I didn't ban the Master Summoner... but maybe I should have


Advice

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wraithstrike wrote:
Ruske Bell wrote:
Throw Master Summoners back at him.
I don't think he wants to do that for every fight. He seems to be looking for a more general solution.

Depends, does he want a final solution?


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DM Under The Bridge wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Ruske Bell wrote:
Throw Master Summoners back at him.
I don't think he wants to do that for every fight. He seems to be looking for a more general solution.
Depends, does he want a final solution?

I am sure he does, but the best solution, IMO, which is to get rid of the MS until he gets more GM'ing experience is not the one he wants.

I think one thing he will take away from this is not to not allow anything else that he does not fully understand.


Give every pc except the summoner the squire feat for free. Then give enemies triple max hp.


wraithstrike wrote:
DM Under The Bridge wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Ruske Bell wrote:
Throw Master Summoners back at him.
I don't think he wants to do that for every fight. He seems to be looking for a more general solution.
Depends, does he want a final solution?

I am sure he does, but the best solution, IMO, which is to get rid of the MS until he gets more GM'ing experience is not the one he wants.

I think one thing he will take away from this is not to not allow anything else that he does not fully understand.

Agreed.


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wraithstrike wrote:
I think one thing he will take away from this is not to not allow anything else that he does not fully understand.

Actually, my take away is not to trust that Paizo has a balanced system in place. Just because it exists in the system doesn't mean it should be used. Kind of an odd design philosophy, but that does seem to be the reality.

As for the rest: it's not GMing experience, it's GMing Pathfinder and the non-Core classes and archetypes and new feats with unexpected (and unbalanced) synergies or contradictions that are my weakness.

And that's what these forums are for, right? To say: Hey, community! I'm having challenges here! How do you handle this?

And I am amazed and really appreciative of the response! Lots of really good answers in this thread to take away! I do feel I have: a) a better grasp of the system than I thought; b) ways to reasonably and believably counter the MS without nerfing him or house-ruling his archetype; and c) that I am certainly not alone in finding this particular archetype OP, and likely will ban it in the future!

Sovereign Court

Summons generally have really weak accuracy - they just have multiple swings & he can get bunches of them.

Start giving the goblins decent armor and watch those eagles make lots of whiffs. It'll affect the other characters somewhat - but less than the summons.

A goblin with four mirror armor (cheap) and a heavy wooden shield (cheap) suddenly has an AC of 21.


Just a hint, though... if you even start considering mythic rules, all the above get far, far worse. For summoning-focused characters, they get summons as standard actions and even swift, meaning two such spells per round, each with either +1 creature (if summoning more than one) or mythic templates (if summoning just one), epic DR... it gets monstrous pretty quickly.


Isn't master summoner explicitly called out as being mostly for solo adventures, and being DM discretion to allow otherwise?


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Otherwhere wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I think one thing he will take away from this is not to not allow anything else that he does not fully understand.
Actually, my take away is not to trust that Paizo has a balanced system in place. Just because it exists in the system doesn't mean it should be used. Kind of an odd design philosophy, but that does seem to be the reality.

This problem is mostly in regards to archetypes. Paizo seems to playtest classes pretty heavily, but archetypes are all over the place in power. I suspect some of the archetypes only see one or two sessions of playtest.


I banned the Summ-on-er~! (But I didn't ban the Core Wizard~!)

I did not actually ban the summoner.


One additional note re: not knowing what to allow - Hero Lab.

When we all started using Pathfinder, one of the players suggested we invest in Hero Lab, which really was rather useful. However, that was when the glut of non-Core feats and archetypes, etc., took off.

Being new to Pathfinder, I - understandably - trusted that everything that is officially sanctioned must be okay. I have now learned that this is not the case!

I love Hero Lab. I think it is a great tool. And I know you can go in and switch off all the non-Core books and supplements. But, as I said, being new to the system I didn't know what I was getting into. It's not like Paizo puts a big warning label on some things, like the Summoner: Warning! This class may be unbalanced and we do not recommend its use!


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Again, it's mostly the master summoner that's the issue - while summoner is certainly very much so strong, it's the master summoner that can flood the field, but as Ultimate Magic notes on page 79,

Ultimate Magic, 279, side-box wrote:

Hordes of Summoned Monsters

The broodmaster and master summoner archetypes can potentially have 5, 10, or even more summoned creatures in play. This is a deliberate feature of these archetypes, and means that the summoner can potentially be a strong candidate for “solo” adventuring by one player. However, in the hands of an inexperienced or moderately experienced player, dealing with all of those creatures in combat can take a long time, forcing other players to wait extended periods between their turns in the initiative. It is strongly recommended that GMs only allow these archetypes for experienced players, or decide on a way to speed up the summoner’s turn (such as by allowing other players to control some of the summoned monsters).

