Difficult time with melee sorcerer


Advice


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As many dated threads have posted, I'm attempting to make a kickass melee sorcerer, which i know, is probably I'll advised. I want to keep it so I can gain access to as many 9 level spells as possible, as they (mostly time stop) what I'm going for long term to buff my character to extreme amounts. As a newer player to pathfinder I've researched about two weeks but can't seem to really come up with anything besides pure Abyssal or it crossblood with wildblooded verdant (I'm not really a plant fan). I know you can't have it all with characters, but I'm just the kind of player who does (and is expected from my gaming groups) to break the mold. We are trying to keep custom house rules to a minimum to keep things fair, but it feels like this class is pretty weak in comparison to others, until I hit much later levels.

To give some backstory, this character is a anti- hero type, with a different angle than most. He was a "good" character, traveling the world and helping those on his way. However his mind became corrupt when he pushed himself too far using his inherent demonic abilities, and he desired more and more power to avenge and resurrect his fallen friends. Eventually his sole purpose was to become so powerful he could challenge the Gods themselves. However after challenging a being of great might he was cast down and stripped of his powers, restoring his original personality, and sealing him away in a deep forgotten crypt via temporal stasis where the current party finds him. Now he has to decide what is more important to him, rescuing his friends or attaining ultimate power in combat.

And just as an fyi, we all have stories that individually will attribute to our main campaign significantly.


Nothing you do as a humanoid, swinging a staff or sword or whatever in melee while buffed to the gills, will ever be as good as fully embracing shapechanging magic.

Sure you can do something. Sure it undoubtedly is better than a straight fighter. But if you go this route, using weapons, armor, the whole buff thing, you are a lot better off going into Eldritch Knight or something.

But that approach isn't as strong as going all out with shapeshifting. Of course neither approach is optimal. Being in melee range isn't good, the ideal is to render an opponent incapable of ever having had the chance to take a swing at you, ie that the combat was lost before it began.

Now if you have some idea that your sorcerer is going to use haste, blur, displacement, improved invisility, enlarge person, maybe Tenser's Transformation to be a melee monster swinging some kind of anime sword...

Well you can do that.

But it definitely be something that is totally worse than using shapeshifting magic.

If you want to be in melee range at all, which is definitely not a good idea.


Your lack of BAB cannot be made up for, without exceptional buffing. With the problem being that unless the buffs have a very long duration trying to buff up during a fight will keep your out of it until it is over.

Unfortunately, it just doesn't work well. If you want to be melee capable, you will need to levels in dragon disciple or eldritch knight to continue your spell casting progression and gain some actual melee prowess.


Sorceror is quite powerful, Sorcerors who fight in hand to hand are weak.
Your problem is a lack of BAB and no armour and a whole bunch of other stuff.
Dragon Disciple as a prestige class may particularly if the GM will refluff it to work off your abyssal bloodline.
Evangelist of a god with melee boosting obedience abilities could help as it has better BAB progression.
Celestial obedience Arshea and Mystery cultist would get you better BAB and Charisma to AC at level 14 (From memory) costing 1 level of sorceror but hurting bloodline progression, again if you can persuade your GM to let evangelist work with Celestial rather than deific obedience that would help. You will still suck at low levels though
The only way I can think of to get Cha to hit is to pick up smite from somewhere and that is very limited use.

Oracle is probably better suited for it but that is not what you want. A dip could get you Cha replacing dex from a mystery.
Noble Scion(war) feat can get you Cha to initiative

I forgot Eldritch knight but that loses you your bloodline progression


If by melee sorcerer you mean a sorcerer who uses melee attacks to do damage it is not going to work well. The problem is that you simply do not have the right abilities to pull this off. Even with a bloodline that gives you claws you are at a severe disadvantage to any semi competent martial build. Even if you use spells to buff yourself this will be difficult. You will need to spend several rounds casting spell to get yourself ready for combat and by that time the fight may be already over. Either the party will have won and you will be all dressed up with nowhere to go, or they will be down and you will have to face the enemy by yourself.

While not optimal you could have a sorcerer specializing in touch spells instead. Spells like shocking grasp or ghouls touch could work ok. You are still going to be incredibly vulnerable because you don’t really have a way to get your AC up and may have trouble getting spells off when you are in combat. If you want to play a sorcerer this would still probably be the best route to go.

