I didn't ban the Master Summoner... but maybe I should have


Advice

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I'm currently running RotRL Anniversary Edition with 5 players, one of whom wanted to play a Summoner. I don't really like the class myself, but he loves it, and I haven't seen it in play, so I said "okay".

Then he hits me with: Master Summoner archetype, which is rather broken. And, of course, he summons the Eagle, which is OP compared to the other creatures on the list of Summon Monster 1: 3 attacks, all at full +3; flight; 80' movement. PLUS, he got Augmented Summoning at lvl 2 (+4 STR & CON to summoned creatures). So his Eagle comes into play where he wants it positioned, deals 3 attacks doing 3-6 hp/per, and is absolutely shredding the goblins in the encounter.

I'm wondering: how do I reasonably counter a Master Summoner? Is there a guide somewhere on countering/dealing with Summoned Creatures?

I am really trying to not house-rule anything in this. I am using the AP to learn the Pathfinder mechanics better, and don't want to start making up rules just to counter his character.

They have now reached lvl 3, so I know he plans on dismissing his eidolon to free him up for multiple SLA summonings, all at 3 min durations. I don't want to unfairly counter his character by throwing in things specifically to counter him, but I have to do something. He's only 1 of 5 players, with a ranger, a slayer, a rogue, and a witch in the mix.

Right now, I am adding things like: nets for the goblins (to take down his eagles); more ranged attacks (short bows); tanglefoot bags and thunderstones. I'm thinking of adding a scroll of "Prot vs Good" as well, but that would be for only certain NPCs as the goblin chief couldn't use it.

They are at Thistletop for those who know the AP. They just cleared out the bramble tunnels in front of the keep, and will enter the keep this weekend.

Suggestions are welcome!


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Protection From spells and Circles of Protection are the usual anti-summoned thing trick.

For your case, heavy foliage or tight passages that would make flying all but impossible.

Nets are good (goblins have high dex, so the non-proficiency penalty is mostly moot).

Upward cover, like scurrying under a table, would make it hard for an eagle to attack.

The most important one is just to add more fodder. Tie up the minions with your own minions. Because you have a large party, and one of them is a summoner, I'd recommend doubling the enemy numbers in every encounter. That will make the summoner still feel relevant and important but won't let them dominate the encounters.


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Yeah, Master Summoner is just OP. Worse than being OP is that it can very easily bog down a game by flooding the field with monsters. You may want to consider retroactively banning the Master Summoner and letting the player rebuild as a regular summoner.


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If your master summoner follows the 'one true path' his level three feat will have been Superior summons. Which means each of those eagle summons become a 1d3+1 number of eagles, plus he gains access to the truly dangerous Earth elemental as of L3. (Which with Augment has 17hp and a slam attack at +7 1d6+9 using the earth elementals power attack feat.)
Your measures are stopgap at best though. Once your master summoner hits level 5 and is able to spam elementals of any desired flavor it will swiftly prove difficult to counter him without negating the other players or being obvious in your intention to bring him into check.

Doomed Hero's advice is good if you want to keep the summoner in the group and still present a challenge. Trouble being that many of the encounters in ROTRL restrict the number of creautres that could easily fit. You might also consider augmenting your creatures with lower level templates the law/chaos templates that summons use would likely be a fair choice. Don't use the advanced template, it is significantly better than the +1CR it implies.
Giving any creature damage reduction can easily neuter the amount of damage output your summoner is putting out as well. Trouble being it works for your other players as well. (this is rendered moot at Level7-9 and onward as the Master summoner spams lantern archons that deal 1d6 touch attcks overcoming all forms of DR.)

If you are just learning the rules then I'd just be frank with your player, inform him that the power level of the summoner class and specifically the master summoner archetype is too powerful for the ROTRL adventure as it is written.
I would honestly just suggest removing the class entirely as the Eidolon presents its own problems. Problems like Pounce and three primary natural attacks at level one or 15ft reaching polearm trip attacks.
If your martial characters are unoptimized such creations would very easily outshine all of them. Keeping them in check requires significant understanding of the rules around creating them, their limitations and how it all meshes. The risk being a misreading of the rules resulting in some unintentionally illegal Eidolon build being far more proficient at killing things than it has any right to.


