How do I put the fear of the almighty GM back into players?


Advice

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My players are becoming complacent and are openly boasting about how unstoppable they are. (They're level 4...)

How can I put the fear back into them?

I'd rather not just kill one of them, I need something they can survive, just barely.


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Don't.

This isn't a competition. You control the whole world; if you want to just go 'meteor falls on your town, you all die', you can. If your goal is to 'win', then there's nothing to it, because you hold all the cards.

GMing is a lot like playing a boardgame with a young child. Sure, you can wipe the floor with them effortlessly, but that's not the point.


My goal is not to win, but I want them to actually think, instead of walking headlong into every trap and fight.

I want them to consider possible alternatives to open combat with every moving thing they meet.


A nonlethal fight e.g. a tournament, where some of their opponents are just better might make the point.

A fight which they should win just barely can easily turn into a TPK with bad luck. This might make your point but would likely result in your not being the GM in the next game. With reason.

Liberty's Edge

If you honestly want to make them feel vulnerable have them encounter a leach swarm in a river bed while a shadow (or two) attacks the Los strength characters. Just keep in mind you will likely kill one of them in this situation so it's not that good of an idea. If you really want to change the Stab first ask question when we get to it attitude have then see (but not actually fight) some higher cr monsters. Don't have the monsters Attack them but do a show of power. Maybe a mass hold person from a get who then just bothers them. Make it known the fey could seriously hurt then but did not want to. Even so this may not be the best idea here.


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One thing you could do is to have an Ancient Red Dragon come flying in towards them and burn down a nearby village, they'd get a dc 27 dragon fear check and you'll have a nice plot hook for them to help the village, and eventually they might get to slay the dragon.

Ways they can help the village include treating the wounded, getting people out of wreckage, as messengers to other villages or towns, finding lost children who ran into the woods in fear ect ect.


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Have them fail at something. Put them before a choice with bad costs either way (though they don't know that). Have something big and hairy kill someone tougher than them. Imprison them for a while, then have them released. Let them get their hands on something powerful, but let them trade it away for survival. Let them find situations they would have been able to deal with if only they were a few levels higher. Have them fight something and barely win, then face them with several of those at once.

Lots of different options.


I have to second "don't just beat them up". As the GM you have absolute power, it's way too easy to win.

Now on to the real business. There's several time honored ways to break players of reckless habits, some more douchey than others. We'll stick to the nice ones.

Worf something. Set up someone as a badass. Maybe have them defeat the players easily (and nonlethal), maybe have them be a high level monster, some way to demonstrate they're stronger than the players. Then murder the everloving @#$% out of them with something bigger and badder. That way the players can see where their relative power level lies.

Use a trap way above the CR of the players to murder an NPC. Rival dungeon looter, hireling, whatever. Personally? I'd go with this one and have the NPC come after them as a flaming skeleton later. Both of these basically boil down to "murder someone other than the PCs to show how lethal something could be".

Have them fight a kobold/goblin warband loaded down with alchemist's fire/acid flasks/liquid ice. Touch attacks tend to stay relevant for a very long time against everyone but barbarians and monks. Kobolds are what, CR 1/4? 12 of them is a CR 4 fight.

Introduce later bosses, especially ones with auras. Liches and dragons have a fear aura, mummies have a paralyze aura, overwhelming presence is a great way to piss off players and monologue at the same time. For the discerning villain.


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Have you heard of Grimtooth's traps?

Or this?

https://trapaday.wordpress.com/


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i would actuly let them run a bit wild. only to have to face their actions later on. ill never forget the shock of two new female players who just slew their first goblin and found in her sack a note saying: "we lovs yu momi".
this won't work on everyone ,but there are other kinds of things they might have to face. infamy for slaying a well liked npc who they claim is a vilian is one.having droves of fans runing after them,and mimicing them - emberesing them in public is an other (think about the batman's fans in the last movie with the new joker)

Dark Archive

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Bump up the challenge a bit, but not too much. Like if they are easily beating CR 4 stuff, throw them up against some CR 5 or even 6 stuff (but only occasionally). The more players you have the easier it gets sometimes, plus you have those players that just make a damn good character, like the Falchion wielding bloodrager in my Reign of Winter game. He pretty much one shots stuff twice his level (having a loaded d20 (LOL it's not really but he had crazy luck last night) helps too)


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Play your villains competently. A tough hard fought match that ends in a win or a retreat will serve the same purpose as a loss.