A Magus, or a Bloodrager would be a lot better for this concept. Neither of them will get 9th level spells, but you really need to figure out what you want to concentrate on. A Magus has a much better blend of magic and combat so would probably work best. If you really want to combine magic and melee they are the ones to do it. They can go nova and deal huge amounts of damage, but only limited times per day.


It sound like you're planning to play up to the high levels. What level are you planning to start at though?

Sovereign Court

If you want to get bloodline powers with melee, you can get the eldritch heritage line of feats, while playing a Bloodrager, An Arcane Duelist (Bard archetype) or Eldritch Scion (Magus focusing on charisma, so you can qualify easily for eldritch heritage high charisma).

Now if you would only play sorcerer in melee...well grab the orc bloodline to get inherent strength bonuses (Eventually +6 inherent bonus to strength at level 17) combined with bull strength , you would be rocking at least +10 bonus to your strength. With the power of giants from the bloodline, you will also get +6 size bonus to strength.
The bloodline does give you the orc subtype, you might consider taking a look into the racial orcs feats or orcs spells, Boiling blood I believe boost an orc.

While Samsaran do get a penalty to con, I would seriously consider playing one in your case to grab spells from the Summoner list. Get buffs early entry, such as a Haste (2nd level), Magic fang greater (3rd level, good if you are focusing on spells from the polymorph school), Eaglesoul (+4 sacred bonus to strength, stacking that strength bonus with inherent strength and size bonus from the orc bloodline, well mostly vs evil opponents should be fine in any campaign), Protection from spells (as a 6th level spell instead of 8th, +8 resistance bonus vs spells way worth the cost of casting it).


Note that many gm's will not allow getting spells from the summoner list earlier than they appear on the wizard list via Summoner. I won't and no GM I have played with would.

The problem really is for a melee sorceror is that by the time you have all your buffs up you are still not quite as good as a melee specialist and I almost never see a fight take more than a few rounds so you are largely useless for most of the fight


I had considered magus but I feel like later on he gets out classed by both specialists on their respective fields. Time stop would allow me to cast all if not must of my buffs in one use (assuming quickening works how I'd hope, and the BAB would be equivalent to a Fighter.

I guess I'll be fine with pure sorcerer or maybe even oracle, it's just despite the fantastic abilities I feel like they lack flavor like the fighter class imo

Sovereign Court

well if you are fine with an oracle, just play an oracle then. Oracle are full of flavor and on top of it, they actually make great melee characters (Battle, Ancestor, Metal, Wood etc...are just a few of the many mysteries made for melee), they actually can cast divine favor which makes up for medium bab and allows you to fight like a full bab class and various other very useful divine buffs. Oracle are imo the most flavorful class out there right now.

Sorcerer are also full of flavor but they aren't really made to be melee combatants.


Really you don't need to wait for time stop since contingency comes online a lot earlier (depending on which buffs you are talking). Also, you can probably make quite a few of your standard buffs permanent as well.

But really, I would rethink straight melee for maybe melee touch spell specialist instead if you want to stay with sorcerer.

Edit: nevermind, I just re-read permancency and there isn't much there for buffing ...


the hardest problem I had for a while, when picking the bloodline, is I am a huge fan of the concept of luck playing into things story was for a character. The problem was was the Destin bloodline has a lot of potential if some aspects or tweet about it. I don't know if they'll ever fix that, but for now that's not working for me. I was thinking about doing the Oracle because it has a lot of better luck bonuses for what appears to be similar to bloodlines, but again since I'm going for melee-ish I'm guessing there's no way you can combine them like with the cross blooded sorcerer right? to be honest I haven't even really looked at Oracle that much, since I just saw it and read a bit on my last hour at work

Scarab Sages

Sorcerer makes a great touch spell specialist. Aberrant Bloodline using alter self to take a boggard form can cast touch spells at up to 25 feet, or 30 with longarm. You can still be charged, but you are out of immediate melee range.