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Rocks fall on the cheesehead and he has to make a new character.


re: banning the MS completely: I am really trying to make this work, and it does mean upping my game as GM - which is why I am seeking advice on countering summoned creatures.

Yes on: environment making summons difficult "low ceilings" etc. Yes on "Prot vs" for some NPCs. Yes on adding more HP and a few more minions to balance out the additional player-side team members.

Yeah - the small elementals add a whole new level of "yikes" to this. But that would be true of just about any character able to summon them. (And they only get a single attack/rnd, unlike the eagle.)

I also plan to try and keep more pressure on the Summoner directly: ranged attacks and multiple round conditions (deafness; grapple) requiring concentration checks, etc.

I'm going to give it one more session, with him flexing his lvl 3 muscles, before I decide on whether to ban the MS or not. I was thinking of just allowing a standard Summoner. The eidolon alone is not quite as bad, and not too much more powerful than a druid's animal companion - both can have creatures that get multiple attacks at low level.

I'm less concerned with him hogging "table time" as we have agreed that other players at the table will roll for his summoned creatures, just to keep them involved.

Sovereign Court

Otherwhere wrote:


I'm less concerned with him hogging "table time" as we have agreed that other players at the table will roll for his summoned creatures, just to keep them involved.

It still slows combats down to a crawl.


I really hate the "ban the class!" arguments as the summoner provides some tricks that no other class really does. The synth archetype allows for all manner of funky concepts that you can't bring about otherwise, too, but that's fodder for another thread.

Ask him to keep it to one summon at a time by keeping his eidolon buddy out. I built my master summoner's eidolon as a "girl Friday" and considered myself far too important to not have her available at a moment's notice, particularly with the additional traits feat for Helpful and (houseruled) well-prepared feat. She intimidated people from the sidelines and threw the occasiona net or tanglefoot bag I kept using her as a human shield and mine detector, too (Yes, that character was a sleazy pig. I found a copy of a young Ron Jeremy, drew a goatee on it with Microsoft Paint and used it as a character portrait).

The hardest time my GM ever had dealing with my master summoner was when he nailed my eidolon with a disease, forcing me to keep her out of the game. It was summons, summons, and more summons, particularly so the other players character's wouldn't wind up level drained and diseased from fighting the various undead in that particular dungeon. When I had the eidolon out and was restricted to only 1 summon, I wasn't nearly the problem. Also, consider that that is a nova moment. A master summoner can do that a few times a day, at most, and a simple protection from evil spell steals much of his thunder.

At any rate, there are a number of ways to restrict power to tone things down without an outright ban, including simple gentleman's agreements. Present your concerns and arguments, with examples, and offer alternatives. Ultimately, you're the GM, so your word's law. I know I'd just hate having the rug yanked out from under me without a chance to play the concept I was after without a chance to tone things down voluntarily.

There are also time concerns involved here due to the large group you've got. If he wants to play a summoner, he'd better bring the preprinted stat blocks to the table and know them cold. I also found it helpful to have other players run summoned critters to save time. If they didn't attack the bad guy quite how I wanted them too...well, that's the price of using summoned beings. Its so hard to get good help these days!

Edit: Re: small elementals. Every time I rolled out a small earth elemental I'd get a "they do HOW much damage?!" from the GM. They're one of the handier summons at 3rd level.

I'm also not sure how much beyond 3rd level that this guy will shine. DR is a problem. Hitting is a problem without a bard or someone jacking up the attack bonuses. We only played until 4th level, and between me keeping my eidolon out and other classes like druids coming into their own at 4th or 5th level, I think there might be fewer cries of "OMGbroken!!!!" at the summoner's antics.


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my gm just banned more then 1 active summon at a time. really cuts down on on the broken parts of the summoner.


Experiment 626 wrote:

I really hate the "ban the class!" arguments as the summoner provides some tricks that no other class really does. The synth archetype allows for all manner of funky concepts that you can't bring about otherwise, too, but that's fodder for another thread.

