PFS Alchemist and Alchemy Crafting


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Last night while playing a scenario, I was told that my alchemist could actually craft his own alchemical items (Alkali Flask, Alchemist Fire, etc) at a reduced cost even in Society play. I have searched a bit for this information and all the particulars about it, but I am having trouble locating it.

Any tips where I can find it? I will reread the Alchemist portion of the Adv Players Guide, but I don't recall seeing it there.


Typically crafting is done at 1/3 the price of purchasing items. Did they mean at even a MORE reduced rate?


No, 1/3 was the quoted amount. I just had never heard that crafting was available in Society play. He mentioned it was only for Alchemical items...but under: Craft I found some information on it. And it seems I can only craft 1 item per week? Maybe an extra if I am lucky with the DC. Seems...barely worth it.


I think there are feats that allow you to craft faster, and greater quantity of items at the same time. But in general, crafting items in game has always been something of a "downtime" activity.

I am not as familiar with PFS rules :( so I don't know exactly what is left out of that play style.


Krell44 wrote:
No, 1/3 was the quoted amount. I just had never heard that crafting was available in Society play. He mentioned it was only for Alchemical items...but under: Craft I found some information on it. And it seems I can only craft 1 item per week? Maybe an extra if I am lucky with the DC. Seems...barely worth it.

As I understand it, in PFS an arbitrary amount of time passes between scenarios. Craft as much as you please. I'll have some rework to do on my alchemist if that isn't true. Downtime crafting it's simplest to Take 10 on your crafting rolls so you can just write down what you've done and show it to the GM at the next scenario.

You won't likely be able to do much during sessions - maybe whip something appropriate up if there's a boat trip or something between briefing and actual meeting.

4/5

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In general, crafting items is not allowed in PFS (because of the unlimited downtime between scenarios). Specific exceptions are in the PFS FAQ section.

In particular, here are the alchemist crafting rules and the rule for crafting alchemical cartriges.

Since this is a PFS specific rule question, you'll have better luck in the PFS forum (flagging to move the thread).

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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Krell44 wrote:
Maybe an extra if I am lucky with the DC. Seems...barely worth it.

3 for the price of 1 adds up.

Especially when crafting things like Artokus's Fire.

Grand Lodge 2/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Artokus's is Mythic, so a no go in PFS, unfortunately. :(

There's not out-of-session limit to the number of items. Basically, if you're an Alchemist (or Investigator) with a single rank of craft: alchemy, all items with an appropriate craft DC can be bought for 1/3 the usual price between adventures. (Gunslingers with the skill get disvounted alchemical cartridges too.)

Theoretically you can use the full crafting rules during an adventure, but very few scenarios have that much down time built into them.

You can also use the Spontaneous Alchemy rules from the Alchemy Manual; but you need to have the individual ingredients pre-purchased (you cannot just dump gp), and it actually works out more expensive. (It just allows you to rapidly gain the right tool for the job, if you can't just buy it from a store.)


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Darrell Impey UK wrote:

Artokus's is Mythic, so a no go in PFS, unfortunately. :(

I don't have the Alchemy Manual, so I'm not 100% sure, but I think Artokus's is legal:

Additional Resources wrote:
The mythic alchemical items on pages 26-27 are legal, however the mythic section of each is not available for PFS play

Grand Lodge 2/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Sorry, yep, you're right.

4/5

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Nefreet wrote:
Krell44 wrote:
Maybe an extra if I am lucky with the DC. Seems...barely worth it.

3 for the price of 1 adds up.

Especially when crafting things like Artokus's Fire.

This... is an incredibly cool item that I never knew about. Thank you, my alchemist is going to be very happy she can craft these.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Game Master wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Krell44 wrote:
Maybe an extra if I am lucky with the DC. Seems...barely worth it.

3 for the price of 1 adds up.

Especially when crafting things like Artokus's Fire.

This... is an incredibly cool item that I never knew about. Thank you, my alchemist is going to be very happy she can craft these.