Take advantage of tactics and your players will hopefully follow suit.


I'd suggest sending some kind of bounty hunter after them - someone who specializes in non-lethal weapons. Have the BH strike from the shadows, have the BH take one or more of them down, then flee (because he can't take all of them down without dying himself, or because something tougher could come for him, or because he's just showing off ... for now).

That leads to questions:
1. Why did the BH attack in the first place?
2. Who's paying the BH?

And, if your players aren't really paying attention:
3. Why the non-lethal damage?


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If you're looking for a combat opportunity, my suggestion is to actually observe and study your team. Every team has a weakness; my group's is ranged combat. When you determine that weakness, capitalize on it; it will force your players to use tactics to make up for their shortcomings.

If you want to show them that their actions have consequences, my advice is to dangle a shiny in front of them, and have their actions take it away from them. The Noble Order of So and So was about to grant a melee a magic blade, but after hearing about their heinous thoughtlessness, they revise the choice. If the Pcs try to take the sword, remember that THAT has consequences, such as the ruling lord getting up in arms, the squires of the knights go vindictive, or hell, even HEAVEN ITSELF denounces them.

Have fun with it

Liberty's Edge

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If they aren't being challenged, increase the CR of the encounters one step. have many smaller foes instead of singular large foes. You can also present them with challenges they have to figure out instead of resorting to dice


HOw many points are they built on? or did the roll for stats?

How much wealth is their gear equal to?


Their stats are rolled.

I would truly prefer this to occur outside of combat, or with as little combat as possible.


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Read this: revisiting encounter designs

I found it a few weeks ago and it really helped me with making the game a bit more realistic in terms of relative power level. I've been recommending it a lot recently. Bit of an older article, but it still applies.


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Soilent wrote:

My players are becoming complacent and are openly boasting about how unstoppable they are. (They're level 4...)

How can I put the fear back into them?

I'd rather not just kill one of them, I need something they can survive, just barely.

You need to remember a couple of things as the Game Master. First, you control the environment. They don't get to adjust their television sets, as you control the horizontal, the vertical, the colour, the tint, the brightness, etc... You control the weather in the game. You control all of the NPCs and monsters and gods, both above and below. Second is what you don't control, and that's player agency. They get to do what they wish to do and act as they wish to act, provided that it's something that their characters could do.

As the one in control of the environment, what I think would be best for you is to teach your players that actions have consequences. If the problem is that they're walking headlong into every trap, the "behind the scenes villain" that set up all these traps is going to send nastier things looking for them, likely because this villain is annoyed with the fact that the party is springing all of their carefully crafted traps. Alternatively, all of these traps (which we don't really know a lot about, truth be told) are there for a reason... If one of the "traps" of which you speak is a hobgoblin tribe's den that they charge into and slaughter everything like murderhobos... Yeah, sure, let them bask in the glory and take their share of the treasure that the hobgoblins had collected. Wonderful! Congratulations! Job well done! That is, until, the local villagers are pissed at the party because the hobgoblins were the only thing keeping the bugbears from muscling in on their territory. Now the villagers are fending off a bugbear assault, and it's up to the party to deal with that or let the villagers die. Power abhors a vacuum.

Save the Village from Bugbears!:
So... They charge in and repel the bugbear attack.

Even if the village is defended (we'll call it Wheatholme), some of the villagers probably would have died, and the villagers will be pissed at the party for bringing this ruin down upon them. The inn got torched, so the beautiful (CHA 18) barmaid that your party's wizard has been trying to bed is royally pissed because she not only lost her job, but she lost her father, the innkeeper, who took a mace to the face and died defending the village from these bugbears. The hobgoblins always left them alone before, and now there's no possible way, outside of lots of Charm spells, that the wizard is bedding her now! Of course, if the wizard uses Charm spells to do it, her best friend, the baker's wife, notices that her friend is acting very much out of character, and gossip spreads throughout Wheatholme. They pool together their meager coins and hire a band of mercenaries to drive the party out of the village for both bringing a bugbear horde down upon them, and for taking advantage of poor, innocent village girls that no decent, respectable men will want to marry now!