Ask him to keep it to one summon at a time by keeping his eidolon buddy out. I built my master summoner's eidolon as a "girl Friday" and considered myself far too important to not have her available at a moment's notice, particularly with the additional traits feat for Helpful and (houseruled) well-prepared feat. She intimidated people from the sidelines and threw the occasiona net or tanglefoot bag I kept using her as a human shield and mine detector, too (Yes, that character was a sleazy pig. I found a copy of a young Ron Jeremy, drew a goatee on it with Microsoft Paint and used it as a character portrait).

The hardest time my GM ever had dealing with my master summoner was when he nailed my eidolon with a disease, forcing me to keep her out of the game. It was summons, summons, and more summons, particularly so the other players character's wouldn't wind up level drained and diseased from fighting the various undead in that particular dungeon. When I had the eidolon out and was restricted to only 1 summon, I wasn't nearly the problem. Also, consider that that is a nova moment. A master summoner can do that a few times a day, at most, and a simple protection from evil spell steals much of his thunder.

At any rate, there are a number of ways to restrict power to tone things down without an outright ban, including simple gentleman's agreements. Present your concerns and arguments, with examples, and offer alternatives. Ultimately, you're the GM, so your word's law. I know I'd just hate having the rug yanked out from under me without a chance to play the concept I was after without a chance to tone things down voluntarily.

There are also time concerns involved here due to the large group you've got. If he wants to play a summoner,...

LOL I love the Ron Jeremy thing!

Thanks for the Summoner perspective as well!

Basically, it seems house-ruling is the only real way to work with this short of outright banning. I'll need to think about what I want to tweak. PLUS the player will know these are all specifically due to his character, which I was hoping to avoid, but - ah well...

Question for you, Experiment 626: why choose a Master Summoner if you were going to be house-ruled/limited anyway? Why not just go standard Summoner?


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Summoner spells are close range. Archers from long range (100' or more) do bad things to a summoner's day -- even a Master Summoner.

Remember that he can only indicate who to attack, the Eagles choose their route. He doesn't have the mystical ability to cause the eagles to use perfect strategy. Unless he has Handle Animal skill high enough to "push" a trick, he doesn't even have the ability to cause them to flank an opponent. Keep in mind that the eagles don't start out flying either...you can't summon something in mid-air.

Don't forget the big target on the forehead of the summoner and a matching one on the summoned Eidolon. Even covering them up isn't that much good, since the Eidolon is obviously not natural. It just means they have to guess who might be the summoner...such as that person bringing in creatures as a standard action and then directing them to attack.


Extra Range isn't really that strong against a summoner past level 3, as Air Elementals have a fly speed of 100, meaning they could charge 200 feet away in a single round and that's after starting the spell range away from the summoner. And getting the elemental to do what you want is as simple as 1 point of linguistics:Auran.


The master summoner gets an eidolon in play AND 1 summon. The regular gets one or the other.

My restrictions were gentleman's agreements. I still kept the nova potential in my back pocket, but saw that it was causing issues, so didn't want to use it. I didn't want to steal anyone's thunder, we had a 3 man group starting out with no cleric or arcane caster, so the extra muscle on the board, battlefield control, buff potential from the spells, and damage sponges all worked in our favor. Besides, I had more fun acting like a self-important jackass and always bellowing for "Miss Holloway" to "do something about this!!" than to worry about being a power monger. I enjoyed having a break from being the team's "God wizard", too. It was fun rolling in with a character who had a cool bag of tricks that, after you did the initial homework, took almost no time to set up compared to picking spells or having a 3 page inventory of alchemical items.

This was an e6 gestalt game and the GM even allowed me to take a feat that let me advance the eidolon as normal instead of at half. I thought he didn't really know what he was getting himself into, so kept her largely as a noncombatant. I wound up taking levels in inquisitor as my 2nd gestalt path so I could abuse the teamwork feats and use the eidolon as a human shield or as other ways to make myself look good. I played her as a codependent freak who liked "dying" in new and interesting ways as she'd just be back the next day anyway. I'd have tried to get the "Die for Your Master" feat houseruled to work with eidolons if the campaign went any longer. Combat reflexes, boyguard, and In Harm's Way might have worked, too, but eidolons don't get many feats.

