Refine Improvised Weapon

[Darche Schneider]

So you cast this spell and it makes something functional like a simple or martial weapon. The question is.. Do you have to be proficient with that weapon?

Or can you continue to use it like an improvised weapon, its just a bit more damaging?

[DM_Blake]

You don't have to be proficient with any weapon. You can use it normally (e.g. holding a longsword by the hilt and swinging it so the edge of the blade cuts your enemy) even if you're not proficient; you just take a -4 penalty on the attack rolls because you're not good at using the weapon.

Using it as an improvised weapon is entirely different. You might be holding the longsword by the hilt but you're simply clubbing the enemy with the flat of the blade. Or you're holding the blade (I hope you have a good gauntlet) and clubbing your enemy with the hilt. Or some other version of completely misusing the weapon in some way it was never intended to be misused.

Improvised weapon rules are not really meant to be applied to actual weapons; they're for using non-weapons, like chairs or beer bottles or shoes, and having rules to figure them out. Which is not to say you cannot use improvised weapons with actual weapons, but it is to say that you're really using that weapon extremely badly, like some kind of idiot who has no idea what to do with it.

[Darche Schneider]

I think there is a misunderstanding..

Partially my fault since I was posting quickly. But Refine Improvised weapon is a spell that makes an improvised weapon into a masterwork simple or martial weapon.

Now assuming you for some reason don't take penalties for improvised weapons, and you cast that on say a flagpole making it into a spear. Do you end up taking non-prof penalties now? Is it now considered to be totally a normal weapon?

Is the spell intended more for somone who uses improvised weapons or someone who has to improvise due to lack of a weapon?

[blackbloodtroll]

Talking about this:

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Advanced Class Guide wrote:

Refine Improvised Weapon

School transmutation; Level cleric 1, inquisitor 1, ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
EFFECT

Range touch
Target one improvised weapon
Duration 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)

DESCRIPTION

You transform an improvised weapon into an equivalent simple or martial weapon of masterwork quality. This effect does not alter the weapon's shape or appearance in any way. For example, if this spell is cast on a chair leg, a butter knife, or a pitchfork, the items function as a masterwork club, a masterwork dagger, or a masterwork trident, respectively, but the items look no different than they did before the spell was cast.

[Darche Schneider]

Yep, that is exactly the spell.

[DM_Blake]

Yes, it is now considered to be totally a normal weapon. If you turn your flagpole into a spear, you can now use like a spear. In fact, you now MUST use it as a normal spear.

If you are proficient with spears, this is a good thing for you. Your flagpole/spear will do more damage.

If you are not proficient with spears, you take the usual penalties for being non-proficient. But, just like any untrained dumb bumpkin, you could grab that spear and bop your enemies on the head with it like it was a long, skinny club. After all, you COULD do that with a NORMAL spear, so you can do it with your refined flagpole/spear.

Doing this is "improvising" and now you're using your refined flagpole/spear as an improvised weapon, which means it works exactly like it did when it was a flagpole, including the lower damage and the usual penalties you take (or maybe in your case you don't) for using an improvised weapon.

Arguably, it's now masterwork so maybe you get +1 to hit with your improvised refined flagpole, but I'm not sure that +1 applies; I could probably argue this both ways and I don't know of a rule for it, so I'm just going to assume it's up to the GM.

[Darche Schneider]

Well that stinks. Why did this not become a magus or bard spell?

[Prismatic Codex]

I would totally use this on my spellbook and hit someone over the head with it, like a club.

[Bandw2]

DM_Blake wrote:

Or you're holding the blade (I hope you have a good gauntlet) and clubbing your enemy with the hilt.

posting for posterity

[Mighty Squash]

Prismatic Codex wrote:

I would totally use this on my spellbook and hit someone over the head with it, like a club.

Horror Adventures has an archetype for that..... (though, irksomely, its not a wizard one)

[Marcus Pumper]

Where I think this really comes in is with throwing weapons not designed to be thrown. If I cast it on a longsword is it now a longsword and a javelin?

[Ryan Freire]

Its a weird spell that is completely counterproductive to all the other improvised weapon support out there.

