So, I've got a person who thinks Slashing / Fencing Grace is OP...


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Oh no! Dex to damage! How OP!

Whereas we have wizards who have Int to everything

As well as sorcerors who have cha to everything

And clerics with wis to everything

Better ban those too. They can't be able to do anything with their primary stats.


Omnitricks wrote:

Oh no! Dex to damage! How OP!

Whereas we have wizards who have Int to everything

As well as sorcerors who have cha to everything

And clerics with wis to everything

Better ban those too. They can't be able to do anything with their primary stats.

Hence why my solution is to give out dex to damage in one or two feats and insert some more strength options. Now all the martials get to be OP. Well sorta.


Jodokai wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
I'm in a 15th level Rise of the Runelords game right now and our wizard is routinely shutting down encounters with spells like Dazing Spell Ball Lightning. Clearly your gameplay experience is different from mine, but I can assure you that spellcasters ending encounters with a single spell is not a myth. Please don't be so quick to dismiss other's gameplay experiences because they don't conform to your expectations.

How many times per day does he do this?

EDIT: And if Dazing monsters for 1 round shuts down an entire encounter, the Wizard isn't doing it alone.

If the other people are optimized the enemy is dead before they are undazed. Shutting the fight down does not have to mean you killed anyone. It just means you put the fight into "mop up" mode.


Magda Luckbender wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


I read your previous post and it seems you have no problem with a slower and weaker person winning if they have skill. You just feel like a -7 in strength is too feeble to reliably win. Is that correct?

I feel that 7 STR should still be imposing penalties. That's barely strong enough to hold a sword without shaking. I'm 100% fine with DEX replacing STR for bonuses, but I feel like that low STR should impose the usual penalties. This is similar to requiring minimum 10 STR as prerequisite for DEX-to-Damage to work right, since optimizers would all take a 10 STR. There's no game-balance reason for this, so I actually approve of the current DEX-To-Damage rules, from a game design perspective. It just rubs me wrong.

It seems grossly unfair to quibble about such things, while the spellcasters stand on the side and crack jokes about those who like to hit things with pointy sticks.

7 str is a lot more than is needed to hold a sword.

7 str = 23 pounds as a light load. Even a greatsword is not going to be 23 pounds.

In addition some races have an inherent -2 to strength meaning a high percentage of that race only has an 8. I don't think 8 is really all that far from a 7. Actually if their low stat non-heroic stat falls on the natural weakness they are starting with a 6. There is 1/6 chance or 16.7% chance.

PS: I feel the same way about low charisma too. Maybe I should start a thread about how low is too low and point out how races with a -2 are functioning with almost 17% of their society sitting on a 6 on a stat.


wraithstrike wrote:
If the other people are optimized the enemy is dead before they are undazed.

If you've got four rounds of complete safety to finish them off, you don't really need to be optimized. A martial character is a useful ally to a high level dazing caster, but it barely matters what his build is. Dex-based? Strength-based? Who cares?


Matthew Downie wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
If the other people are optimized the enemy is dead before they are undazed.
If you've got four rounds of complete safety to finish them off, you don't really need to be optimized.

I agree.


Can't say that multiclassing + two feats is the optimal choice for many characters. Though it does open up for less MAD in some cases. But Dervish Dancer is still better.

Remember that the only finessable weapon outside of swashbuckler class that works with Slashing Grace is a whip, that does nonleathal damage unless you spend even more feats (one-handed refers to the category of one-handed weapons, such as longswords. Not just weapons used in one hand such as most light weapons, that are finessable).

One feat does not make a book OP. But if martials can't have nice things, go ahead and ban.

To the OP: Make your DM read the feat again and he'll see that it doesn't work for everyone. And if he wants to ban the Swashbuckler, so be it.


Why would you ever dip Swashbuckler when you could just use Fencing Grace?

Okay, I suppose if you want TWF and the GM doesn't allow Effortless Lace the dip + Sawtooth Sabres is kind of your only option... but that's about the only time.

Dark Archive

I think people underestimate just how limiting low strength is for an adventurer - I have a bit of experience, with this sorcerer character only having 5 str and having to deal with the downsides. But take 7str - 23lb light weight limit. Mithril chain shirt, at 12.5lb, is over half of your carrying capacity - and don't plan on wearing any armor until you can afford the upgrade to mithral. Assuming dual wield, you're looking at 4-6lb of sword. Want a ranged option? That light crossbow is 4lb. You've now used up your entire weight allotment - you don't even have the spare weight to carry your base gear and a haversack. At earlier levels? Forget about carrying adventuring staples like a rope or flasks for swarms. Masterwork backpack won't help, since the increase in carrying capacity is exactly offset by its extra weight - it's just a waste of gold.