There were occasional action economy problems, as you need a standard action to dismiss the eidolon and start busting out more than 1 summon, but that was part of the tradeoff.

re: languages. I made sure I started with the elemental languages with an eye toward picking up celestial, infernal, and abyssal as I leveled.


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BretI wrote:
Keep in mind that the eagles don't start out flying either...you can't summon something in mid-air.

Citation? As far as I know, that rule is to prevent people from dropping summoned creatures like rhinos on people's heads. A summoned critter can start in any "safe" space.

Now that I think about it, that seems to mean that earth elementals can start underground.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

From PRD: A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

However, I thought that I read somewhere that you could summon a creature in its natural environment like if it had a fly or a swim speed.


Thanks, BretI! Yeah, I am making sure he knows he can't control his eagles. Plus they need to roll to Hover (easy for them, but not automatic) in order to stay airborne and attack. Otherwise, they have to move then attack, or attack then move (which opens up an AoO against them). They are only 7 HP, but also have the Die Hard feat as well as the Celestial template, which makes them tougher to deal with. At least at 0 HP or lower they can only make 1 attack, which will help kill them faster as well!

@Experiment 626: Ah! Yes - a MS can have both out. That is a nice ability!


Seannoss wrote:

From PRD: A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

However, I thought that I read somewhere that you could summon a creature in its natural environment like if it had a fly or a swim speed.

That's my recollection to, Seannoss. I recall people summoning elephants to drop on people's heads and that line inserted to stop that. Now its created a new problem: "An air elemental? Gotta be summoned on the ground, man! Sez it right here!"

The "open location" seems like it might kill my earth elemental idea, though. Oh, well, another bribe for the GM is in order!

That does remind me, though. Just tell the players that's what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If NPCs pull the same tricks they do, they might suddenly vote against an idea they were all for!


For summoning Earth Elementals, open location isn't so much of an issue as "line of sight" and "line of effect".

Sovereign Court

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Otherwhere wrote:
They are only 7 HP, but also have the Die Hard feat as well as the Celestial template, which makes them tougher to deal with.

Being summoned - they dissapear at 0hp. Diehard doesn't help them.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Otherwhere wrote:
They are only 7 HP, but also have the Die Hard feat as well as the Celestial template, which makes them tougher to deal with.
Being summoned - they disappear at 0hp. Diehard doesn't help them.

Then why do they get the Feat??


I laughed out loud when I read your original post Otherwhere as I have had a similar experience with the MS. I was dubious of the Summoner, but I decided to give it a try when one of my players wanted to run one. He chose Master Summoner and he also chose Eagles as his creature du jour. At first, they were incredibly powerful, but I'm running Reign of Winter and even at level 1 there are a lot of DR creatures. As the challenges get tougher, his powers have come more into line, but with those elementals now (the party is Level 5), he still gets bang for his buck. My favorite is when he summoned a bunch of snakes to take out a war party that had been sent to track the party down. His eidolon is also pretty nifty as he took Bleeding attack as an evolution. For the record, the rest of the party consists of: A human paladin of Abadar, a human star-souled sorcerer (about to take levels as an evangelist of Nethys), a gnome druid, and a half-elf rogue/wizard (on track to become an arcane trickster). Reign of Winter is a pretty tough adventure path, so overall the MS hasn't been too OP, and I'm lucky that my MS player self-regulates; but still with my experiences, I am never allowing a Summoner in one of my games again.


Otherwhere wrote:

Thanks, BretI! Yeah, I am making sure he knows he can't control his eagles. Plus they need to roll to Hover (easy for them, but not automatic) in order to stay airborne and attack. Otherwise, they have to move then attack, or attack then move (which opens up an AoO against them). They are only 7 HP, but also have the Die Hard feat as well as the Celestial template, which makes them tougher to deal with. At least at 0 HP or lower they can only make 1 attack, which will help kill them faster as well!

@Experiment 626: Ah! Yes - a MS can have both out. That is a nice ability!

