Building a Sylph Arcane Duelist


Advice


So, my daughter and I play PFS (so we have to stick within Society-legal options) and we have each managed to get a racial boon. She is going to be an undine watersinger. She really wants me to build my sylph as another type of bard so they can have a shared backstory in which they're traveling minstrels or some sort. We've come up with the name Wind and Waves for the performing duo. Yep, because water elemental and air elemental lineage. Anyway, I think arcane duelist is my best option as she'll play more as ranged weapon attack (and the water fighting, of course).
In my head, I want this character to be some sort of crazy killing machine (think Deadpool) and I'm considering a 1 level dip into inquisitor for the hand crossbow proficiency (running into combat shooting, then tossing them aside to go bladed battle seems very Deadpool in my head) and the fast healing 1 judgment (because healing factors are cool). I'm open to other ideas, but it's my initial thought.
Anyway, my biggest issue has been figuring out how to use the 20 point build to flesh out this character (using the sylph's +2 to int and dex, but -2 to con).
I'm open to ideas (including other bard archetypes if you think there's a better fit). The limitation is that I have to stay bard (I suggested going a different class and just putting points into perform, but we both think that loses the feel of the minstrel thing).


Juggler Bard? You get proficiency in all martial thrown weapons, so you can enter battle with a flurry of chakrams and then attack with several weapons simultaneously.

Other options:
- Dervish Dancer archetypes (the two of them) make for pretty good combat bards
- Archaeologist works very well too for Deadpooling, just reflavor it
- Ever considered going Skald? It's quite similar to the Bard, but their bonuses don't overlap with a bard's, and you get some good battle tools.
- Another option yet is to go a blaster Bard with Thundercaller. You'd be able to blow enemies up before they get a chance to hit you!


Thanks for the input. Not sure juggler and thundercaller quite work for what I'm envisioning, but that doesn't mean I don't like the ideas. How would you Deadpool up the archaeologist? just curious.
Skald is an interesting idea. Hadn't really considered that, but that's still bardish. Mayhaps I should peruse that class and the relating archetypes a bit...


I'm guessing the daughter is going to be spending her performance rounds on Watersong rather than Inspire Courage so overlap shouldn't be much of an issue.

I wouldn't recommend the Inquisitor dip. You're playing a a class that depends heavily on a abilities that scale with level; you need a very good reason to be anything other than Bard 20, and some weak fast healing and proficiency in crossbows (read: the worst weapon type in the game) doesn't cut it.

If you want to be crazy, the Court Bard might fit the flavor. Instead of Inspire Courage you get Satire, which is basically the reverse (-1 to enemies rather than +1 to allies).


Well the Dawnflower Dervish is going to be the most deadly basic front-man, what with the doubled Inspire Courage.

Grabbing Power Attack, tacking on a level of Urban Barbarian (perform friendly, dex from rage), and taking an Extra Rage here and there when you can afford it means you're pushing the basic dex-to-damage framework to it's natural limits for killing power. It's not fancy, but it's got great ab even with Power Attack, and an awful lot more damage than the usual dex-build - +8ish at mid levels. Power Attack also opens the door to Cornugon Smash -> Hurtful, which is a ton more punch as well.


@Arachnofiend-Yeah, the bard archetypes should compliment each other nicely. Court bard is an interesting idea. As for the inquisitor dip, I could get "fast healing" by having a wand of infernal healing. I just liked the Deadpool idea for the character.
@BadBird-Dawnflower Dervish with the one level dip into urban barbarian is pretty darn intriguing. I've been playing around looking at the number and abilities that would give and it's definitely making me think it could be a winner.


I'd have to agree with Arachnofiend - don't dip. Aside from the fact that it's kinda numbercrunchy, losing the bard level only hurts in the long run, while the raging doesn't help that much. what, like 3 rds of rage a day, at the cost of fatigue? Besides, whatever glorious singsongy duets your team is hollering out will come to a crashing end when your barbsylph breaks down into inchoate shrieks and snarls while they pummel the enemy with their fragile lute. Or y'know, go skald. It's a better fit if you're looking for some rageface. I picture this as more of a folksy/heavy metal band already, tho. I can't imagine them doing some kind of greenleaf duet while one of them is snarling and howling for blood. Undine: Dangit! Ulfwor, that's not the words! Ulfwor: "WwwwwwwwAuuughhhhhh, Ber-serk-errrrr!"


