|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What a curiously poetic, emotionally charged, and curiously specific choice of words to describe the 'modern' gamer... These guys really sound like they know whats up. This seems like a pretty significant issue.
Yeah nice try. That post you referenced was taken from a bloat thread. Which imo has nothing to do with this topic. I was never referencing any modern gamer in the least. I was pointing out that complaining about Paizo releasing new material. Then trying to come across as a victim by saying that one is forced to buy new material. No one is forced to buy anything. It's like a raging diabetic who keeps eating donuts. Then complains that he is forced to eat then because Dunkin Donuts keeps producing them every day.
Hardly anything close to "oh these modern gamers with their mmos and player entitled attitudes. It's them and Pathfinder that are ruining the hobby. Nothing anyone says will ever change my mind about that" stance that your taking.
Again your more then welcome to post here. At the same take responsability for what you post as well. Posters want to come here. Post whatever they want positive and negative. Then when it bites them in the behind because it causes a negative reaction. They get angry, offeneded and defensive. You can't have it both ways. Go to a forum. Post whatever you like despite the content. Then play the victim when it gets a negative reaction.
Which applies to me as well. If I ever post something inflammatory or negative such as blaming the ruin of rpgs to Pathfinder and a modern crowd. I expect the rest of the forum to do the same thing. I don't think people understand or want to understand that Freedom of speech is a two way street. A person is allowed to say what they want. Everyone else is allowed to crticize what they say. As freedom of speech does not suddenly make one immune to criticism.
I like how your sales pitch is 'freedom of speech'
Interface design: By all means tell me how you really feel!
User experience: I dare you!
So your policy on forum posts is 'be ready for me to disagree with you or don't post at all'
You're free to post here as long as you're prepared to cheerfully endure my response.
Is that how we do it?
Perhaps you should instead follow the advice of this wise fellow:
Don't like a certain topic don't post in it.
Being 'free to disagree' is one thing.. But its not really your thing. Is it?
You're totally free to disagree with me but i'm not as totally free to disagree with you.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So basically you want to come here. Say whatever you want to say. No matter how negative or inflammatory. Then get called out on it and cry foul and act like some sort of victim. Ok I can't stop you from doing that. All I'm saying is if one wants to engage in such behavior. To take responsability for it. I'm not impressed with this new social movement. Where somehow one can say what they want. Yet somehow be immune to feedback or criticism. If a posters is going to come here. Draw a line in the sand by picking a side. Then say negative comments about the other is asking to be crticized imo.
Coming here and accusing both the mmo generation and Pathfinder as a rpg for the downfall of rpgs. Implying that it's not only a opinion but a fact. Well VT did you honestly think that would go over well with some here. It goes back to wanting to say whatever a person feels like while being immune to feedback or criticism. One can it have it both ways.
Being 'free to disagree' is one thing.. But its not really your thing. Is it?
You're totally free to disagree with me but i'm not as totally free to disagree with you.
Are you archiving or saving everything I post on these forums. It's starting to creep me out somewhat. As rest assured I'm not doing the same. The post you referenced was from the same bloat thread. Again with a difference that you seem to want to ignore.
Some posters go into those threads that criticize Paizo and tell people to leave and find another rpg. Simply because I or others dislike a rule or feat or the design process. I'm not telling you to leave or find another forum. Post whatever you want. Disagree as much as you like with my posts or others. All I'm saying expect the same in return and take responsability for what is posted. Espcially if it's a negative or inflammatory post.
So basically you want to come here. Say whatever you want to say. No matter how negative or inflammatory. Then get called out on it and cry foul and act like some sort of victim.
Not exactly. What I'd rather have is those that agree with me say such and those that disagree with me do so respectfully. It is, in fact, an option. I don't have to tell you there are some other forums that moderate the threads by disallowing people to just show up in someones thread for the sole purpose of disagreeing with it. My suggestion is that people could also self-moderate towards the same goal. Since the mods cant babysit us 24x7, sometimes its our job to self regulate and sometimes that means looking at a post from someone you disagree with and choosing 'wow. nah. I'm not gonna touch that'. I know its possible because of the sheer number of posts I personally choose not to respond to.
Sometimes when the community guidelines are to keep it civil, that means that when you see my opinion and think i'm not being civil, instead of matching your perception of that incivility in your own posts and behaviors, you may have instead perhaps simply flagged my post replied to it. If enough people agree with you my posts will simply disappear. Wouldn't you like that? Oh I forget, thats right, you wouldn't because you 'enjoy spirited debate' and 'forum activism'.
