eakratz |
eakratz wrote:Ranks are the skill points contributed to the skill, not the overall modifier. There is no way to have more ranks in a skill than a character has hit dice since the maximum ranks you can have in a skill is equal to your hit dice. The +2 bonus is merely that, a bonus. It has nothing to do with ranks, so it doesn't contribute to caster level.Yes, so if you had 7 ranks in craft weapons you would take +5 to the DC to create a +3 weapon (which requires caster level 9).
However Keen does not have such a requirement - the caster level merely sets the DC, which you can use your total skill modifier to meet.
Yes. I was merely pointing out ranks vs total bonus.
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Blacksmith is a holdover from 3.5. In 3.5, the ironworking Craft skills were armorsmith, weaponsmith, and blacksmith....armor, weapons, and then anything else.
Generally speaking, it's not a PC skill. Just as Whitesmith is usually subsumed by Jeweller, the applicable parts of blacksmithing to weapons and armor are subsumed in those other skills.
Technically, 'blacksmithing' is working with hard metals of any kind, and weapon/armorsmithing are 'part' of blacksmithing. But the non-combat parts were separated out for ease of use.
It may be that if you have armor or weaponsmith ranks, you're assumed to be able to do all the simple blacksmithing stuff like patching a hole in an iron pot. Who knows?
==Aelryinth
Kalindlara Contributor |
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I'm playing a fighter in a friend's game now. Very likely I may take Master Crafter because I'm already crafting my own arrows. The problem here being I took craft alchemy and craft bows so my skill ranks are all used up already.
Other than that knowing who an enemy and when I'm going to have to face them makes being able to craft slaying arrows a very nice thing to look forward to.
You're in luck, friend! Magic arrows are covered under Craft (bows). So make all the slaying arrows you like! :D
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
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Bane is a +4 ability...against the right enemy.
Against the wrong enemy, it's worthless.
Holy gets its power because its good against all EVIL...which is 95% of what you fight.
Bane is only good if you know a lot of your enemies are going to be that way.
It's why you don't put Bane on things like the Magus or Paladin sword infusion list. It's a no-brainer if you're fighting enemy type X.
It's also why the Inquisitor is so effective. A +4 ability on command against a foe is VERY nice for a buff.
A similar ability is what I call the 'Scourge' ability, which is +2?+2 against a foe. You can find it on the Sun Sword, which is +2/+2 against Evil opponents...basically the flip side of Holy. Main difference, it doesn't make the weapon count as Good.
==Aelryinth
glass |
So that's 4 skills per level. Max out perception and craft (weapons and armor) along with Profession (tailor) and you can literally make your own magic armor, weapons, and wondrous items.
The feat says "pick one skill", and lacks the notation you can use it more than once. So you can't armour, weapons and wondrous items unless you can figure a way to make them all with the same skill (good luck).
_
glass.
voska66 |
So, often I see people complain about fighters not having the resources they need to do things. Most of them say you can't fight CR appropriate things because they need magic gear and thus 100% rely on spellcasters to do the things they need to do.
This feat is core and has been available the whole time.
Sure, I guess it's a 3 feat tax to have access to all your important magic items at half cost without needing pesky spellcasters and it does require skill investment.But per the crafting rules, you can substitute a craft check in place of a spellcraft check. If you're a Lore Warden you can just make a spellcraft check.
Hell, let's look at a fighter build:
human, 20 point buy:
16(18) STR
14 DEX
14 CON
12 INT
10 WIS
8 CHASo that's 4 skills per level. Max out perception and craft (weapons and armor) along with Profession (tailor) and you can literally make your own magic armor, weapons, and wondrous items. Plus extra skills to put in whatever, unless you don't wanna go human. And there's still favored class.
By 8th level you feasibly have the means to make yourself some of these or even lower level if you just want these.Not to mention that you can also make your own stat items, cloak of resistance, amulet of natural armor, and even a headband of wisdom to boost those will saves.
Three feats seems like a lot to any other character, but if I choose to just craft a keen weapon instead of taking Improved Critical, and I can also get my magic weapons on the cheap, is that not worth the feat?
Is Craft Wondrous Item not worth taking instead of Iron Will?
Retraining cheese aside, this seems like something that I either missed being a fad, or is something people dismiss completely when dissing on the fighter.
I usually take it to craft weapons and armor. I've never done for wondrous items though. Just didn't feel right for my fighter with Profession Blacksmith to be making wondrous items unless I can pound of metal with hammer. Not saying you can't do it but just doesn't make sense the character I make.
master_marshmallow |
Right we had that discussion earlier which answers the question: "Why don't fighters take Master Craftsman?"
Obviously in a practical sense the answer is: "because they don't have to" because usually there will be another character who has access to crafting.
But in a hypothetical theory crafting scenario where there are no other crafting characters available my question still is:
"Can I use retraining per Ultimate Campaign to swap out 'Master Craftsman (blacksmith)' for 'Master Craftsman (tailor)' and be able to utilize the feats Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Armor separately?
Sure, there are other debates about whether or not these two skills truly cover the bases needed to craft all the items you want, but the premise remains the same, if I invest in said needed skills separately and the only difference is which skill Master Craftsman says I have to use, can I just spend the 5 days or whatever and pay the cost to retrain and then gain the benefits of the other feats? Naturally doing so would cut me off from the other item creation feat, but that may not necessarily be a problem since as a fighter (and also as a human for the proposed build above) I would have feats to spare for a very bare bones build.