While not quite "WARNING: THIS IS UNBALANCED!" it does warn that there are potential issues with the thing, owing to its intense personal power and complexity.

Frankly, a Core Wizard is more powerful than the basic Summoner class (though that class has a few tricks the Wizard can't exactly duplicate). Heck, a Wizard in general is more powerful than even a Master Summoner if you're willing to put the time and effort into pulling it all off (though it takes some time and effort). The difference is the ease of empowering the master summoner.

(As has previously been state, well-built druids can actually outshine the summoner as well, though I'm less familiar with that class as few in my games ever really wanted to play it.)

Sovereign Court

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Druids, Wizards and Clerics are indeed still stronger but like people mentioned before, Summoner is a class that comes pre built already with strong options, Master Summoner make the summon monster SLA even stronger, basically it takes less system mastery to make a strong summoner than making a strong wizard.

You can simply admit to him that you don't know how to deal with his MS for this AP and if he could tone it down a bit, that's all you require of him. Usually players would be okay with it and he will play it a little more subtle. Then, if an encounter happens to go wrong for some reason, fighter down and the likes, the summoner can flood the battlefield to help save the situation, which is totally fine.


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If you are more interested in things that aren't overly powerful or confusing from Paizo, check out what's allowed and banned from Pathfinder Society. Although some things are banned from PFS merely because of other constraints, such as player crafting.


Melkiador wrote:
If you are more interested in things that aren't overly powerful or confusing from Paizo, check out what's allowed and banned from Pathfinder Society. Although some things are banned from PFS merely because of other constraints, such as player crafting.

This will also be supportive if I feel I need to ban the MS altogether after this weekend's game. I can let my player know that even PFS doesn't allow that archetype in play, which makes less about him and really just about the archetype.


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Experiment 626 wrote:

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It the summoner drops them in the right square, they'll attack the correct enemy. If you, as the GM, allow it, he can drop different birds in different squares, setting up a flank. ...

Agreed. Eagles show up and decimate first goblin. I don’t have a problem with that. I meant after that, they are just going to move on to which ever enemy is closest to each individual eagle. They won’t all move toward the chief/shaman and surround him for flanking and to prevent an escape route. That would be several handle animal checks.

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Otherwhere wrote:

I can't believe Paizo thought that extending the duration by a factor of 10 wasn't broken!

Cause it really isn’t.

Ok, you fight in a room. Typically they search the room. That is about a min for each square. Summoned creature gone.
Ok, didn’t search the room. The rogue sneaks down to the next door, listens, comes back to tell the rest, searches for traps, picks the lock. Summoned creature gone.
Ok, didn’t search the room and didn’t sneak to the next. There is usually discussion on what to do next, healing wounds, picking a route, travel time, etc… Summoned creature gone.

My experience has usually been that even with the increased duration they are gone before the next fight. Unless of course the whole party is sprinting from encounter to encounter without searching, stealthing, investigating anything. If they are sprinting from encounter to encounter, that should give them other problems.
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Otherwhere wrote:

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Ugh! Yeah - I'm still dealing with him at just lvl 3, and have to let him know he can't summon Fauns. I need to research the others on the list. Any opinions on the Grig or Pseudodragon?

Lantern Archons will be the next pain when he gets there.
...

As GM I haven't found any need to tell them to not summon any given creature. personally, as a summoning PC I try to summon different things all the time just for variety.

All of them have issues and weakness that intelligent opponents can make use of. Do they really shine sometimes? Sure! That's a good thing.

The eagle is the combat machine on the SM 1 list.
SM2 it is usually the small elemental or the lemure.
SM3 it is the lantern archon though the leopard is also pretty good.
SM4 usually the lion but sometimes the wasp.

But none of them are really all that great in most circumstances. Lantern archon cuts through DR and flies. Great! But it’s about as durable as a clay pot. Reasonable archer or burning hands at that level and they are gone having done just a little damage. Compare it to the damage of a 5th level fireball from a wizard in one round. Not that much.

Now if you have opponents that have DR you can’t get through and they don’t have and ranged attacks, spells, or flight capability. The lantern archons will start to rack up the damage numbers eventually. But if the bad guy can’t get to the archons, what is he going to do? Just stand there and curse at them? No, he’s going to charge the guy summoning them. So it actually can put the summoner at more risk by making him a target.