Adventurers vs. Adventurers:
The party is at least level 5 by now, so a level 6 or 7 party of adventurers comes to drive them away from Wheatholme, and their choices are to either go willingly, or fight their way out of it. If they go willingly, they've no longer got a base of operations, warm beds, places to spend their coin... Because Wheatholme was the only village for 30 miles, and they have no horses. It's going to be a long walk on foot, and hopefully, they've invested in Survival, or they're going to have a cold and hungry day or two, especially since it started raining and the roads have been washed out.

If, instead, they fight and kill (or even drive off) the other adventurers... Well, they were part of an adventuring Guild that the party has just made enemies out of. I'm sure that'll have some repercussions down the road.

Undefended Territory:
Additionally, what they didn't know is that the bugbears are part of a larger evil that's slowly tightening its grip upon the land. Wheatholme village that the party just defended was not even a blip on the radar for the so-called "Swamp Lord" until the bugbears crawled back to the Swamp Lord's lair to report their failure to take "undefended territory" (the territory formerly claimed by the hobgoblin tribe).

What? Undefended territory? How could they not be able to claim territory that no one else claims? A small band of human and demi-human heroes has defended the weak, pathetic future-slaves of this Wheatholme place and driven back the brutal might of the bugbears? Well, now it's time to lure the pesky heroes into the swamp and let the annis hags have at them.

Now, instead of trying to brute-force crush your players, you've provided them with adventure and a sense of consequence.

Now, Combat Monster also gave you some great advise. Play your villains competently. I don't know how many times I've talked about this in regard to aegis paladins...

Let's take the aforementioned band of bugbears...

Jumping back in time a bit.:
Bugbears are only CR 2 monsters that prefer to murder and torture above pretty much anything else. Two bugbears is a CR 4 encounter, but 3 is a CR 5 encounter (totally within reason). When faced with your Level 4 heroes, are they all going to swarm the party barbarian, who seems like he or she could mow them down like blades of grass, or are they going to send one to keep the party barbarian busy while the other two attempt to repeatedly bludgeon to death the party wizard and cleric? They may love murder, but they don't love getting murdered - after all, being dead interferes with their favourite pastimes.

Meanwhile, three other groups (of 3 bugbears each) move in on Wheatholme and cause a lot of damage to property and persons.

That's pretty basic brute-force tactic. Probably totally in keeping with bugbears. If your party defeats the bugbears, your party wizard and party cleric are probably pretty beat up, and there's no help coming from Wheatholme (because they hate you now). The bugbears might have sprung an attack upon you from the trees, flanking your characters from both sides. What? +2 bonus to attack rolls? Sure, the bugbears will take that.

This doesn't even get into more complex antics like that of Tucker's Kobolds. Ordinary kobolds are CR ¼; i.e. exceptionally easy for a level 4 character to kill. A single bugbear (because I'm on a roll) commander with 10-17 of the little bastards attacking the party from behind some boulders or in a narrow ravine is a CR 5 encounter that's sure to make the party think twice before rushing in.

Lions and Tigers and Bears! Oh my! Wait... Those aren't bears...:
Lure them into a clearing with tall grasses (think 3' to 4' high) and let them fight off a swarm of tooth fairies. Good luck holding onto your weapons, spotting the fairies in the tall grasses, avoiding their stinky fairy-dust when you kill one, or getting out without major damage when they set the dry grass on fire.

Still eager to rush in? Maybe they fall down into a sinkhole that drops them into a surfeit of now-angry skunks. The only way out is to climb out of the stinky den, or to shrink down to a small enough size to crawl out the skunks' tunnels.

I'm sure that you can come up with quite a few ideas to slow your players down and get them to think before they act.

Best wishes!


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If the players are "openly boasting" it sounds like they're having fun. If they start actually complaining that they're bored I guess that would be a sign to pump up the challenge.

Charging in headfirst is the most enjoyable style of play for a lot of folks. If their style of having fun annoys you I guess you could take some steps to make it more dangerous. Using monsters with reach (possibly via reach weapons) and Combat Reflexes should make aggressive tactics more dangerous. If the PCs like to actually use the charge action you could have enemies carrying weapons which can be braced against a charge for double damage. I'd point out that the enemies are bracing their weapons since that only seems fair (or at least offer a Perception check to notice), but whether you want to mention that they'll do double damage if they hit really seems like a matter of taste to me.

