[Kickstarter] Pact Magic Unbound: Grimoire of Lost Souls project is LIVE!


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Arcanic Drake wrote:
....Maybe I spoke too soon... It kinda slowed down a bit. No activity I can see for today.

That often happens with Kickstarters. Don't get discouraged; we just need to keep spreading the word about the Kickstarter.

Contributor

Silver Griffin wrote:
To me the most iconic pictures are the one showing the guy with the eye in his hand near the index at the end of Secrets of Pact Magic & the one that has Fey Baraddu & Omlan Atlan at the dance together. The composition & use of grey tones in both those really make them stand out.

I'm fairly certain that those are two of Dario's favorites as well.

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I also really like the picture of the demon eye in the race section.

Since the backers have just earned the Secret Stretch Goal that unlocks the demon eye feats, something along those lines could make a comeback.

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I see that getting the Frehmin back, will getting the Demon Eye Race/Template back also be a stretch goal? Or even better already in there, we do need a pact magic race.

Personally, I *don't* think that we need a Pact Magic race. 3.5 had a similar mindset and it was poorly received. That said, there are about three races that we've (Dario and I) talked about a lot in Pact Magic, and I'm hoping to get some of them into the esoteria section like we did with the mutamorphs and nashi in Age of Electrotech.

Currently, the backers have unlocked the fremhin race. The other *maybe* is the aranean race and the atlan race. Dario and I still haven't decided how we want to handle the atlans, however. Its still something we're talking about.

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I would also like to say that the pics of the pact warrior putting his arm back on & the woman morphing into the hound (Villains of Pact Magic) are also very evocative pieces of art.
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I also want to say while the pic itself wasn't that great for Mute Sylvis I loved that there were flying owlbears in it. That had to be what the wizard who first made them was trying to get.

Between Dario and I, neither of us are really championing either of those two pieces.

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Silver Griffin wrote:
While I'm at I have a few other questions. First while most of the original classes have been converted to archetypes there are still 2 that I miss from the original books. None of the archetypes really cover the Warbinder & its use of Vivilors. A group boosting pet class seems like a fairly unique class in this case & I don't see how you could do it justice with an archetype. Plus the battle trance the pact warrior lost when becoming an archetype would be a great fit for it.

The fighter archetype got renamed "warbinder" instead of "warshade." The two are similar, but you can be the judge of whether or not I need to go the extra mile when the funding period ends and you get the playtest document.

I don't recall how the warbinder uses vilvors; I thought they were enemies. I'll have to look it up. If vilvors make it into the book, they'll be something primarily for occultists, I imagine. If they get in, I'll make sure that the warbinder fighter can use them too.

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Also what about the Raviged Soul class from villains. It makes too many changes to the class to really qualify as an archtype & it was great for making NPC's. (Anima are going to be done in the new book right?) One of my most feared NPC's was an ogre Ravaged Soul (to lady of blades) with the Lemurian Devil Binder prestige class.

I'll look into ravaged soul. We (Dario and I) skipped talking about the ravaged altogether in Pact Magic Unbound thus far because we haven't had a good place to introduce them.

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Speaking of which I understand that we are going for 20 pages of presitge classes (Yay), but the original had over 30 pages. PLEASE tell me that the Devil/Demon/Angel binder classes are still going to be there. How many of the old classes are going to be converted & why were the others left out (details please). Also while there are going to be a huge amount of archetypes with one for each class, there will still be some new ones for the base class. It needs more.

On Devil/Demon/Angel binders. The answer is, "Probably not." One of my long-term goals is to develop a subsystem (sort of like animism) where you can actually summon specific outsiders, bind them, and gain their powers. Its my take on the Keys of Solomon the Wise. If we get high enough it COULD be a stretch goal in this Kickstarter, but I'm not confident that we'd get that far.

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Any chance we will get a section on restoring spirits to life & the consequences like in the original book? How about the optional supernatural taint rules from the back of the book. That would be an optional rule, but I found it really helps drive home the fact that this is forbidden magic with consequences even if I never used it on PC's.

I need to read through that section and figure out how many pages it would take me to talk about it before determining if it would be a good stretch goal. In earnest, I've never had anyone ask me for that section to return before.


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Amen. Races guided towards subsystems tend to suck in many cases. As much as I love psionics, for example, I consider 4 races of the base psionic races good...the rest. Well.

As an idea, especially for e.g. the atlan's - why not codify pact magic's racial bonuses along the lines of alternate racial traits for certain races? Or as a kind of ethnicity/cultural-template?


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I also feel like we don't necessarily need a pact magic race just for there to be a pact magic race; if there was one, I'd like it for it to be something that has a strong concept that the creator is clearly passionate about that happens to be related to pact magic, rather than something plopped down to fill a perceived niche. Kind of like Alex and kitsune.

Honestly, I think it would be better to provide existing races with a connection to pact magic, either via potential racial feats or possibly racial archetypes (but only if they interact with an empower existing racial traits), or possibly alternate racial traits. Atlans in particular, as I recall, seem to share a lot of conceptual space with gillmen, if not plain humans, so perhaps a suite of alternate racial traits for gillmen might be appropriate?

(Ninja'd by Endzeitgeist!)

Sovereign Court

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Howdy folks!
AncientSpirits here.

Twice over the years I got to run a PC in a pact magic campaign using Secrets of Pact Magic and Villains of Pact Magic. The first PC was a warbinder (1st to 6th level) and the second PC was a pact warrior (13th to 16th level). Besides the unbound witch, these were my two favorite classes. It's ironic that these two classes were the ones that didn't quite make it into the Unbound series for Pathfinder.

