You Are Not Your Gear - Automatic Character Bonuses


Homebrew and House Rules

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

@StabbittyDoom - Wait, 5 AC behind how? I'm seeing +5 from magic armor, +5 from natural armor, +5 from deflection, +5 to regular AC with a magic shield. What am I missing? Also, I forgot about deflection applying to CMD; man, deflection bonuses are awesome!

As for magic weapons and DR... hm, I'll have to consider that. Instantly bypassing DR at certain levels does seem kinda silly, but that's actually how the regular game works, except that most of my characters have a +5 weapon by level 15, not 17. It does make Penetrating Strike almost completely useless, but I like the amount of extra work it saves, trying to track who can penetrate what. Plus, it prevents martial characters from having to buy a Swiss Army Polearm just to deal with all the different kinds of DR out there. Still, your idea of keeping it on the weapon-enhancing spells/class abilities has merit. I knew I was making Arcane Pool and Divine Bond(weapon) almost completely useless, and I was trying to figure out a way to keep them relevant. Maybe I'll use your idea!

As for Mage Armor... I personally don't have a problem with it becoming completely useless at level 8. Armorless characters generally have other ways of getting their AC up (or just avoid getting attacked in the first place), and it's not the only 1st-level spell to be awesome in early levels and useless by mid levels (I'm looking at you, Color Spray and Sleep). I figure keeping Shield relevant is a nice compromise for the major casters.

P.S. This is completely off-topic, but the rest of my post is, so...
Having weapons taken away? What, like in the casinos? That's what Sneak is for; 50 Sneak lets you keep some of the bigger stuff. Plus, there are a few awesome smaller weapons out there (even Maria is good for most of the game). Or are you talking about Dead Money? I personally loved that DLC, but I can see why some people hate it; it's not for everyone. (Though I did get a mod to get rid of those godawful invulnerable radios; that was a terrible design choice.)

Liberty's Edge

Ah, my brain reduced the armor portion to +10 instead of +15. +15 AC without shield, +20 with one, brings it up to the same total as a normal character. I think it's easier to say +10 armor, +5 deflection (applies to all, as normal), +5 to shield (but must be using a real shield, not a spell or other shield bonus source; ring of force shield works, though). Same totals, but doesn't require redefining any bonuses.

Yeah, DR becomes a (very slightly) bigger problem, but honestly most of the time DR slightly outpaces your weapons anyway and I usually see my players just powering through it the hard way. DR/magic is the only one for which encounters are designed with the assumption you will bypass it, and that one can be gained with a +1 or higher equivalent. Got a flaming sword? Good enough!

I don't like spells becoming fully useless. Even color spray and sleep remain good for putting young whippersnappers in their place. It's not a point worth discussing too much, though, since casters don't really rely on their AC as a prime defense anyway.

Btw, how do you intend to handle Cohorts, Animal Companions, and Famliars? I'm looking at Cohorts getting 3/4 of their level for these purposes, and the other two can be given your bonuses (on a 2-to-1 ratio, so you give up a +1 for them to get a +2; capped at them reaching your normal maximum). Cohorts get less because they're supposed to have heroic NPC wealth, not PC wealth.

PS: No, I mean when you run into some of the non-casino factions, like the brotherhood of steel. You get no choice for sneak (or at least, I didn't, and I had lots of skills). You either get "give me all your stuff" or "die". And there's no negotiating that I could see when you say "no", they just start shooting. I know I had sneak to 50+ because I remember sneaking stuff into the casinos. In one case they even ask you to hand over your only leverage (the chip) while surrounded by their goons! Not exactly a good deal. So I killed 'em all. How's that for leverage, salad man!


Looks pretty good. I did something similar but much simpler.
I did away with attribute bonus items and just give a bonus attribute point every even level.
No cloaks of resistance but a Veteran bonus to all saves starting at +1 at level 6 and +1 for every additional 3 levels +5 at 18th.

Liberty's Edge

Larkspire wrote:

Looks pretty good. I did something similar but much simpler.

I did away with attribute bonus items and just give a bonus attribute point every even level.
No cloaks of resistance but a Veteran bonus to all saves starting at +1 at level 6 and +1 for every additional 3 levels +5 at 18th.

That ability score bonus change is a massive nerf to everything not a caster, by the way. Casters end up with about the same (+10 to core stat instead of +11 over 20 levels), but martials end up screwed since they really need multiple stats and can normally buy +6 on each of 2-3 stats they need, meaning they drop from a total increase of 20+ to a total increase of 10.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Okay, redid the wording on how the Armor and Deflection bonuses work, and added some notes on how Familiars/Animal Companions/Eidolons/Cohorts might work. The redid parts are below.