As far as not fighting everything they meet, perhaps you could have a few NPCs talk to the PCs and offer them hidden treasures, quests with rewards, etc. If the PCs are literally killing every NPC before he or she can get a word in edgewise you could try putting an NPC in a somewhat safe area like a room with a door which has only a small opening the PCs can hear the NPC through. Such bloodthirsty PCs might also be in danger of killing good, innocent, and or socially significant NPCs without bothering to listen to who they are first.


Get them invested in the setting. Show the consequences of recklessness, let them loose someone/something or make them regret a rash approach.

A little smoke and mirrors obfuscation can help here (disguised opponents, situations that look different on first site).

Let a clever villain set them up. Present challenges that can't be solved by brute force... (Diplomacy or investigation needed)

Let a good guy charge them with a perceived crime.


bookrat wrote:

Read this: revisiting encounter designs

I found it a few weeks ago and it really helped me with making the game a bit more realistic in terms of relative power level. I've been recommending it a lot recently. Bit of an older article, but it still applies.

+1. The Alexandrian blog is an excellent source overall. Read as much of it as you can...


Some advice here


Monster Codex.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Soilent wrote:

My players are becoming complacent and are openly boasting about how unstoppable they are. (They're level 4...)

How can I put the fear back into them?

I'd rather not just kill one of them, I need something they can survive, just barely.

Rethink your encounters. There's a character that many GMs don't utilize nearly enough when planning encounters.... it's called the Environment.

Download some PFS scenarios... and see how environment shapes the encounter.


here comes the player/GM arms race
which will end in tears, unless you are patient, communicative with your players and smart about your choices

generalizations are just generalizations
but often, OP, the first metaphorical kick in the teeth for new or inexperienced players tends to come in the level 6 to level 8 range

good builds and solid itemization choices can often carry the day, regardless of tactics, in the level 1 to level 4 range

Shadow Lodge

Use the system to put appropriately challenging encounters in front of your players -- they may be sitting in booster seats and not even realize it.

I'm imagining you're either runnning printed adventures or using them as a baseline for custom play.

First, figure out your group's effective APL.

1) What level are they? 4th? Let's start at 4.

2) What's their point buy? 15-pts? Move on. 20-pts, let's adjust them at APL +1. 25-pts? Let's adjust them at APL+2.

3) How many PCs? Four? Move on. Five or six? Let's adjust them at APL+1 again.

4) How their's WBL (wealth-by-level)? They should each have 6000gp of gear at this level. Have they been selling things they find at half-price? Have they been able to find every exact obscure magic item they want? If you're generous on WBL, add another APL+1 or APL+2.

5) How is your player's system mastery? Do they have the right characters for the adventures? Are they using some of the well known "exploits" on the power curve? There's another APL+1.

6) Finally, are you playing in 3.5 era adventures or Pathfinder era adventures? If it's a 3.5 era adventure, you need another APL+1 as Pathfinder characters get more feats, traits, abilities than their 3.5 contemporaries.

Guess what, we might've just determined the group isn't really running in a vanilla level 4 adventure to be challenged. Their size, wealth, point-buy and other assorted tricks means they should be playing in level 8 adventures.

Pull out an adventure appropriate for the group, and wish them well. :)

(I recommend hero points the first time you do this)

Grand Lodge

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I would second the suggestion of using the Monster Codex.

If you are running something scripted take that tired group of standard ogres and turn them into a pack of human hunting, baby jam making, elites who are aren't anything like typical ogres.

Last week I had my group in a AP fight where I made sure to note that the single target encounter had a piece of very valuable treasure strapped to his back and use of AOE attacks would severely damage it. There is nothing a party of players hates more than losing loot and used sparingly it's an effective tool to make a combat more interesting/difficult.

Are they good characters? The village is being attacked! Someone spotted a group of monsters making off with a cart FULL of loot. They can only make one encounter. Which one will it be?

Swarms.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I had a player who, regardless of the character name/build/sex, would always play the exact same character. In addition, he wasn't 'afraid'; he'd poke and prod JUST to poke and prod. I believe this particular encounter happened when the character was about 3rd level.

Back in the AD&D 2.0 days, they were traversing through the woods on to the next scene, when they heard a wild boar screaming. Of course our intrepid adventurers had to go take a look-see at what was happening, right?

what happens next, you ask?:

As flavor, I had thrown in a Wyvern who had just finished a aerial surveillance for sustenance. When the two scouts came on up, they were able to spot the wyvern sitting on the riverbank, boar on it's tail like a shish-ka-bob about 150 yards away.