Just be VERY aware that the mythic versus regular bits. It is epically awesome but the mythic stuff makes it more so. I like use it and holy water in a Hybridizatiin Funnel. 2d6 + 2d4 is scary to something's. Particularly when you're using it PLUS explosive missile PLUS a large arrow. (grenadier alchemist)

4/5

Your alchemist sounds a lot like mine... :3

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Game Master wrote:
Your alchemist sounds a lot like mine... :3

If I could get another source of strength bonus I think I could make one of my local GMs cry.. He loathes Runt.

Of course, I'm at max capacity of my 2 efficient quivers and haversack, so I'm saving up for a +4 Strngth Belt and a bag of holding and wand of unseen servant.

(Casts unseen Servant in bag)
Runt: Gimme parcels T-18, and T-32
US: Yes Master..
Unloads three bales of arrows and three dozen vials of Holy Water
Runt: "What? I get a discount in Nerosyam and we need to outfit an army, I got the archers covered.."

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

You probably use Dye Arrows for extended Touch range, too, right?

Grand Lodge 4/5

Nefreet wrote:
You probably use Dye Arrows for extended Touch range, too, right?

Actually no. I am of the opinion you have to do damage to trigger explosive missile. (Which sucks for tanglefoot bomb arrows but.. if I'm going to go one way on damage triggers..I have to go for all versions of the bomb)

I do however use them to tick off bad guys..cause nothing irks a macho bad guy getting his face dyed bright vivid pink.

I might stress test the rules, using the Grenadier archetype to the max, but I don't go total cheese. I don't use blankfinger paste to add poison to my arrows, though TECHNICALLY I could. I don't create 'megabombs' out of Focusing flasks + hybridized Acid/Artoku's fire for hideous splash damage (3d6 acid + 6d6 fire + Int). I don't pull the 'abundant ammo' wand trick for all the alchemical arrows I use.


What's the list of viable items that can be crafted, though? Any alchemical item published by Paizo for Pathfinder that has has a craft alchemy DC?
(although I'd assume with the exception of poisons, since allowed poisons are listed separately for PFS)

3/5 5/5

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If it's in additional resources and has a craft alchemy DC, you can craft it (as long as you have the source of course).

1/5

Nefreet wrote:
You probably use Dye Arrows for extended Touch range, too, right?

I was confused by this statement. The dye arrow does no damage but does use Touch AC. Why are you phrasing the question in this manner?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

N N 959 wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
You probably use Dye Arrows for extended Touch range, too, right?
I was confused by this statement. The dye arrow does no damage but does use Touch AC. Why are you phrasing the question in this manner?

Grenadier archetype + Explosive Missile discovery + Dye Arrow

(and, I imagine, whatever that funnel is that combines two splash weapons together)

Instead of tossing a Bomb with a 20ft increment, you shoot a Dye Arrow with a 110ft increment.

- still targets Touch AC
- same action as throwing a Bomb
- arrow does Bomb damage
- arrow can also be imbued with an Alchemical Weapon (ala Grenadier) for the cost of an extra move (or swift) action

There's an Alchemist in our area that uses this combo to great effect.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Nefreet wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
You probably use Dye Arrows for extended Touch range, too, right?
I was confused by this statement. The dye arrow does no damage but does use Touch AC. Why are you phrasing the question in this manner?

Grenadier archetype + Explosive Missile discovery + Dye Arrow

(and, I imagine, whatever that funnel is that combines two splash weapons together)

Instead of tossing a Bomb with a 20ft increment, you shoot a Dye Arrow with a 110ft increment.

- still targets Touch AC
- same action as throwing a Bomb
- arrow does Bomb damage
- arrow can also be imbued with an Alchemical Weapon (ala Grenadier) for the cost of an extra move (or swift) action

There's an Alchemist in our area that uses this combo to great effect.

Warning: expect table variance.