Dumping strength is more of an impediment than many of you seem to realize. Even with a sorcerer, which has much less of a need for heavy gear, it's something I'm constantly having to plan around.


At earlier levels, a sorcerer can just cast Mage Armor. In fact, this is the best option, as it gives you the same AC but without the ASF of a Mithral Chain Shirt (10% after mithral).

If you truly wanted to wear armor as a DEX based character, you'd get a Haramaki. 3 gp cost, 1 lb weight, no Max Dex. Sure +1 AC isn't much at lower levels, but eventually you can upgrade it beyond Mage Armor. It's still really useful for magic classes that don't get Mage Armor but still want to go DEX based (like the Magus). It doesn't even have an Armor Check Penalty (let alone ASF), so anyone can wear it without issue.

Best armor? Best armor.

Dark Archive

I wasn't saying I was wanting to wear armor as a sorcerer - I have a Haramaki plus I can cast Mage Armor :) But even a 20 Dex character with a Haramaki is going to be fairly squishy compared to a STR based character with good armor.


That is definitely true in early levels, even up till mid really. You need like a +9 DEX modifier to break even with a Fullplate wearer.

Sovereign Court

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Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:

I think people underestimate just how limiting low strength is for an adventurer - I have a bit of experience, with this sorcerer character only having 5 str and having to deal with the downsides. But take 7str - 23lb light weight limit. Mithril chain shirt, at 12.5lb, is over half of your carrying capacity - and don't plan on wearing any armor until you can afford the upgrade to mithral. Assuming dual wield, you're looking at 4-6lb of sword. Want a ranged option? That light crossbow is 4lb. You've now used up your entire weight allotment - you don't even have the spare weight to carry your base gear and a haversack. At earlier levels? Forget about carrying adventuring staples like a rope or flasks for swarms. Masterwork backpack won't help, since the increase in carrying capacity is exactly offset by its extra weight - it's just a waste of gold.

Dumping strength is more of an impediment than many of you seem to realize. Even with a sorcerer, which has much less of a need for heavy gear, it's something I'm constantly having to plan around.

I've said this earlier in the thread.

If you're a melee who dumps strength - you're going to take the Muscle of the Society trait which makes your strength count as +2 for capacity.

For capacity a str 9 as a medium, or 7 as a small character (3/4 capacity but 1/2 the weight) is plenty high to carry all your gear at low levels without penalty.

And to those showing that a single dex weapon is lower damage than a single strength weapon? I totally agree. It's only the TWF with dex to damage which is OP.

(Though - as in every other thread - everyone is FAR overstating the value of Power Attack. It's only that good if your DM throws crappy AC critters at you all day every day.)

Sovereign Court

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Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:
I wasn't saying I was wanting to wear armor as a sorcerer - I have a Haramaki plus I can cast Mage Armor :) But even a 20 Dex character with a Haramaki is going to be fairly squishy compared to a STR based character with good armor.

Right - but eventually he can get Celestial Plate and still get a +6 dex mod to AC. A strength character's dex isn't going to be high enough to get the full advantage of it, and therefore the dex character's AC is going to be several points higher.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:

I think people underestimate just how limiting low strength is for an adventurer - I have a bit of experience, with this sorcerer character only having 5 str and having to deal with the downsides. But take 7str - 23lb light weight limit. Mithril chain shirt, at 12.5lb, is over half of your carrying capacity - and don't plan on wearing any armor until you can afford the upgrade to mithral. Assuming dual wield, you're looking at 4-6lb of sword. Want a ranged option? That light crossbow is 4lb. You've now used up your entire weight allotment - you don't even have the spare weight to carry your base gear and a haversack. At earlier levels? Forget about carrying adventuring staples like a rope or flasks for swarms. Masterwork backpack won't help, since the increase in carrying capacity is exactly offset by its extra weight - it's just a waste of gold.

Dumping strength is more of an impediment than many of you seem to realize. Even with a sorcerer, which has much less of a need for heavy gear, it's something I'm constantly having to plan around.

I've said this earlier in the thread.

If you're a melee who dumps strength - you're going to take the Muscle of the Society trait which makes your strength count as +2 for capacity.

For capacity a str 9 as a medium, or 7 as a small character (3/4 capacity but 1/2 the weight) is plenty high to carry all your gear at low levels without penalty.

And to those showing that a single dex weapon is lower damage than a single strength weapon? I totally agree. It's only the TWF with dex to damage which is OP.