Of course that player had to let loose with an arrow. Of course the die showed a natural 20. So, it did hit. And then (drum roll)- a natural 1 for damage.

His next four shots all missed as the Wyvern went to investigate who was recklessly firing at him. Just helped the Wyvern narrow his field of search until he found this female elven archer (yeah, cross-gender play) firing recklessly at something that he had NO right engaging.

Needless to say, the Wyvern didn't have just wild pig for lunch that day- he rolled single digits for the poison save, then the Wyvern really went to town.

Even after the spoiler, above, the player did not change his mode of play. Needless antagonistic attitude, he never learned to run away.

At that time, the players (on a party re-roll) came in one level lower. As the rest of the party was progressing through the levels, he kept on regressing... until finally he killed himself right out of that particular campaign.

But what are you to do, right?

-- Steve


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set them up with encounters they can't win just by charging in with a full frontal assault. make them work for their victories. if they have to stealth into an encampment taking out sentries, using charm person/dominate person or alter self and their disguise skill in fun and interesting ways then they deserve to think of themselves as awesome. If they are just min/maxed character sheets who want to hack and slash through stuff then teach them the finer nuances of role playing.

if they need ideas on this kind of thing then have then search youtube for "bardic knock spell" by spoony.

if you want them to FEAR you as a gm, then just kill one of them. but if you want them to take your encounters a little more seriously and not just steam roll through stuff, make encounters that are about more than just how hard you hit and how high your AC is.


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a few thoughts - echoing a few others.

1) if combats as currently being run as "too easy" for your party - vary them up a bit - give them a stretch without combat (exploration, role playing, something to get them engaged). If that doesn't work then look at varying the environments and at making them think a bit about their tactics and approaches. This can be as simple as an environment where there are bystanders they have to keep alive (prisoners, other people in a tavern/street - pick something appropriate to your environment but show them that there are people other than enemies and the party

2) look at what your party does (play styles, character classes/types) and consider encounters that let a different set of people than usual shine for a given battle. If the party melee types are always dominant perhaps have an encounter with some flying (or swimming) enemies - this becomes a different tactical battle - and requires ranged play or tactics such as readying actions. Don't however be punitive here - water can quickly kill unprepared lower level characters (and flying enemies if no one has ranged weapons is also frustrating at any level of play)

[side note - years ago in a different system one of my proudest moments as a DM was getting a player who played a Paladin to choose running away and perhaps needing to atone when he realized that fighting a dragon, in the dragon's lair, where the dragon was able to fly and perch on top of walls that were higher up than the paladin could easily see - but just high enough that the dragon could still breath down and get everyone in the room wasn't a battle he was going to win - and the party ran away w/o any casualties but with a lesson about perhaps not trying more than they could actually achieve at that time. The rest of that dungeon was a related set of lessons - lots of encounters where they had non-combat means of resolving them - if they spoke with the monsters instead of attacking first]

Along those lines I think it is often good to introduce "enemies" who aren't necessarily clear cut "evil" - put the PC's in the middle of two groups who are in a conflict but where there are no clear good (or bad) guys just real differences of opinion and perhaps even fighting and see what the PC's do. Give them non-combat means of resolving encounters - or real consequences if they do engage in battle (one side may start to see them as allies, the other as enemies). This can even work if some of the party are focused on fighting "evil" (i.e. Paladins etc) but in that case don't go too overboard as it might seem punitive to that player if EVERY enemy is N. But a bunch of encounters with N (or even CN) or other non-evil enemies can help teach a party to look at a multitude of ways to resolve combat.

Another similar approach is to give them enemies who use means other than lethal force to attack the party (traps are one option but a non-lethal specialist is another, or a spell caster who focuses on illusions and transmutations). Start getting them to question their reality a bit and to see an approach that is less than lethal but still effective. This has the other side benefit of letting you have an NPC who may "win" against the party without it being a TPK - and without requiring a lot of DM fiat or hand waving to avoid that TPK - knock out the whole party and get them captured etc.