I had on GM tell me that while imbuing was a move or swift action, that it was still a move action to pull the alchemical weapon that I was imbuing.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

Tiefling prehensile tail to pull acid flask, move to attach to arrow, then standard to fire arrow as explosive missile. Works like a charm.

1/5

Had this come up last night so I want to be sure I'm clear on this, only alchemists and investigators can craft alchemical items or can anyone with craft(alchemy) do so?

Grand Lodge 4/5

In PFS, only Alchemists and Investigators can craft alchemical items. Everyone else has to purchase them at full price.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Only those with class features can do it (poisoner Rogues and a few others are covered as well).

But not just anyone.

Dark Archive 2/5

I tried to locate a ruling that allowed Investigators to use Alchemy to make items. Where did you guys find that?

Scarab Sages

DubiousYak wrote:
I tried to locate a ruling that allowed Investigators to use Alchemy to make items. Where did you guys find that?

Pretty sure it's the Alchemy Class Feature that gives this function.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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DubiousYak wrote:
I tried to locate a ruling that allowed Investigators to use Alchemy to make items. Where did you guys find that?

Here you go.

Dark Archive 2/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
DubiousYak wrote:
I tried to locate a ruling that allowed Investigators to use Alchemy to make items. Where did you guys find that?
Here you go.

Thanks Jeff, just knowing that exists is really helpful! Thanks!

Dark Archive 3/5

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Nefreet wrote:
There's an Alchemist in our area that uses this combo to great effect.

Shhh, my darlink. Be tellink them all Nisha's sekrits, then vere vill Nisha be? Nisha vould be exposed! Just think what happeninks might be if they find out Great Grandmama is succubus! Oopsie... Nisha is sayink too much.

But this much is okay. Nisha still have plenty sekrits hidden in her bodice. Great Grandmama Mishka teach Nisha, always have ace in hole. We vill forgive you, my darlinks, this time.

1/5

Nefreet wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
You probably use Dye Arrows for extended Touch range, too, right?
I was confused by this statement. The dye arrow does no damage but does use Touch AC. Why are you phrasing the question in this manner?

Grenadier archetype + Explosive Missile discovery + Dye Arrow

(and, I imagine, whatever that funnel is that combines two splash weapons together)

Instead of tossing a Bomb with a 20ft increment, you shoot a Dye Arrow with a 110ft increment.

- still targets Touch AC
- same action as throwing a Bomb
- arrow does Bomb damage
- arrow can also be imbued with an Alchemical Weapon (ala Grenadier) for the cost of an extra move (or swift) action

There's an Alchemist in our area that uses this combo to great effect.

There's no way I'd allow that to work without a FAQ stating this is intended.

I'm betting dollars to donuts that there was no Touch AC attack arrow in the Core books when the Grenadier AT and the Explosive Missile Discovery were authored. As such, there's no way I'd allow any Touch AC arrow that does no damage to work with those abilities barring a FAQ which explicitly allows it.

As a data point, an acid bolt does not target Touch AC.

IMO, this is a loophole, like the double dex damage for the pistolero. i seriously doubt that the authors of these feats wanted these abilities to be used on dye or tanglefoot arrows.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

N N 959 wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
You probably use Dye Arrows for extended Touch range, too, right?
I was confused by this statement. The dye arrow does no damage but does use Touch AC. Why are you phrasing the question in this manner?

Grenadier archetype + Explosive Missile discovery + Dye Arrow

(and, I imagine, whatever that funnel is that combines two splash weapons together)

Instead of tossing a Bomb with a 20ft increment, you shoot a Dye Arrow with a 110ft increment.

- still targets Touch AC
- same action as throwing a Bomb
- arrow does Bomb damage
- arrow can also be imbued with an Alchemical Weapon (ala Grenadier) for the cost of an extra move (or swift) action

There's an Alchemist in our area that uses this combo to great effect.

There's no way I'd allow that to work without a FAQ stating this is intended.

I'm betting dollars to donuts that there was no Touch AC attack arrow in the Core books when the Grenadier AT and the Explosive Missile Discovery were authored. As such, there's no way I'd allow any Touch AC arrow that does no damage to work with those abilities barring a FAQ which explicitly allows it.