Heroic Armor (Ex): Starting at 5th level, armor bonus to AC equal to +1, approx. +2/3 level after 5, to a maximum of +10 at level 19. (See the below table for a breakdown of how it works.) This does stack with the nonmagical armor bonus from armor, but not with Mage Armor, nor with any enhancement bonus to armor. A character using a shield in one hand (but not shields that are not carried in hand, such as the Shield spell) gets an additional bonus to AC equal to 1/2 of this bonus, rounded down, as a shield bonus that stacks with nonmagical shields. (So an extra +1 at 5th level, then +1/3 levels after that, to a max of an extra +5 at level 17.)
Heroic Deflection (Ex): Starting at 6th level, deflection bonus to AC (and therefore also touch AC and CMD) equal to +1, +1/3 level after 6, to a max of +5 at level 18.

So the table has now been changed as follows.
The terms used:
Saves: Saving throws.
Armor: Armor bonus to AC.
Def: Deflection bonus to AC.
Weapons: Bonus to all weapon attacks.
Abi: Ability scores. A () shows the +1 bonuses gained at high levels.
1: None
2: None
3: +1 Saves
4: Abi: +1
5: +1 Armor, +1 Weapons
6: +1 Def, +2 Saves, Abi: +2
7: +2 Armor
8: +3 Armor, +2 Weapons, Abi: +3/+1
9: +2 Def, +3 Saves
10: +4 Armor, Abi: +4/+2
11: +5 Armor, +3 Weapons
12: +3 Def, +4 Saves, Abi: +5/+3/+1
13: +6 Armor
14: +7 Armor, +4 Weapons, Abi: +6/+4/+2/+1
15: +4 Def, +5 Saves, Abi: +6/+4/+3/+2
16: +8 Armor, Abi: +6/+5/+4/+3 (+1)
17: +9 Armor, +5 Weapons, Abi: +7/+6/+5/+4 (+1)
18: +5 Def, Abi: +8/+7/+6/+5 (+1)
19: +10 Armor, Abi: +8/+8/+7/+6 (+1)
20: Abi: +9/+8/+7/+6 (+1)

Questions
-How does this apply to familiars/cohorts/animal companions/eidolons? I'm not sure, but here are some quick guidelines (these will almost certainly need refining and polishing):

Cohorts have bonuses as a PC of a level equal to 2/3rds of its own level. (Since it's an NPC, not a PC, it's a few levels behind on the gear. Also, it uses 2/3rds of its level, not the Leadership character's level.)

Familiars and Animal Companions gain the Weapons bonuses, but not the AC, Saves, or Ability Score bonuses.

Summoners may choose how to split the bonuses between themselves and their eidolon. If they have multiple eidolons, and bonuses the summoner gives up applies to all of their eidolons. If the summoner is a Synthesist: While fused with their eidolon, the summoner loses the Ability Score bonuses and the Armor bonus to AC (but not the Deflection bonus).

EDIT: Reworded part of the Cohort description.


If I implement this what I plan to do is the following:

Cohorts gain the bonus as though they were NPC. The reason is: cohorts normally get their gear from the character with the leadership feat per the leadership feat rules. Since that wealth is being removed it seems fair to grant them the same bonuses.

Animal companions also gain the boneses as though they were NPCs. This may end up being a boost to animal companions, but again since the wealth is being removed it should balance.

I do not use summoners so I cannot comment.

NPC rules A NPC who would normally have big six gear gains bones as the above chart using its CR in place of its character level. IE a Human warrior 5 (CR3) only gains a +1 to saves. This balances to the -60 wealth he will generate for normally having a cloak of resistance +1. Alternately, a troll fighter 5 (CR9) gains +2 def. +3 saves, +3 armor, +2 weapons, +3/+1 ability

NPCs who do not normally have big six gear use the default rules.


JJ Jordan wrote:
Mythic Evil Lincoln had a great post on this a while back.

The Anti-christmas Tree Effect. (Bear in mind the first post is NOT the final version, it develops quite a bit)

It covers the same ground as we've done here: people agree on the premise and differ wildly on the specific rates of increase.

What's important is to pick what sounds right based on your actual play experience with your group, since anything else will introduce false discrepancies.

Another nice trick was to include the bonuses on the statblock as a simple list in the order that they increase, and have an increase at each level. That way nobody needs to look up the table. That's how I did it.

Good luck with it, and keep up the strong efforts!


StabbittyDoom wrote:
Larkspire wrote:

Looks pretty good. I did something similar but much simpler.

I did away with attribute bonus items and just give a bonus attribute point every even level.
No cloaks of resistance but a Veteran bonus to all saves starting at +1 at level 6 and +1 for every additional 3 levels +5 at 18th.
That ability score bonus change is a massive nerf to everything not a caster, by the way. Casters end up with about the same (+10 to core stat instead of +11 over 20 levels), but martials end up screwed since they really need multiple stats and can normally buy +6 on each of 2-3 stats they need, meaning they drop from a total increase of 20+ to a total increase of 10.