One other thing to keep in mind is that SOLO monsters even at APL+4 above the party are at a real action economy disadvantage to a determined party. So add some minions or others to some encounters to help minimize that. I also find that starting encounters a bit father away often turns encounters which are "easy" into ones that take real skill and push a party - give the NPC's some time to buff and encounters get far more complex. Combine a few encounters in a row and an "easy" module turns challenging very quickly (in many dungeons pay attention to what is in nearby rooms - sounds of battle should have a chance to pull in others to the fray. I also find that in dungeons if the party keeps pressing forward that it can help to stay in initiative order (players may like this as buffs etc stick around a longer) but it also can mean that an unwary party may trigger multiple encounters at once w/o rests in-between to do out of combat healing. Don't abuse this but keep it as an option.


Good advice Rycault, I would also add the dm can be conscious of engagement ranges, and have enemies that use ranged attacks, retreat to safety and heal. If the party is strong in melee, make it hard for them to get into melee with the enemies.

Don't make everything a punishing grind, but Tucker's kobolds can ride again.


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While adventuring, at one time, have each of them make a DC24 will save. Ask those who fail (should be most of them) to check to be sure they fail. Shuffle some papers and look hard at them for about 20 seconds, maybe using a pencil to make some random marks on the paper. Then resume the game.

Dark Archive

Ask the players if they want to take on tougher challenges.

Are you making sure they go throu a whole days worth of challenges before resetting stuff like spells per day or rage rounds? For example, they might be expected to take on 4 or 5 EL 4 encounters a day. Or 2 EL 6 encounters or one EL 7 and 1 EL 4.

It is not always easy to pick the right stuff but make sure to at least sometimes employ spell casters. Not just fireball but stuff that slows them down so they take more enemy attacks before.eliminating each enemy.

Use the terrain to the villains advantage. Default encounter design expects the environment to be advantageous to the enemy. If nit, then the EL goes down by one. Or you could boost the enemy up.

If useing premade adventures, expect them to be easy. Most people ate not fans of super hard games like dark souls. Prewitten adventures are made to be easy enough for even brand new players with a 15 point buy and little to no knowledge of the game and meta game to be able to triumph.

Silver Crusade

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A few things:

* Possibly decide you are OK with PCs behaving in an over confident, moronic-way, since the players are having fun, and roll with it. It's OK for players to enjoy playing overconfident morons, and you don't necessarily need to take them down a notch. There are old warriors and there are bold warriors, but there are no old bold warriors. Perhaps your players prefer to play bold, dull-witted, tactically inept, glory-hound fools like Achilles, rather than tactical genius wise-guy warriors like Odysseus who live to a ripe old age. While I personally find moronic charge-and-kill-everything behavior deeply reprehensible, so long as everyone present is having fun with it then it's all good. Guys like Odysseus use guys like Achilles as disposable 'shock troops', but are careful never to let the stupid guys figure out what's going on. Perhaps even talk with them, and find out what sort of game they want.

* It may be that your players have discerned that you are not willing to kill their PCs. For some people, knowing their PC can't die is like being in 'god mode' in a video game. Once they know this, the only way to overcome this is to again make death an option. I've seen players figure out that the GM is a wuss who won't kill their character, then exploit that knowledge to deliberately 'get away with' stupid whacky stuff that should get the character killed. Should you decide to add death as an option you must warn them. Something like, "Hey guys, I kept the kid gloves on while your PCs were just starting out. Now you've become fairly capable and powerful, so I'm taking off the kid gloves. Think through the consequences of your actions, because permanent character death is now an option."

* I've found that a great way to deliver this message, should you decide to do so, is to put in a 'trap for stupid'. Put in a situation that's only dangerous to someone who acts like a complete moron. If the PCs handle it with the barest modicum of intelligence all is fine. But IF they take the bait and act in an utterly reckless and moronic fashion, let the dice fall where they may, in which case new character generation is probably in order.

Soilent wrote:
I'd rather not just kill one of them, I need something they can survive, just barely.

Here's what you have to do if you are sure you want to change the current dynamic:

* Set up a situation where, if they behave like utter morons, they will die. Make this utterly clear, warn them that stupid behavior will likely be fatal, and be ready to kill PCs if they call your bluff, because you're not bluffing. Be very clear about this, and explain to them that not every encounter will be 'level appropriate' and not every encounter is a fight they can win.

* Specifically, present them with a situation where they know, for sure, that a frontal assault will definitely be fatal. Tell them that their PCs are certain they can not defeat this foe in a fair fight.