The warbinder (SoPM, pages 58-61) is modeled after the marshall class from 3.5. It offers half BAB, good Fort and Will, binding up to 6th level spirits, and abilities flavored for someone who wishes to aid allies and deploy minions. The warbinder offers a spirit aura, similar to the marshall's aura but you can extend a bound ability instead. And starting at 5th level he gets summon warband, which summons a few least vivilors.

Vivilors (described on page 61) are the elementals of the Outer Darkness (aka Dark Beyond). They come in 4 tiers:
least (flit, CR 1, bind 1st level spirit, 5ft fly speed),
lesser (wright, CR 3, bind 2nd level spirit, 10ft fly),
greater (strand, CR 7, bind up to 4th level spirits, 20ft fly), and
grand (mural, CR 11, bind up to 6th level spirits, 30ft fly).

The reason I used names: rather than model directly after the typical elemental, I used whales as the inspiration and they have a certain hierarchical or ecological relationship to each other.

In RPGs, I usually play leader, detective, and tactical/strategist roles. Needless to say, sharing some bound abilities with allies, and summoning creatures with the right spirit for the situation, really fit my style :-).

I often felt really useful and solving difficult situations, such as extending Lady Jarah's alter appearance ability to my allies so we could sneak into an orc complex, or summoning vivilors with Aza'zati's acid gout to attack a nasty shambling mound from the air.

As for the pact warrior, the appeal for me was playing a binder gish. It really was enjoyable to bring in magical effects at just the right moment. In particular, the battle trance options were fun. At 13th level, I could combine a supernatural attack with a weapon attack 6/day, using battle trance 3/day (only one trance needed to fit the spirit I had bound), and I had some great fear and death resistance stuff. In high level campaigns, with a GM who loves Grimtooth's Traps, having abilities like warrior's mettle, death ward, and undying grace, were essential.

Finally, I liked the pact warrior because of the names of the trance options (page 47). The day I wrote that column, I felt more inspired than usual.

Looking back, I think that SoPM and VoPM were *slightly* darker than the Unbound series, with emphasis on the word slightly. After all, the unbound witch doesn't just have mutations. I love the picture of her as a troglodyte eating a beating heart... ;-)

Regarding anima, Alex and I left them out for several reasons. My main reason was that they could be used in broken combinations. I made a couple of mistakes in crafting a few of them, though of course those mistakes could be fixed. But overall, it was something to leave for later.

At some point, perhaps for a single adventure, I had a PC with the devil binder prestige class. It was definitely fun. However, I did a sort of cheat by condensing the entire set of 12 binding options into a single 1-page table. Same for binding angels and demons. I think we can do a little better than that next time.

Ultimately, there were tons of things from our campaigns that got into SoPm and VoPM like priest eaters, flame ghouls, the ironheart ghost, living nightmares, pact rajah, the gnostic vault (hello Isaac Asimov), and restoring spirits to life (SoPM pages 304-305). Many of these options reflect a database of science fiction ideas ported into an occult fantasy setting or places where the mechanics suggested an option (e.g. troglodytes, rakshasas, and hobgoblins as high Con folks who would be good at binding). Alex has in mind an occult bestiary as a separate product. And I agree there is enough potential, and a lot of pages of flavor already written, to appear separately from what will already be a 300+ page grimoire.


Might it be possible to turn down the blatant obviousness of the Frehmin? I mean, I like an homage as much as the next geek, but every time I read their fluff I feel like I'm being repeatedly pounded by a sledgehammer with DUNE embossed on the striking face. ^.^


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A pact magic bestiary would certainly be interesting; another pact magic product I would be interested in would be a collection of pact magic related organizations and NPCs, both those seeking to eradicate pact magic as well as those who use it for their own purposes, whether good, evil, or somewhere in between. Seems like it would make the lives of many a DM interested in pact magic easier...or perhaps DMs who are allowing players to use pact magic without necessarily being that interested in it themselves.

@Evil Midnight Lurker: Yeah, I kind of felt the same way when I read Mana's legend...OH HO HO HOW TERRIBLY SUBTLE...

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Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
Might it be possible to turn down the blatant obviousness of the Frehmin? I mean, I like an homage as much as the next geek, but every time I read their fluff I feel like I'm being repeatedly pounded by a sledgehammer with DUNE embossed on the striking face. ^.^

It'll be turned WAY down. I want to focus on stuff that makes the frehmin cool.

Contributor

Luthorne wrote:
A pact magic bestiary would certainly be interesting; another pact magic product I would be interested in would be a collection of pact magic related organizations and NPCs, both those seeking to eradicate pact magic as well as those who use it for their own purposes, whether good, evil, or somewhere in between. Seems like it would make the lives of many a DM interested in pact magic easier...or perhaps DMs who are allowing players to use pact magic without necessarily being that interested in it themselves.

I honestly have no idea how I would even do an Occult NPC Codex.

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@Evil Midnight Lurker: Yeah, I kind of felt the same way when I read Mana's legend...OH HO HO HOW TERRIBLY SUBTLE...

I always pictured that one as a bit of an "Order of the Stick" Legend. It felt very Rich Berlew to me.

That said, Dario's actually gone and reimagined some of the less imaginative legends in his original product. I don't know how many will be in the Grimoire of Lost Souls, but all of them will be in Love's Tapestry. And man, let me tell you, all of them are good, but some of them are truly FANTASTIC. I want to call out his new legend for Hollow Eyes in particular as being masterfully done.

Sovereign Court

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As Alex said, Mana's legend was meant to be entirely tongue in cheek. I wrote it when 4E was in the design phase so there is a certain "thumb in the face" to 4E in there too.

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This is all very relevant considering that the Kickstarter JUST earned the fremhin stretch goal, so we'll be looking for feedback on the frehmin (and demon eye) update.

I'm still chatting with Dario about the atlans; I don't want to make them a stretch goal until Dario and I have decided what to do with them. They might just have to be relegated to the Weird Bestiary, which would make sense considering that they're supposed to be wiped out to some extent.


