Fox Shape natural attack build ideas. Advice and discussion wanted!


Advice

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So I have been wondering what my next PFS character should be and I think I've decided to make it a Kitsune dex based natural attack build using Fox shape.
I still haven't quite figured out how the build should be made so I thought I would bounce a few idea's off you guys.
Obviously the first question is where do we get the claws from?
Natural attack style ranger/slayer and beast totem barbarian are the most obvious choices so lets start with those.
The barbarian one feels a bit unreliable as it is of course only during your rage although as you level that becomes irrelevant but still quite annoying during low levels.
The Ranger/Slayer one seems to be the simplest as you just get two claws as the bonus feat. But since the rest of the feats in the natural attack style seem quite weak, it makes me wonder if you really need more than the 2 levels.
So here are a few combinations I thought would be nice.

Slayer/ranger2-PaladinX? Seems like paladin would be a nice choice since we are already getting a bit of cha from Kitsune and we need that for the fox shape feat and it would let us bypass one of our biggest problems which is DR.

Straigt Urban Barbarian. This is of course a very strong option. Stacking all the dex! Really doesn't matter how exactly you build this as long as you get the beast totem I guess.

Slayer3-RogueX. You wont be all that far behind in sneak attack damage with this if you wanted to be a rogue ish type seems like a nice choice.

Mouser Swashbuckler1-Slayer/Ranger2-CavalierX(Or something with teamwork feats). Mouser seems interesting becouse of free weapon finesse, with fox shape and flanking anything adjacent seemed like a good excuse to go cavalier and get some cool teamwork feats along with challenge(intimidate build?).

Though to be honest that one mouser dip would be nice in all of these builds.

So what do you guys think? Any idea's? Maybe some more specific builds? not really sure where you go in the later levels.


An alchemist with feral mutagen would work providing you can pick up and drink the mutagen in fox shape. The beastmorph archetype might help.

Various druid archetypes (___ Shaman) get the ability to grow claws or talons. Unfortunately natural spell only lets you cast in wild shape, not when otherwise transformed.

Eldritch scion magus or bloodrager can get a claw-growing bloodline. Again, no good way of casting in fox shape as far as I know though.


Well s$~& I just realized from reading through this thread that I can't use aspect of the beast with my fox form...(actually there are alot of conflicting opinions) damn I guess ill be going some variation of barbarian or alchemist as you suggested


You think I should just go straight up barbarian? I was getting kind of exited from doing some awesome multiclassing.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Urban Barbarian is not a bad choice. A 3 level dip can be enough especially with the Extra Rage feat and Berserker of the Society trait to have enough rage rounds.

Dips into other classes can include:
Swashbuckler Mouser 1 is great
Master of Many Forms monk for some great Style feats
Warpriest for some nice Blessing and Fervor buffs
Ranger 2 Freebooter or Slayer 2 for favorite target bonus and ranger feat
Archaeologist Bard 1 for Archaeologist Luck plus Lingering Song and with Fates Favored a great bonus on abilities. Note also qualifies you for Arcane Strike so you can make your natural attacks magical.
Brawler 1 for Martial Versatility
Hunter 1 plus Dead animal companion for Animal Focus
Alchemist 1 for Mutagen and Extracts
Fighter 2 for bonus feats
Vexing Dodger Rogue 1

Shadow Lodge

I assume your first big purchase will be an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists. I like the Ranger/Slayer 2/Paladin X build.

Grand Lodge

So, a few notes. Urban barbarian is nice for getting you some extra attacks and pounce.
The downside of course is that with alignment restrictions there is no way to get that and take any levels of monk or paladin.

If you want to do multi classing, I would recommend taking a lot them in order to stack up a lot of bonus feats and saving throws.

Here is a version of a character I ran up to level 12, with a slight alteration since I also just discovered aspect of the beast won't work.

Classes:
Level 1: Swashbuckler (Mouser)
Level 2: Fighter (unarmed fighter)
Level 3: Paladin (Iroran)
Level 4: Monk (Master of Many Styles + Kata Master)
Level 5: Monk (Master of Many Styles + Kata Master)
Level 6: Paladin (Iroran)
Level 7: Druid (Eagle Shaman)
Level 8: Druid (Eagle Shaman)
Level 9: Paladin (Iroran)
Level 10: Paladin (Iroran)
Level 11: dip of your choice or continue w/ Iroran paladin

Eagle shaman should give you the extra natural attacks you want.


Looking at this myself I think i'm going to go mouser 1 urban barbarian x.

My only problem is it really, really doesn't work well till 3. Not that starting at three is that big a deal for me but....