[maouse33]

The spell does not turn the item INTO a spear. It is still a Improvised Weapon. PERIOD. It FUNCTIONS AS a such and such. Meaning it does damage as a MW such and such. It does not even change shape. It just gets a +1 to hit.

The application of "functions as" to weapon use requirements is completely counter to the idea of the spell. And counter to every other improvised weapon description which say they "FUNCTION AS" a weapon of similar size.

It is clearly not the case that they suddenly begin BEING normal weapons.

[Meirril]

maouse33 wrote:

The spell does not turn the item INTO a spear. It is still a Improvised Weapon. PERIOD. It FUNCTIONS AS a such and such. Meaning it does damage as a MW such and such. It does not even change shape. It just gets a +1 to hit.

The application of "functions as" to weapon use requirements is completely counter to the idea of the spell. And counter to every other improvised weapon description which say they "FUNCTION AS" a weapon of similar size.

It is clearly not the case that they suddenly begin BEING normal weapons.

Spell says it transforms the improvised weapon into an equivalent simple or martial weapon. First line of the spell description. Nothing about 'functioning as'.

You stop treating the Refined target as an improvised weapon, and instead treat it as a fully functional weapon.

In the case that the improvised weapon was in the hands of someone using the Shikigami Style line of feats, they suddenly go from using an improvised weapon to a standard weapon. They need to ditch the refined weapon and get a new improvised weapon if they want to continue getting the bonuses from using an improvised weapon because the refined spell turns it into a normal weapon without changing its appearance.

[Joey Cote]

Except the spell then goes on to say "This effect does not alter the weapon's shape or appearance in any way. For example, if this spell is cast on a chair leg, a butter knife, or a pitchfork, the items function as a masterwork club, a masterwork dagger, or a masterwork trident, respectively, but the items look no different than they did before the spell was cast."

Which would seem to indicate that the improvised weapon uses the damage, critical range and multiplier and damage type of the chosen weapon but does not actually become the weapon. Which is why I think the OP is questioning how this spell interacts with feats and such. Which I think is a more then reasonable question.

[Scott Wilhelm]

maouse33 wrote:

The spell does not turn the item INTO a spear. It is still a Improvised Weapon. PERIOD. It FUNCTIONS AS a such and such. Meaning it does damage as a MW such and such. It does not even change shape. It just gets a +1 to hit.

The application of "functions as" to weapon use requirements is completely counter to the idea of the spell. And counter to every other improvised weapon description which say they "FUNCTION AS" a weapon of similar size.

It is clearly not the case that they suddenly begin BEING normal weapons.

That's just not what the spell says:

Refine Improvised Weapon wrote:

You transform an improvised weapon into an equivalent simple or martial weapon

Refine Improvised Weapon, via Cote wrote:

This effect does not alter the weapon's shape or appearance in any way.

So? The spell says the table leg still looks like a table leg. The spell says it transforms the table leg into a Masterwork Morningstar or something.

I don't get the confusion, here. It was a table leg with some nails sticking out of it. It still looks like one. But now it's a Morningstar.

That's literally what the spell says.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Darche Schneider wrote:

So you cast this spell and it makes something functional like a simple or martial weapon. The question is.. Do you have to be proficient with that weapon?

Or can you continue to use it like an improvised weapon, its just a bit more damaging?

I think you have to be proficient with the weapon the target of the spell was transformed into.

[Diego Rossi]

Joey Cote wrote:

Except the spell then goes on to say "This effect does not alter the weapon's shape or appearance in any way. For example, if this spell is cast on a chair leg, a butter knife, or a pitchfork, the items function as a masterwork club, a masterwork dagger, or a masterwork trident, respectively, but the items look no different than they did before the spell was cast."

Which would seem to indicate that the improvised weapon uses the damage, critical range and multiplier and damage type of the chosen weapon but does not actually become the weapon. Which is why I think the OP is questioning how this spell interacts with feats and such. Which I think is a more then reasonable question.

Or maybe "This effect does not alter the weapon's shape or appearance in any way." is there for preventing the player from selling butter knives as masterwork daggers, poles as masterwork spears, and so on.