900 more to go before color hits (well, a bit less than that)! I would cross my fingers for it, but it may take more than a couple days and fingers help me do things like eat and type. Hopefully it keeps going though.

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To hold you over while we're (hopefully) waiting for Color, here's my draft of the Demon Eye feats that have been unlocked for the Grimoire:

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Demon Eye

Prenatal exposure to occult influences has warped you into a demon eye, a deformed child of the spirits.

Prerequisites: Must be taken character level 1st.

Benefit: Select one constellation aspect, chosen from those available to an occultist. Once per day as a standard action, you can open a third eye that protrudes from your forehead in order to activate that constellation aspect, using your character level as your occultist level.

When you select this feat, you gain the occult subtype in addition to your other subtypes and you gain one of the following deformities. Once you select a deformity, you cannot change it later.

Cloven Hooves (Ex) Instead of feet, your legs end in a set of cracked, ugly hooves that restrict your movement. Your base speed is reduced by 10 feet if your base speed is 30 feet or more. If your base speed is less than 30 feet, your speed is reduced by 5 feet instead. Your speed is never reduced by encumbrance.

Spiny Skin (Ex): You possess thick, leathery sinew that is covered in unsightly stubs. You take a –4 penalty on Diplomacy and Handle Animal checks and any animal or person’s initial attitude towards you starts one level lower than normal. You gain a +1 natural armor bonus to your Armor Class.

Misshapen Arm (Ex): One of your arms is disproportionate to the other and ends with a twisted, claw-like appendage. Select one of your hands. You are considered to be one size category smaller when wielding weapons in that hand and any shield bonus that you gain from wielding a shield in that hand is reduced by half (minimum 1). In addition, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with two-handed weapons and on Disable Device and Sleight of Hand skill checks. You gain a slam attack with your chosen hand that deals 1d6 points of damage (or 1d4 if you are Small). Your slam attack can deal bludgeoning damage, slashing damage, or both.

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Demon Eye Exemplar

You turn weakness into strength, mastering your deformity for additional benefit.
Prerequisites: Demon Eye, character level 10th.

Benefit: Select one deformity that is listed by the Demon Eye feat. You gain the selected deformity. Alternatively, you can select a deformity that you already possess in order to gain an additional benefit, as described below.

Cloven Hooves (Ex): Your speed is never reduced by armor or encumbrance.
Spiny Skin (Ex): You gain acid resistance 5, cold resistance 5, and fire resistance 5.

Misshapen Arm (Ex): The damage dealt by your slam attack increases to 1d8 if you are Medium or 1d6 if you are Small.

Special: You can select this feat multiple times. Its effects don’t stack. Each time you select this feat, choose a different deformity to gain.

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Extra Demon Eye

You can open your third eye more often than other demon eyes.

Prerequisite: Demon Eye.

Benefit: You can use your demon eye to gain your chosen constellation aspect one additional time per day.

Special: This feat can be taken once at 1st level, 6th level, 12th level, and 18th level.

As an aside, there's also going to be a prestige class for characters with the Demon Eye feat that's similar to the evangelist (from Inner Sea Gods), except its designed to reduce the feat taxes associated with being a Demon Eye in exchange for delaying your other class features by a few levels.

That is, if the Prestige Class goal unlocks. ;-)

Otherwise, I might just stick it into the Esoteria section or make it into a cheap PDF if I don't have room there. The class is basically done.


For the Extra Demon Eye feat, are you intending to grant extra feats at 6th, 12th, and 18th levels or are those options a holdover from v3.x? I presume that in Pathfinder, the additional opportunities for the feat would take place at levels where standard feats are available. Maybe 7th, 13th, and 19th?


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Thanks for taking the time to address what I said. Sorry if this post is overlong, but when my internet went out I spent a lot of my time going over what I wanted to say.

I don’t want the demon eye race/template there to fill a niche. I like the template because it’s one of the 3 things that I used to help cement the fact that there is a reason why pact magic is forbidden (a much bigger focus in the original book). The first was the supernatural taint rules. It was about half a page in the back of the book, but it dripped with flavor. To me it was a much better way to detail long term effects of using pact magic than the first rule listed in Secrets of Pact Magic. With a slight tweaking & the addition of some pact spirit flavored haunts you could even use it to explain why an area was stained by the practice of pact magic.

The second was the ravages (not related to the ravaged soul class, those actually are just bound to 1 anima permanently). They were a danger & the fact that they might have come from pact magic users really ups the whole forbidden for a reason aspect of the art. Their ability to posses creatures & the simple template for creatures under their control great way to have pact styled opponents without having to make a new character every time. I really hope you bring them back soon. Pact magic monsters are one of the sections that the new books haven’t really covered. Honestly I would really like to see more on them show up soon (both ravages & pact magic monsters). Or at least some templates that give creatures a more occult feel.

The last & certainly not least were the demon eyes. Now I hated the name because it gave the wrong impression & would love for them to be renamed something like scarred souls. I loved the idea that it was a simple template that showed the side effects of people using pact magic. Best of all it didn’t have to be the parent, it could be your grandfather, an object buried under your house or even that strange woman that likes to read a lot. Any of them could the secret reason why your child came out altered in both body & mind. That it could warp babies before they are born is much scarier than just saying the person acts odd sometimes. I can totally see “witch” hunts for the binder who is “causing” problems in a town.

Since the race was used as a template it could be used with any regular race. Now Pathfider has kind of done away with/skipping over level adjustments for characters, the best way I can see to do this is to have it be a racial class that can be taken by any race at first level. That way you don’t have to worry about what to take from each race & still keep things balanced. So any character could take a level in it to show they were a scarred soul and still be viable at first level because they would have hit dice & skill points. Hopefully we could do a better job with them this time. I loved the idea behind the race much more than the mechanics of it. Taking a feat just doesn’t have the same feel.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Now I like the Frehmin race (especially now that you are tuning down the Dune references). To me they always felt like they would be a good choice for psionic characters. Any chance that we might get some favored class options for the psionic classes for them?