As a data point, an acid bolt does not target Touch AC.

IMO, this is a loophole, like the double dex damage for the pistolero. i seriously doubt that the authors of these feats wanted these abilities to be used on dye or tanglefoot arrows.

Then you'd be going against the "run by RAW" part of PFS. Just because it wasn't intended doesn't mean it's against the rules.

These rules are written by several dozen people (including freelancers who write supplements) over more than five years now. The game is full of consequences that weren't originally intended, and that's fine.

Also, none of the things you mentioned is actually a feat.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Dye Arrows existed for 3 years before Explosive Missile, and isn't even remotely approaching the same level as double dex to damage, which was caused by a typo within the Pistolero itself.

Grand Lodge 4/5

I find it funny that both bows and crossbows are 2-handed weapons but only two hand fire arms are excluded from Explosive missile myself. I found a way around it (conductive) for one of my long arms and typically use my pepperbox for the occasional tanglefoot bomb explosive missile anyway. Small grumble.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

N N 959 wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
You probably use Dye Arrows for extended Touch range, too, right?
I was confused by this statement. The dye arrow does no damage but does use Touch AC. Why are you phrasing the question in this manner?

Grenadier archetype + Explosive Missile discovery + Dye Arrow

(and, I imagine, whatever that funnel is that combines two splash weapons together)

Instead of tossing a Bomb with a 20ft increment, you shoot a Dye Arrow with a 110ft increment.

- still targets Touch AC
- same action as throwing a Bomb
- arrow does Bomb damage
- arrow can also be imbued with an Alchemical Weapon (ala Grenadier) for the cost of an extra move (or swift) action

There's no way I'd allow that to work without a FAQ stating this is intended.

I'm betting dollars to donuts that there was no Touch AC attack arrow in the Core books when the Grenadier AT and the Explosive Missile Discovery were authored.

No, not in the Core books, but they were still in print, as mentioned up thread.

This isn't a new combo, hence why I was assuming the other poster used it.

N N 959 wrote:
there's no way I'd allow any Touch AC arrow that does no damage to work with those abilities barring a FAQ which explicitly allows it.

FAQs are for "frequently asked questions", and are usually only implemented to sort out unclear rules.

There is nothing unclear about this combo.

N N 959 wrote:
IMO, this is a loophole

The more appropriate term would be "combo"

N N 959 wrote:
like the double dex damage for the pistolero.

I see no similarities.

This really isn't unclear, and I suggest you reconsider your position.

1/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
Dye Arrows existed for 3 years before Explosive Missile, and isn't even remotely approaching the same level as double dex to damage, which was caused by a typo within the Pistolero itself.

Dye arrow existed in Elves of Golarion only, which was a 3.5 supplement and not part of Core. It's only recently been added to Alchemy Manual. Sorry, not buying that any of those are intended to work.

1/5

Ascalaphus wrote:
Then you'd be going against the "run by RAW" part of PFS. Just because it wasn't intended doesn't mean it's against the rules.

The rules are subject to interpretation. I interpret the rules as requiring an arrow that does damage.

Quote:
These rules are written by several dozen people (including freelancers who write supplements) over more than five years now. The game is full of consequences that weren't originally intended, and that's fine.

No, it's not fine. The PDT is constantly having to address things that were not intended and cause problems for the game as they see it.

There are too many rules for any one person to catch every possible "combo" that could result. That doesn't mean things unaddressed are intended. The recent SLA ruling is a perfect example. Even after they acknowledge the consequence, they realized it was not intended and banned it.

IMO, this is no different except I haven't seen a FAQ explicitly allowing it.

1/5

Nefreet wrote:


N N 959 wrote:
IMO, this is a loophole
The more appropriate term would be "combo"

No, loophole is accurate if the there was no intention to allow these things to work with arrows/bolts that targeted Touch AC. Because these two rules were added independently of one another and no one contemplated the interaction, then this a loophole.

loophole wrote:
a means of escape or evasion; a means or opportunity of evading a rule, law, etc.