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I am so sorry Breq but the eagle shaman transformation ability is a polymorph effect so won't stack with other polymorph effects. Assuming you were using that ability to grow claws?

Totem Transformation (Su)

At 2nd level, a bear shaman may adopt an aspect of the bear while retaining her normal form. She gains one of the following bonuses:

movement (+10 enhancement bonus to land speed, +4 racial bonus on Swim checks)
senses (low-light vision, scent)
toughness (+2 natural armor bonus to AC, Endurance feat)
natural weapons (bite [1d6] and 2 claws [1d4] for a Medium shaman, +2 to CMB on grapple checks)
While using totem transformation, the bear shaman may speak normally and can cast speak with animals (mammals only) at will. Using this ability is a standard action at 2nd level, a move action at 7th level, and a swift action at 12th level. The bear shaman can use this ability for a number of minutes per day equal to her druid level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be used in 1-minute increments. This is a polymorph effect and cannot be used while the druid is using another polymorph effect, such as wild shape.


so question, does wild armor or wild spell work with form of the dragon? or because dragons are casters in their own right you could still cast spells in that form


Hey thanks for the awesome suggestions guys!

@Taenia Wow those are allot of suggestions unfortunately the ranger natural weapon style doesn't work with fox shape but the bard dip seems interesting. I do agree master of many styles seems nice as well but I'm not sure I want to wade through the quicksand(s+~!sand) that is arguing with and trying to convince people about unarmed attacks while in the fox form.

@Saving Cap'n Crunch Yeah I will be pretty useless until I get that damn amulet so I think I'm going to try get some DM credit somehow
Yeah I liked the paladin as well too bad you cant be a barbarian/paladin since aspect doesn't work

@Breq of Toren Yeah I saw your other build in your thread is soon as i posted this one. Your build seems really complicated but still really fun to play so ill have to think about that.
Also I think there is a monk trait that allows them to be non lawful.. if I could just remember the name.

--EDIT--
Ah damn it was Enlightened warrior but it is a Aasimar only feat


Wild armor: Wild armor specifically calls out wild shape: not wild shape and similar polymorph effects, so no by raw.

Natural spell) likewise caries the specific cause of wild shape.


@BigNorseWolf Yeah that seems like the simplest choice. Got any idea with the feat/ragepower progression? You know beyond lesser beast totem/finesse-piranha strike there is no need to go further down the beast like since you can get vulpine pounce. So I wonder what choices i have


I'm looking at step up/stepup and strike, since people 5 foot stepping away seems to be a problem when you don't have reach.


Oh and just an overall natural attack question. Is it possible to have a bite and a gore attack?


Woodoodoo wrote:
Oh and just an overall natural attack question. Is it possible to have a bite and a gore attack?

Gargoyles and dragons say yes.


But not say, A fox with bite and lesser fiend totem?


Woodoodoo wrote:
But not say, A fox with bite and lesser fiend totem?

No, anyone can. Those where just two examples that have both.


Oh cool I guess I can have four attacks then bite 2xclaw and a gore.

Grand Lodge

One level of Mouser, Step Up, Step Up and Strike, and an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, you can pretty much go in any direction you want. Paladin for smiting and saves, rogue or slayer for sneak attack, etc.


Well I need the Barbarian levels I think for the claws and sadly I cant be a barbarian/paladin :s. Aspect of the beast doesn't work in Fox shape

Sovereign Court

The thread about the songbird of doom would be useful, though I note that Breq already posted a variant of that here. I personally am doing something similar for my kitsune and it is just about to hit level 3 after one more scenario. Mouser to start off with is very useful. Getting some route to the Monkey style top tier feat (through MoMS) will mean that you are hard to hit the enemy whos square you are in as well as them having a harder time hitting anyone else as well.

I'll probably be finishing off with the Ioroan Paladin archetype for the healing, saves and CHA to AC plus magic weapon stuff later on. Just got to be careful to keep your BAB at +1 per level for the first 3 so you can get the fox shape feat as soon as possible. Grr that it can't be taken at 1st level.


How are you getting other natural attacks than bite?


Woodoodoo wrote:
How are you getting other natural attacks than bite?

Beast totem barbarian. It grows claws when you rage rather than just having claws, so it works with the polymorph effect.


I know about that BigNorse but I was asking how Ellias was getting them.
--edit-- Kinda sad that this build only works with barbarian now if it's supposed to be PFS legal

Contributor

As BigNorseWolf said, the best thing that you can do is add on additional natural weapons to your Fox Shape. This is specifically allowed by the polymorph sub school, which calls out sorcerer bloodline powers as an example. Barbarian rage powers are also an example, and in practice they're the best option to choose from.