(Though - as in every other thread - everyone is FAR overstating the value of Power Attack. It's only that good if your DM throws crappy AC critters at you all day every day.)

You will occasionally encounter a GM who maintains the flavor of traits, and will inquire about your connection to the Pathfinder Society. :) And a player might want to pick traits for flavor as well.


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Kalindlara wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:

I think people underestimate just how limiting low strength is for an adventurer - I have a bit of experience, with this sorcerer character only having 5 str and having to deal with the downsides. But take 7str - 23lb light weight limit. Mithril chain shirt, at 12.5lb, is over half of your carrying capacity - and don't plan on wearing any armor until you can afford the upgrade to mithral. Assuming dual wield, you're looking at 4-6lb of sword. Want a ranged option? That light crossbow is 4lb. You've now used up your entire weight allotment - you don't even have the spare weight to carry your base gear and a haversack. At earlier levels? Forget about carrying adventuring staples like a rope or flasks for swarms. Masterwork backpack won't help, since the increase in carrying capacity is exactly offset by its extra weight - it's just a waste of gold.

Dumping strength is more of an impediment than many of you seem to realize. Even with a sorcerer, which has much less of a need for heavy gear, it's something I'm constantly having to plan around.

I've said this earlier in the thread.

If you're a melee who dumps strength - you're going to take the Muscle of the Society trait which makes your strength count as +2 for capacity.

For capacity a str 9 as a medium, or 7 as a small character (3/4 capacity but 1/2 the weight) is plenty high to carry all your gear at low levels without penalty.

And to those showing that a single dex weapon is lower damage than a single strength weapon? I totally agree. It's only the TWF with dex to damage which is OP.

(Though - as in every other thread - everyone is FAR overstating the value of Power Attack. It's only that good if your DM throws crappy AC critters at you all day every day.)

You will occasionally encounter a player or GM who maintains the flavor of traits, and will inquire about your connection to the Pathfinder Society. :)

"I did a single mission for PFS, and then left."

Silver Crusade Contributor

DominusMegadeus wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:

I think people underestimate just how limiting low strength is for an adventurer - I have a bit of experience, with this sorcerer character only having 5 str and having to deal with the downsides. But take 7str - 23lb light weight limit. Mithril chain shirt, at 12.5lb, is over half of your carrying capacity - and don't plan on wearing any armor until you can afford the upgrade to mithral. Assuming dual wield, you're looking at 4-6lb of sword. Want a ranged option? That light crossbow is 4lb. You've now used up your entire weight allotment - you don't even have the spare weight to carry your base gear and a haversack. At earlier levels? Forget about carrying adventuring staples like a rope or flasks for swarms. Masterwork backpack won't help, since the increase in carrying capacity is exactly offset by its extra weight - it's just a waste of gold.

Dumping strength is more of an impediment than many of you seem to realize. Even with a sorcerer, which has much less of a need for heavy gear, it's something I'm constantly having to plan around.

I've said this earlier in the thread.

If you're a melee who dumps strength - you're going to take the Muscle of the Society trait which makes your strength count as +2 for capacity.

For capacity a str 9 as a medium, or 7 as a small character (3/4 capacity but 1/2 the weight) is plenty high to carry all your gear at low levels without penalty.

And to those showing that a single dex weapon is lower damage than a single strength weapon? I totally agree. It's only the TWF with dex to damage which is OP.

(Though - as in every other thread - everyone is FAR overstating the value of Power Attack. It's only that good if your DM throws crappy AC critters at you all day every day.)

You will occasionally encounter a player or GM who maintains the flavor of traits, and will inquire about your connection to the Pathfinder Society. :)
"I did a single mission for PFS, and then left."

Sounds... character-defining. :)


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Kalindlara wrote:
Sounds... character-defining. :)
...

As much as 'someone beat me up as a kid so I react faster'...


A carrying capacity of 9 is 30 pounds.

Celestial Plate is 25 lbs
2 sawtooth sabres is 4 lbs
1 belt of dex is 1 lb

Hopefully you never get fatigued. Or need any other gear.

Scarab Sages

graystone wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
Sounds... character-defining. :)

...

As much as 'someone beat me up as a kid so I react faster'...

Perhaps even more so, but I'm not sure that's really the point. Sometimes someone might want to play a character with a different trait because traits don't have the flexibility of fluff that a lot of other things have on a character sheet. They are "more" defined than other things. But, as has been pointed out, this isn't insurmountable.

However, saying that every melee character that dumps strength will take the trait is dismissive of how traits work.