Weirdo |
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RAW, sure. Master Craftsman isn't technically a prerequisite for either crafting feat so you don't have to retrain those at the same time; 5 ranks in tailor still counts as your caster level for purposes of taking Craft Arms & Armour even if you can't actually create weapons or armour using craft (tailor). A GM might rule otherwise but I don't see the harm of spending a feat slot instead of retraining costs to pull that off.
Personally I think it makes way more sense to houserule Master Craftsman so that it does allow you to make any item for which you have 5 or more ranks in the appropriate craft skill rather than restricting you to one skill.
master_marshmallow |
RAW, sure. Master Craftsman isn't technically a prerequisite for either crafting feat so you don't have to retrain those at the same time; 5 ranks in tailor still counts as your caster level for purposes of taking Craft Arms & Armour even if you can't actually create weapons or armour using craft (tailor). A GM might rule otherwise but I don't see the harm of spending a feat slot instead of retraining costs to pull that off.
Personally I think it makes way more sense to houserule Master Craftsman so that it does allow you to make any item for which you have 5 or more ranks in the appropriate craft skill rather than restricting you to one skill.
Right, what I'm saying is I am going to fully invest into both Profession (Tailor) and Profession (Blacksmith), so both of them have ~+16 modifiers when I actually attempt to craft something at lvl 10. All I would be retraining is Master Crafstman to switch which skill I was using and thus what items would be available.
RAW it should work, and if nothing else it gives fighters one more trick that they have on less feat heavy classes.
A really audacious person would also retrain the crafting feat every time you want to do this so you only lose out 2 feat slots instead of 3.
The really big downside to this is the taxation of both time and money on the retraining itself. But in theory it does give the fighter more to do since you can grant yourself flight and decent armor with the Celestial Plate/Armor and Shield combo. Tailor also gives you access to boots, belts, and cloaks for your boots of striding and springing, belt of stats, and cloak of resistance.
IMO, that is totally worth 2 or three feats to have guaranteed access to those items, in a theoretical sense at least.
Kudaku |
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Retraining is an interesting solution, but it really eats into the downtime you want to spend on crafting. Unless you're playing a very relaxed campaign you might have a hard time finding the time for both training and building things. I'm guessing a lot of GMs may develop an eye twitch when you start retraining to Master Craftsman (profession: milliner) for the third time.
Great option for Kingmaker though!
Chengar Qordath |
Retraining is an interesting solution, but it really eats into the downtime you want to spend on crafting. Unless you're playing a very relaxed campaign you might have a hard time finding the time for both training and building things. I'm guessing a lot of GMs may develop an eye twitch when you start retraining to Master Craftsman (profession: milliner) for the third time.
Great option for Kingmaker though!
If I were GMing, I'd probably be more inclined to allow Weirdo's suggested house-rule for Master Craftsman than I would be to allow that much in the way of retraining shenanigans.
master_marshmallow |
Kudaku wrote:If I were GMing, I'd probably be more inclined to allow Weirdo's suggested house-rule for Master Craftsman than I would be to allow that much in the way of retraining shenanigans.Retraining is an interesting solution, but it really eats into the downtime you want to spend on crafting. Unless you're playing a very relaxed campaign you might have a hard time finding the time for both training and building things. I'm guessing a lot of GMs may develop an eye twitch when you start retraining to Master Craftsman (profession: milliner) for the third time.
Great option for Kingmaker though!
I concur
kamenhero25 |
I've actually been playing in a campaign recently where we have a fighter who took Master Craftsman.
He's an Ironborn (3rd party race) and had a trait that makes him need to craft items every day. He was also constructed by a master smith that was so talented he could create magic items without needing magic. We don't have anyone who is capable of seriously crafting, interested in crafting, or anyone with a character concept that would logically craft items. We only have one full caster at all, a support Oracle who definitely isn't built to craft.
So there are plenty of thematic reasons for a fighter to take it and it can be very useful. As for why most people don't, I'd guess that it's because it's easier for a wizard and most people don't build characters that would use it in character. Which is sad because it's a cool idea.
Kudaku |
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Chengar Qordath wrote:I concurKudaku wrote:If I were GMing, I'd probably be more inclined to allow Weirdo's suggested house-rule for Master Craftsman than I would be to allow that much in the way of retraining shenanigans.Retraining is an interesting solution, but it really eats into the downtime you want to spend on crafting. Unless you're playing a very relaxed campaign you might have a hard time finding the time for both training and building things. I'm guessing a lot of GMs may develop an eye twitch when you start retraining to Master Craftsman (profession: milliner) for the third time.
Great option for Kingmaker though!
As would I, but the retraining method has the virtue of being RAW. If you have a GM with a hard-on for by-the-book rulings it makes the feat slightly less useless. :)
Adept_Woodwright |
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Yeah, I don't really see it as a optimizing feat. It is pretty nifty as a thematic ability though.
One character I've drawn plans for is a Mythic Drunken Master Monk - Evangelist of Cayden Caylean (used Beyond Morality to get around Lawful limit) -- he took Master Craftsman in (craft - brews) or whatever the actual name of it is. I don't think I'd like the look of the character half as much without it.
I'd just never take it in an optimizing build, and unfortunately those builds appear more often on forums (either for critique or as subject of complaint)
Kalindlara Contributor |
Adept_Woodwright |
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Yeah, it was for the elixers -- his backstory would have been something along the lines of the town innkeeper (where Caylean's shrines are usually located), moonlighting as a brewer that supplies wealthy locals with some particularly fine drinks for parties. As Id only ever use it in home games, the GMs may have been willing to expand the list. Besides, with Mythic rules in play, it wasn't really hurting for utility.