Using dye arrows to benefit from an ability that requires you to "hit" with an arrow, is a loophole.

Everyone who is in this conversation knows it.

Think about it for two seconds Nefreet, I can use any arrow to target touch AC and technically hit someone with an arrow. That's what Touch AC is, what I need to touch you. The dye arrow uses Touch AC to trigger its effect. It's no different than any other arrow except it releases a dye when you "touch" the target. Any arrow can touch the target if it exceed touch AC and thus trigger the effect of the AT and EM. Clearly that's not how the ability works.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Nefreet wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
You probably use Dye Arrows for extended Touch range, too, right?
I was confused by this statement. The dye arrow does no damage but does use Touch AC. Why are you phrasing the question in this manner?

Grenadier archetype + Explosive Missile discovery + Dye Arrow

(and, I imagine, whatever that funnel is that combines two splash weapons together)

Instead of tossing a Bomb with a 20ft increment, you shoot a Dye Arrow with a 110ft increment.

- still targets Touch AC
- same action as throwing a Bomb
- arrow does Bomb damage
- arrow can also be imbued with an Alchemical Weapon (ala Grenadier) for the cost of an extra move (or swift) action

There's no way I'd allow that to work without a FAQ stating this is intended.

I'm betting dollars to donuts that there was no Touch AC attack arrow in the Core books when the Grenadier AT and the Explosive Missile Discovery were authored.

No, not in the Core books, but they were still in print, as mentioned up thread.

This isn't a new combo, hence why I was assuming the other poster used it.

N N 959 wrote:
there's no way I'd allow any Touch AC arrow that does no damage to work with those abilities barring a FAQ which explicitly allows it.

FAQs are for "frequently asked questions", and are usually only implemented to sort out unclear rules.

There is nothing unclear about this combo.

N N 959 wrote:
IMO, this is a loophole

The more appropriate term would be "combo"

N N 959 wrote:
like the double dex damage for the pistolero.

I see no similarities.

This really isn't unclear, and I suggest you reconsider your position.

Lucky us, that since Alchemy Manual is a softcover, we will quite likely not get a FAQ on this subject any time soon. Of course you could always ask about combining it with a regular tanglefoot bag.

Oh and btw I am still currently debating if and how I can use my beloved tangleshot arrows with ranged spellstrikes^^

Grand Lodge 4/5

N N 959 wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
Dye Arrows existed for 3 years before Explosive Missile, and isn't even remotely approaching the same level as double dex to damage, which was caused by a typo within the Pistolero itself.

Dye arrow existed in Elves of Golarion only, which was a 3.5 supplement and not part of Core. It's only recently been added to Alchemy Manual. Sorry, not buying that any of those are intended to work.

It's just as part of Core as the Alchemy Manual is (read: not at all). And those arrows were legal in PFS before the Alchemy Manual came out.

N N 959 wrote:
loophole wrote:
a means of escape or evasion; a means or opportunity of evading a rule, law, etc.

Using dye arrows to benefit from an ability that requires you to "hit" with an arrow, is a loophole.

Everyone who is in this conversation knows it.

If by "everyone" you mean "N N 959" then yes, you are correct

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

N N 959 wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Then you'd be going against the "run by RAW" part of PFS. Just because it wasn't intended doesn't mean it's against the rules.

The rules are subject to interpretation. I interpret the rules as requiring an arrow that does damage.

The rules are clear. You can see that a plain reading of the rules allows the use of dye arrows. All that the Grenadier ability requires is that you attach stuff to "a weapon or piece of ammunition", which a dye arrow certainly is. And all that Explosive Missile requires is "a single arrow, crossbow bolt, or one-handed firearm bullet", and a dye arrow is still an arrow.

However, you think the rules shouldn't allow it. But in PFS, that's not your call to make.