With that said, I feel like this thread has adequately pointed out that you can play strength or dexterity-based melee characters fine. They can do comparable damage if you know what you're doing, and they can both be horrible if you don't. Then again, I'm also quite confident that calling melee "overpowered" in any version of DnD is misleading at best.


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Andy Ferguson wrote:

A carrying capacity of 9 is 30 pounds.

Celestial Plate is 25 lbs
2 sawtooth sabres is 4 lbs
1 belt of dex is 1 lb

Hopefully you never get fatigued. Or need any other gear.

If you can afford Celestial Plate, you can afford to give your caster buddy a level 1 Pearl of Power in exchange for them casting Ant Haul on you once a day.

Silver Crusade Contributor

graystone wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
Sounds... character-defining. :)
...
As much as 'someone beat me up as a kid so I react faster'...

Yeah, I don't really like the fluff for Reactionary. I almost never take it unless I have a character who I think really fits the profile. It complements the Nervous drawback beautifully, though.

I almost always try to find the most thematic trait, unless something is drastically necessary. Thus far, the only one that meets that qualification has been Magical Knack, and it still bothers me. I wish they'd given us Practiced Spellcaster...

As a result, Wayang Spell Hunter is generally not available in my campaigns. I personally wouldn't let it stack with Magical Lineage anyway, although my position is not explicitly RAW. I also banned Persistent Spell and Dazing Spell, though, and so far nobody's complained. (As GM, I don't use them either.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matthew Downie wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:

A carrying capacity of 9 is 30 pounds.

Celestial Plate is 25 lbs
2 sawtooth sabres is 4 lbs
1 belt of dex is 1 lb

Hopefully you never get fatigued. Or need any other gear.

If you can afford Celestial Plate, you can afford to give your caster buddy a level 1 Pearl of Power in exchange for them casting Ant Haul on you once a day.

Unless I missed a beat, Celestial Plate ain't exactly core material. It's from one of the Curse of the Crimson Throne modules, which was still written under 3.5 rules.


tl;dr If you throw gobs of money and feats at it, dexterity can potentially become more powerful than two handing... after most games are over.

Sounds totally overpowered doesn't it? /sarcasm


ShroudedInLight wrote:

His reasoning is that Dexterity is the best stat in the game and effects too many things to be allowed to be easily applied to damage early game.

AKA: That the two feats are worth the Touch AC, Initiative, Reflex Saves, and Dex skills boost. I don't think this is the case, either early game or later on. However, they might be...I just don't think they are meaningful compared to Power Attack and the 1/2 bonus to damage from two handing.

This is the crux of the argument and (supposedly) the official reason Paizo gives so much push-back to dex-to-damage.

It's based on the assumption that AC matters.

When you factor in the existence of a max dex bonus for armor, the exponential difficulty in raising any ability score (especially Dex) beyond a certain amount, and the fact that your touch AC is STILL bad even when it is good, AC is rapidly outstripped by attack bonus. The things you fight will have higher strength and greater BAB rather quickly. At lower levels the allies you fight next to are wearing much better armor. Any game I have ever played; the monk and the rogue have the lowest ACs in the party.

Reflex saves? Less relevant than resistance or fort/will saves (since those can actually kill you instantly). If that's still a big deal, you've got me there.

Initiative? Only REALLY matters in rocket-tag, in which case dex-to-damage is irrelevant because anyone worried about doing hit point damage did not bring a rocket-launcher and has already lost. Any other situation a properly-balanced combat is supposed to last a few rounds, and going first just means going first.

Silver Crusade Contributor

magnuskn wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:

A carrying capacity of 9 is 30 pounds.

Celestial Plate is 25 lbs
2 sawtooth sabres is 4 lbs
1 belt of dex is 1 lb

Hopefully you never get fatigued. Or need any other gear.

If you can afford Celestial Plate, you can afford to give your caster buddy a level 1 Pearl of Power in exchange for them casting Ant Haul on you once a day.
Unless I missed a beat, Celestial Plate ain't exactly core material. It's from one of the Curse of the Crimson Throne modules, which was still written under 3.5 rules.

I was going to say this. Much like guided weapons, in fact. Although not quite as lazy a design. I made them both uncreatable... although I did give a guided called starknife to the cleric in my Carrion Crown group as a gift from Desna.

One of my biggest issues with item creation feats, thematically, is that you automatically know how to craft anything. This came up in Reign of Winter, when my Ulfen witch was going to create a machete of clearing for the party's Viking. (Neither of us have ever been anywhere near Sargava.)


Matthew Downie wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:

A carrying capacity of 9 is 30 pounds.

Celestial Plate is 25 lbs
2 sawtooth sabres is 4 lbs
1 belt of dex is 1 lb

Hopefully you never get fatigued. Or need any other gear.