It may seem that way but those are only a couple of rules out of a larger houserule set. Oddly enough,players tend to spread their bonus points around...even the wizards.

The environment I play in is almost as different as Kirthfinder and a lot of concessions are made for martials.
Viewed in isolation I suppose your right,but not every body really needs +6 to 3 attributes, you have to be playing in the type of environment that demands it;namely the type of environment where everybody else is wearing MR.T level boost jewelry.


Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:
JJ Jordan wrote:
Mythic Evil Lincoln had a great post on this a while back.

The Anti-christmas Tree Effect. (Bear in mind the first post is NOT the final version, it develops quite a bit)

It covers the same ground as we've done here: people agree on the premise and differ wildly on the specific rates of increase.

What's important is to pick what sounds right based on your actual play experience with your group, since anything else will introduce false discrepancies.

Another nice trick was to include the bonuses on the statblock as a simple list in the order that they increase, and have an increase at each level. That way nobody needs to look up the table. That's how I did it.

Good luck with it, and keep up the strong efforts!

Is the googledoc in this one updated with the most recent rules. Google Doc I found in post


Dot.

If I were to list all the small tweaks and changes I've made to the game to kill the Christmas Tree effect, and attempt to close the caster/martial gap, you'd all be playing a different game.... Plus I'd have to get off my lazy rump and find all my old notes. Most of which I just shamelessly stole from these very forums (or other systems) and modified to work for my group (which at the moment is my fiance and me).

I've used modified Kolokotroni's (or however you spell his name) heroic distinction list, along with a few other tweaks mentioned here, to great effect while I still had a 4 person group... Until I basically just started playing Frankenstein with the game system. I can say from experience Heroic Distinctions and Scaling Items, particularly together, work wonders for a party.

Edited for clarification


DM_Kumo Gekkou wrote:
Is the googledoc in this one updated with the most recent rules. Google Doc I found in post

As far as I'm aware, this is current.

Again, ask 10 players what the bonuses should be in this case, and you'll get 10 different answers.

You should adjust the rule ahead of time to meet your groups' expectations, it will "work" better that way. You may wish to steal the format I've used to present it; I find the "enhancement" line on the stat block to be very useful for both GM reference and for players to note their next increase.


StabbittyDoom wrote:

One of the things I'll be doing for weapons is making it so that the passive enhancement actually *doesn't* bypass DR. However, the magic weapon spell increases the enhancment by +1 (max +3) and allows it to bypass /magic, and Greater Magic Weapon increases by +1 (max +5) while allowing the weapon to bypass all DRs for your total effective enhancement bonus. Abilities like Arcane Pool and Divine Bond work the same as GMW, but are given a max +6 for funzies. Having a weapon with a +1 bonus equivalent is also sufficient for bypassing magic DR, but not others. Greater Magic Fang can either function like Magic Weapon for all attacks, or the greater version for one attack.

You may also think about dropping the duration of greater magic weapon to 10 min/level.

I really like the idea of this system because it brings back a reason to use the short duration buffs like magic weapon, bull's strength, etc.


I would do this instead...
-A stat increase every level(max stat 20 at level 1, 25 beyond level 1, maybe 30 beyond level 10)
-+1 resistance bonus on saves at level 2, increases every by +1 for every 4 levels(+5 max at lv18)
-+1 deflection bonus to AC at level 3, increases by +1 for every 4 levels(+5 max at lv19)
-A constant 1st level spell effect(mage armor, endure elements, feather fall, or ant haul, maybe a few others but not shield) at 1st level.
-Cloaks of resistance, rings of deflection, stat boosting items, would not exist.
-Amulets of natural would exist but modified to be more interesting and useful.
-Characters who focus on unarmed strike(maybe natural attacks as well) would gain a +1 enhancement bonus to there attack/damage at level 4 and it will increase by +1 for every 4 levels(max +5 at level 20). Note this bonus does not have any effect on what kind of DR you can get by except magic and that you can harm incorporeal creatures.
-No item creation feats except scribe scroll and brew potion.
-Starting money would be two levels lower.


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I like the wealth by level is X levels lower idea. It is a lot easier to eyeball then 2/5.

The other idea I get from MEL comments is that rather than making the increases static(you gain X at level Y). Make it so the player can pick and choose which bonus they get when. For example, every level choose +1 to enhancement AC, natural armor, deflection, or all saves(max +1 pr 3 levels with a +5 max total). Then, the player can decide at any given level if they need AC or saves more.