(Now that I look at him again, he had a level of druid in there to pick up the cantrip Create Water with Caylean's variant spellcasting from Inner Sea Gods -- three guesses what liquid replaces water in that variant... the first 2 don't count -- so I guess the example loses a little weight because it eventually had access to most of Craft Wondrous Item via a legitimate caster level.)
Ah, it was Profession - Brewer. Wisdom skill was better for the monk
Ashiel |
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This feat is core and has been available the whole time.
Sure, I guess it's a 3 feat tax to have access to all your important magic items at half cost without needing pesky spellcasters and it does require skill investment.
Because Master Craftsman is a trap. You're mistaken when you say things like "access to all your important magic items at half cost" because this simply isn't true. Let's break it down a bit and look at why MC is terrible.
1. It requires you to invest ranks into a skill with no meaningful value to PCs (Craft or Profession), unlike Spellcraft.
2. It requires you to reach 5th level and burn one of your real feats.
3. Since MC only qualifies you to take feats, you have to then wait for 2 levels with effectively no feats to get a crafting feat at 7th level.
4. Your item creation is excessively limiting to the point saying all your important magic items is kind of a sick joke, because you're limited to what sorts of items you can create by your craft and/or profession skill (see magic item creation). Which means you get a severely watered down version of the item creation feats as you can only craft a very tiny subset of items.
For example, a Fighter with Craft (Armosmithing) and Master Craftsman and Craft Wondrous Item can only make magical armor-things, but is pretty much screwed if he wants to craft elixirs, feather tokens, cloaks, rings, amulets, bags of holding, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
That's why Master Craftsman is awful.
Compare to a Ranger or Paladin who simply meet the CL requirements at 7th level automatically and have Spellcraft as a class skill. 100% of Rangers I make pick up Craft Wondrous & Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and even if I dumped Int to 7 during generation (a likely prospect) they will be very competent at crafting stuff because the DCs aren't so high. And they didn't have to vomit feats down the toilet to do it.
Ashiel |
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If you ignore the recent FAQ (which changes periodically because it's not actually rules), the best core method for crafting as a Fighter is to be a gnome. Gnomes are naturally magical and get a caster level via their racial qualities which qualifies them for item creation feats. In a non-CRB game, aasimar and tieflings are decent for that sort of thing too.
God only knows where those outsiders like Ghaeles are getting their +2 holy swords from now since suddenly outsiders can't make magic items anymore if you follow the FAQ. *snickers*
EDIT: A friend of mine reminded me that ghaeles and most angels cast spells as clerics so that at least explains where those would come from.
Weirdo |
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Compare to a Ranger or Paladin who simply meet the CL requirements at 7th level automatically and have Spellcraft as a class skill. 100% of Rangers I make pick up Craft Wondrous & Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and even if I dumped Int to 7 during generation (a likely prospect) they will be very competent at crafting stuff because the DCs aren't so high. And they didn't have to vomit feats down the toilet to do it.
Or a bloodrager who doesn't have the same -3 caster level and thus qualifies two levels earlier! I made a mithral brawling breastplate. ;)
kamenhero25 |
1. It requires you to invest ranks into a skill with no meaningful value to PCs (Craft or Profession), unlike Spellcraft.
2. It requires you to reach 5th level and burn one of your real feats.
3. Since MC only qualifies you to take feats, you have to then wait for 2 levels with effectively no feats to get a crafting feat at 7th level.
4. Your item creation is excessively limiting to the point saying all your important magic items is kind of a sick joke, because you're limited to what sorts of items you can create by your craft and/or profession skill (see magic item creation). Which means you get a severely watered down version of the item creation feats as you can only craft a very tiny subset of items.For example, a Fighter with Craft (Armosmithing) and Master Craftsman and Craft Wondrous Item can only make magical armor-things, but is pretty much screwed if he wants to craft elixirs, feather tokens, cloaks, rings, amulets, bags of holding, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
That's why Master Craftsman is awful.
Yes, because the only point of Pathfinder is to optimize. Clearly a Role-Playing Game should not have any actual roleplaying. I'm changing my answer from earlier in the thread. The reason no one takes Master Craftsman is because they're so focused on optimizing that they don't look at less optimal but more thematic options.
Unless someone is playing a very feat intensive build (which I admit is possible) fighters have tons of feats and can afford to spend a few on things that aren't the absolutely most optimal choice. I've seen the party fighter spend a full hour trying to find a feat he actually wanted because nothing fit his build that he qualified for and he didn't want to take thing he wasn't intending to use because that's just a bigger waste. With Master Craftsman, he has a feat that fits his character, he uses regularly and he actually wanted.
Craft and Profession can both be used to make money. A fighter with craft weapons can make a masterwork longsword for 100 gp, sell it for 150 gp (at least, it depends on how the GM does bartering) and make a profit.