Ok I can't stop you from doing that. All I'm saying is if one wants to engage in such behavior. To take responsability for it. I'm not impressed with this new social movement. Where somehow one can say what they want. Yet somehow be immune to feedback or criticism. If a posters is going to come here. Draw a line in the sand by picking a side. Then say negative comments about the other is asking to be criticized imo.
So your philosophy is that the purpose of the forums, for people in general, who share in varied interests in varied conditions, within a very diverse hobby... is to combat those that have opposing points of view for you as a higher priority than likeminded gamers coming together... Where I see the forums as a way for gamers to come together to meet like minded individuals within the gaming community, you see the forums as a way for gamers to come together to meet individuals whos mind is most like your own and to instigate against those who dont... Marvelous. Gotcha.
I mean unless that's not actually true. Don't let me put words in your mouth. I wouldn't want to build a strawman of you. We are men of action. Lies do not become us.
Are you archiving or saving everything I post on these forums?
I wonder if I am. Or maybe I searched the last 10 or 20 posts you've made recently which is an amazingly easy thing to do. You often use the exact words I'm trying to use, and I choose your posts since you seem to like listening to yourself. I'm trying to accomodate your communication style. If there's one thing I promise you i'm not doing, I'm not counting the number of your posts that in my opinion 'demand a response' and i've chosen to take the high road. I can additionally tell you that the number of posts you've made that I would feel justified in issuing a personal insult against you is zero. But thats because of my views and in no way reflects the quality and content of anyone else's posts in particular.
I self regulate. If I had to guess? I'd say I do it a lohohohohot. Because most of the time when I post any kind of personal opinion, this thread is the kind of response I get. I seem to simply be too stupid to give up trying.
It's starting to creep me out somewhat.
Sorry you dont like people looking at what you write... I'll try to stop. The irony is not lost on me that you on the one hand profess that debate and disagreement are part and parcel of the forum experience, unless i'm using it against you. I should perhaps simply roll over and let people call me ignorant... Attack me personally and turn the other cheek. The fact that my views are 'controversial' to you is all the ammo these threads need. Ignoring would not do it justice. Flagging it would not do it justice.
I mean I did the right thing. I flagged the personal insult... But flagging isnt a perfect system. It may be weighted by popularity and surely there are not enough people here who would flag it as inappropriate because its the right thing to do and refuse to police themselves if they share the perspective of the attacker. Specifically this thread has shown that a personal insult and attack on a poster is something to be quoted and spread.
This is the kind of behavior I'm actually talking about in the first place. I don't show up to the forums for the purposes of starting arguments. I don't come to the forums hoping to run into a cacophony of folks in unified disagreement with me and hoping they say so surreptitiously, insistantly and/or insultingly. I indeed may be looking for a different kind of conversation than you are. But your soapbox should always take precedence over my desire to find like minded individuals within the gaming community.
That's what I'm reading here.
I like how your sales pitch is 'freedom of speech'
Interface design: By all means tell me how you really feel!
User experience: I dare you!
So your policy on forum posts is 'be ready for me to disagree with you or don't post all'
shouldn't that be one's perspective in general on the internets? There's always going to be at least one angry crank out there.
Oh I know. I'm not quoting you in order to illustrate that you believe that gaming the game ruins the hobby. Simply to illustrate that you've said plenty of stuff yourself that shows that the game itself is rife with such people, which is indeed my point.
In the same way that shadowrun attracts a higher percentage of players who like to be stealthy and plan ahead. Intentional or not.
The Gm that I had the biggest trust issues with was also the best one I've ever played with.
His stories an concepts were amazing, and the games were a beautiful thing to be a a part of.
He himself was as non-confrontational as they come, and would allow crafty (read: intentionally deceptive) players to do things that ruined a few of his otherwise awesome story lines.
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Are you archiving or saving everything I post on these forums.
I feel like I'm missing some kind of irony here.
Yeah. I had a first edition warhammer gm that was one of those 'my story doesnt work unless you do exactly what I expect you to do' kind of guys. Coupled with a high lethality sort of schtick. Everything I don't like in a game. But I played it anyway... The only thing I managed to be able to pull off was a particularly fervent resistance to death, but otherwise I had fairly little player agency... I found a way to make it fun for me in a way that I'd never have needed to resort to in campaigns with more like minded gms. Unfortunately our kinds of fun weren't compatible.