Otherwhere wrote:

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Man - this archetype is looking more and more unattractive as a GM.

Again, you have a player that like to make a powerful PC. That is really your issue. Not the master summoner archtype. A vanilla druid could be doing even more with him and his AC both being great in combat. An average cleric could be doing as much and yet be more durable. A standard wizard could be doing more with lots of other options.

The only thing the archtype gives him is that it is easy to make powerful. From what you have said, he doesn’t need that “easy to make powerful.” He will take the time to make anything powerful. So if he were to run a magus, wizard, cleric, druid, sorc, barbarian, etc… he would still make a powerful character and would still outshine your other players that don’t make powerful characters.


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Just remembered another thing I had to learn for the more recent versions of the game.

Back in my AD&D and 2nd Ed days, we could usually run the modules as written. They were normally decent to challenging for the average player.

Most of the time, this is NOT the case for recently published material for PF. The AP’s are written for using 15 point buy for PC’s (most groups use 20 or 25), for players (many groups have 5 or 6 players), and most importantly they assume pretty much neophyte players without much system mastery (yours and many other groups have much more than that). That can make a huge deal.

I usually find that any encounter that was intended to be significant or challenging I basically have to re-write and massively up the power level. I double quantity, add class levels, optimize builds, adjust tactics, add traps, environmental barriers, add hostages, and/or improve equipment.

If I don’t, they just waltz through the entire thing without any real effort. Quickly becomes boring for everyone.

It took me a while to accept the significant power difference between the minimum assumed by the authors and what my experienced players actually bring to the table.


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One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned, if you do decide the summons must be summoned on the ground you could also say that they can't use their talon attack on while walking (considering this is the advice forum).

Also, since they're going to attack to the best of their ability, and if they summoned on the ground next to a goblin. They'd likely take flight (remember you control them), which would provoke an attack of opportunity. I'd tell your player that before springing that on them. At the very least that'll get you a round where the eagle can't full attack.

I'm fairly certain if they fail their hover check they have to continue movement, which means they'll likely be provoking AoOs and only getting 1 attack.

Lastly don't forget about Fighting Defensively and Total Defense, the former granting them an AC 18, and the latter granting an AC 20. That's going to make it rather difficult for the Eagle to hit.


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ElterAgo wrote:

Just remembered another thing I had to learn for the more recent versions of the game.

Back in my AD&D and 2nd Ed days, we could usually run the modules as written. They were normally decent to challenging for the average player.

Most of the time, this is NOT the case for recently published material for PF. The AP’s are written for using 15 point buy for PC’s (most groups use 20 or 25), for players (many groups have 5 or 6 players), and most importantly they assume pretty much neophyte players without much system mastery (yours and many other groups have much more than that). That can make a huge deal.

I usually find that any encounter that was intended to be significant or challenging I basically have to re-write and massively up the power level. I double quantity, add class levels, optimize builds, adjust tactics, add traps, environmental barriers, add hostages, and/or improve equipment.

If I don’t, they just waltz through the entire thing without any real effort. Quickly becomes boring for everyone.

It took me a while to accept the significant power difference between the minimum assumed by the authors and what my experienced players actually bring to the table.

So...looking for another player? :D


Ssyvan wrote:

One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned, if you do decide the summons must be summoned on the ground you could also say that they can't use their talon attack on while walking (considering this is the advice forum).

Also, since they're going to attack to the best of their ability, and if they summoned on the ground next to a goblin. They'd likely take flight (remember you control them), which would provoke an attack of opportunity. I'd tell your player that before springing that on them. At the very least that'll get you a round where the eagle can't full attack.

I'm fairly certain if they fail their hover check they have to continue movement, which means they'll likely be provoking AoOs and only getting 1 attack.

Lastly don't forget about Fighting Defensively and Total Defense, the former granting them an AC 18, and the latter granting an AC 20. That's going to make it rather difficult for the Eagle to hit.

Saying an eagle can't use its talons when on the ground would be a pretty sharp departure from the rules, IMHO. It would raise a ton of odd questions: How can an octopus swim at all if it uses all its tentacles for attacking? How many does it need to move? Etc...


Experiment 626 wrote:

...