* Provide some fairly easy way to avoid the fight, or to gain some advantage that makes it an easy win. So long as they avoid the stupid approach, all will be fine. e.g. Put in a stupid, hungry, extremely dangerous monster that just wants food not a fight; if they fight, they die; there's a source of meat handy, and all they must do to avoid trouble is toss the monster an easier meal. If this is too much for them, and they insist on doing the stupid thing, you need to decide in advance what you will do.

* If they even attempt to use good tactics or do anything half way clever, even if they suck at it, make that good enough to save the day. The first time.

* As Baconwing suggested, above, have foes sometimes use intelligent tactics. Really, intelligent tactics are worth a lot more than brute numbers. Just ask Tuckers Kobolds. It's semi-suicidal to rush multiple foes with readied reach weapons, but lots of PCs will do it anyway. E.g. PC Barbarian says, "It's only six goblins in the room! I don't care about their stupid spears, or that they won initiative, I charge!" PC barbarian charges. Each of the 6 goblins takes its 'readied action to attack the first foe to come in reach', then each of the 6 takes it's AoO, all of which are trip attempts. Twelve attacks later, with penalties to both AC and CMD, it's quite likely the Barbarian took damage, is prone, and was unable to attack. Then all six goblins Full Attack the prone Barbarian (who is now -6 to AC). Since they're only goblins, the other PCs will save the day. Next week, though, when the Bugbears or Hill Giants with longspears do the same thing, perhaps the Barbarian will be a bit less reckless.


Why dont you talk to the players about what kind of game you want to play and what yours and their expectations are. Then see if maybe you want to take the game in a different direction, and possibly alter characters a bit. Rather then trying to 'teach them a lesson' why not have a conversation with them. You know, as if you were playing some sort of game, with your friends, for your mutual enjoyment.


Or how about having a powerful entity take note of their boasts and decide to have some fun at their expense. The sort of thing that will actually revive them in a strange alien place even if they die just to mock them, or lure them into a trap dungeon with a fake lead or a downright lyong quest giver agent. Better yet, send them on quests that, while looking on at first sight, progressively screw the world over as they complete further parts.
Nothing like having them feel like they're great heroes saving the world from ever greater dangers, just to learn at some point that THEY themselves were what caused those dangers.
Go and have them slay a witch that was scaring everyone off..because she was guarding a big demon from escaping his volatile prison (which they shouldn't lear about before it's too late)? "You didn'd save us, you doomed us!"


StDrake wrote:
Or how about having a powerful entity take note of their boasts and decide to have some fun at their expense. The sort of thing that will actually revive them in a strange alien place even if they die just to mock them.

nope, can't revive someone who doesn't want to return.


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Have them fight something that uses a mind control ability that turns the party against itself, like an aboleth, while the actual monster remains out of sight. Instead of just killing their fellow party member, it will force them to try to figure out what is causing the mind control from afar. Nothing helps players go back to strategy instead of brute force like fighting an intelligent enemy with powerful spell like abilities that remains out of sight.

Sovereign Court

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Attack the loot. It always works.


Have an ebil mage swoop in on them and subdue them with overpowered spells and the merciful metamagic feat. After they are subdued, they awaken to find that the mage was indeed impressed with their skillz, and has decided to lay a geas on each of them. Make them serve the wizard, as per the spell - now they must either find some way to break the geas (ahhh... no, not while they're level 4) or complete said task - and then deal with the consequences. Infamy, financial ruin, criminal pursuit - whatever the repercussions, now you can choose to send non-lethal threats (grapple-intensive rogues with sap specs, aka bounty-hunters) to strip a party member or two of some OP gear/imprison them.

...or maybe you feel you've already succeeded in humbling them without humiliating them. Directly humiliating the players is a poor plan - It may come off as just desserts to you, but to them, you might as well shout "I'm SO POWERFUL! I GM own you!" while wearing a shirt branded "respect mah authoritah!" Also, agreed with everyone who said to avoid launching horrible Bossmobs at the party until someone dies.


Rust lords, maybe 2 of them. So hungry.


The best solution to problems like this that involve people is to talk about it. Once you are past middle school, dealing with anything passive-aggressively isn't going to help anyone.

I remember one campaign where our GM basically said to us,(paraphrasing) "hey, the loot is out of control and we should expect a big adjustment". For a while we went along and finally it happened, and it led to one of the most memorable events in our 15 years of gaming together. The campaign itself was likely a whole lot better for it too.

Long live the Shivering Wagon Draggers!