If you can afford Celestial Plate, you can afford to give your caster buddy a level 1 Pearl of Power in exchange for them casting Ant Haul on you once a day.

For 4000gp you can add Burdenless to armor for +50% carry. 2000gp adds muleback to any cloak for +8 strength to carry. A minor bag of holding is 1000gp. Several spells like floating disc and ant haul are long lasting and help carry things. Pets, AC, mounts and beasts of burden can carry non-combat items. A trait adds +2 str for carry. There is no reason carry should be an issue.

aptinuviel wrote:
graystone wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
Sounds... character-defining. :)

...

As much as 'someone beat me up as a kid so I react faster'...

Perhaps even more so, but I'm not sure that's really the point. Sometimes someone might want to play a character with a different trait because traits don't have the flexibility of fluff that a lot of other things have on a character sheet. They are "more" defined than other things. But, as has been pointed out, this isn't insurmountable.

However, saying that every melee character that dumps strength will take the trait is dismissive of how traits work.

More dismisive of how you choose to play with them. Anyone complaining they can't carry enough shouldn't complain if they don't take the avalible resourses to mitigate the issue. If they take 'fluff' over 'crunch', that's up to them. Myself, I've never had a DM look twice at the trait or ask how I'm tied to the PFS. In fact, I've had my AC/mount take additional traits feat to pick it up and my animal friend didn't have to explain how he learned it...

Kalindlara wrote:

Yeah, I don't really like the fluff for Reactionary. I almost never take it unless I have a character who I think really fits the profile. It complements the Nervous drawback beautifully, though.

I almost always try to find the most thematic trait, unless something is drastically necessary. Thus far, the only one that meets that qualification has been Magical Knack, and it still bothers me. I wish they'd given us Practiced Spellcaster...

As a result, Wayang Spell Hunter is generally not available in my campaigns. I personally wouldn't let it stack with Magical Lineage anyway, although my position is not explicitly RAW. I also banned Persistent Spell and Dazing Spell, though, and so far nobody's complained. (As GM, I don't use them either.)

I don't see people following the exact fluff very often. There are dozens of reasons for reactionary or Muscle or ect... I see no reason to be limited to the one idea that they gave as an example. This is even more evident in games NOT based in Golorian.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Did your animal companion have 3 Int? They're supposed to only take certain feats. You could be houseruling, though. Nothing wrong with that. :)

Edit: I do refluff way more heavily outside of Golarion. At that point, though, I might just design a new trait.


Kalindlara wrote:
Did your animal companion have 3 Int? They're supposed to only take certain feats. You could be houseruling, though. Nothing wrong with that. :)

Yep, Worg's start with a 6. ;)

Kalindlara wrote:
Edit: I do refluff way more heavily outside of Golarion. At that point, though, I might just design a new trait.

*shrug* Why reinvent the wheel? The traits are already spread out in the different categories and the mechanics are already done. I'd rather slap on a new coat of paint instead of building them from scratch.

Overall, we take traits that mechanically make sense and come up with fluff to fit instead of taking traits that have a fluff fit and may make NO mechanial sense.

As far as your issue with the machete of clearing, call it whatever the local tool is for clearing brush and undergrowth. At it's base, it's just a shortsword and I assume you both have seen those. And you've seen plants. Myself, I'm not seeing why you WOULDN'T/SHOULDN't know how to make it.

Silver Crusade Contributor

The machete was just an example. No matter how obscure the item, a character with the feat knows how to make it, and with nothing but a pile of gold coins.

I don't really have a huge problem with this, and I'm probably going to craft the machete for him at some point. I was just amused by all this, especially since most feats are so limited. Look how hard it is to finesse a weapon effectively... :)


Kalindlara wrote:

The machete was just an example. No matter how obscure the item, a character with the feat knows how to make it, and with nothing but a pile of gold coins.

I don't really have a huge problem with this, and I'm probably going to craft the machete for him at some point. I was just amused by all this, especially since most feats are so limited. Look how hard it is to finesse a weapon effectively... :)

A pile of gold AND spellcraft. The skill is LITERALLY covering what you are worried about.

"Spellcraft (Int; Trained Only)

You are skilled at the art of casting spells, identifying magic items, crafting magic items, and identifying spells as they are being cast."

Sovereign Court

boring7 wrote:
Any game I have ever played; the monk and the rogue have the lowest ACs in the party.

Then every monk you have ever played with is bad.

Past level 4ish, a monk should nearly always have the highest AC in the party (With the high level exception of a wild-shaped druid.)