So...looking for another player? :D

Well actually, I'm taking a break from GM'ing at the moment. I am just joining a new group partially due to scheduling difficulties and they already have a long time GM.


another thing to keep in mind is that as the game progresses, enemies can have ways to affect multiple combatants; 1 multitarget spell can wipe out summoned swarms or groups (firebrand, for example, or scorching ray - at level 10CL, the summoner summons 3 archons - enemy caster casts empowered scorching ray (maybe even with a metamagic rod of some kind, if they're super beefy summons). all archons are instantly smited - or optionally, he sends a ray or two at the summoner himself, who melts instantly, or gets a bad case of missing eyebrows/hair.

ElterAgo is making the most important point - if you don't advance the mobs to reflect a more powerful challenge, and that player has maximized his character to be uber, he'll stomp all your scenarios, regardless of what class he picks. If you DO advance your mobs to keep up with him, the other PCs will probably get killted. Thus, the problem is the player, not the class. If I were to make a really beefy maxpower magus, the same problem would occur - how do you throw a scary boss at the party when some Pc has a kensai-magus who can rock up and do 15d6 lighting damage (shocking grasp - a level 1 spell, intensified - now a level 2 spell - empowered with magus arcana, on hit with his keen +2 scimitar). if he crits (15+ on a d20), that's like 100 damage on his first round, on average. Fantastically unbalanced, but almost every class in the game has some skill/weapon/item/archetype combo that allows them to do horrible things to designed encounters.

If a player insists that he has the right to be teh godzilla because the rules allow it, just take em aside and let them know that the other players just can't keep up with his level of play. Unless he's a douche, he'll probably take a step back to help you work out a solution. If he still insists on powerplaying, then don't feel bad nerfing him. It's more important that all the players enjoy the game, than one player enjoying it while everyone else sighs and asks to put their characters on autopilot while they go out for a snack. If he decides your game isn't for him, then it won't be your fault.


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Yeah - I've been advancing my mobs (usually on the fly) ever since we started PF a year ago. The whole "action economy" thing and 5:1 players vs BBEG dynamic making that pretty clear.

I try to balance it so that I don't kill my players. Unless they get stupid or really careless.

And I get that his MS is only really OP at these lower levels. There are other classes that can do as much, though not quite as fast perhaps.

It was largely the "surprise! I'm going to throw this curve at you!" that prompted me to seek advice. A standard Summoner wouldn't have been such an issue - any class with an animal companion would be the same problem. It was the 10x duration, multiple active summonings that could grow quite large at lvl 1 that threw me.

And then he added the Augmented Summoning thing, plus the Summon Good Monster feat. Altogether, looking at the AP, I was like: "Damn! How do I deal with all of that from 1 guy? Obviously I need to tweak the encounters, but just how without it becoming 'I am doing this because of YOU!'?"


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yeah man, I think every dm has hit that speedbump at one time or another, when some player finds a loophole or maxes out and throws your predesigned encounter ashambles. I guess it's only natural - I mean, what player wants to make a character that doesn't shine. Who rolls a PC and says, "hm, how can I make an utterly useless two-handed warrior? I know, I'll give him an 8 strength, 18 charisma, and take all Craft: pottery and Knowledge:Paintings with my skill ranks!" On the other hand, I think it's a good principle to not be afraid of a little constructive confrontation: I have no problem telling a PC that he's F*ing with the game balance, and asking him to help me out. But that comes with its own problems, as there's always one powerplayer (at least) in a group, and they always seem to lose their cool when they're told to put down the dynamite.


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Sissyl wrote:
Ssyvan wrote:

One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned, if you do decide the summons must be summoned on the ground you could also say that they can't use their talon attack on while walking (considering this is the advice forum).

Also, since they're going to attack to the best of their ability, and if they summoned on the ground next to a goblin. They'd likely take flight (remember you control them), which would provoke an attack of opportunity. I'd tell your player that before springing that on them. At the very least that'll get you a round where the eagle can't full attack.

I'm fairly certain if they fail their hover check they have to continue movement, which means they'll likely be provoking AoOs and only getting 1 attack.

Lastly don't forget about Fighting Defensively and Total Defense, the former granting them an AC 18, and the latter granting an AC 20. That's going to make it rather difficult for the Eagle to hit.

Saying an eagle can't use its talons when on the ground would be a pretty sharp departure from the rules, IMHO. It would raise a ton of odd questions: How can an octopus swim at all if it uses all its tentacles for attacking? How many does it need to move? Etc...

Right, it's certainly not a rule and if you were to go with that it should be done with advance notice. It's just an option to consider.

I have a normal summoner in my game, and so far he certainly hasn't tipped the scales of balance one way or the other. And I've been rather relaxed about summon control, summoned location, and beyond. That said, our combats do tend to last a very very long time due to his summon monster ability. I've worked him to speed that up, but he usually has his eidolon out so it isn't much of an issue.