I totally didn't trust him but even then I was able to use that to try some things that I normally would never bother trying. I'm glad such things are the exception not the rule, but in the long view I gained some new perspective in that challenging unusual situation. I wouldnt call any of it 'fun' but it was educational.
|
|
So your philosophy is that the purpose of the forums, for people in general, who share in varied interests in varied conditions, within a very diverse hobby... is to combat those that have opposing points of view for you as a higher priority than likeminded gamers coming together... Where I see the forums as a way for gamers to come together to meet like minded individuals within the gaming community, you see the forums as a way for gamers to come together to meet individuals whos mind is most like your own and to instigate against those who dont... Marvelous. Gotcha.
I do think their is a difference in having opposing viewpoints. And one where a poster paints a entire generation of gamers in a negative way. Saying that the current generation of gamers can't roleplay because of computer games and mmos. While blaming Pathfinder. Is not conductive to having a good discussion. I'm 40 and probably your age or close to it. So while I was not offended too much by it. I do think it's being unfair. This hobby needs new blood. It can survive eternally with older gamers imo. Maybe it was not your intention but it does kind of come off as insulting.
A potential gamer in their early teens to mid twenties. Comes on the forum and lurks in the background without making a account. After reading some of what gets posted here. With all due respect to some members of this forum. Your not doing the hobby any favors. Your really not. If I was getting into the hobby and reading some of the BS some of the older members post here. I can tell you I would not enter the hobby. It's also some what of a insult at Paizo as well. I have had my share of disagreements with the devs. Accusing them of being responsible for the decline of gaming. Is simply not true.
As far back as 1E their were problem players. It's not something that suddenly came into existence with 3E. I had a player who I known for years. Who a few months ago I asked to leave my game. Unless we played Palladium he simply shut down at the table. Was there simply because his brother was there. I put up with it for so many years and enough was enough. It was not the only reason it was a bunch of others. My first gaming group I am ashamed to say were and still act like some stereotypes of the hobby. I also don't came with them. Nor hangout with them anymore.
I think at this point VT were not going to agree. I was kidding about archiving my posts as well. I know your not maybe the NSA or CSIS as I'm Canadian. All I'm saying is be careful what you post. Expect a negative reaction if it's going to be a inflammatory kind of post. Those are the kinds of posts that usually get a strong reaction imo.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's a whole lot of ignorant hostility and nostalgia tripping in this thread.
"Back in my day, men were men and gamers were gamers and everything was perfect and everybody and everything today is doing it wrong *Waves cane wildly*".
Get over yourselves.
Heh. I've been playing these games for 35 years now and despite being a fuddy duddy I have to agree w/Ryn. With all due respect, and I mean RESPECT to the versions that came before and the kinds of players they engendered, I had more negative experiences back in the day than I have now.
Again, YMMV and everyone's game is different. I run PF though and occasionally 1980's Marvel Super Heroes. These are now the ONLY 2 systems I run.
My players either trust or don't trust me based on their feelings, not on a ruleset. They SHOULD know everything; they are all GMs in their own PF games, but I put some monsters or traps or spells out there and they get their heads handed to them. Why? Because PF has a mechanic for knowing a monster by using a Knowledge check and my players NEVER use it.
Players are gonna play. GMs are gonna run. It has been this way forever. When I was a kid I had to kick a guy out of the game for a session because he was flipping through the MM right there under the table. The minute any of my friends took a turn being DM they borrowed the DMG and suddenly they were all rules lawyers yelling at me for doing it wrong. We didn't use maps or minis so we fought a lot over placement and distance.
Now everyone knows everything. There IS a mechanic for everything. These are unfortunate in that I see everyone's point that the games HAVE become more mechanical. However since everyone already knows everything I find LESS shenanigans at the table instead of more. Games are more streamlined. Sure there are now shameless optimizers who break immersion for another +2 but for the most part my players show up to play a game and not to catch me in some terrible ruling or whatever.
Bottom line there will ALWAYS be those players that feel like their game is out to get them. It happened in 1e; it happens in PF; i suspect my friend running 5e has one of these folks. It is human nature to fear relinquishing control to an outside force such as dice or a GM. Let us be human together and game on.
I enjoy PF. I play with guys that eke every possible thing out of a class/race combo they can. I does not hamper their RP in any way, and they don't throw fits when stuff is "sprung" on them in game.
I am 41, and my players range from 25-35. So, I dunno who you're playing with Vincent, but it ain't the game.
Depends... Are you over thirty?About 90% of the time, I am the DM.
But can I trust myself?
A gentlemen never asks, and a lady never tells. :P