They have issues offensively with accuracy because while practically full BAB (especially now with pummeling charge) nearly every actually full BAB class has additional accuracy beyond a monk's. (smite/weapon training/favored enemy etc) But they have NO issues defensively.

A good rogue will have an AC similar to a two-handed fighter. (And they should be higher when they land a sneak attack with offensive defense.)

Scarab Sages

Mileage May vary due to FAQ, but if going what devs are hoping to decide on (still deciding for quite some time), then Offensive Defense is unstackable sneak bonus on target of Sneak Attack versus attacks of Sneak Attack target.


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Dex to Damage in melee is awful. Any game I GM, I never have and never will allow it. I don't think it's balanced: It isn't badly unbalanced in terms of the fight, but Dex characters also have much more out of combat use due to Dex skills.

Not only is Dex good for many more things than Str is, but I also care about combat being as realistic as possible. Of course, magic, dragons, etc. don't exist in real life and so have their own rules.

But, weight classes are needed in every martial art because the big strong guy will always beat an equally skilled small quick guy. No 120 pounders win Heavyweight championships in MMA or boxing.

"Not with fencing!" someone will say; but that's about touches, and Dex to touch AC is fine. If fencers used bladed swords and tried to rip flesh off each other, stronger ones would be much more effective.

"Realism? With magic, dragons, etc.?" might be argued. That introduces unreal things into the world, but physical combat should be like physical combat.

"Stat consolidation" is awful, too. Everyone should face tradeoffs. Every class, including full casters, should be MAD. The primary casting stat should only determine what stat you need to cast spells of a given level. Otherwise, save DC should always be Cha based (sheer power), bonus spells per day Int based (remembering more spells), and all concentration checks Wis based.

So all mental stats would affect all casters, too (who actually already need some Dex and Con to avoid being too easy to kill if someone can get into melee with them).

There should always be tradeoffs, and everyone should have weaknesses that are relevant and have to choose among them.

"Agile" weapons bother me much less than Dex-to-Damage feats, btw, because on the realism front they're magical and could have properties that don't make sense physically. Still, I think they should be (and if I GM they are) +2 properties of weapons, not +1.


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Oly wrote:

Dex to Damage in melee is awful. Any game I GM, I never have and never will allow it. I don't think it's balanced: It isn't badly unbalanced in terms of the fight, but Dex characters also have much more out of combat use due to Dex skills.

Not only is Dex good for many more things than Str is, but I also care about combat being as realistic as possible. Of course, magic, dragons, etc. don't exist in real life and so have their own rules.

But, weight classes are needed in every martial art because the big strong guy will always beat an equally skilled small quick guy. No 120 pounders win Heavyweight championships in MMA or boxing.

"Not with fencing!" someone will say; but that's about touches, and Dex to touch AC is fine. If fencers used bladed swords and tried to rip flesh off each other, stronger ones would be much more effective.

"Realism? With magic, dragons, etc.?" might be argued. That introduces unreal things into the world, but physical combat should be like physical combat.

"Stat consolidation" is awful, too. Everyone should face tradeoffs. Every class, including full casters, should be MAD. The primary casting stat should only determine what stat you need to cast spells of a given level. Otherwise, save DC should always be Cha based (sheer power), bonus spells per day Int based (remembering more spells), and all concentration checks Wis based.

So all mental stats would affect all casters, too (who actually already need some Dex and Con to avoid being too easy to kill if someone can get into melee with them).

There should always be tradeoffs, and everyone should have weaknesses that are relevant and have to choose among them.

I don't mean any offense, but that truly sounds awful to me, very rarely in my experience will you be able to have even halfway decent stats across the board, and thats with the high powered rolling that i am used to, in a point buy environment i cant see this working well at all, but eh, different strokes for different folks.


Oly wrote:
Dex to Damage in melee is awful. Any game I GM, I never have and never will allow it. I don't think it's balanced: It isn't badly unbalanced in terms of the fight, but Dex characters also have much more out of combat use due to Dex skills.

They are also giving up other resources to make it work. It is not like they are getting it for free. I am sure that if someone post a dex build that someone else can post a strength build that is equally good all around, so I am doubting your "much more out of combat use.." claim.

Quote:

But, weight classes are needed in every martial art because the big strong guy will always beat an equally skilled small quick guy. No 120 pounders win Heavyweight championships in MMA or boxing.

Weight is not a factor in PF but since you want to bring in real life, a quick person can defeat a much stronger person in the same weight class.

