Wisdom to hit or damage.


Advice


Currently in one of my games i'm playing a monk. I was looking for any way to get wisdom to hit or damage without houseruling. equipment or feats preferred.


Guided Hand is Wis-to-Hit. Mythic Guided Hand is Wis-to-damage. Doesn't work for a straight Monk though.

A couple Monk archetypes can get Wis to hit. Sensei and Zen Archer.


Followers of Erastil can get it for bows with deific obedience.


Well there is the Guided weapon enchantment but that is not from PF that is a 3.5


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Yeah Guided Hand enhancement is from 3.5 days of Paizo. Many GMs wouldn't allow it.


I dont see why its all the power, when Agile lets you use Dex to Damage and to Hit

Scarab Sages

Faceless Soul wrote:
I dont see why its all the power, when Agile lets you use Dex to Damage and to Hit

Agile is only Dex to damage, you need weapon finesse for dex to hit.

Guided enchantment allows both wis to hit and damage with no feat.


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Faceless Soul wrote:
I dont see why its all the power, when Agile lets you use Dex to Damage and to Hit

Because Dex doesn't let you go as SAD as Wis can.

There aren't many classes that are ultimately reliant on nothing but Dex, and those that are tend to be... well, bad.

On the flip side, what's a Cleric in heavy armor need anything but Con and Wis for? Well... a lot, if he wants to hit anything and hurt what he hits. Which Guided Hand makes a non-issue. Suddenly the Cleric gets what the Oracle is often complained about for; being able to apply Wis to basically everything it does.

The Monk is in a similar boat; that one enhancement alone cuts it down from needing four stats to two. Note that Weapon Finesse + Agile only cuts it from four to three.


kestral287 wrote:
The Monk is in a similar boat; that one enhancement alone cuts it down from needing four stats to two. Note that Weapon Finesse + Agile only cuts it from four to three.

Given that most classes are two-stat dependent (even many that we usually think of as SAD) it could be argued that giving monks wis-to-hit would not indeed be a bad thing at all as one of the biggest problems monks have is how MAD they are. The Guided weapon property can then apply to damage only the way that Agile does for dexterity.

I've done some extensive play-testing on this (and other changes) for the monk here if anyone is interested. It turns the monk from a weak class to a decent combatant on the same playing field as the other combat-classes, but it doesn't make the monk over-powered by any stretch.


*Shrug* Whether or not you think it's overpowered is honestly irrelevant to my point. My point was that Wis-to-hit/damage is inherently stronger than Dex-to-hit/damage.

And with the Monk, I was counting Str/Dex/Con/Wis going down to Con/Wis (though you don't want to tank Dex, at the point that you have one stat operating your hit bonuses alongside your AC, you should probably really stop caring about initiative all that much). The SAD classes are pretty much in the same boat insofar as nobody wants to tank Con or Dex but the Wizard doesn't really need a lot of either one. The typical MAD class needs three stats. Magus, for example, needs Str or Dex, Con, Int. Bloodrager needs Str, Con, Cha. Etc, etc.

So. Dex-to-damage cuts the Monk out of needing four stats to three, which is where most MAD classes sit. Wis-to-damage cuts the Monk from four stats to two, which is where most SAD classes are. Thus one is clearly stronger than the other.

Sovereign Court

Dabbler wrote:
I've done some extensive play-testing on this (and other changes) for the monk here if anyone is interested. It turns the monk from a weak class to a decent combatant on the same playing field as the other combat-classes, but it doesn't make the monk over-powered by any stretch.

As long as you go Quiggong - monks are pretty solid past the first couple levels with Agile alone. Their damage isn't as high as a two-handed fighter (though nothing to sniff at - and they're more versitile), but their defenses can be out the wazoo. Starting at middling levels - the only class with defenses in the same ballpark is a wildshaped druid once they can afford the Wild enchantment for armor & shield. And they have crappy reflex saves.


kestral287 wrote:
*Shrug* Whether or not you think it's overpowered is honestly irrelevant to my point. My point was that Wis-to-hit/damage is inherently stronger than Dex-to-hit/damage.

I am unconvinced.

kestral287 wrote:

And with the Monk, I was counting Str/Dex/Con/Wis going down to Con/Wis (though you don't want to tank Dex, at the point that you have one stat operating your hit bonuses alongside your AC, you should probably really stop caring about initiative all that much). The SAD classes are pretty much in the same boat insofar as nobody wants to tank Con or Dex but the Wizard doesn't really need a lot of either one. The typical MAD class needs three stats. Magus, for example, needs Str or Dex, Con, Int. Bloodrager needs Str, Con, Cha. Etc, etc.