N N 959 wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
These rules are written by several dozen people (including freelancers who write supplements) over more than five years now. The game is full of consequences that weren't originally intended, and that's fine.

No, it's not fine. The PDT is constantly having to address things that were not intended and cause problems for the game as they see it.

Using dye arrows to benefit from an ability that requires you to "hit" with an arrow, is a loophole.

Everyone who is in this conversation knows it.

It's a very nice combo. And possibly it's not what the writer was counting on. But it's allowed by the rules. Also, it makes sense in-game. You're using the arrow to splash stuff on someone, and a dye arrow is a perfectly sensible way to do that.

N N 959 wrote:
Think about it for two seconds Nefreet, I can use any arrow to target touch AC and technically hit someone with an arrow. That's what Touch AC is, what I need to touch you. The dye arrow uses Touch AC to trigger its effect. It's no different than any other arrow except it releases a dye when you "touch" the target. Any arrow can touch the target if it exceed touch AC and thus trigger the effect of the AT and EM. Clearly that's not how the ability works.

Splash weapons normally target touch AC. Dye arrows target touch AC to splash someone with a payload. I see no problem there.

Now, if you're wondering why a normal arrow can't deliver a payload on a Touch, and only penetrate for normal damage on a normal-AC hit - that's the same as a magus delivering touch spells through a weapon. To keep things simple, you roll one to-hit against one number, not one to-hit against two different numbers.

1/5

Explosive Missile wrote:
When the infused ammunition hits its target, it deals damage normally...

Sorry, I read that as requiring a piece of ammunition that can do damage. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

PFS explicitly allows the GM to adjudicate things that are not clear and it is not clear that dye/tanglefoot arrows can benefit from this property.

As you will probably never sit at my table, I wouldn't sweat it.

If Paizo FAQs this and says it's legal with a dye arrow, then I don't need a dye arrow because any arrow will hit the target exceeding Touch AC. It just won't do any damage...gee...like a dye arrow.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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N N 959 wrote:
Explosive Missile wrote:
When the infused ammunition hits its target, it deals damage normally...

Sorry, I read that as requiring a piece of ammunition that can do damage. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

PFS explicitly allows the GM to adjudicate things that are not clear and it is not clear that dye/tanglefoot arrows can benefit from this property.

As you will probably never sit at my table, I wouldn't sweat it.

If Paizo FAQs this and says it's legal with a dye arrow, then I don't need a dye arrow because any arrow will hit the target exceeding Touch AC. It just won't do any damage...gee...like a dye arrow.

You do know that they do NOT FAQ items that function as written, yes? This functions as written. So far, you seem to be the only person who has a problem understanding that the rules work as written, which is that a dye arrow, which has been around for years, is both an arrow and a piece of ammunition.

Pathfinder Player Companion: Elves of Golarion wrote:
Equipment: clustershot, healer's sorrow, and sparkfly crystal arrow weapon qualities and alchemical archery items, except trip arrows, on pages 22-23 are legal for play; Gods: all gods on page 10; Traits: all traits on page 15 except Kyonin Gatekeeper and Lapsed Faith

Looks like nothing has changed in some time for this listing.

Indeed, from what I recall, the only thing changed between the alchemical archery items in Elves of Golarion and the Alchemy Manual is that they finally, finally, fixed the splintershot arrow so it works.

Grand Lodge 4/5

kinevon wrote:
Indeed, from what I recall, the only thing changed between the alchemical archery items in Elves of Golarion and the Alchemy Manual is that they finally, finally, fixed the splintershot arrow so it works.

They also added a rule to let any non-gun piercing ammo be used instead of just arrows and bolts.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

N N 959 wrote:
I can use any arrow to target touch AC and technically hit someone with an arrow. That's what Touch AC is, what I need to touch you. The dye arrow uses Touch AC to trigger its effect. It's no different than any other arrow except it releases a dye when you "touch" the target. Any arrow can touch the target if it exceed touch AC and thus trigger the effect of the AT and EM.

I am not aware of any rule or mechanic that allows a regular arrow to hit touch AC for zero damage.