Quote:

"Stat consolidation" is awful, too. Everyone should face tradeoffs. Every class, including full casters, should be MAD. The primary casting stat should only determine what stat you need to cast spells of a given level. Otherwise, save DC should always be Cha based (sheer power), bonus spells per day Int based (remembering more spells), and all concentration checks Wis based.

So all mental stats would affect all casters, too (who actually already need some Dex and Con to avoid being too easy to kill if someone can get into melee with them).

There should always be tradeoffs, and everyone should have weaknesses that are relevant and have to choose among them.

I am glad you brought this up. Do you not allow casters to primarily focus on their main stat in your game, because that makes them a lot better than some martial class no matter if he is dex or str based.


wraithstrike wrote:
Oly wrote:

But, weight classes are needed in every martial art because the big strong guy will always beat an equally skilled small quick guy. No 120 pounders win Heavyweight championships in MMA or boxing.

Weight is not a factor in PF but since you want to bring in real life, a quick person can defeat a much stronger person in the same weight class.

But, Featherweights are quicker than Heavyweights, just not as strong. When a quicker fighter in the same weight class defeats a stronger one, it's because (assuming equal skill, as in BAB), the difference in quickness if much greater than the difference in strength. Any good Heavyweight MMA fighter or boxer would beat any Featherweight in the same sport in arm wrestling.

wraithstrike wrote:
Oly wrote:

"Stat consolidation" is awful, too. Everyone should face tradeoffs. Every class, including full casters, should be MAD. The primary casting stat should only determine what stat you need to cast spells of a given level. Otherwise, save DC should always be Cha based (sheer power), bonus spells per day Int based (remembering more spells), and all concentration checks Wis based.

So all mental stats would affect all casters, too (who actually already need some Dex and Con to avoid being too easy to kill if someone can get into melee with them).

There should always be tradeoffs, and everyone should have weaknesses that are relevant and have to choose among them.

I am glad you brought this up. Do you not allow casters to primarily focus on their main stat in your game, because that makes them a lot better than some martial class no matter if he is dex or str based.

I don't house rule that, because it's too much a part of the core of the game. Dex to damage junk is relatively new and concentrated in a few feats. I do think that making all mental stats play a role in casting would be a very good thing, though.


Hazrond wrote:
I don't mean any offense, but that truly sounds awful to me, very rarely in my experience will you be able to have even halfway decent stats across the board, and thats with the high powered rolling that i am used to, in a point buy environment i cant see this working well at all, but eh, different strokes for different folks.

I'm not offended by it, but my belief is that every character has to have weaknesses. You can't have good stats across the board: That's the point. So you'll be bad at something (or mediocre at everything). To me, that's a good thing. You'll have a weakness: You get to choose what it is, but you can't choose not to have one, ideally.


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Oly wrote:
Not only is Dex good for many more things than Str is, but I also care about combat being as realistic as possible.

This is not a realistic system. This is an abstract system. If you have problems with dex-to-damage on some kind of principle, then you should also have problems with the fact that a 20STR/3DEX creature has an easier time connecting with an attack than a 19STR/19DEX one. No? We accept ridiculous abstracts in this game without a second thought. As long as dex-to-damage is kept under control - and one handed, no light weapons is pretty under control - it's no different. If I had my way, Piranha Strike and possibly Agile would be scrapped, if only on principle; but generally the system works out fine.


BadBird wrote:
Oly wrote:
Not only is Dex good for many more things than Str is, but I also care about combat being as realistic as possible.
This is not a realistic system. This is an abstract system. If you have problems with dex-to-damage on some kind of principle, then you should also have problems with the fact that a 20STR/3DEX creature has an easier time connecting with an attack than a 19STR/19DEX one.

That's a reasonable criticism. Because part of hitting is penetration, Str being important to hit makes sense (while allowing it to become Dex with Weapon Finesse, which I'm all for, just not Dex to damage).

I guess that ideally any negative modifiers from Str or Dex would apply to hit, and using WF or not would simply determine which stat gives you positive To Hit modifiers.

If that were done, 20 STR/3 DEX would hit much less often than 19 STR/19 DEX.


About the MMA weight classes, they are about unarmed combat. Quick instead of strong works better for things like rapiers.


Big tough guy who's a little slow, versus a lightly-built skilled fencer with a very sharp sword? Big tough guy is probably dead within 6 seconds.


Oly wrote:


But, Featherweights are quicker than Heavyweights, just not as strong. When a quicker fighter in the same weight class defeats a stronger one, it's because (assuming equal skill, as in BAB), the difference in quickness if much greater than the difference in strength. Any good Heavyweight MMA fighter or boxer would beat any Featherweight in the same sport in arm wrestling.