Unless you are starting at high levels planning you character based solely on high level abilities is a waste of time. What level are you starting at? Some builds don’t come online until much high level and if you are past that point than they may work. If you are starting at 1st level that is a completely different story.

An oracle of battle actually fits your concept better than a sorcerer. The curse is a result of being cast down. Having proficiency with heavy armor and martial weapons is going to be a huge help (Skill at Arms revelation). The other revelations are also going to boost your combat abilities even further. The cleric spell list has the best combat buff spells of any class. Divine Vessel gives you the equivalent of several spells in one. If your alignment allows it Bestow Grace of the Champion gives you many of the abilities of a Paladin including Smite Evil of half your level, and CHA to saves. A 20th level Oracle of Battle buffed with his spells can actually outfight almost any martial class.

Sovereign Court

Well If you are okay with playing an Elf or half-elf, you can go into the Ancient Lorekeeper(Elf Oracle archetype), which can add arcane spells to your oracle list.

Technically you could play a human with racial heritage (Elf) to qualify for the archetype as well.

But anyway, you will be able to grab the few arcane spells that you would want to use to increase your melee proficiency (even if most of the good ones are already divine but if there are some arcane spells you really wanted to use...it's not a bad option).


PF luck isn't much like luck in literature IMO. I think literary luck was what you were suggesting appealed to you?

Still wondering what level you're starting at. 9th level spells are not what you plan your character around unless you're starting in the teens.

You can't combine two oracle mysteries, but you can combine two curses if you're so inclined, check out the dual-cursed oracle archetype. Alternately a spirit guide archetype oracle can do something similar to, but not quite the same as, combining two mysteries.


From what I've been reading oracles are basically the sorcerer equivalent to clerics. Which isn't a bad thing. I'm going to have to research your guys responses and I really appreciate the help! I'll probably repost here soon with a result and see your thoughts. ..? Regardless thanks again!

Sovereign Court

I would also strongly recommend my favorite guide for oracle:

Channeling the cosmos, have fun.


Also, Aasimar(that bit is important for the 3rd level SLA) Sorcerer 1/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10 is a nice and legal way to do what you want while actually being half-decent at fighting. It does give up sorc bloodline and stuff, but you're in it for the buff casting, not the bloodline.

Once you're full up on EK, go back to sorcerer for the remaining 8 levels.

You will have 9ths at level 20, and a base attack bonus of +15, so equivalent to a cleric.


The Dragon wrote:

Also, Aasimar(that bit is important for the 3rd level SLA) Sorcerer 1/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10 is a nice and legal way to do what you want while actually being half-decent at fighting. It does give up sorc bloodline and stuff, but you're in it for the buff casting, not the bloodline.

Once you're full up on EK, go back to sorcerer for the remaining 8 levels.

You will have 9ths at level 20, and a base attack bonus of +15, so equivalent to a cleric.

I see you have missed the FAQ of Rages, which reversed the early entry via SLA FAQ from a while back. You can't use the racial SLA to qualify for EK.


The Dragon wrote:

Also, Aasimar(that bit is important for the 3rd level SLA) Sorcerer 1/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10 is a nice and legal way to do what you want while actually being half-decent at fighting. It does give up sorc bloodline and stuff, but you're in it for the buff casting, not the bloodline.

Once you're full up on EK, go back to sorcerer for the remaining 8 levels.

You will have 9ths at level 20, and a base attack bonus of +15, so equivalent to a cleric.

The recent FAQ killed using SLA for early entry into prestige classes.


A good martial sorcerer is going into Dragon Disciple. You'll still get 9th level casting, much bigger HP, getting more natural attacks and STR so your low BAB matters less. You'll get Natural armor. Start as a crossblooded Dragon and Orc/abyssal. You'll be a beast.


Serisan wrote:
The Dragon wrote:

Also, Aasimar(that bit is important for the 3rd level SLA) Sorcerer 1/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10 is a nice and legal way to do what you want while actually being half-decent at fighting. It does give up sorc bloodline and stuff, but you're in it for the buff casting, not the bloodline.

Once you're full up on EK, go back to sorcerer for the remaining 8 levels.

You will have 9ths at level 20, and a base attack bonus of +15, so equivalent to a cleric.