Can you show me where you've read this? You seem pretty sure.

1/5

Mark Seifter wrote:
Dye arrow is an odd item. It seems like it at least leads to headscratchers with the rule of "if the attack did 0 damage, the riders are also negated." While the specific rule for the dye arrow's own dye effect would override the general, I have no idea what should happen for other riders.

If the primary designers isn't sure what's suppose to happen, then it's hardly RAW that this works as anyone here has asserted. In fact, he points out that the general rule that something that fails to damage fails to deliver any subsequent effects suggests that a dye arrow or tanglefoot arrow would not work.

Adjudicate as you see fit.

Nefreet wrote:
Can you show me where you've read this? You seem pretty sure.

It's a logical consequence of a Touch AC, which represents what I need to touch you with any item, including a hand-held weapon, arrow, or open hand. I can hit your armor using your touch ac, but it won't do any damage. Which is exactly why a dye arrow doesn't do any damage but still hits the target. A normal arrow can work exactly the same way because the rules are meant to work logically. If a dye arrow can do ZERO damage and still discharge an Explosive Missile, then why not a dye arrow which has no dye?

There's nothing magical about a dye arrow targeting touch AC. You're firing an arrow with a ball of paint on the end. If that can physically contact you by targeting Touch AC, so can a normal arrow.

@general comment

The defense of the dye arrow working is some of the worst rules lawyering I've seen on the PFS forums, and I hate using the term rules lawyering. It is 100% clear there was no intention to let either of these powers use Touch AC dye arrows and it is simply an oversight or gap. The developers don't account for everything, they can't. What people have done is found such a gap and then tried to exploit it. That's isn't what Pathfinder is about and I'm pretty sure that's not what PFS is about.

I don't care what people do at their table.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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I'm confused at how it's "100% clear" when you're the only one in this that's arguing that it doesn't work.

1/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
I'm confused at how it's "100% clear" when you're the only one in this that's arguing that it doesn't work.

It's 100% clear that this is rules lawyering. The EM description says the attack does "normal damage" which which means they weren't contemplating simply touching the target with something. Apparently I'm the only one in this discussion who has enough integrity to acknowledge that this is bogus and an exploit. Everyone else is simply deluding themselves and looking the other way trying to pretend there's nothing to see here.

You know what? Do whatever you want.

3/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.
N N 959 wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
I'm confused at how it's "100% clear" when you're the only one in this that's arguing that it doesn't work.

It's 100% clear that this is rules lawyering. The EM description says the attack does "normal damage" which which means they weren't contemplating simply touching the target with something. Apparently I'm the only one in this discussion who has enough integrity to acknowledge that this is bogus and an exploit. Everyone else is simply deluding themselves and looking the other way trying to pretend there's nothing to see here.

You know what? Do whatever you want.

You're getting pretty insulting here, insinuating the people who disagree with you have little integrity, are deluded, or are being disingenuous. I recommend taking a step back and re-examining the situation with a clear, calm head.

1/5

I'm actually just matching the tone that seems to have been directed against me when I disagreed with those here: Let's look at the inflammatory and baiting remarks by others.

kinevon wrote:
So far, you seem to be the only person who has a problem understanding that the rules work as written
Jeff Merola wrote:


If by "everyone" you mean "N N 959" then yes, you are correct.
---
I'm confused at how it's "100% clear" when you're the only one in this that's arguing that it doesn't work.
Nefreet wrote:
This really isn't unclear, and I suggest you reconsider your position.
Ascalaphus wrote:
Also, none of the things you mentioned is actually a feat.

Completely irrelevant to the discussion.

My initial question and response that this should not work was neither inflammatory not directed at any individual. Nor was I trying to dictate to others, but simply expressing how I would rule. I'd much rather a good faith friendly discussion, but I have no problem fighting fire with fire. If others want to leave out the snide comments and innuendos, I'm happy to discuss it. Otherwise, I leave everyone to their own judgment.

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