Finally, one idea I have seen on stat increases is to use stat points(from the point buy table) instead of actual increases to stats. If you extend the stat buy table beyond 18(the price per point goes up by one at every even stat value), it looks like this.
19 - 21 point
20 - 26 points
21 - 31 points
22 - 37 points
23 - 43 points
24 - 50 points
25 - 57 points
26 - 65 points
27 - 73 points
28 - 82 points
29 - 91 points
30 - 101 points

Now throw in something where the players gain stat points like this(basically every level you gain 2 stat points + 1 per 4 levels)
1 - Original point buy(OPB)
2 - OPB + 2
3 - OPB + 4
4 - OPB + 7
5 - OPB + 10
6 - OPB + 13
7 - OPB + 16
8 - OPB + 20
9 - OPB + 24
10 - OPB + 28
11 - OPB + 32
12 - OPB + 37
13 - OPB + 42
14 - OPB + 47
15 - OPB + 52
16 - OPB + 58
17 - OPB + 64
18 - OPB + 70
19 - OPB + 76
20 - OPB + 83

If you start with an 18, you could raise it all the way to a 29, but you would only have 19 points left to spend on other stats. Throw on a +2 racial bonus, and you cap out at 31 on a single stat. Compare this to the current system where you can out at 18(base) +2(racial) +5(levels) +6 enhancement) +5 inherent = 36. BUT if you had a 10 on every stat, you would be able to raise them all to 18 over 20 levels. In other words, this system greatly benefits MAD classes over SAD ones, and encourages players to be more rounded. Also, remember that the short duration enhancement buffs are still available, and useful.

Overall, I think I like this a bit better because...
1. It discourages SAD character from just MAXing out a single stat.
2. It give most of the control over when things go up to the player.
3. Brings short duration stat buffs back into the game.

The only con seems like the extra bookkeeping for the stat increases, so it really comes down to the question is if the MAD/SAD balance is worth the extra bookkeeping.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Whew! I'm back. Thanks to everyone for posting their thoughts and suggestions here!

First up, I have not been idle over the last week. I now present... You Are Not Your Gear, Version 4! Now on Google Docs! Yay! The link is here:

You Are Not Your Gear - Version 4
Patch Notes:
-Players get their +1 Ability Score boost every 4 levels again.
-Deflection and Natural Armor bonuses have been moved up to the higher levels. Sorry, but no +1 Ring of Deflection until level 11. On the plus side...
-Ability Score boosts and Armor/Saves/Weapon boosts have been shifted lower.

And now, on to the replies:

@Mythic Evil Lincoln - Yes, I know, everyone has their own ideas about how to balance and tweak the game, but that's part of the fun of Pathfinder homebrew; you get to see some of the wild and wacky ideas people have come up with. I just figured I'd share my take on the whole mandatory-magic-item thing, and see what parts other people like and what parts they don't. I did rip off your "2 Ability Scores/4 Ability Scores" choice players can make; let me know if you want credit for it.

@Artemis Moonstar and @Larkspire - I still haven't figured out how to do NPC gear properly, and I'm not sure if I'll get around to it. I generally don't allow the Leadership feat in my campaign anyway, so player cohorts aren't an issue for me. As for NPC's the characters interact/fight with... most of them should just use the bonuses for a PC of their level/CR.

@Charender - Doh! Why didn't I think of dropping the duration?! 1 Hour/CL for a buff like that does seem pretty lengthy. I'll make a note. Thanks!

@Dragon78 and @Charender - Your ideas both sound cool, but that's more of an overhaul than I'm comfortable doing. Again, I'm at least trying to keep this near default Pathfinder/PFS levels, so it's hard for me to do major reworks. Both of those ideas sound great, though! I hadn't even considered extending Point Buy past first level, and use that to balance the ability score boosts. I guess it's because Point Buy is still "optional" in the default rules, I hadn't thought about putting it more firmly into the game.


Arbalester wrote:
@Mythic Evil Lincoln - Yes, I know, everyone has their own ideas about how to balance and tweak the game, but that's part of the fun of Pathfinder homebrew; you get to see some of the wild and wacky ideas people have come up with. I just figured I'd share my take on the whole mandatory-magic-item thing, and see what parts other people like and what parts they don't. I did rip off your "2 Ability Scores/4 Ability Scores" choice players can make; let me know if you want credit for it.

That's all the credit I could want right there. And it's not a rip-off if it's freely given. I hope the earlier thread was of some use to you.


Arbalester wrote:


@Charender - Doh! Why didn't I think of dropping the duration?! 1 Hour/CL for a buff like that does seem pretty lengthy. I'll make a note. Thanks!

Yeah, I use greater magic weapon/magic vestment as a replacement for enchanting my weapons and armor all the time on my clerics. Once you hit level 9, you are looking at extended versions of these spells lasting 18 hours. At that point, they might as well be considered permanent buffs. Hence, the need to modify some of these spells.

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