Getting 150 gp for a pole, a first level spell, and leaving the city in a hurry isn't a bad deal for some low level adventurer.

[Diego Rossi]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Darche Schneider wrote:

So you cast this spell and it makes something functional like a simple or martial weapon. The question is.. Do you have to be proficient with that weapon?

Or can you continue to use it like an improvised weapon, its just a bit more damaging?

I think you have to be proficient with the weapon the target of the spell was transformed into.

Or you can use it as an improvised weapon and be back at square one.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Darche Schneider wrote:

So you cast this spell and it makes something functional like a simple or martial weapon. The question is.. Do you have to be proficient with that weapon?

Or can you continue to use it like an improvised weapon, its just a bit more damaging?

I think you have to be proficient with the weapon the target of the spell was transformed into.

Or you can use it as an improvised weapon and be back at square one.

If what you want is an Improvised Weapon, then why bother casting the Spell at all? To get the Masterwork Quality? Do you get a +1 to your Attack Roll if you use a Masterwork Frying Pan? It seems to me that if you want to magic your improvised weapon, you should just cast Magic Weapon on it.

[Diego Rossi]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Darche Schneider wrote:

So you cast this spell and it makes something functional like a simple or martial weapon. The question is.. Do you have to be proficient with that weapon?

Or can you continue to use it like an improvised weapon, its just a bit more damaging?

I think you have to be proficient with the weapon the target of the spell was transformed into.

Or you can use it as an improvised weapon and be back at square one.

If what you want is an Improvised Weapon, then why bother casting the Spell at all? To get the Masterwork Quality? Do you get a +1 to your Attack Roll if you use a Masterwork Frying Pan? It seems to me that if you want to magic your improvised weapon, you should just cast Magic Weapon on it.

An improvised weapon isn't a valid target for magic weapon. As I said, you get back to square one, or better, square zero, as it isn't a masterwork improvised weapon. It is a masterwork weapon, so using it as an improvised weapon doesn't get the masterwork bonus.

Essentially: there is no reason to cast the spell if you have any of the abilities that improve the use of improvised weapons.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Darche Schneider wrote:

So you cast this spell and it makes something functional like a simple or martial weapon. The question is.. Do you have to be proficient with that weapon?

Or can you continue to use it like an improvised weapon, its just a bit more damaging?

I think you have to be proficient with the weapon the target of the spell was transformed into.

Or you can use it as an improvised weapon and be back at square one.

If what you want is an Improvised Weapon, then why bother casting the Spell at all? To get the Masterwork Quality? Do you get a +1 to your Attack Roll if you use a Masterwork Frying Pan? It seems to me that if you want to magic your improvised weapon, you should just cast Magic Weapon on it.

An improvised weapon isn't a valid target for magic weapon. As I said, you get back to square one, or better, square zero, as it isn't a masterwork improvised weapon. It is a masterwork weapon, so using it as an improvised weapon doesn't get the masterwork bonus.

Essentially: there is no reason to cast the spell if you have any of the abilities that improve the use of improvised weapons.

Sure it is. Magic Weapon can be used on any Weapon.

Magic Weapon wrote:

Target weapon touched

Improvised Weapons are weapons.

Improvised Weapon wrote:

Weapon

You take a nonproficiency penalty with them unless you are proficient with them, and it costs Feats to become profient with them, just like other weapons.

When you make attack with them, you don't provoke attacks of opportunity for making unarmed attacks vs. armed opponents. That means you are armed, yourself.

When you are wielding one, you Threaten Squares. When you are unarmed, you don't. What is the word for things armed people are armed with?

Weapons.

[Diego Rossi]

Quote:

Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to

be weapons nonetheless see use in combat.

Weapons are those things listed in the weapon table. Other stuff that can be used to do harm isn't a weapon, game wise.

FAQ wrote:

Can I use my longspear to attack at both 10 feet and 5 feet? I know that the rules for reach weapons don't allow them to attack adjacent foes, but can I use the improvised weapon rules to say that the blunt end of my longspear resembles a club and use it to attack adjacent foes? I know that the improvised weapon rules say they are for objects not designed to be weapons, but the blunt end of my longspear was not designed to be a weapon, right?