Ramp up the difficulty. Kill a player. Make it good and meaningful. Should they be foolish enough to think you, as the DM, cannot kill them at any time, they will learn better. If they do not correct, then that's on them.

Or, you could meet the player's expectations and just make all of the encounters straight up fights. Sometimes you have to compromise the kind of game you want to run with your group.

Grand Lodge

I don't think you need to kill a character to ramp up the difficultly and make it clear that they can't take all comers.

What I would do is set up an encounter with:
1) Some open-ended reason to stay around as long as possible. Say a stalactite at the bottom of a dungeon that drips magic reagents every round (possibly only during a lunar conjunction.)
2) A clear way to escape/for the party to say uncle.
3) A lot of moderately challenging encounters that you trickle in with basically no reset between them. If four ogres are a level appropriate challenge, add another ever 2-3 rounds (or mix it up with different ogres, or escalate with class level ogres later on.)
4) Just keep turning up the heat, until they know they're depleted. Maybe give them a round or three of rest and looting here or there. But just keep pounding them until they say uncle and decide to bail.

It's pretty easy to avoid killing a character before they decide to bail. They'll feel a sense of accomplishment (remember that time we killed like 60 Ogres?,) while having a better sense of their limitations (and that there *are* limitations.)

You'll get a better sense of how hard you can push before they squirm or start to get worried. Especially if you find out that they can handle basically an infinite chain of what you thought was a balanced encounter and don't break a sweat until APL+5.


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Bah, I'm an old-school grognard GM. I've actually run through (and died in) as well as GMed the old S1: Tomb of Horrors.

I don't believe in "winning" against PCs. That's obviously nonsense. But I do believe in setting up good challenges, some more deadly than others, some less deadly, and then letting the players figure out how to survive and, if the players fail, their PCs might die.

Them's the breaks.

Adventuring is dangerous.

No adventurer should ever feel invincible, nor should any player feel that his adventurer PC is invincible.

Which doesn't mean I try to make them feel weak or vulnerable or inferior to the challenge. Quite the opposite, since I always set up challenges they can beat. I just make sure they know that if they aren't careful, then PC fatalities can and occasionally will.

It keeps them on their toes.

No player has ever complained except when I do it too often; sometimes they feel like they want an easy fight or two to show off how cool they are and make them feel like superheores. I sometimes forget to give them these encounters, but I try to sprinkle them in from time to time.


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I remember my party had a tough battle against a manticore...

Hmm. Try putting them up agaisnts monsters with spell resistance and other tricky stuff like that. Make them use their imaginations! Or at least their brains.


Better question: Why should the players fear the almighty GM?


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Kudaku wrote:
Better question: Why should the players fear the almighty GM?

Winning when you could have lost is exciting, winning when you should have lost is exhilarating. A GM is shortchanging their players if the GM denies the players the pleasure of having their characters overcome real challenges.


Yes, exactly, it is your job as a dm to challenge them, to push them, to make it difficult (but also to not make it ultra hard all the time - that is too tiring). Throw in good times and challenge. If they die, make it memorable.

One that I remember, where the player was laughing at how easy it all was, involved breaking into a pyramid. One of the many small paizo adventures, very good. Anyway, they had pushed in deep, and there was a puzzle and a summoning circle on a walkway with pits on either side. A player had a cleric-fighter and they were rocking it all quite well. Easily dispatching enemies, dominating, laughing at the danger like they just don't care.

Monsters kept coming through the summoning circle, and this was preventing them getting through. The party couldn't work out the control panel puzzle and had opted to destroy it to see if that would work. No luck. Monsters continued to come through (as per the rules) and the cleric cleared them out. Each time it was a random roll for what was summoned. The cleric got to work trying to "break" the summon circle itself to end the spell, and another party member was down the pit, fighting mortal kombat style against one of the beasties.

The cleric had no respect for the danger they were in, and let their hp drop a bit too low without using their healing. They didn't think anything could harm them, not really. Well, a very large and dangerous constrictor snake was rolled, and came through; thus entered the real challenge. It grappled the cocky adventurer and started to break him. Not much he could do with his greataxe while pinned. The other char tried to save him, but was too late. The previously overconfident adventurer so powerful and potent, was truly helpless and at the mercy of the snake. He was crushed and broken completely, going straight to -20 and still going.

Then it started to eat him, and the other player had to kill the snake and pull his corpse out.

The player's next char was not so over-confident.

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