A PFO-University forum presentation: Mobile Nodes: How to avoid becoming one.


Pathfinder Online


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10 days ago I offered to present this course on Mumble for Pathfinder Online University but while trying to schedule it PvP livened up for a couple of days and I suggested putting it on hold because I was too busy doing combat to chat about combat.

The PFO-U rep I spoke to said that made the course even more germane and needed, and frankly I agree, but we’ll have to settle on doing this as a Paizo thread, and hopefully LOTS of experienced people can offer answers to any questions, as will I.

Mobile Nodes: How to avoid becoming one.

Presented by Midnight.

The instructor is a self described enthusiastic but mediocre PvPer who has Tier 2 in all 4 gathering skills and is pushing two gathering skills to tier 3.

This class excludes Tower oriented combat but may offer ideas you’ll use there.

Short lecture. There will likely be more questions and answers than lecture.

1) Get out there and do offensive PvP. It will make you a better defender as you see the various ways people defeat/escape you. Seeing what they do wrong or right when you’re not carrying anything important may make the difference when YOU are a defender and, thus, help you get those valuable resources, recipe drops, etc. to YOUR bank. You can practice offense in hexes with an open PvP window without reputation loss. If you find an often contested hex like a coal hex (where there aren’t many other coal hexes) you also aren’t likely to shock anyone and cause hurt feelings.

2) Stealth is your friend, not for hiding, but for cutting targeting range. Even turning it on for a few seconds can break someone’s targeting.

3) Speed and other buffs are your friends. Don’t forget you have them. You may not even need to fight. The Function One button will shift your focus to yourself in case the enemy attacks are causing you to auto-target them.

4) Don’t advertise you are carrying anything. Avoid encumbrance. Slow targets are juicy targets.

5) Be aware of PvP windows in hexes you operate in, as well as in hexes you might escape to. Be aware of the stereotypical demeanor of the folks in each neighborhood, unless scouting that is why are heading there in the first place.

6) The 60 second attacker flag. Your attacker might want to keep renewing it BEFORE it expires. Don't let him do that in a hex without an open PvP window. You want him to take the rep penalty he'll get if he attacks again after the attacker flag expires. The attacker flag can even remain valid moving from a hex with an open PvP window as you both move to an adjacent hex with a closed PvP window.

These are just very simple points, but hopefully they’ll lead to useful and educational discussions.

and to quote my 7th grade algebra teacher whenever he finished a lecture...

Questions? Comments? Criticisms? Cries of Anguish?

Goblin Squad Member

No questions at present, but I did want to thank you for offering the opportunity. I will definitely be point folks this direction.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Regarding Point 1: Using open PVP windows, you can practice PVP with your friends and settlement-mates. Remove your armor, equip a +0 weapon, empty your inventory, and beat the snot out of each other until your cheap weapons fall apart. It's not a direct substitute for actual life-and-death PVP, but it can help you get accustomed to the pace of PVP. It's also a great way to experiment with the feats that trigger knockdown, knockback, and everything else that NPCs ignore.

Once you're comfortable with the ebb and flow of PVP, then you can take it to the next level by attacking people in high-conflict hexes, as Midnight suggested, or start equipping armor and better weapons for your pre-arranged skirmishes.

Goblin Squad Member

My 'Cleric-based' technique I teach in my PFU class on Travelling safely has a LOT in common with what Midnight laid out above.

-Never travel encumbered.
-Never travel 'by halves'. Stay alert, and do not 'combine' tasks/errands.
-Never use public channels to discuss travel plans.

I advise new folks to spend 5 hours of exp on moving faster. It really can save your life: (buy in this order ftw)

Seminary Trainer: 263exp
Focus Proficiency 1
Hit Points 1 & 2
Power 1 & 2
Divine Attack Bonus 1
Agile Feet 1
Minor Cure 1

Dreadnaught Trainer: 49 exp
Medium Armor Proficiency 1

Cleric Trainer:188 exp
Evangelist 1
Holy Symbol Proficiency 1
Travel Domain 1

Once you have all that stuff slotted, switch to your implement to populate the hotbar and UNSLOT the Agile Feet and Minor cure with 'charging' in their description, (they can put you under the world) then use this technique:

“R, Ctrl, Right-mouse, buff up”

1) 'r' to engage Autorun,
2) 'ctrl' to engage sprint,
3) hold the right mouse button and steer with your mouse,
4) '1' (w/e hotkey for Agile feet) keep that buff up as continuously as possible
You must navigate via the mini map, looking at your main screen/world map for a check on your surroundings whenever the mini map shows you have a clear path for a bit. Using autorun forces you to stay alert for mobs/PCs, and it lets you type in chat or sip your drink while you travel too ;)


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Don't listen to Pino, it's trick :p


Thanks for your time Pino!