Otherwhere wrote:

Yeah - I've been advancing my mobs (usually on the fly) ever since we started PF a year ago. The whole "action economy" thing and 5:1 players vs BBEG dynamic making that pretty clear.

I try to balance it so that I don't kill my players. Unless they get stupid or really careless.

And I get that his MS is only really OP at these lower levels. There are other classes that can do as much, though not quite as fast perhaps.

It was largely the "surprise! I'm going to throw this curve at you!" that prompted me to seek advice. A standard Summoner wouldn't have been such an issue - any class with an animal companion would be the same problem. It was the 10x duration, multiple active summonings that could grow quite large at lvl 1 that threw me.

And then he added the Augmented Summoning thing, plus the Summon Good Monster feat. Altogether, looking at the AP, I was like: "Damn! How do I deal with all of that from 1 guy? Obviously I need to tweak the encounters, but just how without it becoming 'I am doing this because of YOU!'?"

One other thing to consider that is specific to the eagle case. It is better for the Goblins to attack and move back 10 feet (which provokes an AoO), than it is for them to stay put. Keep your goblins mobile and force the eagle to use a move action. That way, at worst it is only getting two attacks rather than three.

EDIT: And I should say, that the goblins can use acrobatics to do this movement to attempt to avoid the AoO. I think they'd need a 9 on a d20, if they pass they don't provoke. If they fail, well then the eagle still has to attack.


Ah yes! Acrobatics! They are agile little buggers.

I did give some of the earlier ones "Roll with it!", and succeeded on an otherwise lethal attack during the (Spoiler!) Glassworks encounter.

I could have them Roll away, or try to, when they get attacked.

But you bring up some good points to remember. 2 attacks, one being an AoO, is better than 3!


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Ssyvan wrote:
Otherwhere wrote:

Yeah - I've been advancing my mobs (usually on the fly) ever since we started PF a year ago. The whole "action economy" thing and 5:1 players vs BBEG dynamic making that pretty clear.

I try to balance it so that I don't kill my players. Unless they get stupid or really careless.

And I get that his MS is only really OP at these lower levels. There are other classes that can do as much, though not quite as fast perhaps.

It was largely the "surprise! I'm going to throw this curve at you!" that prompted me to seek advice. A standard Summoner wouldn't have been such an issue - any class with an animal companion would be the same problem. It was the 10x duration, multiple active summonings that could grow quite large at lvl 1 that threw me.

And then he added the Augmented Summoning thing, plus the Summon Good Monster feat. Altogether, looking at the AP, I was like: "Damn! How do I deal with all of that from 1 guy? Obviously I need to tweak the encounters, but just how without it becoming 'I am doing this because of YOU!'?"

One other thing to consider that is specific to the eagle case. It is better for the Goblins to attack and move back 10 feet (which provokes an AoO), than it is for them to stay put. Keep your goblins mobile and force the eagle to use a move action. That way, at worst it is only getting two attacks rather than three.

EDIT: And I should say, that the goblins can use acrobatics to do this movement to attempt to avoid the AoO. I think they'd need a 9 on a d20, if they pass they don't provoke. If they fail, well then the eagle still has to attack.

Crap, just realized too late for editing. They'll need an 11 if he's using Augment Summons. Still that's .75 hits per round on average, rather than 1.5 hits.

EDIT: This stretches things perhaps a bit too far, but you could also switch their Skilled racial trait with Tree Runner from the Advanced Race Guide, which would boost their acrobatics to +6. I wouldn't recommend doing that though.


The biggest issue with the summoner, regardless of the archetype being used, is that the summon spells have been difficult to build around without creating issues at the table since 3.0 was first released. I would be less concerned about a specific creature, as those concerns will come and go throughout the various levels, and focus more on how it affects the speed of combat. Only allowing two sets of summons, one of which could be the eidolon, would be a good way to deal with this that doesn't specifically target the summoner directly, but rather deals with the challenges of relying on the summon spells. Also, instead of rolling each attack of each summoned creature individually, you might go with one set of rolls for the entire group of summoned creatures. It speeds up combat, and also makes it so that the downsides of having low + to hit, which is going to be fairly common for most summoned creatures, come up more often, as the misses will be less likely to be drowned out by the sheer number of attacks being attempted. The key is to apply the house rules to all casters who use the summon spells, or anything similar.