You could choose to wield your longspear as an improvised blunt weapon. In this case, it threatens only your adjacent squares, and not the further squares. If you are wielding it as a longspear, though, to threaten the further squares, then your grip precludes the use as an improvised blunt weapon. The rules are silent on how long it would take to shift between the two, but switching between a one-handed and a two-handed grip with a one-handed weapon like a longsword is a free action (and can thus be only taken on your turn), so it should take at least as long as that, thus preventing you from simultaneously threatening all of the squares at once. Incidentally, using the longspear as an improvised weapon in this way would not allow you to benefit from any magical enhancements it may possess, nor would you add benefits that apply when attacking with a longspear (such as Weapon Focus (longspear), but you would apply any benefits from using an improvised weapon (such as Catch Off-Guard).
posted October 2014 | back to top

[willuwontu]

Diego Rossi wrote:

FAQ wrote:

Can I use my longspear to attack at both 10 feet and 5 feet? I know that the rules for reach weapons don't allow them to attack adjacent foes, but can I use the improvised weapon rules to say that the blunt end of my longspear resembles a club and use it to attack adjacent foes? I know that the improvised weapon rules say they are for objects not designed to be weapons, but the blunt end of my longspear was not designed to be a weapon, right?

You could choose to wield your longspear as an improvised blunt weapon. In this case, it threatens only your adjacent squares, and not the further squares. If you are wielding it as a longspear, though, to threaten the further squares, then your grip precludes the use as an improvised blunt weapon. The rules are silent on how long it would take to shift between the two, but switching between a one-handed and a two-handed grip with a one-handed weapon like a longsword is a free action (and can thus be only taken on your turn), so it should take at least as long as that, thus preventing you from simultaneously threatening all of the squares at once. Incidentally, using the longspear as an improvised weapon in this way would not allow you to benefit from any magical enhancements it may possess, nor would you add benefits that apply when attacking with a longspear (such as Weapon Focus (longspear), but you would apply any benefits from using an improvised weapon (such as Catch Off-Guard).
posted October 2014

You realize the bolded section doesn't help your case at all, right? It's just telling you that when you're using a longspear as an improvised weapon, you don't get any of the benefits that you would get for it being a longspear.

All that means is that when you use a weapon as an improvised weapon, it doesn't count as being that weapon anymore.

[Diego Rossi]

willuwontu wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

FAQ wrote:

Can I use my longspear to attack at both 10 feet and 5 feet? I know that the rules for reach weapons don't allow them to attack adjacent foes, but can I use the improvised weapon rules to say that the blunt end of my longspear resembles a club and use it to attack adjacent foes? I know that the improvised weapon rules say they are for objects not designed to be weapons, but the blunt end of my longspear was not designed to be a weapon, right?

You could choose to wield your longspear as an improvised blunt weapon. In this case, it threatens only your adjacent squares, and not the further squares. If you are wielding it as a longspear, though, to threaten the further squares, then your grip precludes the use as an improvised blunt weapon. The rules are silent on how long it would take to shift between the two, but switching between a one-handed and a two-handed grip with a one-handed weapon like a longsword is a free action (and can thus be only taken on your turn), so it should take at least as long as that, thus preventing you from simultaneously threatening all of the squares at once. Incidentally, using the longspear as an improvised weapon in this way would not allow you to benefit from any magical enhancements it may possess, nor would you add benefits that apply when attacking with a longspear (such as Weapon Focus (longspear), but you would apply any benefits from using an improvised weapon (such as Catch Off-Guard).
posted October 2014

You realize the bolded section doesn't help your case at all, right? It's just telling you that when you're using a longspear as an improvised weapon, you don't get any of the benefits that you would get for it being a longspear.

All that means is that when you use a weapon as an improvised weapon, it doesn't count as being that weapon anymore.

You missed the part about the magic enhancement:

Quote:

would not allow you to benefit from any magical enhancements it may possess,

Magic gives an enhancement bonus, masterwork gives an enhancement bonus. If you don't get one of those enhancement bonuses you don't get the other.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Just because Improvised Weapons are not crafted to be weapons does not mean they are not weapons.