Celestial eagles were my go-to against a forest drake at low level. They were about the only thing my 3rd level self could summon that could help. The acid resistance actually helped them stick around for 1 more round after getting nailed with its breath weapon.

And Miss Holloway nailed it via a readied action with a natural 20 with a tanglefoot bag when it flew overhead! Boo-ya!

I've got one last thing to say about the Master Summoner...if you're the group's usual Battlefield Controller guy and preparedness freak (like me), running a Master Summoner will make you feel like you're on vacation yet allow you to still accomplish your role.

Battlefield control? Got it, either via Create Pit or plunking a critter on the board. Buff your team by bringing in flankers or by throwing Enlarge Person on the barbarian? Got it. Take pressure off the cleric by throwing in expendable chumps to eat damaging attacks, poison, level drain, etc? Handled. Need a rogue, but no one wants that role? Skilled evolution, baby! +15ish to disable device if you throw skill points that way, and a similar bonus to perception, along with darkvision, lowlight, and scent, along with telepathic communication. Need to handle any role, on the fly? Evolution surge.

Hornswoggle your GM into taking Well-Prepared feat and getting the Helpful trait on your eidolon and you're the man with the solution to almost any problem, and it doesn't take a 12 page character sheet to make it happen.


Walter Roberts wrote:
I laughed out loud when I read your original post Otherwhere as I have had a similar experience with the MS. I was dubious of the Summoner, but I decided to give it a try when one of my players wanted to run one. He chose Master Summoner and he also chose Eagles as his creature du jour. At first, they were incredibly powerful, but I'm running Reign of Winter and even at level 1 there are a lot of DR creatures. As the challenges get tougher, his powers have come more into line, but with those elementals now (the party is Level 5), he still gets bang for his buck. My favorite is when he summoned a bunch of snakes to take out a war party that had been sent to track the party down. His eidolon is also pretty nifty as he took Bleeding attack as an evolution. For the record, the rest of the party consists of: A human paladin of Abadar, a human star-souled sorcerer (about to take levels as an evangelist of Nethys), a gnome druid, and a half-elf rogue/wizard (on track to become an arcane trickster). Reign of Winter is a pretty tough adventure path, so overall the MS hasn't been too OP, and I'm lucky that my MS player self-regulates; but still with my experiences, I am never allowing a Summoner in one of my games again.

Based on that last, are you banning the entire Class? Or just the MS?


Melkiador wrote:
Yeah, Master Summoner is just OP. Worse than being OP is that it can very easily bog down a game by flooding the field with monsters. You may want to consider retroactively banning the Master Summoner and letting the player rebuild as a regular summoner.

Agreed, things just will grow worse and worse with the levels.


Melkiador wrote:
For summoning Earth Elementals, open location isn't so much of an issue as "line of sight" and "line of effect".

Harrumph! Back to the drawing board.


Other than a whole pile of bonus Summon Monster uses how is this any worse than a Wizard doing the same thing?

Sovereign Court

Otherwhere wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Otherwhere wrote:
They are only 7 HP, but also have the Die Hard feat as well as the Celestial template, which makes them tougher to deal with.
Being summoned - they disappear at 0hp. Diehard doesn't help them.
Then why do they get the Feat??

Because monsters aren't optimized. Besides - just because Celestial Eagles can be summoned doesn't mean that every Celestial Eagle exists only when summoned. It can exist on its own too.


Symar wrote:
Other than a whole pile of bonus Summon Monster uses how is this any worse than a Wizard doing the same thing?

I think it is really at lower levels. A lvl 1 Wizard can't nova, but a lvl 1 MS can.

But I don't want this to become a Summoner bashing post. I'm really interested in learning ways to handle a Summoner - or MS specifically - as a GM. Hopefully without needing to target that class specifically - which is seeming less and less likely.


Symar wrote:
Other than a whole pile of bonus Summon Monster uses how is this any worse than a Wizard doing the same thing?