As far as other pact magic races I have always liked the aranea & the rakshasa (though pathfinders expansion of them would make it harder to give the whole race the same vibe). The troglodytes never worked for me. As far as the atlan go I always preferred the true atlan listed in the back. It matched the vibe from the history of the book much better. The ones in the race section should have been called atlan blooded since they were only vaguely related to the atlan of old. Maybe even a sorcerer bloodline for them. This makes sense when you consider that the gods wiped them out for their heresy. Though I admit that like the destruction of the Azlan in Golarion I though the aboleth had something to do with it. Mostly because due to a lot of articles in the old Dragon Magazine saying they were masters of glyph magic I associate the aboleth strongly with pact magic. It helps make them more than just another underdark psionic race & really ups their lovecraftian vibe. Please consider this a suggestion for future updates.

I’m a little disappointed by their not being any anima in the book. Though I would rather get them later & know that all the kinks have been worked out. Obviously that means there won’t be the ravaged soul class in the book since it is based off those. Can I recommend that in the future you call it something like Soulbound? That way it follows the one word custom that Paizo has been using & is less likely to confuse somebody into thinking that it is focused on the ravages themselves.

We could probably have a book just for the anima & maybe adding stuff from the occult adventures book when it comes out. Then a third book going over organizations like the purifiers, places like the nightfang weald, the apocryphal desert & the ravaged sea. Plus some pact monsters like the flame ghoul & the living nightmare. Dario put a LOT of really good stuff in his book. It’s going to take 2-3 books the size of what’s being proposed to cover it all.

The warshade now known as the warbinder is more of an update of the old pact warrior than the old warshade. It does have access to higher level spirits though. As Dario pointed out it’s more of a leader with summons than a straight fighter. I suppose you could do it as a bard or summoner archetype. But it seems unique enough to me that it could be its own class or even a prestige class. I do miss the battle trances for the pact warrior. Perhaps they could become feats (or get added to a new warshade class)?

I love the idea of the rules for binding demons etc. to be expanded but I’m not sure what the difference would be between summoning a particular type of demon & a specific one other than the flavoring. Can you expand on that just a bit?

Also I see you have an expansion product out called Occult Options. Is that already included in the book or is that a stretch goal?

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AinvarG wrote:
For the Extra Demon Eye feat, are you intending to grant extra feats at 6th, 12th, and 18th levels or are those options a holdover from v3.x? I presume that in Pathfinder, the additional opportunities for the feat would take place at levels where standard feats are available. Maybe 7th, 13th, and 19th?

I haven't decided. The progression is loosely based off of the Extra Evolution feat, which also uses non-standard levels.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Have you made some major alterations to constellation aspects? As they are now, the Demon Eye feat seems pretty funky, given the lack of duration and having to take a standard action. I'm mostly thinking of passive constellation aspects that grant an insight bonus to a skill or to a save or low-light vision or somesuch...but also the immediate action or move action constellation aspects, which become a lot worse if you can only activate them as a standard action. But in the case of the former, as a standard action, I open my demon eye, and get an insight bonus to a skill...for how long? Indefinitely? An hour? A minute? A round? Mind, if you got rid of all the ones that grant passive benefits and the ones with an action to use shorter than a standard action, I suppose it's fine as it is.

I'd also suggest, barring constellation aspects having been buffed a bit to scale and become more powerful, that Extra Demon Eye allow more uses. As it is, constellation aspects are cantrip-level, and while I will accept that potentially the deformity makes up for the use of spending a feat for something cantrip-level with Demon Eye (since normally gaining a 1/day cantrip/orison level effect is in the realm of traits, while feats (such as Arcane Talent or Varisian Tattoo) usually offer 3/day), I feel like you should offer 2-3 more uses at the cost of having to spend an extra feat...even Magical Tail grants two spell-like abilities per pop after all, and far above cantrip level.

The discussion of extra evolution is interesting, but unless constellation aspects improves, I think an evolution is considerably more powerful, offering a +8 bonus to a skill check, a climb speed, a swim speed, scent, a natural attack, etc. Just my two cents; I do think they're interesting feats, but I might prefer to just take the Mutant Eye trait from Quests & Campaigns and leave the rest up to flavor as it currently stands.

Contributor

Silver Griffin wrote:
I don’t want the demon eye race/template there to fill a niche. I like the template because it’s one of the 3 things that I used to help cement the fact that there is a reason why pact magic is forbidden (a much bigger focus in the original book). The first was the supernatural taint rules. It was about half a page in the back of the book, but it dripped with flavor. To me it was a much better way to detail long term effects of using pact magic than the first rule listed in Secrets of Pact Magic. With a slight tweaking & the addition of some pact spirit flavored haunts you could even use it to explain why an area was stained by the practice of pact magic.

Dario and I are still talking about what we want to do with the Supernatural Taint rules. Certainly one of our goals for this book is to true encapsulate WHY Pact Magic is forbidden and taboo. I don't think that I've done a good job of that in the Pact Magic Unbound series so far; there are far too many diehard occult sympathizes. >: )

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The second was the ravages (not related to the ravaged soul class, those actually are just bound to 1 anima permanently). They were a danger & the fact that they might have come from pact magic users really ups the whole forbidden for a reason aspect of the art. Their ability to posses creatures & the simple template for creatures under their control great way to have pact styled opponents without having to make a new character every time. I really hope you bring them back soon. Pact magic monsters are one of the sections that the new books haven’t really covered. Honestly I would really like to see more on them show up soon (both ravages & pact magic monsters). Or at least some templates that give creatures a more occult feel.