As for not being able to make a wide variety of items, there are plenty of games where a +1 longsword is a big deal. Allow me to elaborate with a recent game I've been in. We're playing a setting where magic is tricky to learn and understand. The amount of people capable of making enchanted items is limited to say the least. And we didn't have anyone in our party remotely interested in crafting, or built to make crafting efficient. Our best caster was a Flame Oracle focused on throwing fire and healing and nothing else. Our party also have very limited resources to buy any of any magic items. By level 5 the highest amount of gold earned by any member of the party was 4000. We also didn't receive a lot of magic items from dungeons or encounters. Sometimes a boss would have a +1 item or something. Our GM found generic +1 items boring, so he mostly made rare custom items that were very cool, but didn't show up a lot. By the time we hit level 6, the fighter had a +1 Flaming Warhammer and a Slayer had what was basically a modified amulet of mighty fists for his natural weapons. These were the best magic items in the party. When the bard got a pair of +1 Envenomed Rapiers, we thought it was the best thing ever. So yeah, when a setting is starved for magic items and the fighter is selling masterwork weapons every morning for a profit and saving for the day he can craft another enchantment onto his warhammer without having to find a third party spellcaster who would make him pay full price when we're also strapped for cash, you appreciate the Master Craftsman feat a whole lot more.
thejeff |
JJ Jordan wrote:Why don't wizards take power attack?Because they get Arcane Strike which is better in most situations because it doesn't reduce your to-hit bonuses (which is where the majority of your damage translates from overall).
Because mostly they wouldn't take Arcane Strike either, since they're not in the business of hitting things.
thejeff |
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Ashiel wrote:1. It requires you to invest ranks into a skill with no meaningful value to PCs (Craft or Profession), unlike Spellcraft.
2. It requires you to reach 5th level and burn one of your real feats.
3. Since MC only qualifies you to take feats, you have to then wait for 2 levels with effectively no feats to get a crafting feat at 7th level.
4. Your item creation is excessively limiting to the point saying all your important magic items is kind of a sick joke, because you're limited to what sorts of items you can create by your craft and/or profession skill (see magic item creation). Which means you get a severely watered down version of the item creation feats as you can only craft a very tiny subset of items.For example, a Fighter with Craft (Armosmithing) and Master Craftsman and Craft Wondrous Item can only make magical armor-things, but is pretty much screwed if he wants to craft elixirs, feather tokens, cloaks, rings, amulets, bags of holding, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
That's why Master Craftsman is awful.
Yes, because the only point of Pathfinder is to optimize. Clearly a Role-Playing Game should not have any actual roleplaying. I'm changing my answer from earlier in the thread. The reason no one takes Master Craftsman is because they're so focused on optimizing that they don't look at less optimal but more thematic options.
Unless someone is playing a very feat intensive build (which I admit is possible) fighters have tons of feats and can afford to spend a few on things that aren't the absolutely most optimal choice. I've seen the party fighter spend a full hour trying to find a feat he actually wanted because nothing fit his build that he qualified for and he didn't want to take thing he wasn't intending to use because that's just a bigger waste. With Master Craftsman, he has a feat that fits his character, he uses regularly and he actually wanted.
Craft and Profession can both be used to make money. A fighter with craft weapons can make a masterwork...
Yes, if you're in a game that ignores WBL, doesn't have access to purchase magic items and lacks any casters willing to Craft, Master Craftsman can be useful.
Overall, it would still be probably be better for the Oracle to take a few crafting feats.
Ashiel |
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Ashiel wrote:Because mostly they wouldn't take Arcane Strike either, since they're not in the business of hitting things.JJ Jordan wrote:Why don't wizards take power attack?Because they get Arcane Strike which is better in most situations because it doesn't reduce your to-hit bonuses (which is where the majority of your damage translates from overall).
Sometimes it's fun just to whack it with your stick. :P
Ashiel |
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Yes, because the only point of Pathfinder is to optimize. Clearly a Role-Playing Game should not have any actual roleplaying. I'm changing my answer from earlier in the thread. The reason no one takes Master Craftsman is because they're so focused on optimizing that they don't look at less optimal but more thematic options.
Clearly. *sarcasm*
Unless someone is playing a very feat intensive build (which I admit is possible) fighters have tons of feats and can afford to spend a few on things that aren't the absolutely most optimal choice. I've seen the party fighter spend a full hour trying to find a feat he actually wanted because nothing fit his build that he qualified for and he didn't want to take thing he wasn't intending to use because that's just a bigger waste. With Master Craftsman, he has a feat that fits his character, he uses regularly and he actually wanted.
Unless you're breaking the rules, it's unlikely that he really uses it "regularly" since it limits you to such an extremely limited subset of items based on your craft skill. That said, all Fighter builds are feat intensive. They have to make up for a gross loss of class features, struggling to remain relative. >_>
Those feats aren't free. They're trying their best to make up for the utter waste of space that you are and trying to prove that the druid's animal companion doesn't replace you. Your non-bonus feats are at a premium since they're the only way you'll pick up feats like Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes.
Craft and Profession can both be used to make money. A fighter with craft weapons can make a masterwork longsword for 100 gp, sell it for 150 gp (at least, it depends on how the GM does bartering) and make a profit.
Of course it takes the Fighter with 20 ranks in Craft, a +10 skill elixir (costing 250 gp), +2 masterwork tools, a 30 Intelligence, and +6 Skill Focus (Craft), TWO WEEKS (three without Skill Focus or elixir) to craft the masterwork component of a masterwork weapon. That's basically assuming that the Fighter is 20th level and is the best damn swordsmith in the entire artifice-gods-forsaken world.
Given that 50 gp is 1/17,600th of the Fighter's wealth, just barely enough to purchase a single CL 1 potion of cure light wounds, forgive me if I'm not awestruck by the awesomeness that is making money with Craft/Profession! Behold the roooorrrrrpwaaaaaaying~! *ahhhhh sound effects*
Look man, let's make a deal. You don't talk about my roleplaying, and I won't talk about your mother, and we can all be happy. Right?
Bob_Loblaw |
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Yes, because the only point of Pathfinder is to optimize. Clearly a Role-Playing Game should not have any actual roleplaying. I'm changing my answer from earlier in the thread. The reason no one takes Master Craftsman is because they're so focused on optimizing that they don't look at less optimal but more thematic options.