Goblin Squad Member

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TEO Pino wrote:
Once you have all that stuff slotted, switch to your implement to populate the hotbar and UNSLOT the Agile Feet and Minor cure with 'charging' in their description, (they can put you under the world)

Although actually, if escape is your only goal, and being

"exploitish" (to quote a developer) and locked out of the character for a while doesn't bother you, there's nothing wrong with being driven out of the game by a drop to blue-sky....

Goblin Squad Member

Thank you Midnight!
Hopefully you will have slightly less easy pickings now ;-)

For the record: this presentation is officially endorsed by PFUniversity.

(and it's my fault it didn't make it into the 1st week schedule)

Goblin Squad Member

TEO Pino wrote:


4) '1' (w/e hotkey for Agile feet) keep that buff up as continuously as possible

There are two agile feat spells the one with charge and the one without and they are on separate cooldowns. Alternating them will ensure you have it running continuously.

That said energetic field on a staff is a better runaway spell, just impossible to keep continuously going.

Goblin Squad Member

Neadenil Edam wrote:
TEO Pino wrote:


4) '1' (w/e hotkey for Agile feet) keep that buff up as continuously as possible

There are two agile feat spells the one with charge and the one without and they are on separate cooldowns. Alternating them will ensure you have it running continuously.

That said energetic field on a staff is a better runaway spell, just impossible to keep continuously going.

The charging version will put you under the world, randomly. I cannot recommend using it until they fix it.

I mention E.F. in my talk, and I recommend experimenting with what gives you the best experience. Heals are worth a lot ime.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

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Nice piece, but I think there is a problem that you aren't considering:

Midnight of Golgotha wrote:


1) Get out there and do offensive PvP. It will make you a better defender as you see the various ways people defeat/escape you. Seeing what they do wrong or right when you’re not carrying anything important may make the difference when YOU are a defender and, thus, help you get those valuable resources, recipe drops, etc. to YOUR bank. You can practice offense in hexes with an open PvP window without reputation loss. If you find an often contested hex like a coal hex (where there aren’t many other coal hexes) you also aren’t likely to shock anyone and cause hurt feelings.

You see, number 1 advice, probably the more important, don't work.

You are suggesting PvErs to do something that they don't like to become better at doing something they don't like. In a game.

There should be some motivation for doing that, and avoiding being killed and looted wouldn't be enough for people that only want to unwind and have a fun game, without getting the adrenaline to flow.
They will quit, not train to win.

Maybe 1 in 10 will learn to enjoy PvP and become good at it. But then he probably will switch his position and become one of the hunters, not simply a prey capable to defend himself.

What we need is advice for the prey, advice for the hunters will not help them.

Goblin Squad Member

Diego Rossi wrote:


You see, number 1 advice, probably the more important, don't work.
You are suggesting PvErs to do something that they don't like to become better at doing something they don't like. In a game.

There should be some motivation for doing that, an avoiding being killed and looted wouldn't be enough for people that only want to unwind and have a fun game, without getting the adrenaline to flow.
They will quit, not train to win.

Maybe 1 in 10 will learn to enjoy PvP and become good at it. But then he probably will switch his position and become one of the hunters, not simply a prey capable to defend himself.

What we need is advice for the prey, advice for the hunters will not help them.

Pretty much.

Note that many many players enjoy both styles of play however:

More commonly a PvP player has a personality that is competitive, likes excitement and an adrenaline rush and gets great satisfaction out of personal success. They tend to play for kicks and fun and get pleasure out of winning and in other games judge success by things like killboards and kill ratios. They tend to not be overly excited about gaining game gold except as a means to buy combat gear and a sign of their "success at looting". A PvP player will see a game like Sims (biggest selling PC game of all time) as mind numbingly boring.