I like the ravaged too and I actually have a ravaged spirit written; I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do with it, though.

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The last & certainly not least were the demon eyes. Now I hated the name because it gave the wrong impression & would love for them to be renamed something like scarred souls. I loved the idea that it was a simple template that showed the side effects of people using pact magic. Best of all it didn’t have to be the parent, it could be your grandfather, an object buried under your house or even that strange woman that likes to read a lot. Any of them could the secret reason why your child came out altered in both body & mind. That it could warp babies before they are born is much scarier than just saying the person acts odd sometimes. I can totally see “witch” hunts for the binder who is “causing” problems in a town.

Look at the post directly above yours; instead of a template (which are sort of icky when used on player races), being a demon eye is going to be a series of feats that you can take.

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Since the race was used as a template it could be used with any regular race. Now Pathfider has kind of done away with/skipping over level adjustments for characters, the best way I can see to do this is to have it be a racial class that can be taken by any race at first level. That way you don’t have to worry about what to take from each race & still keep things balanced. So any character could take a level in it to show they were a scarred soul and still be viable at first level because they would have hit dice & skill points. Hopefully we could do a better job with them this time. I loved the idea behind the race much more than the mechanics of it. Taking a feat just doesn’t have the same feel.

I'm not really interested in doing a "pact magic tiefling," which is sort of what some people incorrectly assumed that the demon eye was. Also, the demon eye was originally written during a time where Level Adjustment was a thing, so giving players templates was something that was a bit more conventional. Its not in Pathfinder, so making it a feat chain works better for balance, in my opinion. Also, any race can take the feat, so you can have some really cool Demon Eye race combinations. The only thing that's really different from the 3.5 version is that your type doesn't change to Monstrous Humanoid, a necesscary loss. (It is replaced with your gaining of the occult subtype, however.)

That said, I'm not opposed to writing a template when it comes time to do the Weird Bestiary that's a little more along the lines of the original Secrets of Pact Magic template; ability score bonuses, plus more interactions with the Demon Eye feats and such.

Contributor

Silver Griffin wrote:
Now I like the Frehmin race (especially now that you are tuning down the Dune references). To me they always felt like they would be a good choice for psionic characters. Any chance that we might get some favored class options for the psionic classes for them?

No to the psionic favored class bonuses. I like the frehmins as psionic characters too (we used a frehmin as the picture for Daeminthos, a psychic-themed spirit), but I strongly feel that the Grimoire of Lost Souls needs to be able to stand on its own without too much support from other 3PP. I'm already talking with Dreamscarred Press about crossovers in the future, but for this product, that's not on the table.

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As far as other pact magic races I have always liked the aranea & the rakshasa (though pathfinders expansion of them would make it harder to give the whole race the same vibe).

If we were going to do the rakshasa-themed race, we would do the yahsi instead; humanoids who are descended from rakshasa stock.

I'm still trying to figure out if that's a race that I want to do, because I'd be more tempted to handle the yashi as a feat similar to how I handled the Demon Eye template.

The aranea are going to be included in an upcoming Stretch Goal. I've been a fairly huge champion of their inclusion since the beginning of this book.

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The troglodytes never worked for me.

I'm not sold on the whole, "Take an existing monster and make it into a race," thing. You won't see the troglodytes in the Grimoire of Lost Souls. You may not see them in the Weird Bestiary, either.

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As far as the atlan go I always preferred the true atlan listed in the back. It matched the vibe from the history of the book much better. The ones in the race section should have been called atlan blooded since they were only vaguely related to the atlan of old. Maybe even a sorcerer bloodline for them. This makes sense when you consider that the gods wiped them out for their heresy.

Dario and I are still talking about the atlan; we have very different opinions on what they should be.

Personally, I think they should be handled like the Azlanti human heritage; they're all basically dead, but they represent a superpowered version of humanity. Which is basically true; they intermarried with tons of different races to gain the best traits of each. I've always seen them as pact magic nazis. If we were to take this approach, however, you wouldn't see them until the Weird Bestiary.

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I’m a little disappointed by their not being any anima in the book. Though I would rather get them later & know that all the kinks have been worked out. Obviously that means there won’t be the ravaged soul class in the book since it is based off those. Can I recommend that in the future you call it something like Soulbound? That way it follows the one word custom that Paizo has been using & is less likely to confuse somebody into thinking that it is focused on the ravages themselves.

We're going to keep calling it animism, but the presentation is MUCH different from what it was in Secrets of Pact Magic. Dario was never all that sold on the Secrets of Pact Magic version. Personally, I REALLY like my animism system, but I don't think that its going to make it into the Grimoire of Lost Souls. I think you're going to see it alongside my rendition of angelic invokation and demonic evocation in a fantasy version of 'The Lesser Keys of Solomen the Wise.'

So yes, it DOES exist and we've NOT forgotten it, but I don't think that it really fits into this occult-themed product. I redesigned animism to BE animism, rather than Build-A-Vestige.

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We could probably have a book just for the anima & maybe adding stuff from the occult adventures book when it comes out. Then a third book going over organizations like the purifiers, places like the nightfang weald, the apocryphal desert & the ravaged sea. Plus some pact monsters like the flame ghoul & the living nightmare. Dario put a LOT of really good stuff in his book. It’s going to take 2-3 books the size of what’s being proposed to cover it all.

Pact Monsters are going to stay in their own product (the Weird Bestiary). I'm going to try to get some more of the Occult Locations from Secrets of Pact Magic into the book, but the problem with that is that those locations are going to need some pretty fancy artwork in order for us to do them justice, so its a matter of priorities. I'd rather give you the character options to allow you to tell your own Occult Stories first and then fill in some more detail about the Occult World later.