It's not about optimization. It's about not choosing an option that undermines your character in several areas. I always make choices that aren't purely optimal but I also don't forget that I need to survive. There are lots of feats that fighters qualify for but don't take because it would be undermining their character. For example, they can take Still Spell. That may be a good choice if they plan on going for a sorcerer later but it isn't the best choice for the fighter in general. In specific builds it may be a good idea but most of the time it's not. Ashiel covered the issues pretty well. The feat needs a rewrite to be made more useful.
master_marshmallow |
kamenhero25 wrote:Yes, because the only point of Pathfinder is to optimize. Clearly a Role-Playing Game should not have any actual roleplaying. I'm changing my answer from earlier in the thread. The reason no one takes Master Craftsman is because they're so focused on optimizing that they don't look at less optimal but more thematic options.Clearly. *sarcasm*
Quote:Unless someone is playing a very feat intensive build (which I admit is possible) fighters have tons of feats and can afford to spend a few on things that aren't the absolutely most optimal choice. I've seen the party fighter spend a full hour trying to find a feat he actually wanted because nothing fit his build that he qualified for and he didn't want to take thing he wasn't intending to use because that's just a bigger waste. With Master Craftsman, he has a feat that fits his character, he uses regularly and he actually wanted.Unless you're breaking the rules, it's unlikely that he really uses it "regularly" since it limits you to such an extremely limited subset of items based on your craft skill. That said, all Fighter builds are feat intensive. They have to make up for a gross loss of class features, struggling to remain relative. >_>
Those feats aren't free. They're trying their best to make up for the utter waste of space that you are and trying to prove that the druid's animal companion doesn't replace you. Your non-bonus feats are at a premium since they're the only way you'll pick up feats like Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes.
Quote:Craft and Profession can both be used to make money. A fighter with craft weapons can make a masterwork longsword for 100 gp, sell it for 150 gp (at least, it depends on how the GM does bartering) and make a profit.Of course it takes the Fighter with 20 ranks in Craft, a +10 skill elixir (costing 250 gp), +2 masterwork tools, a 30 Intelligence, and +6 Skill Focus (Craft), TWO WEEKS (three without Skill Focus or elixir) to craft the...
Your math is off.
Kudaku |
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[Ashiel's] math is off.
Well, let's see.
10 (Take 10) +3 (Trained) + 20 (ranks) +10 (skill elixir) +2 (masterwork tools) +10 (intelligence) +6 (skill focus) = a craft check of 61 each week.
Normally we multiply the craft result (61) with the DC check (mw weapons are DC 20), which gives us a total of 1220 SP worth of work done. Using this approach the weapon would be done in three weeks. However, since our craft modifier is very high indeed we can use Accelerated Crafting, increasing the DC by +10 to 30. Then we get 61 * 30 = 1830 SP, which means the item is done after about twelve days worth of work. Ashiel's math appears to be sound?
Clearly you have not read the thread, please do that before offering insult.
While I agree that Ashiel is rehashing material we've already debated for a while now, his analysis is fairly accurate.
@Ashiel I think people are likely to take your arguments more seriously if you come on a little less strong - up until now we've had a perfectly civil debate outlining the problematic aspects of Master Craftsman and discussing various house rules to help overcome them. You are very much kicking down open doors at the moment.
Rhedyn |
I rule the feat that you have to use the skill when making the item (mechanically, as in craft skill in place of spellcraft), but that doesn't mean the mundane item has to made using the skill.
For example, I would let craft(alchemy) make any wondrous item or weapon because I see it as imbue magical properties via alchemy.
It is also important to note that Mastercraftman does not say the mundane item being enchanted has to be made by you, so a craft(weapons) can still make a masterwork longsword she bought magical with her master craftsman and create magic arms and armor feats.
I would even let craft(weapons) make any wondrous item as long as the crafter is question justified what makes it a weapon (this belt uses leather just like a hilt)(this cloak of resistance is specially designed to work with a greatsword)(ect.)
Weirdo |
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Didn't we agree upthread that that's distinctly not the intent of the feat?
Also, some fighters may indeed take Master Craftsman for roleplaying reasons - even some non-fighter martials. I played in a campaign where a ronin samurai took it, and that was even with a houserule in place that made crafting much less profitable.
But it's not a common choice because it's mechanically bad in most campaigns with standard WBL and crafting casters in the party.
If you just want to roleplay a fighter-weaponsmith, it's less costly to stick with mundane crafting and skip the feat investment.
Rhedyn |
kamenhero25 |
Unless you're breaking the rules, it's unlikely that he really uses it "regularly" since it limits you to such an extremely limited subset of items based on your craft skill. That said, all Fighter builds are feat intensive. They have to make up for a gross loss of class features, struggling to remain relative. >_>
Those feats aren't free. They're trying their best to make up for the utter waste of space that you are and trying to prove that the druid's animal companion doesn't replace you. Your non-bonus feats are at a premium since they're the only way you'll pick up feats like Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes.
1. No one has an animal companion. We all find it stupid that fighters are worse than the druid's pet wolf, so we have a tendency to not take classes or not build to be the most powerful spell caster ever so other people stay relevant. People can build to have fun as opposed to having the best numbers. That was the point of my 'roleplaying' comment earlier, which you apparently didn't get.
