Viability of White-Haired Witch as Grappler more than Caster given low BAB?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


I've been looking at the white-haired witch, and it's got some pretty spiffy grappling abilities, which considering it gives up hexes, it better darn well be spiffy!

But the thing is, even with using INT for grapples, given the awful BAB of a witch, is it really an option at higher levels? I mean, at low levels you're only a point behind, but by level 10 that's a huge disparity from another grapple-focused character, such as brawler, monk, fighter, or barbarian...

My wife -might- join a game I'm in where we're 10th level, and I thought this would be a fun archetype for her to play, but if it's main draw is pretty much obsolete by the level we're at...well... :-/

I'm not terribly familiar with the witch's spell list, but it doesn't seem heavy with self-buffs to compensate for the low BAB (more of a control/debuff list from my previous experience). Am I wrong?

I dunno, does a grapple-focused white-haired witch seem like a good idea, mechanically speaking? I already see it is cool thematically, and this is really just brainstorming at this point.


If you do some searches you'll find a few threads on this archetype. The consensus is they did it wrong, and it isn't very good.

Actually the consensus pretty much is you get a better "Medusa" by going regular witch or hex magus and just taking the prehensile hair hex.

In addition to the issue you noted with the BAB, you need some kind of gimmick to pull off combat maneuvers as you level up. Something like the tetori monk (think that is the one), Lore warden fighter, or especially a barbarian who takes strength surge to pull off.

A magus can actually use true strike to pull off disarm and trip maneuvers using true strike (grapple takes two checks I believe), but witches don't seem to have a way to get that one without using the samsaran past life thing or something similar.

I might add that according to RAW, there really isn't any mention that the White Haired Witch can use her hair as a third arm (the wording on the hair is different from the hex). Maybe an oversight, but who can tell?

Also with the way things you fight get big really fast as you level, the only thing you are going to use that hair on at higher levels is the odd arcane caster you encounter.

Plus what the heck are you supposed to do with Rogue talents with this kind of character anyway?

It's been a few years and absolutely no sign this archetype is ever going to be looked at by Paizo (like a lot of others).

may advice is houseule the crap out of it if you aren't playing PFS, and she wants to play one.


Well, once you get to level 6 spells, and transformation, you can go into grapplermonster mode...

Not really worth it tho. But it works as a dip for some builds.


Wasn't aware transformation was on the witch list. That's a plus, I suppose. There aren't any other, lower level buffs to supplement them?

How does tetori make it more viable? I had a player run a tetori/whw at low levels and she was a grapple beast, but I don't see how this would run into higher levels.

The appeal I found for the grappling was the grab ability and especially the extended reach. The hex magus and regular witch don't seem to get those, IIRC.

Nah, she's not particularly interested - I'm just considering unusual ideas, and as I said this is a brainstorming session. Sadly, it appears you're confirming my suspicions about it, though. :-/


Well, you could use it to enter EK. Usually, witches make bad EKs because it doesn't advance your hex, but you are giving up your Hex anyway. So you could use that to your advantage. Grab 1 level of inspired swash and you are golden-ish. Could try even a high dex AoO build, since you do get reach out the wazoo.

With the new archetypes/powers for familiars, you could make a nice combat duo as well I guess. Haven't investigated which choice would be the best tho.


The issue I run into most with the WHW is people forgetting that it takes a standard action to maintain a grapple each round and the hair doesn't grant one. So, if you grab someone on your turn (with the hair), they'll be grappled on their turn, and then on your next turn you have to decide what's worth your standard action.

With some monk thrown in you can grapple one or two targets with your arms and a second with your hair, but you're going to be letting some target(s) go on your next turn. Greater Grapple will let you maintain two.


Transformation is definitely on the Witch spell list. If you're 10th level right now it would only be a 1 level wait to pick it up. If your wife wouldn't mind playing an orc she could potentially play a Scarred Witch Doctor with the Prehensile Hair hex and attack people with her Constitution instead. My girlfriend has a PC like that with 2 levels of Barbarian and the Raging Vitality feat, and her hair is starting to get pretty useful.

It is easy to pick up the Constrict ability via a Belt of Anaconda's Coils. The Belt also gives you a +2 bonus on Grapple checks. It might be kind of a DM call whether the Constrict ability from the belt would let you qualify for the Final Embrace feat. If so then you could also gain the Grab ability, which gives you a big +4 boost on Grapple checks.

PRD wrote:


Final Embrace (Combat)
Your coils are particularly deadly, allowing you to constrict opponents of your size or smaller.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Int 3; naga, serpentfolk, or creature that has the constrict special attack; base attack bonus +3.
Benefit: You gain the constrict and grab special attacks. Your constrict attack deals damage equal to your unarmed strike or primary natural weapon melee attack. Further, you can grab and constrict opponents up to your size.
Normal: You can grab and constrict creatures one size smaller than you.

I think that having the constrict special attack makes you a "creature that has the constrict special attack". That said, the feat is kind of weird since it grants one of its own prereqs and includes some information about Grab which isn't accurate since there's a FAQ which allows you to Grab creatures of up to your own size with Grab unless otherwise specified (as per Bestiary 2)

I think the Scarred Witch Doctor is better for hair grappling not only because you can consolidate into Con and boost that with Rage but because hexes such as Evil Eye can debuff your foes in ways which make them susceptible to your attacks. A -4 to AC is a -4 to CMD, for instance. Barring some crazy ninja trick exploit I haven't thought of I'd say that hexes seem better than the stuff the White Haired Witch gets.


WHWitch can already constrict as a swift, so she doesn't even need to pick up the item. The feat would then let the constrict be a free action though, which is pretty nice.


That's true though it seems like WHW still kind of sucks. With the BAB +6 requirement for Greater Grapple and Body Shield a single class Witch has a tough path towards grapple dominance.

I was a big fan of Bride With White Hair when I saw it years ago, and I wish the news on White Haired Witch was better. It just doesn't seem that great though.


If you are going for Greater Grapple, I think you shouldn't be going straight WHW.

WHW's power lies in having a free long reach grab attack. With Enlarge person+Combat Reflexes, you can more or less stop anyone from going anywhere inside your field; which is going to be quite huge. Then, because of constrict you can apply your damage to them again, then on your turn you can just release them, move around and cast a spell.

If you wanted to, you could multi-class a bit, either Sohei 1 grabs you a multitude of feats, or Eldritch Guardian can boost your familiar (and boost it even more with sohei) and both enable you to get into EK for more BAB. It tanks your caster level a bit, but you wanted to get into grappling so you kinda brought this upon yourself.


Yeah, but any detour from White Haired Witch levels reduces the reach with your hair. Obviously growing gives you a little more, but the detour is counterproductive from that standpoint.

I might add that you start out with more reach taking prehensile hair as a hex, than if you start with White Haired Witch.

I wonder if you could come up with a custom magic item. Hair Extensions?

Hmmmm.

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