On the other hand a PvE player is often out to relax, chip away at some long term goals and generally chat and enjoy some company while "doing their bit" to help their community build something bigger themselves. They could not care less about kill boards and judge success by gold accumulate or things built. The PvE player is often logging in to wind down. PVE players see full on PvP games as stressful and a waste of time.

Getting the two types to co-exist in the same game is always difficult.


I have bits of each in me. Luckily, success in this game is going to require bits of each.

No one in this game yet (and maybe ever) can fund their PvPing through PvP. The loot isn't that good.

And we've seen what happens to those who refuse to PvP in an open world PvP game.

People are going to have to do bits of each, or find people who will do those bits for them (usually in exchange for doing other bits of the game).

My advice is like anyone else's advice. It only helps those who take it.

If people don't want to take it, there are dozens of us who will happily help ourselves to their husks.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

"The adrenaline rush". I am in competitive tabletop game and play to win them, but I can't get the adrenaline rush of killing other players in games like EVE or PFO. For me it is generally "Oh bother, PvP. Either a long period of boredom waiting for a fight or a short period of boredom fighting for a goal that don't interest me."

The few times I have found it interesting in EVE it was for the long term goal (capturing a station or defending one) or for the tactical exercise of fighting someone that had declared a war in high sec and was trying to kill defenseless miners or transport ships without being jumped by the combat capable characters.

I prefer PFO PvP (so far) because the loss is less important. Being killed by another player is something that (probably) the NPC have already done to you several times.
Similarly, losing your stuff because someone has killed you isn't so different from losing it because something (the computer controlled NPCs) has killed you.

Goblin Squad Member

Diego Rossi wrote:

I prefer PFO PvP (so far) because the loss is less important. Being killed by another player is something that (probably) the NPC have already done to you several times.

Similarly, losing your stuff because someone has killed you isn't so different from losing it because something (the computer controlled NPCs) has killed you.

I think that is bound to change.

We'll have Outposts soonish. They will provide the bulk resources that are required to build and maintain our settlements.

They will have a fixed location, and will be very targetable. Anyone who doesn't defend their Outposts when they are attacked is going to lose bulk resources, either detroyed or stolen. They might be attackable only during PvP windows, but they're still a fixed target - defenders can't just run away.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

But that kind of PvP is the part that I would like. Strategical/logistical decisions, fighting for a clear motivation and not 10 not second of a adrenaline rush that I don't feel.

Goblin Squad Member

Diego Rossi wrote:

Nice piece, but I think there is a problem that you aren't considering:

Midnight of Golgotha wrote:


1) Get out there and do offensive PvP. It will make you a better defender as you see the various ways people defeat/escape you....

You see, number 1 advice, probably the more important, don't work.

You are suggesting PvErs to do something that they don't like to become better at doing something they don't like. In a game.

Two comments:

-The suggestion is also that they (we!) learn how to avoid the stuff we don't like by learning how it actually works. An alternative would be to practice running away tactics - which is exactly what the original post is about.

-Getting killed during something like the Barbarian brawl (with no valuables on you) is very different from getting robbed when you have a full load of valuables. I hate being forced into pvp when outnumbered with everything to lose (I love getting away, though). Taking away 'forced', 'outnumbered' and 'things to lose' from the equation and you might find a little practice worth it to increase your survivability.

..and I still find it remarkable that the "evil predatory Golgatha" is teaching everyone how to get away from them. I'd rather not critique them for seeing things from a non-PvP-adverse point of view.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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I feel there is two important part missing here in this talk

Location, location, location

Bandits can't be everywhere and even bandits try to make PvP meaningful. This means there are hotspots of bandit activity and there are areas where you don't get attacked often.

For the Emerald Lodge one dangerous area was around Iron Gauntlet - the fighting there between Sensou and Golgotha meant that you easily got into the cross-fire.
Similar case if we wander to far South into EBA territory. I guess everyone knows Thod - so I have never been attacked - but I had a 1000 XP bowyer who god chased by a Golgothan after leaving Hammerfall.

Time, time, time

There are times you meet lots of people and there are times you hardly meet anyone. Not every player can play at times when hardly anyone else is around. But these are the times you can even climb up ZKM and not meet anyone.

