per 10 foot of horse's movement speed and winding up prone.


You can dismount anytime you want as a move action, and as a free action with a DC 20.


There are no rules for anything of that nature LazarX. I understand your point, but these are combat speeds, not full out running. A monk can eventually run faster than a horse but has no trouble stopping on a dime. Real world physics do not apply.


LazarX wrote:
Gauss wrote:


It makes even less sense that you would restrict a person who teleports from taking a 5' step. When you take that rule out of context you wind up with such inconsistencies.
You keep saying that as an a priori statement without saying why such a ruling would be inconsistent, where it would actually be VERY consistent with the general rule that movement rules out making 5 foot adjustments (the proper name we should be using) in the same turn.

Except that the rule doesn't unless you read it out of context.

In the 15 or so years of 3.X/PF I have never seen someone say that you cannot 5' step before/after casting a teleportation spell.

5' step is designed to enable you to move 5' when you take no other movement related action (such as a "Move" move action or a Full-round action that involves movement). Those actions that allow you to move are specifically stated as such.

Short of a FAQ I don't think people will reach a consensus.
The questions here are:
Is dismounting a form of movement and thus prevent a 5' step?
Does teleporting or some other spell that changes your location prevent a 5' step?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Komoda wrote:

I have to agree with Gauss about casting a spell and taking a 5' step. I can't imagine that teleport would ever count as movement any more than being the recipient of a Ki Throw that was triggered because of an AoO that one provokes on their turn. You could be thrown 15' away, diagonally. I would absolutely allow for a 5' step afterwards.

Before everyone says action economy would not allow it, standing up from prone can be done as a free action with feats/abilities.

And it takes feats and abilities to do it... otherwise it's NOT a free action.


Komoda wrote:
Riding a mount that is moving is clearly movement. I never imagined this question involved the idea that the character could move on a mount and 5' step in the same round. That, I believe, is clearly against the rules.

+1 You can't even take a move action to move after a full mounted move and dismount.

I was assuming it was all to be on the turn after moving into position.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gauss wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Gauss wrote:


It makes even less sense that you would restrict a person who teleports from taking a 5' step. When you take that rule out of context you wind up with such inconsistencies.
You keep saying that as an a priori statement without saying why such a ruling would be inconsistent, where it would actually be VERY consistent with the general rule that movement rules out making 5 foot adjustments (the proper name we should be using) in the same turn.

Except that the rule doesn't unless you read it out of context.

In the 15 or so years of 3.X/PF I have never seen someone say that you cannot 5' step before/after casting a teleportation spell.

In that same period, I've yet to see anyone try to do so.


LazarX wrote:
Gauss wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Gauss wrote:


It makes even less sense that you would restrict a person who teleports from taking a 5' step. When you take that rule out of context you wind up with such inconsistencies.
You keep saying that as an a priori statement without saying why such a ruling would be inconsistent, where it would actually be VERY consistent with the general rule that movement rules out making 5 foot adjustments (the proper name we should be using) in the same turn.

Except that the rule doesn't unless you read it out of context.

In the 15 or so years of 3.X/PF I have never seen someone say that you cannot 5' step before/after casting a teleportation spell.

In that same period, I've yet to see anyone try to do so.

Wow, so you have never seen a Wizard 5'step away from an enemy before casting Dimension Door? That is...difficult to believe.


LazarX wrote:
Komoda wrote:

I have to agree with Gauss about casting a spell and taking a 5' step. I can't imagine that teleport would ever count as movement any more than being the recipient of a Ki Throw that was triggered because of an AoO that one provokes on their turn. You could be thrown 15' away, diagonally. I would absolutely allow for a 5' step afterwards.

Before everyone says action economy would not allow it, standing up from prone can be done as a free action with feats/abilities.

And it takes feats and abilities to do it... otherwise it's NOT a free action.

Yet, clearly it is possible to "move" 15' without moving and still have a 5' step on your turn.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gauss wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Gauss wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Gauss wrote:


It makes even less sense that you would restrict a person who teleports from taking a 5' step. When you take that rule out of context you wind up with such inconsistencies.
You keep saying that as an a priori statement without saying why such a ruling would be inconsistent, where it would actually be VERY consistent with the general rule that movement rules out making 5 foot adjustments (the proper name we should be using) in the same turn.

Except that the rule doesn't unless you read it out of context.

In the 15 or so years of 3.X/PF I have never seen someone say that you cannot 5' step before/after casting a teleportation spell.

In that same period, I've yet to see anyone try to do so.
Wow, so you have never seen a Wizard 5'step away from an enemy before casting Dimension Door? That is...difficult to believe.

Given that unless you have the particular feat, dimension door ends your turn, it shouldn't be t hat difficult. Most wizards I GM don't dimension door themselves into adjacent a threatened space, at least not on purpose.


Well maybe he's so good that the enemies never get within 5ft of the wizard, or the wizard just cast defensively and didn't care?


MeanMutton wrote:

You know - the more I think about it, the more I think we're getting this entire thing wrong and the entire thing is moot. Why are we assuming that dismounting puts you in a different square instead of temporarily sharing the same square with your mount? Seems like it should be the same square and then you could either 5' move out or use your move action to move out. If you didn't have a move action, you'd follow the "accidentally ending your movement in an illegal space" rule.

Am I missing a rule here?

I think this may be right. If we view it this way, is there any question at all how the rules work?


I do not view it that way. Mounting and Dismounting do not require movement measured in distance (that is separate from the debate of "is it a move") and therefore doe not require movement (again, distance) to leave the mount's squares ore movement (again, distance) to enter the mount's squares.

Following MeanMutton's interpretation above, we would be force to spend 5' of movement to mount or dismount. I think it is clear that isn't the case as there is no mention anywhere of said actions being required.

Grand Lodge

Fergie wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:

You know - the more I think about it, the more I think we're getting this entire thing wrong and the entire thing is moot. Why are we assuming that dismounting puts you in a different square instead of temporarily sharing the same square with your mount? Seems like it should be the same square and then you could either 5' move out or use your move action to move out. If you didn't have a move action, you'd follow the "accidentally ending your movement in an illegal space" rule.

Am I missing a rule here?

I think this may be right. If we view it this way, is there any question at all how the rules work?

If this is how you dismount, then are you also supposed to mount from the same square? You can't end up in a square that is already occupied. I understand what you're trying to say, but I just don't think it's that simple.

51 to 100 of 217 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Dismount and 5' step? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.