Barbarians have plenty of ways to gain natural attacks in Pathfinder. They can gain a bite attack using animal fury, claw attacks using abyssal blood, draconic blood, and lesser beast totem, and a gore attack using lesser fiend totem. Since kitsune have a bite attack both in natural form and in Fox Shape, our best bet is to grab lesser fiend totem for a gore attack and either abyssal blood or draconic blood for claws.

Because you're a Tiny creature, your natural weapons are going to have an extremely low damage bonus because of your reduced size. Also, shrinking in size via Fox Shape is going to further penalize your damage. One of the most important things that we need to figure out is how to add on as many damage bonuses to our natural attacks as possible. The best option would be to pick the urban barbarian archetype, which will allow you to improve your Dexterity when you rage instead of its usual benefits. You'll likely want to use Dex to Hit instead of Strength, so Weapon Finesse is going to be a must-have for you. Mouser (swashbuckler) is an obvious choice, but it comes with a downside; claw attacks don't deal piercing damage, so you can't use swashbuckler's finesse to finesse them. Likewise, precise strike deed doesn't work with claw attacks, so you can't rely on the swashbuckler for bonus damage.

With this in mind, your best option is to grab Piranha Strike and a +1 agile amulet of mighty fists. This super-expensive magic item (16,000 gp, in fact) will allow you to use your Dexterity modifier on damage rolls with all of your natural weapons instead of your Strength. Personally, I would continue to advance as a barbarian and probably pick the Monkey Style feats, as Monkey Shine gives massive benefits while you're fighting within someone else's space. I don't think I would use mouser, personally.

But yeah, your big focus for this build should be numerical bonuses on damage rolls, especially those that can be applied to all of your natural weapons simultaneously. Use the fact that all of your natural attacks are primary attacks to your advantage.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Keep in mind that you can buy an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists for 4000k and upgrade it later.

Two levels of ranger get you a bonus feat, for example 2 levels of Two handed weapon style will get you power attack without the needed Str. Though piranha strike does work, its about a bonus feat and the ability of the freebooter to mark a target for +1 to hit/dmg as a move action, at will.

Damage is not a problem, though Halfling race provides a boost with Risky Striker. I have a build I posted in the Bird thread that does 3 attacks at lvl 4 for 1d3 + 17 damage. For a kitsune you could take 2 Urban Barb, 2 Fighter grab Weapon Finesse, Fox Shape, Piranha Strike and Extra Rage and with the Agile AoMF be doing 3x 1d3 + 13 at level 4.

Grand Lodge

Taenia wrote:

Keep in mind that you can buy an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists for 4000k and upgrade it later.

Two levels of ranger get you a bonus feat, for example 2 levels of Two handed weapon style will get you power attack without the needed Str. Though piranha strike does work, its about a bonus feat and the ability of the freebooter to mark a target for +1 to hit/dmg as a move action, at will.

Damage is not a problem, though Halfling race provides a boost with Risky Striker. I have a build I posted in the Bird thread that does 3 attacks at lvl 4 for 1d3 + 17 damage. For a kitsune you could take 2 Urban Barb, 2 Fighter grab Weapon Finesse, Fox Shape, Piranha Strike and Extra Rage and with the Agile AoMF be doing 3x 1d3 + 13 at level 4.

The other key thing to note with the AoMF is that because you'll have a lot of attacks the most cost effective way to make sure you can get past DR is to first buy an Agile AoMF then upgrade it to add fury born, which increases the effective bonus on the weapon by 1 for each time you have hit the opponent.


Thanks Alexander.
Oh wow I had completely forgotten about the bloodrager powers draconic blood matches nicely with fiend totem and I obviously didn't need beast totem since I have access to vulpine pounce already.
Feral combat training+snake style might solve the finesse problem but that just seems like a bit too many feats.
I like monkey style as well but I have one problem if how effectively will I be able to stay inside his square?
Also you can get just an agile AoMF for 4000 you don't need it to be magic.
Also one of my worries is DR how can I bypass that effectively my first plan was to go paladin but obviously I cant do that with the barbarian.
And yes I realise my damage die are going to be very low but thought I could compensate with incredibly high dex and piranha strike.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

DR will be a problem. Furyborn will work eventually but that will be down the road.

Consumables may help you, Potions of Blessed Weapon enchant one attack with both magic and good. Potions of Magic Fang, Gr. Magic Fang will also work.