When it comes to specific creatures, terrain, tactics, and numbers are your friends. Use them all to the best advantage, and force the player to not rely on just one creature for an extended period of time. Let the player enjoy shredding through goblins right now, because soon enough, he'll face different foes that will require him to adjust his tactics to remain competitive.

The key to all of this is to not focus on the class or the current level when making what will be a long term decision, but on the underlying spells that are available in some form or another to every caster in the game. Neither the base summoner nor the master summoner are the only ones that brings these issues to the table, even they do tend to highlight them more than most other classes. Don't be afraid to explain that while the trigger for any changes is the experience with the master summoner archetype, the problem is more with the way that the summon spells work and interact with the rest of the game in general. By framing the problem in a broader context, it will hopefully be easier to get that player to see the larger problem and thus be more amenable to new house rules and a certain amount of self regulation.

Sovereign Court

In other news:

BAN HERO LAB!


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and now the tire fire has been lit

Sovereign Court

Other way to speed up play: have all the summons be DM controlled for their Moves and placement. The DM rolls d20 once and asks player "what's the critters atk bonus?"

' Cause i don't think the summons are mind readers... they'll attack to the best of their ability but if low Int they'll just swarm or use pack attack tactic.

Sovereign Court

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Lamontius wrote:

and now the tire fire has been lit

don't you love that smell? :)


no


The way to speed things up is make sure the summoner is prepared. I have all my summons stats on my computer. When my turn comes around, I know what they are going to do and what dice I need are there ready to roll. It's really like any other caster with their list of spells.


People are posting that other casters are just as powerful or even more so...REALLY?? I don't see how. All of the classes they say this about have to prepare their spells, this is a MAJOR drawback unless your GM is allowing his players to prep perfect spells for most battles AND allowing them to rest whenever they complain they need to. Not only does the summoner save up his spells for major battles by contributing to the little ones mostly with his edilon(which if built well is better than most other melee classes), he also gets many spells at a lower spell level slot. These early spells are almost exclusively buffs and conjurations where the save DC doesn't matter!!
The wizard is said to be more powerful, the most often...HOGWASH! most people spend more time playing low level PC's than very high level(where it MIGHT be true). The summoner's edilon could EASILY kill a wizard of the same level unless that wizard gets VERY lucky up until about mid levels. Yes, a well built wizard can be tremendous at high levels. But he can also be worthless at times when his available spells aren't useful, this pretty much NEVER happens to a well built summoner of ANY level. He can most always summon at least something moderately useful and buff the heck out of that AND the rest of the party.
I've played on many tables with pretty much all the prepared casters AND with summoners. They are indeed quite overpowered, as are quite a few of the newer classes compared to the standard ones. Although excellent GMing can help ease the pain felt by the other players at the table, it will be as difficult....as say trying to keep your 11 year old son feeling like he's not left out when playing with adults in a pickup basketball game. It is one of PF biggest problems, and was completely avoidable IMO. It seems obvious they did this to get people to buy more books containing ever more powerful options. While a decent short term marketing strategy, it may well be the main reason people will move on to other more balanced RPG's.

Liberty's Edge

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Meager Rolmug wrote:
Wall of text

1) Paragraphs.

2) The summoner spell list is one of the shining class features (and a reason why I ban summoners), haste at level 4 is silly, and there are a number of other great spells that you get early access to. That said, summoners don't begin to approach the number of spells per day an Arcanist, let alone a Wizard or Sorcerer have. As long as you're just buffing the eidolon, that's not a big issue, but it definitely means summoners have less flexibility and staying power (in the spells department).

Meager Rolmug wrote:
The summoner's edilon could EASILY kill a wizard of the same level unless that wizard gets VERY lucky up until about mid levels.

Well, it's an initiative check to see if the wizard gets color spray off first, at low levels, but I agree; early on the summoner beats the pants of the wizard in staying power. At level 5, that starts to change.

Meager Rolmug wrote:
He can most always summon at least something moderately useful and buff the heck out of that AND the rest of the party.

4) A wizard can do precisely the same thing, with spell slots to spare. An occultist arcanist can even do the min/level summons trick.


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Meager Rolmug, replace wizard in your argument with druid. A base core caster type. Is the summoner's edilon going to easily kill the druid + pet? or hunter + pet? Try comparing like to like once. Do that and they seem pretty normal instead of "quite overpowered".


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Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Summons generally have really weak accuracy - they just have multiple swings & he can get bunches of them.

Start giving the goblins decent armor and watch those eagles make lots of whiffs. It'll affect the other characters somewhat - but less than the summons.