Aemesh wrote:
Aside from the fact that it's kinda numbercrunchy, losing the bard level only hurts in the long run, while the raging doesn't help that much. what, like 3 rds of rage a day, at the cost of fatigue? Besides, whatever glorious singsongy duets your team is hollering out will come to a crashing end when your barbsylph breaks down into inchoate shrieks and snarls while they pummel the enemy with their fragile lute.

Controlled Rage is a +2 to ab, damage, AC and reflex save, and it doesn't affect the usual use of any charisma based skills - such as perform - in any way, as per it's description. You get far more rage rounds from level 1 than you do for subsequent levels, and one Extra Rage feat is the same as having 3 more levels of Barbarian. Besides, unlike a Barbarian that wants rage up as much as possible, a Bard is only going to tap controlled rage when it's time to lay down a few rounds of devastation and end the battle.

Why people think that rage - let alone a 'controlled' rage - is some kind of mental retardation, where you can't do anything but scream at the moon and sledgehammer things, is beyond me.


lol, well, I can't help it, never bothered much with the urban rager archetype, but that's good to know. Most of the other rage builds DO sorta function that way. Your upper brain functions sorta go away, and then its screaming and hammering things. Anyway, anything that adds to ab, ac and BAB is probably a good buy for a frontliner, but on that note, i'm still not sure if its worth the fatigue trade. 'course, you could probably nullify that by getting some hax constant effect invigorate item, or a restoration of some sort. I'm finding that a lot of times, barbs either run out of people to kill and are left with 3 rds of rage for teh day, or they run out in the middle of an encounter and suffer.


Aemesh wrote:
lol, well, I can't help it, never bothered much with the urban rager archetype, but that's good to know. Most of the other rage builds DO sorta function that way. Your upper brain functions sorta go away, and then its screaming and hammering things. Anyway, anything that adds to ab, ac and BAB is probably a good buy for a frontliner, but on that note, i'm still not sure if its worth the fatigue trade. 'course, you could probably nullify that by getting some hax constant effect invigorate item, or a restoration of some sort. I'm finding that a lot of times, barbs either run out of people to kill and are left with 3 rds of rage for teh day, or they run out in the middle of an encounter and suffer.

Yeah it's a toss-up for straight-out Barbarians, since they need that rage on. The idea for a dipped Barbarian is that you wouldn't start a rage that you didn't expect to be in when the last foe drops a few rounds later. Having a half-dozen rounds of post-rage fatigue after a battle is harmless - really, even in a battle it's only -2 dexterity and no run/charge if you end up in a situation where you really want to stop.


Not gonna lie, I enjoyed that exchange about the mental function of the barbarian.
My thoughts on the 1 level dip into urban barbarian as rather genius are as follows:
-4(+con modifier) of rounds with +4 to dex will give me the same effect as the battle dance, so it gives me about twice as much time using that skill.
-As a standard PFS adventure tends to have around 4 encounters, I'll be able to look at the rage as needed in those first three and can save the dance (which causes no fatigue) for the "boss fight."
-In the event that rounds of rage are left for the "boss fight," they'll stack with the battle dance and make me that much more of a beast.
-At level 2 (dawnflower dervish 1/urban barbarian 1), I'll have a +7 to hit (+5 from dex, +1 BAB, and +1 from having a masterwork scimitar by that point)and that's before dancing or raging. Dancing or raging, I'll be at +9, dancing and raging, I'll be at a +11. Pretty hard to miss at that point ;=) Damage will be +5 (or +7 or +9)
-As the scimitar is one-handed, I can take the "accelerated drinker" trait and gulp a potion of shield (carried in that free hand) as a swift action as soon as we're ready to engage in battle for an additional +4 shield bonus to AC (and protection from magic missile)
-Also, the urban barbarian concept just makes me think of a Tarzan-type, but with the stereotypical British gentleman's bearing. For example:
Me-Bah, you'd have me eating the entrée with a salad fork? What are we...barbarians?!?!? Well...I mean...I am one, but still. Even I, the barbarian, know how uncouth that is! (storms off)
Party member-He knows these are trail rations, right?
So yeah, nice role play opportunities with that.