There is the standard - vs 1 round casting.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Otherwhere wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Otherwhere wrote:
They are only 7 HP, but also have the Die Hard feat as well as the Celestial template, which makes them tougher to deal with.
Being summoned - they disappear at 0hp. Diehard doesn't help them.
Then why do they get the Feat??
Because monsters aren't optimized. Besides - just because Celestial Eagles can be summoned doesn't mean that every Celestial Eagle exists only when summoned. It can exist on its own too.

I don't believe he mentioned that as simply a feat those creatures CAN have. I believe they are getting Die Hard as a feat due to his being a MS. Though this may be one of those things I need to check to make sure my player is being accurate and honest about the rules!


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Arm the goblins with horsechoppers, which are their little polearms. Then the goblins get AOOs as the eagle swoops in on them, assuming the eagle doesn't beat their initiative and go first in the combat. The weapon does 1d8 before modifiers so a goblin might even be able to one-shot a standard eagle before it hits him.


Shaun wrote:
Arm the goblins with horsechoppers, which are their little polearms. Then the goblins get AOOs as the eagle swoops in on them, assuming the eagle doesn't beat their initiative and go first in the combat. The weapon does 1d8 before modifiers so a goblin might even be able to one-shot a standard eagle before it hits him.

AH! That helps! Though, yes - so far they have been shredded by the eagles because he summons them right next to them and the eagles get to attack first.

Dark Archive

Otherwhere wrote:
Then why do they get the Feat??

Every summon exists someplace else to be summoned. It's the base version that this applies to. Summons, except with explicit exceptions (such as the Eidolon), always go poof once they hit 0hp.

My recommendation would be to limit it to 1 active summon at a time. Doing more is a violation of what I consider to be a player's #1 responsibility, "Don't Be A Jerk" - if you summon up an army, you're screwing over the rest of your part on table time. This is a very common house rule, and is in fact the law of the land in PFS play. Even with this limitation summoning is one of the most powerful things that can be done.

Another thing to do would be to throw in some enemies with caster class levels who can use Protection From Good. Celestial eagles are incapable of harming a creature under the effect of that spell (or, later on, entering the radius of the equivalent Circle spell).

Otherwhere wrote:
I don't believe he mentioned that as simply a feat those creatures CAN have. I believe they are getting Die Hard as a feat due to his being a MS. Though this may be one of those things I need to check to make sure my player is being accurate and honest about the rules!

I really have no idea where he got this from. The archetype is described here. They get the modified summoning ability (eidolon and summon at the same time) plus a free Augment Summoning feat in exchange for a lower power Eidolon. There's nothing about Die Hard in any of those.


Having run several long running campaigns since the Summoner was released as a class, I really have no problem with them at the table. I did find my life was made much easier by just outright banning Master Summoner. Gentlemen's agreements are nice and all, but the bitterness that can arise when you're picking apart someone's character isn't good for the game.

I most often find that the people arguing to allow master summoner, and saying that there's no issue with it, have never actually run a game. Honestly, that's a pretty important part to discovering how annoying they are.

Sovereign Court

I've only seen one summoning PC played properly (wizard, conjurer) in my whole gaming life. The guy would bring up-to-date cards each bearing stats of his summons. It did not slow the game at all, but he was really prepared and organized.

If your player is NOT the organized type, your game will suffer. Consider having a discussion with him in regards to bookkeeping and paperwork, and see how he feels about the extra work (i.e. those stats will most likely have to be updated if he applies summoning feats to them, class abilities that boost your summons, etc.)

As for game balance, don't worry. At higher levels simple spells will do away with his flood of minions...


Otherwhere wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Otherwhere wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Otherwhere wrote:
They are only 7 HP, but also have the Die Hard feat as well as the Celestial template, which makes them tougher to deal with.
Being summoned - they disappear at 0hp. Diehard doesn't help them.
Then why do they get the Feat??
Because monsters aren't optimized. Besides - just because Celestial Eagles can be summoned doesn't mean that every Celestial Eagle exists only when summoned. It can exist on its own too.
I don't believe he mentioned that as simply a feat those creatures CAN have. I believe they are getting Die Hard as a feat due to his being a MS. Though this may be one of those things I need to check to make sure my player is being accurate and honest about the rules!