"Improvised" is not a synonym of "not." But I think "weapons" almost always means "weapons."

Diego Rossi wrote:

Weapons are those things listed in the weapon table.

That's nonsense. That means that nothing that did not appear on the weapons table in the first publishing of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook is a weapon because it is not on that table. Nets are not weapons because they did not appear in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Players' Handbook?

Another problem with your definition is that Unarmed Strikes are on the Weapons Table, and unarmed Strikes are not weapons. If you are unarmed, you don't Threaten any Squares. If you attack while unarmed someone who is armed, you Provoke an Attack of Opportunity. You do not suffer a nonproficiency penalty for making Unarmed Strikes even if you never took a Feat to become proficient in them. Unarmed Strikes are only considered weapons if you have some kind of special ability like the Monks have. Then and only then can you cast Magic Weapon on an Unarmed Strike. You can cast Magic Fang on an Unarmed Strike, but not because Unarmed Strikes are Weapons:

Magic Fang wrote:

Magic fang gives one natural weapon or unarmed strike of the subject a +1

I'm sorry, but your definition is terrible.

Diego Rossi wrote:

If you don't get one of those enhancement bonuses you don't get the other.

But all that means is that a longspear with an enhancement bonus as a longspear does not get that enhancement bonus when used as an improvised weapon. That does not support an argument that improvised weapons are not weapons. That does, though, suggest that a Frying Pan enchanted to give a +5 on Craft Checks to produce food does not grant a +5 bonus when used as an Improvised Weapon, and an ordinary frying pan that has a Refine Improvised Weapon Spell cast on it should not grant its wielder any bonus to crafting food. It also suggests that a frying pan that was masterworked to grant a bonus to craft checks does not grant it's +1 bonus to its use as a weapon.

Masterwork Armor wrote:

Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can’t create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls.

So, yeah, there's that.

[Meirril]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Just because Improvised Weapons are not crafted to be weapons does not mean they are not weapons.

"Improvised" is not a synonym of "not." But I think "weapons" almost always means "weapons."

If you accept Improvised Weapon as being a Weapon, then everything is a weapon. If everything is a weapon, then the restrictions of Magic Weapon are meaningless, because there are no non-weapon objects.

Either Improvised Weapons are not weapons, or the restrictions on things targeting weapons mean nothing. How much of Pathfinder do you intend on undermining with an ad absurdum argument?

[Joey Cote]

I applaud the OP for finding a nearly useless spell and enabling others to transform it into a rules argument that has one question the transcendental nature of "what is a weapon?"

[Ryan Freire]

Joey Cote wrote:

I applaud the OP for finding a nearly useless spell and enabling others to transform it into a rules argument that has one question the transcendental nature of "what is a weapon?"

4 years after thread death no less

[Scott Wilhelm]

Meirril wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Just because Improvised Weapons are not crafted to be weapons does not mean they are not weapons.

"Improvised" is not a synonym of "not." But I think "weapons" almost always means "weapons."

If you accept Improvised Weapon as being a Weapon, then everything is a weapon. If everything is a weapon, then the restrictions of Magic Weapon are meaningless, because there are no non-weapon objects.

Either Improvised Weapons are not weapons, or the restrictions on things targeting weapons mean nothing. How much of Pathfinder do you intend on undermining with an ad absurdum argument?

The consequence that everything can be a weapon is an interesting one. If you have been Disarmed of your Halberd, then of your Morningstar, then of your Dagger, so you pull out your frying pan to use as a weapon, do you Provoke an Attack of Opportunity for retrieving an object, or do you not because you are drawing a weapon? Seems like the former to me, since it wasn't crafted to be a weapon, it doesn't become a weapon until it's in your hands being wielded.

As to being able to cast Magic Weapon on whatever you happen to be wielding, so what? If your PC is reduced to such a state that he has to fight a monster with a broken chair, he's in a lot of trouble. And if he gets a boost from an ally making his chair a +2 chair, well, so what? He's still in a lot of trouble.

The other scenario we're talking about is a character that is build around Improvised Weapons, and in that case, why not just allow his PC to work the way the player envisioned?