yeah, though that invigorate is a bit hax - especially for avoiding the fatigue dropping to exhaustion for whatever circumstances; its a bard spell lvl1? and if your aren't counted as fatigued, then fatigue effects shouldn't stack, as per "ray of exhaustion". Also, immunity to fatigue from other sources. Handy for a constant effect, but I donno maybe there are better ways to spend 6000gp


Usage of invigorate to offset the barbarian fatigue is a pretty nice pairing indeed! I appreciate the suggestion. The 6000gp could probably go to magic armor to help keep me alive longer ;=)


I'm looking at an ability spread of:
Str: 7 -2

Dex: 20 +5

Con: 12 +1

Int: 10 +0

Wis: 10 +0

Cha: 14 +2

Which would give me +5 to hit and damage (as a dawnflower dervish bard)and 6 rounds of battle dance.
Other than the rare moments of needing to climb or swim, I can't really see the strength dump hurting me. For ranged battle, I can just use a crossbow. The scimitar in melee works off the dex, so I think this works. I wouldn't mind a higher int to get more skill points, but I'd rather not drop wis (and therefore will saves) to do it.
I'm thinking my traits will be accelerated drinker (for potion-based AC), and reactionary (all the better to strike you first). For my first level feat, I'm looking at the sylph feat Airy Step which gives me +2 to saving throws versus things of the air or electric variety and it allows me to ignore the first 30 ft of falling damage.
Role-play-wise, crazy guy who will happily jump off roofs to pursue foes, wades into battle alone without worry (gets a bonus for having multiple adjacent foes once he adds urban barbarian, so not a bad thing), and he'll have strangely proper attitudes towards some things (like which fork to use), but will also overstep social boundaries without noticing he's done so ("Your wife's rather lovely. You two aren't that happily married, are you? *wink wink nudge nudge*)


nice. on a site note, I've been allowing certain customized items to function as "swift actions to activate" albeit at a greater cost, as well as other items that come into effect immediately as a reaction to more specific circumstances: aka, if stuck below 25% health, cast "aid" cl 3 once per day, etc. I really haven't played with the traits, but I agree that sometimes I really want the PCs to flex their imaginations on gear and potions, rather than just relying on that whole stat-stacking of +1's and 2's. Wonder if pathfinder ogc has a trait database...


If that's a 20-point buy, I think you might be over by 1. Stat-wise, there's a choice between utterly dumping strength and squeezing in a little more dexterity (7STR/20DEX), or going more rounded so that you can take Power Attack and don't have quite the same liability when it comes to carrying capacity and CMD (13STR/18DEX).

Going with the pure dexterity is a little stronger overall, at least until high levels. The advantage to going with Power Attack is that you can grab Cornugon Smash which is great by itself, and potentially chain it with Hurtful which is just... well, hurtful.


Stat build math

Str: 7 (adds 4 to the pool, so 24)
Dex: 20 (-17 from the pool and +2 from sylph, so 7)
Con: 12 (-2 from the pool, so 5)
Int: 10 (dropped to 8, so adds 2 to the pool, then +2 from sylph, so 5)
Wis: 10 (so 5)
Cha: 14 (so that's the whole pool)

That's right, right?


Sylph has racial -2CON, so before racial mods I'm getting +4 from STR and +2 from INT, -17 from DEX, -5 from both CON and CHA.


Drat. Stupid math. So, I could have a con of 10 or I could drop cha to 13 and still have the 12 con...right? Stupid math.


pippinTook wrote:
Drat. Stupid math. So, I could have a con of 10 or I could drop cha to 13 and still have the 12 con...right? Stupid math.

Well just taking 9 wisdom would do it, pretty painless for a Bard and barely noticeable RP wise.

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