2. Our fighter is easily tied for highest damage output in the party, right along with the natural weapon build slayer and the archer inquisitor. And he still took crafting feats and abilities, so no, he doesn't need every single feat to be useful.Of course it takes the Fighter with 20 ranks in Craft, a +10 skill elixir (costing 250 gp), +2 masterwork tools, a 30 Intelligence, and +6 Skill Focus (Craft), TWO WEEKS (three without Skill Focus or elixir) to craft the masterwork component of a masterwork weapon. That's basically assuming that the Fighter is 20th level and is the best damn swordsmith in the entire artifice-gods-forsaken world.
Given that 50 gp is 1/17,600th of the Fighter's wealth, just barely enough to purchase a single CL 1 potion of cure light wounds, forgive me if I'm not awestruck by the awesomeness that is making money with Craft/Profession! Behold the roooorrrrrpwaaaaaaying~! *ahhhhh sound effects*
Look man, let's make a deal. You don't talk about my roleplaying, and I won't talk about your mother, and we can all be happy. Right?
Sure, I won't talk about your roleplaying, you just have to actually read my entire post before you complain about me being wrong when I'm not.
1. We're level 8 by now and he has the other feat he needs. I was stating the condition of the campaign when he took Master Craftsman, not how we are now. He fully intends to make his hammer a stronger weapon without the need of a wizard to help, he's just waiting to have enough gold to do so and for the GM to let him, since the hammer is part of his backstory that they've worked out together.
2. Our GM HOUSERULED crafting times because he found it extremely annoying that there are skills that players never use, so he adjusted the rules to make it more viable for players to use skills like Craft. He also lets people use Profession and Preform to make money during down time, combined Climb and Swim into Athletics, which is basically Acrobatics but Strength based, and a few other things.
3. He has Craft (Blacksmith) which the GM rules allows him to make weapons and armor and other things and he can apply the Master Craftsman feat, and therefore all parts of Craft Magic Arms and Armor, to anyway.
4. I said this, let me repeat this. WE'RE NOT GETTING WEALTH BY LEVEL. Now at level 8, we have one person at wealth by level, and that's because he's new and built to it (a paladin with a +1 Holy Longsword and a +2 Champion Breastplate and 6000 gp) but even then not allowed to get gear with all of his money, so he just has gold lying around. The second richest party member is our Bard with 3000 gp and 2 +1 Envenomed Keen Rapiers. So the fighter having a standard pay check actually made him one of the richest party members (4000 gp and a +1 Flaming Hammer). We get plenty of downtime, sometimes days or weeks at a time, and he can make more than one thing a day if we're all sitting around a city doing nothing so he can make a pretty significant profit. 50gp isn't a lot. 300 gp a day for two weeks is 4200 gp, which would have doubled his on hand gold. The only reason he didn't is because he donated the items to the crown. We had just kind of started a massive war and he wanted to help. It's complicated. (Actually, he donates a lot of items to people in need rather than selling them. He's easily the nicest guy in the party).
Perhaps this needs repeating. I understand that there are fighters that get no benefit from Master Craftsman and have no reason to take it. However, there are plenty of times when it fits a character concept and can be useful to the party for a fighter to have the ability to craft magic items. Especially when our casters are: a tengu bard swordsman with no interest or knowledge of crafting, an aasimar inquisitor archer with no interest or knowledge in crafting, a human paladin with no interest or knowledge in crafting, and a kitsune flame oracle with no interest or knowledge in crafting. Buy magic items involves scouring an entire major trading city, then paying obscene amounts because of the rarity of the items. The party had to pool their wealth to pay 10000 gp for a +2 Belt of Dexterity for the archer because of hope valuable an item that rare is.
We have three options for magic items:
1. Pay through the nose.
2. Wait for rare drops from boss enemies.
3. Let the fighter craft.
Does that make my point of sometimes it fits a character theme and can still be useful more clear? Because I'm not saying all fighters should take it and its the most awesome thing ever. I'm saying that it's not that bad and that people have options outside of 'what makes me the best ever at combat?'.
@Ashiel I think people are likely to take your arguments more seriously if you come on a little less strong - up until now we've had a perfectly civil debate outlining the problematic aspects of Master Craftsman and discussing various house rules to help overcome them. You are very much kicking down open doors at the moment.
This. I wouldn't have a personal problem with your opinion if you hadn't jumped into this thread and started shouting about optimization like you were automatically right by virtue to simply being there. Your wording grates on me and I find it offensive. Both that picking feats to be better in combat is above pick things that make sense for a character to have in his backstory and roleplay and the fact that you're treating me like an idiot because I'm not using RAW when I clearly said my example was from a homebrew campaign with houserules.
I'm done with this, because I have no interest in perpetuating this fight on a formerly civil thread. My apologies to everyone else that witnessed this.
Ashiel |
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@Ashiel I think people are likely to take your arguments more seriously if you come on a little less strong - up until now we've had a perfectly civil debate outlining the problematic aspects of Master Craftsman and discussing various house rules to help overcome them. You are very much kicking down open doors at the moment.
Noted. However, in all fairness, I'd like to point something out.
Because Master Craftsman is a trap. You're mistaken when you say things like "access to all your important magic items at half cost" because this simply isn't true. Let's break it down a bit and look at why MC is terrible.
1. It requires you to invest ranks into a skill with no meaningful value to PCs (Craft or Profession), unlike Spellcraft.
2. It requires you to reach 5th level and burn one of your real feats.
3. Since MC only qualifies you to take feats, you have to then wait for 2 levels with effectively no feats to get a crafting feat at 7th level.