I only tried it once after taking 45 minutes gathering scrap heaps to get 2 gold ore. I was prepared to be chased, to run, to leave my stolen resources - but I never met a single soul.

Goblin Squad Member

Has anyone tried talking ? Because you all seem to have the false dilemma of 'fight or flight, no third option' in your minds.

...

I think most 'bandits' would cease fire if someone was talking to them about making a deal, and not trying to flee/fight. We don't need a mechanical SAD to talk/make deals, & a neutral party/non combatant has the option of trying to develop a relationship with the predators a step above corpse.

Look at it this way: One day we will have mercenaries , they will want pay to protect caravans and gatherers, this way just cuts out the middle man.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

TEO Pino wrote:

Has anyone tried talking ? Because you all seem to have the false dilemma of 'fight or flight, no third option' in your minds.

How many second before you die in combat? How many seconds you can spend typing in the hope that the other guy will spend his time reading instead of killing? Why the other guy should spend time reading and non killing (if hostile) if there is the chance that your friends are running toward him?

It can work if you start typing instead of running as soon as you see a dot in the mini map. But if you assume that every encounter is hostile your best option is running. You will end with nothing in your hand if you pay everyone you meet, regardless of how dangerous he is and what are his intentions.

If we had voice communications in game it could work. As long as we are limited to typing it will not work for bandit encounters.

Goblin Squad Member

Diego Rossi wrote:

How many second before you die in combat? How many seconds you can spend typing in the hope that the other guy will spend his time reading instead of killing? Why the other guy should spend time reading and non killing (if hostile) if there is the chance that your friends are running toward him?

It can work if you start typing instead of running as soon as you see a dot in the mini map. But if you assume that every encounter is hostile your best option is running. You will end with nothing in your hand if you pay everyone you meet, regardless of how dangerous he is and what are his intentions.

I think those are somewhat valid. If someone send me a text while I'm fleeing, I'll ignore the distraction. If I even see it - as often as not my chat is covered by the mini-map.

Chat could be used by bandits before they attack: "Hey! We are stealthed and have you surrounded. We won't kill you if you can hand over 50 items." But right now, there's not much reason to not kill the target.

Goblin Squad Member

Hey Pino- have you empirically verified that all 3 of Travel, Agile, and Evangelist stack with each other?

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Guurzak wrote:
Hey Pino- have you empirically verified that all 3 of Travel, Agile, and Evangelist stack with each other?

No.

Goblin Squad Member

Diego Rossi wrote:
TEO Pino wrote:

Has anyone tried talking ? Because you all seem to have the false dilemma of 'fight or flight, no third option' in your minds.

How many second before you die in combat? How many seconds you can spend typing in the hope that the other guy will spend his time reading instead of killing? Why the other guy should spend time reading and non killing (if hostile) if there is the chance that your friends are running toward him?

It can work if you start typing instead of running as soon as you see a dot in the mini map. But if you assume that every encounter is hostile your best option is running. You will end with nothing in your hand if you pay everyone you meet, regardless of how dangerous he is and what are his intentions.

If we had voice communications in game it could work. As long as we are limited to typing it will not work for bandit encounters.

Oh, I do not disagree:

-If they just murder folks, the reputation system should punish them incrementally until they cannot murder folks. Right now it emphatically does not.
-I agree combat is way too fast/twitchy.
-I agree paying everyone would not work.

That said, I still want to hear if anyone actually has tried talking, and with whom, and how it worked out.

Goblin Squad Member

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I'm fairly sure that Tigari, one of the only people I know that has actually decided to stop caring about rep for any period of time, would strongly disagree with your first point. The Reputation system has done exactly what it is supposed to do; it has stopped him murdering folks.


And the experiences related by Tigari and others who have dipped in rep have succeeded in modifying the behaviors of many more players, like me.

I might dip to low rep someday, but besides facing an involuntary dip due to a game bug, I just don't see it happening anytime soon. The negatives outweigh the positives, considering how many OTHER activities I can choose to engage in.

Goblin Squad Member

TEO Pino wrote:
-If they just murder folks, the reputation system should punish them incrementally until they cannot murder folks. Right now it emphatically does not.
Nihimon wrote:

The ramifications of killing other players will vary on the basis of many factors. The most significant effect may be the emergent behavior of other players in the game, as opposed to a game mechanic.