Once again PF does not have weight classes so you can't really use that argument in game. Your str argument only applies if the contest is not MMA. Often in MMA it is not one knockout blow, but several blows that win. You do not even need to be all that strong to defeat someone. You need to have good pin point accuracy to hit them in the right place. Machida who is not a power puncher is good at this. Now we know PF is to simplistic to go into everything that goes on in an MMA ring, but I think the problem here is that you mentally tie weaker into smaller so when you see someone with str 10, and dex 18 you see some little guy. If a little guy can beat up a dragon I see no reason why he cant take on another human in the game. Also I have seen dex based characters in actual games. They do not really out perform str based characters and that includes out of combat. I am not trying to get you to allow it and I understand the some people just don't like certain things. I am simply saying the things you worry about in a game are not a foregone conclusion.

The player's ability to make and play a character is more of a factor than anything else.


Tcho Tcho wrote:
About the MMA weight classes, they are about unarmed combat. Quick instead of strong works better for things like rapiers.

No, it doesn't, not in terms of damage. That's based on how much velocity you can put into the slashing, stabbing, or bludgeoning strike, which the stronger person can always do.

There's a case to be made that Dex should affect "to hit" by default. While I'm fine with the Weapon Finesse feat, I think the default should be Str for "to hit" in melee.

The reason is, I've played game systems where Dex was "to hit" (and also avoiding being hit) while Str was damage, and Dex was far more valued than Str. So, if you want Dex "to hit" it's more or less okay with me, but you should have to spend the one feat (though negative modifiers from either should penalize the striker).

But how can Dex cause damage, as opposed to helping you hit? The only way it possibly could would be precision, represented by Critical Hits. Letting Dex add to the chance of a critical threat would be OP, but letting it aid the confirmation roll would be reasonable-- about the only way it causing damage should be allowable.

Silver Crusade

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Matthew Downie wrote:
Big tough guy who's a little slow, versus a lightly-built skilled fencer with a very sharp sword? Big tough guy is probably dead within 6 seconds.

If they're both unarmored, and there's lots of room to move around, the agile guy with the weapon will likely win.

If they fight in close quarters, and both have as much armor as desired, the big tough guy will win every time.

It's all about context.


Magda Luckbender wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
Big tough guy who's a little slow, versus a lightly-built skilled fencer with a very sharp sword? Big tough guy is probably dead within 6 seconds.

If they're both unarmored, and there's lots of room to move around, the agile guy with the weapon will likely win.

If they fight in close quarters, and both have as much armor as desired, the big tough guy will win every time.

It's all about context.

Which, unfortunately, is a level of nuance the rules can't really handle.

We basically have to assume for Armor Class rules to make any sense that there are weak points in the big guy's plate mail that the dextrous guy with the rapier can get through on a high roll. Otherwise he'd be doing no damage at all.


Magda Luckbender wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
Big tough guy who's a little slow, versus a lightly-built skilled fencer with a very sharp sword? Big tough guy is probably dead within 6 seconds.

If they're both unarmored, and there's lots of room to move around, the agile guy with the weapon will likely win.

If they fight in close quarters, and both have as much armor as desired, the big tough guy will win every time.

It's all about context.

And btw, the chance for the agile guy to win if both are unarmored is already represented if the agile guy has WF.

Then it's Dex to hit as well as to avoid hits for him. He'll hit more often, while the strong guy will hit harder.

The strong guy only triumphs even with the agile guy having WF once they're both wearing the best armor they can carry.


Matthew Downie wrote:


Which, unfortunately, is a level of nuance the rules can't really handle.
We basically have to assume for Armor Class rules to make any sense that there are weak points in the big guy's plate mail that the dextrous guy with the rapier can get through on a high roll. Otherwise he'd be doing no damage at all.

Getting through isn't damage. It's to hit, which can already (with my blessing) be made a Dex function through the WF feat.

How much damage you deal once you get through, outside of critical hits, is all Strength in real combat, or anytime you don't have Dex to Damage, which should never exist.

Silver Crusade

In close quarters, where there's no escape, the big guy grapples the little guy. Fencing skill neutralized. Unless the little guy happens to also be a skilled judoka, we know how such a grapple will end.


Oly wrote:
How much damage you deal once you get through, outside of critical hits, is all Strength in real combat, or anytime you don't have Dex to Damage, which should never exist.

Let's say someone stabs you as hard as he can with a rapier. What is a more realistic hope?

(1) I hope he's so weak that he can't pierce my flesh with a razor-sharp blade.
(2) I hope he's clumsy and misses my vital organs / hits bone.

It doesn't take much strength to kill a human.

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