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The warshade now known as the warbinder is more of an update of the old pact warrior than the old warshade. It does have access to higher level spirits though. As Dario pointed out it’s more of a leader with summons than a straight fighter. I suppose you could do it as a bard or summoner archetype. But it seems unique enough to me that it could be its own class or even a prestige class. I do miss the battle trances for the pact warrior. Perhaps they could become feats (or get added to a new warshade class)?

No promises, but I'll see what I can do.

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I love the idea of the rules for binding demons etc. to be expanded but I’m not sure what the difference would be between summoning a particular type of demon & a specific one other than the flavoring. Can you expand on that just a bit?

Ask me again after the Kickstarter is over. I don't want to spend too much time talking about stuff that won't be in the Kickstarter.

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Also I see you have an expansion product out called Occult Options. Is that already included in the book or is that a stretch goal?

A small number of the Binder Secrets from Occult Options #1 are in the Grimoire of Lost Souls. Generally speaking, I only ported over the Binder Secrets that I felt that I absolutely needed in order to make other options work. I didn't want to devalue the cost of Occult Options #1 for the people who purchased it from me in advance, however.

Contributor

Luthorne wrote:
Have you made some major alterations to constellation aspects? As they are now, the Demon Eye feat seems pretty funky, given the lack of duration and having to take a standard action. I'm mostly thinking of passive constellation aspects that grant an insight bonus to a skill or to a save or low-light vision or somesuch...but also the immediate action or move action constellation aspects, which become a lot worse if you can only activate them as a standard action. But in the case of the former, as a standard action, I open my demon eye, and get an insight bonus to a skill...for how long? Indefinitely? An hour? A minute? A round? Mind, if you got rid of all the ones that grant passive benefits and the ones with an action to use shorter than a standard action, I suppose it's fine as it is.

Constellation Aspects got a major power-up in the Grimoire of Lost Souls. They're all designed to be as powerful as a 1st-level minor granted ability. I'll need to look over them and see if the Demon Eye feat works well with all of them; it is easy enough to say that you gain the benefits for 1 minute/level if no duration is listed, however.

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I'd also suggest, barring constellation aspects having been buffed a bit to scale and become more powerful, that Extra Demon Eye allow more uses. As it is, constellation aspects are cantrip-level, and while I will accept that potentially the deformity makes up for the use of spending a feat for something cantrip-level with Demon Eye (since normally gaining a 1/day cantrip/orison level effect is in the realm of traits, while feats (such as Arcane Talent or Varisian Tattoo) usually offer 3/day), I feel like you should offer 2-3 more uses at the cost of having to spend an extra feat...even Magical Tail grants two spell-like abilities per pop after all, and far above cantrip level.

See above.

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The discussion of extra evolution is interesting, but unless constellation aspects improves, I think an evolution is considerably more powerful, offering a +8 bonus to a skill check, a climb speed, a swim speed, scent, a natural attack, etc. Just my two cents; I do think they're interesting feats, but I might prefer to just take the Mutant Eye trait from Quests & Campaigns and leave the rest up to flavor as it currently stands.

Remember that for one feat, you get the one/day occult eye ability AND one of the deformities listed by the feat. All of the deformities come with a cost, but the abilities that they grant are often potent.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Quote:
Luthorne wrote:
The discussion of extra evolution is interesting, but unless constellation aspects improves, I think an evolution is considerably more powerful, offering a +8 bonus to a skill check, a climb speed, a swim speed, scent, a natural attack, etc. Just my two cents; I do think they're interesting feats, but I might prefer to just take the Mutant Eye trait from Quests & Campaigns and leave the rest up to flavor as it currently stands.
Remember that for one feat, you get the one/day occult eye ability AND one of the deformities listed by the feat. All of the deformities come with a cost, but the abilities that they grant are often potent.

I was specifically referring to the Extra Demon Eye feat, which doesn't grant a buff to your deformities, but if constellation aspects have been made more potent as you say, it may well be worth taking a feat for a single extra use of them. I'll have to reserve my judgment until those tempting playtest materials are in my hands. You tease.

But yeah, depends on the constellation aspects, but duration and activation time should probably be taken into account if they're not all standard activations, unless it is supposed to make some constellation aspects less useful.

Not entirely sure it should be called Demon Eye, though, given that not all spirits are fiends. I can imagine it being called that by some, but perhaps Occult Eye, Cursed Eye, Evil Eye, or Spirit-Blighted Eye might be more appropriate? Or even leave out the eye, since it comes with a deformity as well, and call it Occult Deformity or somesuch? Just a few random notions.

Contributor

Luthorne wrote:
Not entirely sure it should be called Demon Eye, though, given that not all spirits are fiends. I can imagine it being called that by some, but perhaps Occult Eye, Cursed Eye, Evil Eye, or Spirit-Blighted Eye might be more appropriate? Or even leave out the eye, since it comes with a deformity as well, and call it Occult Deformity or somesuch? Just a few random notions.

The name comes from Dario's Secrets of Pact Magic, in which the name "Demon Eye" is one more of superstition and fear than truth.

I'm going to try and find the space to shimmy a small sidebar about demon eyes in the feat section to give some context to the feat.


Would one of the constellation aspects give dark vision? I know I could probably get it through some of the spirits that shapeshift, but I feel like if I ended up not going with shapeshifters, it'd be a handy option. Especially since I tend to play Humans.

Other question. Is there a spirit who's main thing is telekinesis use? Just curious.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm not Alex, but I can say that as things are currently, the only spirit that grants telekinesis is Noble Marius from Pact Magic Unbound, Vol. 2, who allows you to use telekinesis as per the spell 3 + Charisma modifier times per day. If you have Occult Options, Issue #1: Binder Secrets, you can add three uses per day of any minor ability that has a limited number of uses per day, raising that to 6 + Charisma modifier. I believe the only spirits that grant flight to the one they are bound to are N’alyia and Serapith, though both have minutes per level, though I believe you can gain access to various vestigial companions that have flight.