I see you have missed the FAQ of Rages, which reversed the early entry via SLA FAQ from a while back. You can't use the racial SLA to qualify for EK.

RAAAAAGE!!!!!!

Do you have a link though? Did they say why they reversed it?


CECShocktrooper wrote:
I had considered magus but I feel like later on he gets out classed by both specialists on their respective fields. Time stop would allow me to cast all if not must of my buffs in one use (assuming quickening works how I'd hope, and the BAB would be equivalent to a Fighter. ...

Well yes, a pure casting sorcerer probably will outclass a magus at the end of their careers. But the magus will way outclass your melee sorcerer throughout their careers at all levels.

You are not looking for a pure casting sorcerer. You are looking for a melee spellcaster - what is commonly called a 'gish' build. Currently, magus is one of the most powerful ways to do a gish build. Note: the ACG has a spontaneous casting archtype of the magus that some people like.

Probably the second best way to do it is with some combination of the Eldritch Knight (EK) and/or Dragon Disciple (DD) prestige classes (PrC). The levels of each depend upon how much you want to be a caster and how much you want to be a melee combat machine.

If you really want to be mostly a caster with access to 9th level spells. That means probably 1 level of some martial class, 6 levels of sorcerer, 10 level of EK, then finish off with sorcerer.

Yes, time stop would allow you to cast a bunch of buffs. Then start melee combat with them operational. However by the time you can cast timestop, melee combat buffs are just about the least efficient thing you could do.
And how are you going to fight before you get to 18th level?

I'm not saying this concept is horrible, bad-wrong-fun, or you shouldn't do it. A friend of mine is currently getting ready to try something similar specializing in the polymorph spells.
What I am saying is that it is very difficult concept to get functional, keep up with the rest of the group, and requires a pretty high level of system mastery.

CECShocktrooper wrote:

...

I guess I'll be fine with pure sorcerer or maybe even oracle, it's just despite the fantastic abilities I feel like they lack flavor like the fighter class imo

Kind of an odd statement to me. Most people on these boards will go on for days about how the fighter is boring and has no flavor at all.


He does too. He said they lack flavor just like the fighter.


So in still about (50/50) on my pick. Mostly because I'll be the only competent caster (my friend makes very, VERY bad decisions ex:I could heal my friend with this potion/action he gave me earlier before he gets killed, orrrrr I can search through his dying body to find his gear to help. -_- )

If I were to go with oracle I'd probably choose Ancestral, Battle, or maybe Metal? What curse works best for these? And should I get Extra Revelations or something else entirely?

You guys have been an awesome help do far! I was a bit apprehensive because the community seemed pretty die hard on MAXIMUM efficiency and no room to be unique and importantly have fun with a GAME. But it seems like it's actually not such a bad community.


Check out some of the Sorcerer and Dragon Disciple guides. Have you looked at any of those class guides or build guides? Also check out the guides discussion thread.

A sorcerer can be a very effective caster, but spell selection is key. As others have said, sorcerer with melee focus is generally a tough build & somewhat sub-optimal compared to decently built Barbarians, Bloodragers, Magus, etcetera.

If you're looking for flavor, a Sorcerer/DD has a lot. It's definitely not min-max optimal, but you can create an effective sorcerer with some melee ability (not maxed, just OK). You'll lose casting levels, up to three if you go full 10 levels of DD, but you gain Strength, Constitution & Intelligence, and some extra natural armor. My preference is go DD to 8th, then straight Sorcerer.

Given a decent Charisma, you'll have natural weapons to start for enough rounds to handle most adventuring days. There are a number of ways to get one or more extra natural attacks beyond claws.

You'll have to invest in things to support melee. An Amulet of Mighty Fists is pretty much required from mid-levels onward if you're going the natural attack route.

Hopefully you're at a table that allows dicing for stats, rather than point buy, as you'll need high CHA, CON, STR, DEX. Rolling (depending on the method) can sometimes result in decent stat support for a MAD character concept.

My S6/DD3 character had a lot of fun in a RotRL campaign. I got to use my breath weapon several times, and had several fights where I waded into melee and had a blast. Flavor was great, but if I'd gone pure sorcerer, I could have probably been even more effective using pure spells. Anyway, hope these thoughts help.

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