A goblin with four mirror armor (cheap) and a heavy wooden shield (cheap) suddenly has an AC of 21.

For summons that spam attacks with terrible to hit, there is always low CR crucians.


Just an idea: throw an Unnerve Beasts hex on him? The text isn't clear if this would make his eagles attack him if there are no closer enemies, or if they would simply fly off in agitation.

He could dismiss them, but it would serve to put a damper on his summoning for a couple of hours. IF he fails his Will save, which is about a 35-40% chance.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rastrum wrote:
Isn't master summoner explicitly called out as being mostly for solo adventures, and being DM discretion to allow otherwise?

Don't know about that, but I do recall that even James Jacobs bans the summoner almost entirely from his home games. The Master and the Synthesist are banned from PFS play.


Otherwhere wrote:

re: banning the MS completely: I am really trying to make this work, and it does mean upping my game as GM - which is why I am seeking advice on countering summoned creatures.

Yes on: environment making summons difficult "low ceilings" etc. Yes on "Prot vs" for some NPCs. Yes on adding more HP and a few more minions to balance out the additional player-side team members.

Yeah - the small elementals add a whole new level of "yikes" to this. But that would be true of just about any character able to summon them. (And they only get a single attack/rnd, unlike the eagle.)

I also plan to try and keep more pressure on the Summoner directly: ranged attacks and multiple round conditions (deafness; grapple) requiring concentration checks, etc.

I'm going to give it one more session, with him flexing his lvl 3 muscles, before I decide on whether to ban the MS or not. I was thinking of just allowing a standard Summoner. The eidolon alone is not quite as bad, and not too much more powerful than a druid's animal companion - both can have creatures that get multiple attacks at low level.

I'm less concerned with him hogging "table time" as we have agreed that other players at the table will roll for his summoned creatures, just to keep them involved.

I just wanted to chime in here. Summoner was an ambitious attempt to create something new. They did a great job...but it needs revised, because it was so ambitious and different. There are a few dev comments on these boards to that effect, and even an outright "It's broken" quoted I believe, at a convention.

Pathfinder Unchained will address the Summoner (May 5th) for that reason. ...so, if this continues to eat up more of your time, require additional adaptions, actions or house rules--you might issue a stay until the revised class comes out, or at least state your intent to swap once it does.


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LazarX wrote:
Rastrum wrote:
Isn't master summoner explicitly called out as being mostly for solo adventures, and being DM discretion to allow otherwise?
Don't know about that, but I do recall that even James Jacobs bans the summoner almost entirely from his home games. The Master and the Synthesist are banned from PFS play.

Most people that I know and PFS ban it due to the way it bogs down the game rather than the actual power level.

Well played and built Druids and Wizards are stil substantially more powerful.


DrSwordopolis wrote:
Meager Rolmug wrote:
Wall of text

1) Paragraphs.

I made three paragraghs...so what is your complaint? Do you seriously need to have a line in between each? If so, i would say that's your problem(a rather unique one) not mine. A pretty petty comment IMO.

You also seem to think that wizards have way more spells, this is simply not the case. The summoner, bard, inquisitor, magus etc. and i beleive arcanist also, all have the same spell progression which gives them 5 instead of 4 spells known per spell level. This means that until mid levels they only have a few extra spells in total.


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Rastrum wrote:
Isn't master summoner explicitly called out as being mostly for solo adventures, and being DM discretion to allow otherwise?

No. It is meant to be with a party.


Meager Rolmug wrote:
He can most always summon at least something moderately useful and buff the heck out of that AND the rest of the party.

4) A wizard can do precisely the same thing, with spell slots to spare. An occultist arcanist can even do the min/level summons trick.

You miss my point. A summoner can ALWAYS do this if he has some spell slots left, while a wizard would have to PREPARE spells similar to summoner's best spells to do it. Being able to do what another class does well if given time to prepare PERFECTLY, does not equate to being better than that class. The wizard would than be locked in spell wise, but the summoner can still use his none summoning/buff spells if the need arises.

As i mentioned earlier the caster who prepare have a big advantage if forewarned, but an equally big disadvantage if not. Now some of that can be countered with scrolls + wands, but a summoner can expand his spell options the same way, countering the wizard's aforementioned "big advantage"

When you throw earlier access spells in AND a edilon that makes animal companions and familiars look silly in comparison...


graystone wrote:
Meager Rolmug, replace wizard in your argument with druid. A base core caster type. Is the summoner's edilon going to easily kill the druid + pet? or hunter + pet? Try comparing like to like once. Do that and they seem pretty normal instead of "quite overpowered".