Is he a Half-Orc?

EDIT: Nevermind, Ferocious Summons isn't quite the same thing and he shouldn't have that yet.


This is all great, folks! I really appreciate it!


Darkbridger wrote:
Is he a Half-Orc?

Aasimar.

Sovereign Court

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
I've only seen one summoning PC played properly (wizard, conjurer) in my whole gaming life. The guy would bring up-to-date cards each bearing stats of his summons. It did not slow the game at all, but he was really prepared and organized.

I actually have a conjurer (wizard) in my current game who basically does that. (Not exactly since it's a roll20 game.)

But even then - it can slow down the game a bit. Not moreso than any other caster if they don't have their ducks in a row - but still somewhat when they're rolling 10 different attacks from 5 different creatures.


Otherwhere wrote:
Thanks, BretI! Yeah, I am making sure he knows he can't control his eagles. Plus they need to roll to Hover (easy for them, but not automatic) in order to stay airborne and attack. Otherwise, they have to move then attack, or attack then move (which opens up an AoO against them).

I want to make sure I have this correctly too: an eagle (or any creature with multiple natural attacks) can't move and take all their attacks, right? That's a full-round action to take all 3 attacks?


Otherwhere wrote:
AH! That helps! Though, yes - so far they have been shredded by the eagles because he summons them right next to them and the eagles get to attack first.

Make sure that you're enforcing the fly rules. It's a DC 15 fly check to hover and be able to make his full attack. It's also a DC 10 fly check to move less than half his speed in a round and stay flying. If he takes any damage, it's also a DC 10 fly check or he loses altitude. If he's low enough to attack goblins, failing these would ground him. If he fails some of the other checks he's not going to be able to make full attacks and not be grounded. His fly bonus is +8, so he's got a good chance of making them, but still, there's a chance he won't get to do it constantly. Also, he needs to be moving around if not hovering, so when he leaves the goblin's threatened square, the goblin gets an AOO if he lives.

Also, this is a question, not a statement: Does a flying creature that uses wings get summoned in flight? Because if he's summoned on the ground and have to take wing on his turn, this kinda invalidates the whole tactic.

Sovereign Court

Otherwhere wrote:
Otherwhere wrote:
Thanks, BretI! Yeah, I am making sure he knows he can't control his eagles. Plus they need to roll to Hover (easy for them, but not automatic) in order to stay airborne and attack. Otherwise, they have to move then attack, or attack then move (which opens up an AoO against them).
I want to make sure I have this correctly too: an eagle (or any creature with multiple natural attacks) can't move and take all their attacks, right? That's a full-round action to take all 3 attacks?

They can 5ft step - but otherwise no. (unless they have pounce)


Diehard's probably coming from "Summon Good Monster".

And if they have horsechoppers, he's going to summon the eagles inside their reach. I would.


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That feat isn't coming from the monster, it's coming from the Summoner's Summon Good Monster Feat (which expands the summon list to include B2 and B3 creatures and gives all of your good aligned summons Diehard).

There's a half-orc feat from the ARG, Ferocious Summons, that gives summoned creatures Ferocity; the Design Team advised that those summons disappear when outright killed rather than at 0.

Based on that ruling, I'd say the intent is that a summoned creature granted Diehard by the Summon Good Monster feat sticks around until it's dead.

Advise-wise, my honest answer is to ask the Master Summoner's player to dial it back and reach some sort of gentleman's agreement with him so that he stops wrecking the game.

There are counters to him beyond "double the size of encounters", but a lot of them won't be available for a long time. By the time he'll be facing enemies who can counter him, he can also develop the ability to counter the counter-measures.

Aside: protection v. ___ spells won't do squat against elementals.

Extra aside: I'd assume any creature with a fly speed can be summoned in the air. Otherwise, you have really silly results, like being required to summon lantern archons or air elementals (neither of which even have ground speeds) at ground level.


Experiment 626 wrote:

Diehard's probably coming from "Summon Good Monster".

And if they have horsechoppers, he's going to summon the eagles inside their reach. I would.

Yes - he's got Summon Good Monster (being a good-aligned Aasimar and all).