Luthorne wrote:
I'm not Alex, but I can say that as things are currently, the only spirit that grants telekinesis is Noble Marius from Pact Magic Unbound, Vol. 2, who allows you to use telekinesis as per the spell 3 + Charisma modifier times per day. If you have Occult Options, Issue #1: Binder Secrets, you can add three uses per day of any minor ability that has a limited number of uses per day, raising that to 6 + Charisma modifier. I believe the only spirits that grant flight to the one they are bound to are N’alyia and Serapith, though both have minutes per level, though I believe you can gain access to various vestigial companions that have flight.

Ah. Many thanks. I've been using the PFSRD up until now (that's how I found the product and what pushed me to back this book), and they don't show vol. 2 material (which is fine). When the play test comes out, I'll give Marius a look as well as N'alyia and Serapith for flight. I suppose though, if I didn't mind turning into a bird, I could use Fey Baraddu for the flight. Could only melee as a bird admittedly, but long term flight is long term flight.

Thanks again.

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Third Mind wrote:
Would one of the constellation aspects give dark vision? I know I could probably get it through some of the spirits that shapeshift, but I feel like if I ended up not going with shapeshifters, it'd be a handy option. Especially since I tend to play Humans.

I don't think so. Darkvision is typically valued as a 2nd-level spell.

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Other question. Is there a spirit who's main thing is telekinesis use? Just curious.

Yes. Hi'Ryia, a 5th-level Starless spirit.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Yes. Hi'Ryia, a 5th-level Starless spirit.

Sounds awesome.


Hey Alex, you seem to be in the mood to share, so I have a question. Was there any changes to the Minor Binding feat in the new book? I'm curious because there is a possibility one of my players gets access to it next game. If you can't answer that's fine, only 3 weeks (2 games) until the Kickstarter ends and the play test begins.

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Dexion1619 wrote:
Hey Alex, you seem to be in the mood to share, so I have a question. Was there any changes to the Minor Binding feat in the new book? I'm curious because there is a possibility one of my players gets access to it next game. If you can't answer that's fine, only 3 weeks (2 games) until the Kickstarter ends and the play test begins.

Yes. The whole Minor Binding feat chain was replaced with this.

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Amateur Occultist
You have learned the most basic secrets of pact magic.

Prerequisite: You have no levels in a class that has the bind spirits class feature.

Benefit: Select one constellation. You may seal pacts with otherworldly entities that are affiliated to the selected constellation known as spirits. By selecting this feat, you immediately complete all four Knowledge Tasks (ceremony, constellation, personality, and seal) for one 1st-level spirit of your choice that belongs to the selected constellation.
Each day, you may bind one spirit to your soul using pact magic; see Performing a Pact Ritual in Chapter 3. This spirit’s level may not exceed 1st level. Your binder level is equal to half your character level. The DC to resist your spirit’s supernatural powers is equal to 10 + 1/2 your binder level + your Charisma modifier. Regardless of your binding check result, you may not gain a spirit’s capstone empowerment using Amateur Occultist.
Special: If you gain levels in a class that grants the bind spirits class feature, you can immediately trade this feat for one other occult feat of your choice. You must meet this feat’s prerequisites, if any.


Oh wow, big change! Thanks for the heads up! I like that change.

Contributor

Dexion1619 wrote:
Oh wow, big change! Thanks for the heads up! I like that change.

No problem!


Question. Most of my friends on facebook / twitter aren't into pathfinder and I don't think they would be either way (not the table top gaming types). Those that are, aren't much into 3rd party materials themselves sadly. That said, is there any other way I can help try to harvest more possible backers for the project that you would suggest?


Third Mind wrote:
Question. Most of my friends on facebook / twitter aren't into pathfinder and I don't think they would be either way (not the table top gaming types). Those that are, aren't much into 3rd party materials themselves sadly. That said, is there any other way I can help try to harvest more possible backers for the project that you would suggest?

Make Facebook accounts for your pets! Seriously, I've seen it.

Contributor

Skylancer4 wrote:
Third Mind wrote:
Question. Most of my friends on facebook / twitter aren't into pathfinder and I don't think they would be either way (not the table top gaming types). Those that are, aren't much into 3rd party materials themselves sadly. That said, is there any other way I can help try to harvest more possible backers for the project that you would suggest?
Make Facebook accounts for your pets! Seriously, I've seen it.

I'm willing to try just about anything at this point! Dario and I are publicizing, but we're not really having much success. D:>


Alexander Augunas wrote:
I'm willing to try just about anything at this point! Dario and I are publicizing, but we're not really having much success. D:>

Hmm. Not sure. I assume you've tried other popular forums that also deal with pathfinder such as Giants in the Playground and such. Has anyone put up a notice in the pathfinder reddit?

Contributor

Third Mind wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
I'm willing to try just about anything at this point! Dario and I are publicizing, but we're not really having much success. D:>
Hmm. Not sure. I assume you've tried other popular forums that also deal with pathfinder such as Giants in the Playground and such. Has anyone put up a notice in the pathfinder reddit?

I haven't tried Reddit yet. Working on getting something together now.


Hey Alex, submit a press release to Roleplayers Chronicle and to NerdTrek.
That helped LIC get funded.


Interview with GMS magazine?

Contributor

A new Secret Stretch Goal has unlocked for backers to try and unlock.

Non-backers, if you're even mildly interested in this product, you'll want to help them out on this one. If they want to tell you what the rewards are, they can, but my lips are SEALED. ;-)

All I'll say is that it's probably a good idea to follow us on Facebook if you want to see more content added to the Grimoire of Lost Souls for free....


can't wait for this! pledged 15 bucks. excited to see this all compiled together


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This book is going to live right next to my copy of Deep Magic. I love new and innovative magic systems they help break up the standard Rock-Paper-Scissors of the game.