I think it likely there will be horribly evil kingdoms run by rogues, assassins, spies and traitors. What the other players do about that will be up to them.

Goblin Squad Member

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If one can't go from point A to point B without a military escort, this game is already a fail at a variety of levels.

A new player may not be joining with his battalion of friends to survive the early days while he learns the game and tries to find a home in one of the settlements. He/she is most certainly not geared up in Tier 2 equipment to survive an outing to see the world and most of the PvPers, by their own admission, are so kitted out.

The predators have every advantage and the new player has absolutely none until such time as the person - either quickly learns and adapts and finds some friends real fast. Or quits.

That is the road I see this game heading towards. What the other players do about the PvPers is a fine statement from Ryan but for a new player, that is meaningless in the reality of their early days of the game where THEY can't do anything and whether they survive the learning curve of the game or not, becomes dependent upon the other players in the game with enough power, gear and numbers curtailing what they want to do to help and protect new players.

I frankly don't see people forming a standing militia to protect Marchmont in this game when they have their own settlements to look after.

This from a player who had three attempted ganking directed at him in the last week upon leaving Marchmont which I ran from.

Now, I avoid everyone I meet in the wilds because they may be a bandit/PvPer.

Is this game truly about 'Trust No One'? If so, that message needs to be louder then.


Can we get back to more survival lessons and less game commentary in *this* particular thread?

I too am in 3 PvP threads at once, today, but let's keep this one focused on practical tips for survival.

Thanks.

Goblin Squad Member

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There are some obvious ones if your moving stuff.

- pick a quiet time of day
- send someone to scout ahead
- gear up to run not fight
- never get distracted by shiney things (do not stop and gather)
- try to take the less obvious/quieter route even if its further
- pass hexes are bad places only cross them if you must to go up a level
- cliffs/map edges reduce the direction threats come from by 50% but reduce your escape options by the same amount
- if doing multiple runs vary your route


I am going to repeal my suggestion #1 of doing offensive PvP to learn how to defend. The community is beginning to show a vindictiveness that makes that suggestion a very very bad idea, for an offensive character and its company and settlement and powerbloc and any associates, particularly for the new players this lecture was intended for.

For example, I have a character who is on a KOS bandit list who had a single kill.

But I still agree with Richard Pryor's advice on what to do when facing bandits... "RUN!"

Goblin Squad Member

Savage Grace wrote:
The community is beginning to show a vindictiveness that makes that suggestion a very very bad idea...

One guy says one thing and suddenly it's "the community"?

Phaeros unilaterally cooled off our "hot war" against Golgotha. That's not "vindictiveness".


I'm judging by a variety of signs. The very existence of a bandit list is reason enough to advise new players against offensive PvP for purposes of learning, regardless of whichever vigilante posting you might be referring to.

Goblin Squad Member

New players are more than welcome to contact members of Phaeros to setup offensive PvP training exercises. I'm not speaking for them, but I'm sure similar arrangements may be made with Brighthaven.

Those that ride with outlaws...end up on lists.

Goblin Squad Member

Midnight of Golgotha wrote:
I'm judging by a variety of signs. The very existence of a bandit list is reason enough to advise new players against offensive PvP for purposes of learning, regardless of whichever vigilante posting you might be referring to.

Are "bandit lists" new to PFO? That strikes me as unlikely.


I hadn't seen one before K.P.'s but there are hundreds of threads I haven't had time to read.

The last 10 days have caused me to reconsider that advice for new players. Gosh only knows who they might anger and how many of their friends and associates might have to pay for their actions.

Goblin Squad Member

here's another idea for safe travel:

If you jog along, not sprinting, not using speed buffs, you actually 'see' a little farther, in terms of the actual distance between you and encountered players. Put another way, if you travel at top speed you often end up very close to someone almost as soon as you see their dot on the mini map.

Jog along, ready to start sprinting and buffing as soon as you see folks, and you may avoid more unwanted encounters.

Also, this technique means your buffs are reliable. If you are trying to keep them up 100% of the time while travelling, you sometimes find them greyed out, or just non-responsive.

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