The summoner beats the pants off both...unless you ignore the huge disadvantage of your spells being locked in. When was the last time even 70% of a prepared caster's spells were all useful before he needed to renew them? If it is often, in the games you play, i would say your GM is letting you rest up, more often and easier than the module was intended to allow. Or is clueing his players in way more than was intended by the writer of the adventure path intended. These both happen ALOT, so it doesn't surprise me many think spontaneous casters don't have a big advantage. But if played as intended it IS a BIG advantage.

Verdant Wheel

Otherwhere,
I'm sure this was mentioned upthread, but, in releasing a new version of the Summoner in an April-forthcoming new Paizo book, the developers are more or less ceding the point that the Summoner needs to be rewritten. You did, after all, create this entire thread on account of a single character's presence in your game.

If your PCs are essentially okay with you making appropriate and clever adjustments to your encounters, making them last longer all in all, then it doesn't sound like having to up your DM game is altogether problematic.

One of my players casually mentioned "maybe I'll make a Summoner" and my heart skipped a beat... but ended up bringing something else to the table. Whew!

Edit: within 30 minutes of posting this, the PC is vacillating back to Summoner. Oh No! (not kidding!!)


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Meager Rolmug wrote:
graystone wrote:
Meager Rolmug, replace wizard in your argument with druid. A base core caster type. Is the summoner's edilon going to easily kill the druid + pet? or hunter + pet? Try comparing like to like once. Do that and they seem pretty normal instead of "quite overpowered".
The summoner beats the pants off both...unless you ignore the huge disadvantage of your spells being locked in. When was the last time even 70% of a prepared caster's spells were all useful before he needed to renew them? If it is often, in the games you play, i would say your GM is letting you rest up, more often and easier than the module was intended to allow. Or is clueing his players in way more than was intended by the writer of the adventure path intended. These both happen ALOT, so it doesn't surprise me many think spontaneous casters don't have a big advantage. But if played as intended it IS a BIG advantage.

YOU seem to ignore wildshaping. And hunters not being prepared casters. Also recall the it was "The summoner's edilon could EASILY kill a wizard" part I was adding druid or hunter in. How does a summoners casting affect a combat it isn't in? Even if we did add it in, I'm not seeing the summoner side being very far ahead in pet buffing.


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graystone wrote:
Meager Rolmug wrote:
graystone wrote:
Meager Rolmug, replace wizard in your argument with druid. A base core caster type. Is the summoner's edilon going to easily kill the druid + pet? or hunter + pet? Try comparing like to like once. Do that and they seem pretty normal instead of "quite overpowered".
The summoner beats the pants off both...unless you ignore the huge disadvantage of your spells being locked in. When was the last time even 70% of a prepared caster's spells were all useful before he needed to renew them? If it is often, in the games you play, i would say your GM is letting you rest up, more often and easier than the module was intended to allow. Or is clueing his players in way more than was intended by the writer of the adventure path intended. These both happen ALOT, so it doesn't surprise me many think spontaneous casters don't have a big advantage. But if played as intended it IS a BIG advantage.
YOU seem to ignore wildshaping. And hunters not being prepared casters. Also recall the it was "The summoner's edilon could EASILY kill a wizard" part I was adding druid or hunter in. How does a summoners casting affect a combat it isn't in? Even if we did add it in, I'm not seeing the summoner side being very far ahead in pet buffing.

A druid would be a bit harder for the edilon to kill..but not much. Honestly have you played with players that know how to optimize a summoner and his edilon? They often have three attacks at first level! They usually add pounce or super grapple with reach before mid levels are even reached. The summoner himself can be a pretty good caster and his edilon is often a better fighter than a full blown fighter of the same level...that IS broken and better than a druid whose animal companion will NEVER be nearly as good the edilon and doesn't just dissappear when killed. The druid might have some extra flexibilty with shapechange and generally better personal defenses, but a summoner can pretty much do all his best stuff while invisible behind a wall of martials...a near insurmountable defense. And his edilon is nearly a match for the druid by himself.

I think the majority of players/GMs with extensive experience with both classes would agree that the summoner is more powerful than ANY of the original classes. Maybe you are just trying to justify wanting to play a summoner yourself perhaps? Go ahead...maybe you donot know how to optimize the class as well as the druids you have played, they probably had alot more experience with those well established classes than you do with your summoner. But given the same experience and resources the player playing a summoner will more often than not dominate battles playing with any group of classic classes.

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