So. Dex-to-damage cuts the Monk out of needing four stats to three, which is where most MAD classes sit. Wis-to-damage cuts the Monk from four stats to two, which is where most SAD classes are. Thus one is clearly stronger than the other.

I would disagree that MAD classes need three stats, most have additional abilities that cut their need to two. They don't want to dump-stat other stats, but they don't need high scores either. For example, the paladin is MAD but he needs only Strength and Charisma - Dex he doesn't need, he can wear heavy armour; Con he shouldn't dump, but because he can self-heal he doesn't need to push it either, it's gravy. Same with the magus - he needs his hitting stat and Int, but he can buff for the rest if he wants it.

The monk cannot skimp on Dex, he needs that for AC because he can't wear armour, and he needs Con because he's on d8 hit dice. I agree though, Wis-to-damage as well as Wis-to-hit is something I wouldn't (and do not) give the monk, except under the same ladder as Dex-to-damage is available: as an item property, and that item isn't available at low level. The reason I think the monk needs this change to get Wis-to-hit is because while Dex-to-hit is available, it's a feat tax just to cut MAD to a level equal to that of other classes that do not have to pay the feat tax.

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
As long as you go Quiggong - monks are pretty solid past the first couple levels with Agile alone. Their damage isn't as high as a two-handed fighter (though nothing to sniff at - and they're more versitile), but their defenses can be out the wazoo. Starting at middling levels - the only class with defenses in the same ballpark is a wildshaped druid once they can afford the Wild enchantment for armor & shield. And they have crappy reflex saves.

The problem with the Agile route is two-fold:

1) You are relying on an item which is pretty limited in the first place to provide it.
2) You are paying a feat-tax just to keep up.

The monk can get good defences, but paladins get better ones, and defences do not win fights - in fact the best defence is good offence, most of the time. I've been involved in dozens of number-crunching monk threads, and there is no getting around the fact that monks are the weakest combat class in actual combat. Sure they have good defences, but not great hit points. They have a lot of attacks, but not very effective ones. They are OK against moderate or weak foes, but tank in boss-fights unless they can get maneuvers involved (and if you are a dex monk, that's another feat-tax to pay) which isn't all that often.

Sovereign Court

Dabbler wrote:
The monk can get good defences, but paladins get better ones, and defences do not win fights - in fact the best defence is good offence, most of the time.

Meh - the whole 'best defense is a good offense' thing is something I generally disagree with. You only need to kill things fast to protect your group's glass cannons if people in your group insist on being dumb and making glass cannons. Every class can have decent defenses.

And at middling-high levels, a monk's AC is FAR higher than a paladin's. Their saves are generally in the same ballpark (though most monks I make are dwarves - so that generally puts me a bit above most palis vs spells since dwarves make bad palis - especially with Steel Soul).

And again - I'm not saying that a monk's offense is as high as other martials. (Though Pummeling Style has shrunk the difference considerably, especially once a monk picks up Improved Critical at 10.)


Wow thanks guys i really like the option presented so far. Although is there anyway to get channel energy as an SLA without dipping into another class.

Scarab Sages

no, channel is pretty restricted. The classes that get it are:

Cleric
Warpriest
Paladin/Antipaladin
Druid (or inquisitor) with the Aquatic, Arctic, or Swamp domains.
Necromancer Wizard
Life or Bones Oracle
Empyreal Sorcerer
Hex Channeler witch
Witch Doctor Shaman
Adept (or any other divine class with a familiar) with Adept Channel feat.


Aasimar can pick it up; it's an option on the Variant Aasimar Abilities table.

Every other method is by class to my knowledge though. There might be a feat, but I doubt it.

Sczarni

Life spirit shaman also gets it at lvl 1.

Scarab Sages

kestral287 wrote:

Aasimar can pick it up; it's an option on the Variant Aasimar Abilities table.

If you roll a 01 on on a %die then yes, its possible. If your GM allows that garbage in the first place.


Imbicatus wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

Aasimar can pick it up; it's an option on the Variant Aasimar Abilities table.

If you roll a 01 on on a %die then yes, its possible. If your GM allows that garbage in the first place.

*Shrug* As a GM I'd allow it. You want to swap out your SLA for Channel Energy 1D6 1/day, what do I care? Is 3.5 more HP for the party really going to break anything?

Scarab Sages

kestral287 wrote:
Is 3.5 more HP for the party really going to break anything?

No, but DR 2, an extra +2 to an ability score, or at will flight at first level might.


Which are very much different abilities.

*Shrug* Though I've rocked a Tiefling caster packing the +2 Int off their table and it hasn't broken anything yet.

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