I guess that makes Deep Magic the "Lizard" and Pact Magic "Spock"?


Sorry to ask so many questions, but I'm just curious. Anyone know how well the Pact Magic classes meld with the mythic system? Is there a particular mythic path that fits them the best that someone might suggest?

Contributor

Third Mind wrote:
Sorry to ask so many questions, but I'm just curious. Anyone know how well the Pact Magic classes meld with the mythic system? Is there a particular mythic path that fits them the best that someone might suggest?

Champion, guardian, marshal, and trickers are by far the best mythic paths for an occultist. Because of their tight focus on spellcasting, archmage and heirophant do little for the occultist.

In terms of which one you should pick, that's a tough question. Pact magic is all about versatility while mythic emphasizes specialization, so ultimately you should pick whichever of those four paths bests fits your most common build plan.


Alexander Augunas wrote:

Champion, guardian, marshal, and trickers are by far the best mythic paths for an occultist. Because of their tight focus on spellcasting, archmage and heirophant do little for the occultist.

In terms of which one you should pick, that's a tough question. Pact magic is all about versatility while mythic emphasizes specialization, so ultimately you should pick whichever of those four paths bests fits your most common build plan.

Awesome. Thanks for the input. Really liking the look of the secret stretch goals!


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I know you already have the ergon & ravaged bloodlines for sorcerers, but have you considered having an atlan one as a way to introduce their heritage. Maybe even some feats to build on it (funding permitting) like you did with the demon eyes.

Speaking of which I agree with Luthorne & I’m not sure you should keep the name demon eye. I know it’s from the original book but it really gives the wrong impression of them. Especially if you are going to doing the race via racial feats. A feats name really should give a good idea of what it does & not mislead you. I really think you should be calling them either occult eye or spirit blighted eye feats & then mention that people with these afflictions are often accused of being demonic. It would help clarify the feat & the sidebar could keep the flavor.

I’m not sure I agree with the idea that people who bought the occult options pdf will feel that it’s being devalued any more than people who bought the pact magic unbound books would now that the pact magic grimoire book is being made.

Speaking as a person who has bought it I can honestly say that I would expect to see all the old stuff you have done show up in this compilation (despite the fact that I am kind of paying for it twice). It’s a much stronger selling point for your book to say it has all my old stuff & more instead of most my old stuff so you have to buy more after getting my compilation book. It’s kind of the nature of things when you use kickstarter to bring out a revised product. You can always send coupons out to people who bought the PDF to the book once the kickstarter is done. It would even help promote it.

Speaking of promoting the book, the only reason I know about the kickstarter is because I saw it on facebook. You should use the list of people who bought products from everyman games from drivethough RPG & send a notice to all of them. Paizo as well if they will let you.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I can't speak for everyone, but I would also personally be fine with having everything from my Occult Options pdf be in Pact Magic Unbound. Fewer books to flip through when checking my character options is always good...and I liked a lot of the binder secrets presented, too. Anyways, not saying you have to, and maybe some other people would be upset, I don't know, but I wouldn't be for what that's worth!

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Silver Griffin wrote:
I know you already have the ergon & ravaged bloodlines for sorcerers, but have you considered having an atlan one as a way to introduce their heritage. Maybe even some feats to build on it (funding permitting) like you did with the demon eyes.

If there's room, maybe. Sorcerers actually get a lot in the Grimoire, as the ergon and ravaged bloodlines actually don't grant the ability to bind spirits anymore; there's a new archetype for that.

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Speaking of which I agree with Luthorne & I’m not sure you should keep the name demon eye. I know it’s from the original book but it really gives the wrong impression of them. Especially if you are going to doing the race via racial feats. A feats name really should give a good idea of what it does & not mislead you. I really think you should be calling them either occult eye or spirit blighted eye feats & then mention that people with these afflictions are often accused of being demonic. It would help clarify the feat & the sidebar could keep the flavor.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this, then.

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I’m not sure I agree with the idea that people who bought the occult options pdf will feel that it’s being devalued any more than people who bought the pact magic unbound books would now that the pact magic grimoire book is being made.

I actually had people tell me that much. Ultimately, we'll see. If I have space that needs filling, I'll import more. If I don't, I probably won't.

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Speaking as a person who has bought it I can honestly say that I would expect to see all the old stuff you have done show up in this compilation (despite the fact that I am kind of paying for it twice). It’s a much stronger selling point for your book to say it has all my old stuff & more instead of most my old stuff so you have to buy more after getting my compilation book. It’s kind of the nature of things when you use kickstarter to bring out a revised product. You can always send coupons out to people who bought the PDF to the book once the kickstarter is done. It would even help promote it.

The Kickstarter doesn't advertise that, "All the old stuff I've ever done with Pact Magic," is in the compilation. It says right on the tin what you're getting: Vol 1 and Vol 2 plus 120+ pages of NEW stuff. To randomly throw in Occult Options 1 would likely upset some people, and I can understand why. It would also be false advertising. If I'm copy/pasting the material from something I did independently of Radiance House, its not exactly, "new material," Regardless, adding Occult Options isn't something that I'm willing to do unless I decide that I absolutely have to..

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Speaking of promoting the book, the only reason I know about the kickstarter is because I saw it on facebook. You should use the list of people who bought products from everyman games from drivethough RPG & send a notice to all of them. Paizo as well if they will let you.

We (Dario and I) did that. Not with Paizo, but with DriveThru. I asked informally if Paizo would promote it; I'm asking formally today. I also did an interview with Pathways Magazine that I'm hoping will help out.


Pledged. Also sent a notice to backers of LIC.

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