Dang! Right. He has summoned them right next to the gobs, so no AoO coming in.


Ok, a few things.
A sorc, cleric, druid, or wizard could actually summon more things than a summoner. Granted the summoner gets them as a standard action and for a longer duration. So banning the MS really doesn't solve the issue if a player likes to summon things.
They usually choose not to because the other spells are really more effective most of the time. Think about that... The other spells are usually more effective...

I have a summon specialized sorcerer. I have augment summoning and superior summons. I can quite literally FLOOD the field with summoned creatures. I have only chosen to do this twice in 10 levels. Probably at least half my combats it has been more advantageous to not summon and cast a different spell every round. Very often a grease, glitterdust, or create pit has essentially ended any threat in a combat long before summoned creatures would have killed anything. (Especially once I got the persistent metamagic feat. Not to long ago I had some giants trapped in a persistent spiked pit, with persistent grease on the walls of the pit, and they were blind from a persistent glitterdust.)

Eagles really probably are too powerful for the SM1 list. But even so, remember they are dumb and he can't communicate with them in any way. They will attack whatever comes into their little bird brain based on where they appeared. I would not let them intentionally gain flanking, necessarily focus fire, perform other actions, etc...

Goblins are easily smart enough to use nets and fill the upper reaches of a room with smoke (eagles can't see in the dark). Some of them (chief or witch doctor) are even smart enough to realize who is casting the summon monster spells that are hampering them. Then the summoner should get a face full of poisoned arrows.
The goblin witch doctor could easily have scroll of stone call (or something similar) that can easily take out or disable a whole lot of eagles at once.
Goblins would be totally unconcerned by the potential friendly fire of throwing a whole bunch of alchemist fire and oil all over the place. A few of the area affects and all the eagles are dead as well as the party members all taking some fire damage.

Having several potential combat encounters in a day will make the summoner need to be careful to not run out of SM spells each day.

Also as the levels go up a bit, SM doesn't seem quite as powerful. Often the better combat things can't deal with DR/good, DR/silver, ranged combat, etc...

Summoner and specifically Master Summoner are quite powerful classes. But they really aren't as powerful as a well run primary caster.
However, I will say they are easier to optimize than those other primary casters. It takes some effort and system mastery to do very well with your SoD wizard. Knowing which spell, to use when, and what it actually does.
The Master Summoner is relatively easy. Take the feat augment summons, take the feat superior summons, then summon monster at the start of every fight (or before the start if you have warning). That is much easier for an organized neophyte to get pretty dang optimal.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ciabola wrote:
my gm just banned more then 1 active summon at a time. really cuts down on on the broken parts of the summoner.

Which is essentially either "ban the archetype" or make the player live with a crippled one. Busting out multiple summons is essentially the raison d'être of the package, after all. I personally would never have allowed the archetype in the first place because it steals so much screen time from other players.

I also require ALL players who use summons to have index cards or other aids ready to speed play. If you've got to rummage through the Bestiary when it's your turn, you wind up passing.


Doggan wrote:
I most often find that the people arguing to allow master summoner, and saying that there's no issue with it, have never actually run a game. Honestly, that's a pretty important part to discovering how annoying they are.

I have, so I guess I don't qualify under "most". In fact, I miss running it, as do the players I had in that campaign. Might be time to belly up to the bar again.


Oh man. I am NOT allowing the Faun if he thinks he can spring this supplemental list of creatures on me!

Looks like I am going to have to put the brakes on my friend's MS! I thought Summon Good Monster only added the Diehard feat to his Celestial template creatures. But there are additional creatures here that look like a huge pain!

(Sigh)


An eagle's natural state isn't flying. A monster flying at the opening of combat isn't flat-footed even if he hasn't gone yet in the combat. A rat isn't summoned mid run and is assumed to be sitting there until he goes. I think an argument can be made that a summoned eagle is just standing on the ground like any other summoned monster and needs to take flight to make his full attack after a successful hover. Unless someone knows that's absolutely true, I wouldn't house rule it at this point without the player's buy in because the player may think you're just griefing his tactic.

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