4. Your item creation is excessively limiting to the point saying all your important magic items is kind of a sick joke, because you're limited to what sorts of items you can create by your craft and/or profession skill (see magic item creation). Which means you get a severely watered down version of the item creation feats as you can only craft a very tiny subset of items.For example, a Fighter with Craft (Armosmithing) and Master Craftsman and Craft Wondrous Item can only make magical armor-things, but is pretty much screwed if he wants to craft elixirs, feather tokens, cloaks, rings, amulets, bags of holding, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
That's why Master Craftsman is awful.
Compare to a Ranger or Paladin who simply meet the CL requirements at 7th level automatically and have Spellcraft as a class skill. 100% of Rangers I make pick up Craft Wondrous & Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and even if I dumped Int to 7 during generation (a likely prospect) they will be very competent at crafting stuff because the DCs aren't so high. And they didn't have to vomit feats down the toilet to do it.
I responded to the OP with my reasoning as to why people don't use this feat on Fighters (or anyone else). For the classes that would want it, it's a bad feat. For the other 60-70% of the classes it's unneeded and unwanted. No hostility to be found.
If you ignore the recent FAQ (which changes periodically because it's not actually rules), the best core method for crafting as a Fighter is to be a gnome. Gnomes are naturally magical and get a caster level via their racial qualities which qualifies them for item creation feats. In a non-CRB game, aasimar and tieflings are decent for that sort of thing too.
God only knows where those outsiders like Ghaeles are getting their +2 holy swords from now since suddenly outsiders can't make magic items anymore if you follow the FAQ. *snickers*
JJ Jordan wrote:Why don't wizards take power attack?Because they get Arcane Strike which is better in most situations because it doesn't reduce your to-hit bonuses (which is where the majority of your damage translates from overall).
thejeff wrote:Because mostly they wouldn't take Arcane Strike either, since they're not in the business of hitting things.Sometimes it's fun just to whack it with your stick. :P
Then...
Ashiel wrote:1st postYes, because the only point of Pathfinder is to optimize. Clearly a Role-Playing Game should not have any actual roleplaying.
Shots fired...
SQUEAKY WHEEL GETS THE KICK! >:D
That said my math was indeed off a bit. I forgot the base DC was 20 for masterwork and was using the base DC of 15 for a martial weapon with the +10 for accelerating it, though the end result is still the same (two weeks to make a mwk sword as what may as well be the avatar of the god of swordsmithing). So while it was off, it wasn't off enough to matter and I appreciate your noticing. :)
On the Subject of Roleplaying
Just so nobody else feels the need to start attacking other peoples' roleplaying, I'd like to point out that just because someone is talking about a mechanical thing on the forums does not mean that they are not interested in roleplaying. We mostly discuss the game, whereas roleplaying is more a thing that happens at the table and/or concept boards for a character. It's a mostly intangible thing. Here is some copy-pasta from my skype with names changed to protect the innocent.
[12/13/2014 1:32:19 AM] Ashiel: Really? :o
[12/13/2014 1:32:30 AM] Ashiel: Why so? o_o
[12/13/2014 1:32:39 AM] AwesomeLevel9001: Yeah. Your games are the most fun ones I've played :o
[12/13/2014 1:32:41 AM] Ashiel: Like, what's different about it? :o
[12/13/2014 1:32:45 AM] Ashiel: Really? O_O
[12/13/2014 1:32:49 AM] Ashiel: Out of /all/ of them?
[12/13/2014 1:32:49 AM] AwesomeLevel9001: The tier list is Your Games > Other Games
[12/13/2014 1:32:55 AM] AwesomeLevel9001: Yeah.
[12/13/2014 1:32:55 AM] Ashiel: XD *blushes*
[12/13/2014 1:33:56 AM] AwesomeLevel9001: :3
[12/13/2014 1:34:57 AM] Ashiel: In all seriousness though, I've never seen your other games, so I'm not sure what the major differences are. Can you identify them? :o
[12/13/2014 1:35:36 AM] Ashiel: Ashiel is always ready to take notes on what he's doing right and doing wrong. (p.o) *monacle face*
[12/13/2014 1:38:08 AM] AwesomeLevel9001: Well, your stories, and especially conversations with your NPCs always seem incredibly deep and well thought out. I've had lots of GMs that consider that kind of thing an after thought, or improvise... poorly.
[12/13/2014 1:40:09 AM] Ashiel:*more blushes* (*^.^*)
[12/13/2014 1:41:21 AM | Edited 1:41:33 AM] AwesomeLevel9001: Also, you're really good with rules, which I really appreciate. It helps keep the game running smoothly when as many people as possible are really aware of what's going on, and I can trust you to create original content on the NPC side that's balanced. Plus, you come up with lots of interesting ideas (the gravity armor is super cool, it's a good sign of you design an armor and someone's first reaction is "i want dat") for items, characters, encounters, and stories (you took a rather simple high concept of "rooting out a slaver organization" and made it more interesting with the different fronts and shops, and the cross-country organization and such).
I value that hot sexy mechanical stuff so much more than roleplaying that I write journals written in a combination of d20 results and binary as a tone-setter for my PCs, and write these super mechanics-heavy handouts for the PCs in my games. My hatred of roleplaying and character drives runs so deeply that I most certainly never wrote a NSFW slashfic about on of my PCs and her psicrystal/mentor purely on the basis that the other players in the group were shipping them and wanted to read more about the characters and their hot +1 on +2 action (which if such a thing existed would require a PM since it would be in bad form to post Ashiel's of fifty shades of gay on the boards, because those +1s and +2s and morale bonuses probably shouldn't be read by anyone younger than puberty).