In some cases you just have to deal with it and still contribute. I can think of one fight vs. 4 - 5 lvl PCs where the monsters had DR 10. In that case you would still be doing 1d3 + 3 with the fighter/barb build.


I don't know. I know this is amazing with halflings(damn you risky striker!). But the bird ring but it just seemed a bit too much, to get beast shape IV you know? I thought fox shape would be a nice middle ground.
Also, are natural attacks close weapons?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I would definitely build this as a Kitsune, grab the ring as well. That way you can go aerial when needed but if something changes with the ring you still have a viable build.


I guess the only way to get smite outside of paladin is chevalier but that is only once per day.. I kind of wanted to use the fact that I'm using at least 13 charisma to get fox shape. But thanks for all your awesome suggestions guys really starting to get an idea of how this character will be.

Also are there any more natural attacks I can get? Maybe some way to get a slam attack or something?
I found the cloak of the manta ray not sure about that one.
And also Tentacle cloak but that is only once per day :p although it might be cool with chevalier+vulpine pounce for one big super attack :p

--Edit-- Oh wait I cant use items while polymorphed can I?
--Edit2-- Oh I just found out I can take the Enlightened warrior trait through the adopted trait so at least I can dip a level or two into monk.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

If you want to take advantage of your Charisma grab 1 level of Archaeologist Bard, Fates Favored Trait and Lingering Song Feat

As a swift you can give yourself a +2 luck bonus to hit/dmg/saves/skill checks 6/day at 3 rounds each w/ 14 Cha.


Hmm am I even able to afford a furyborn weapon before lvl 12?
What do you guys think of hammer the gap? Seems like it would be nice with 4+ attacks.

Scarab Sages

Hammer the Gap looks better on paper than it is in practice. Since the damage resets on a miss it's rare for you to get the full benefit, and it only helps full attacks.


Ah I see I didn't realize it reset on miss


What about feral combat training and monk levels?

Flurrying with one natural attack?

Is there any way to make enhancing on natural cheaper then enhancing all of them?


Yeah but why wouldn't you just use Unarmed attacks then?

Scarab Sages

Andy Ferguson wrote:


Is there any way to make enhancing on natural cheaper then enhancing all of them?

If you have a gore attack, Tusk Blades. If you are catfolk, Claw Blades. If you are ratfolk, tailblades. That's it.


Andy Ferguson wrote:
What about feral combat training and monk levels?

Won't work with urban barbarian, but doesn't help much. I think you can flurry with a bite but not flurry and use natural attacks. Also doesn't work with barbarian.

Quote:
Flurrying with one natural attack?

Thats doable.

Quote:
Is there any way to make enhancing on natural cheaper then enhancing all of them?

That robe thing in ultimate equipment... *dig dig digs*

BODYWRAP OF MIGHTY STRIKES

Furryborn on multiple natural attacks will get you a higher bonus.

Scarab Sages

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:
What about feral combat training and monk levels?

Won't work with urban barbarian, but doesn't help much. I think you can flurry with a bite but not flurry and use natural attacks. Also doesn't work with barbarian.

It does if you take that trait, or if you are a martial artist (yay rage cycling). It also works with Brawler.


You can take the enlightened warrior aasimar trait through adopted BigNorseWolf! Yay barbarian/monk!


barbarian-finesse
barbarian-lesser draconic blood
fighter-fox shape-pirhana strike
barbarian
barbarian-lesser fiend totem-Snake style
MoMS monk-snake fang
MoMS monk-monkey style-monkey shine

This is what I think my feat order might be not sure about MoMs though, might be unnecessary.


How are you guys getting the claws to work with the mouser finesse? Claws are Bludgeoning and Slashing and not Piercing and therefore don't get the Weapon Finesse from Swashbuckler.
Also, you can't be a monk and a barbarian, monks must be lawful, barbarians must not be lawful.


Woodoodoo wrote:
You can take the enlightened warrior aasimar trait through adopted BigNorseWolf! Yay barbarian/monk!

Ah, I didn't see this. An interesting trait.


I dont have a mouser level. I just took weapon finesse


Ah damn I just realized I cant take snake style there since I obviously need the monk level first. Damn. I guess you swap the one barbarian level at 5 with the monk level on 6.

Contributor

You could go Unarmed Fighter and gain Improved Unarmed Strike and Snake Style for free as bonus feats.

You wouldn't be able to take later feats in the chain until you grabbed Stunning Fist around 8th level, but its feasible.


Seems like if I'm going style feats I might as well go MoMS just not sure what alternatives I would choose instead of the monk levels and those feats

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