I guess what I'm getting at is...it seems really stupid to feel obligated to provide a PhD in Roleplaying before people feel it's okay for you to criticize a feat in the game for being bad. Making snide remarks about roleplaying in this situation is about as meaningful as insulting my mother for the same reason. It's just dumb.
We could talk about homebrew. In the game that I wrote the newspaper for, the campaign was very unusual in terms of WBL/magic availability, item creation feats were removed, and I revised the Craft mechanics so that skills were used to collect material components for magical items, craft magic items, and improve magic items. As a result, true magicians were rare but finding someone who understood how to weave simple magics into cloth or brew a magical ointment were more commonplace. One of the NPCs the party met was a young woman posing as a male alchemist in a small town by day, who was gravedigging and researching the secrets of life/death by night because she was continuing the research her grandfather started years ago in his quest to create a cure for death. She was the expert class.
thejeff |
6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ashiel wrote:Unless you're breaking the rules, it's unlikely that he really uses it "regularly" since it limits you to such an extremely limited subset of items based on your craft skill.
Of course it takes the Fighter with 20 ranks in Craft, a +10 skill elixir (costing 250 gp), +2 masterwork tools, a 30 Intelligence, and +6 Skill Focus (Craft), TWO WEEKS (three without Skill Focus or elixir) to craft the masterwork component of a masterwork weapon. That's basically assuming that the Fighter is 20th level and is the best damn swordsmith in the entire artifice-gods-forsaken world.
We have three options for magic items:
1. Pay through the nose.
2. Wait for rare drops from boss enemies.
3. Let the fighter craft.Does that make my point of sometimes it fits a character theme and can still be useful more clear? Because I'm not saying all fighters should take it and its the most awesome thing ever. I'm saying that it's not that bad and that people have options outside of 'what makes me the best ever at combat?'.
Thing is, you are breaking the rules. Or house ruling them, more accurately.
It's not that "it's not that bad and that people have options outside of 'what makes me the best ever at combat?'", it's that you have house rules and a specific situation that makes it much better than it would be in a more standard game. Not just the house ruled crafting, but the low income and lack of magic to buy.
And even then, it would still be better if the casters in party were willing to craft instead.
Ashiel |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Thing is, you are breaking the rules. Or house ruling them, more accurately.
It's not that "it's not that bad and that people have options outside of 'what makes me the best ever at combat?'", it's that you have house rules and a specific situation that makes it much better than it would be in a more standard game. Not just the house ruled crafting, but the low income and lack of magic to buy.
And even then, it would still be better if the casters in party were willing to craft instead.
Quoted for truth. When you rebuild the game around an option, the option can gain or decrease in value. Fighters were notoriously bad in 3.5, but in 3.0 they had more going for them (haste allowed move + full attack, weapon size rules were fighter-friendly, keen + improved critical stacked, feats like whirlwind attack + cleave functioned together, etc). From 3.0 -> 3.5, Fighters weren't changed at all. In the 3.5 previews, they gave the fighter as an example of a class that worked well/as intended that would be seeing little to no changes while the barbarian, ranger, druid, bard, and paladin received more tweaking.
Except Fighters were awful in 3.5 (and still are) because the game changed around them and the things that they could rely on were stripped. In 3.0, it was nothing for a Fighter to have a threat range on their primary and off-hand weapon of 12-20/x2, weapon focus/specialization applying to both your 1-handed main and light off-hand weapon, and to be able to activate their boots of speed for a round to move up to double their speed as a move action and full-attack an enemy (and they would have dodge & mobility to make it easier since it was a prerequisite for whirlwind attack). Whirlwind attack + cleave was moderately good at wiping summoned adds trying to mob you and getting some extra hits in occasionally (since you could whirlwind to finish off weakened enemies and then channel your cleaves into a more serious target), especially combined with your high crit-% (meaning you would frequently be critting for roughly 40 damage to multiple foes, and if you dropped any of them, you got additional attacks at your highest boneses).
Again, Fighters didn't change, the game did. They still had their problems in 3.0, but they were at least pretty darn good at actually being a mobile meatgrinder (so you got your casters to buff you up and you ran in and wrecked much face (^v^)).
Ashiel |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This. I wouldn't have a personal problem with your opinion if you hadn't jumped into this thread and started shouting about optimization like you were automatically right by virtue to simply being there. Your wording grates on me and I find it offensive. Both that picking feats to be better in combat is above pick things that make sense for a character to have in his backstory and roleplay and the fact that you're treating me like an idiot because I'm not using RAW when I clearly said my example was from a homebrew campaign with houserules.
And I didn't say anything to you, about you, your game, or optimization. You took it upon yourself to get offended, by a post not directed at you, not concerning you, not talking about your homebrew, not talking about your backstory, etc. It wasn't even talking about optimization. It was a simple criticism of a feat as an explanation for why the feat isn't very widely used based on the virtues of the feat itself.
You wanted to be butt hurt. You were the one who said anything about optimization, you were the one who said anything about roleplaying. I'm not even sure where you think I jumped into the thread and started shouting. I quoted the only five posts I had made in the thread, not one of which reads even remotely similar to what you describe.
You want to talk about offensive? Having some dude just randomly start a fight with you, implying you were a bad roleplayer, and getting upset because you did...nothing. Based on...nothing. Why? Did I travel back in time and kick your puppy along with the door Kudaku was talking about?
Nicos |
Yes, because the only point of Pathfinder is to optimize. Clearly a Role-Playing Game should not have any actual roleplaying.
If it is for roleplaying and having a having a more rounded character, then I prefer to not waste a skill in craft and use it for something more character defining like bluff or sense motive.