Quick question for clarification from someone new to this - based on a Magus' ability to use spell combat, is he able to, at first level, declare use of spell combat, accept a -2 penalty to his attack for the round, make that attack, then cast true strike, and on his next turn declare the same and begin by casting blade lash with a +28 on his attempt to trip (+20 from true strike, +10 from blade lash, - 2 from spell combat) and follow up by stabbing his now almost guaranteed prone enemy with a -2 on his attack (though his opponent now has negative four to AC and hit and must accept an attack of opportunity to stand up)?
If so, could four magi in a party use this technique with reach weapons, considering the rules to remove your hand from a two handed weapon and return it as a free action, to choose two enemies and alternate who is casting blade lash that turn with who is casting true strike in order to keep them down until they run out of spells, getting attacks of opportunity if the enemies ever try to stand up, all while remaining out of reach of the targets and delivering their full number of attacks each turn?
Lastly, since blade lash specifically states that your weapon elongates and that "you can use this weapon to attempt a trip combat maneuver against one creature within 20 feet", my question is if you are using a weapon that already has a longer reach, like a long spear that is subsequently elongated by this spell would the recipient of this spell be able to use it to extend their reach by 20 feet for the trip attempt, or (in an extreme example) would a Huge giant magi enlarged to be Gargantuan while using a reach weapon still only be able to blade lash a target within 20 feet even though his weapon would normally reach further than that without the spell?
I believe the answers are:
a) Yes, this appears to work. True Strike is an insight bonus, and Blade Lash is an untyped bonus.
b) Yes, likely. You'd have to work out the correct sequence, but four characters could overwhelm 2 npcs like this. Keep in mind that you can't trip someone when the attack of opportunity when they stand up, so it wouldn't be possible to completely lock them down with this. They could stand (suffering up to 4 AoO, depending on whose reach they are in), then 5' step and attack (assuming they survived the AoOs). Also, if someone takes an AoO after they've cast True Strike, the True Strike bonus would apply to the AoO. It applies to the next attack, so it can't be held. If they wanted to save it for another trip, they'd have to skip the AoO.
c) By a strict reading, you can only trip a target within 20 feet. Much like a whip, though, the target can be anywhere within 20 feet, and there is no hole in the area you can attack like there is with a normal reach weapon. I could see a GM ruling that it increases your reach, though, as a house rule.
1) Yes, you can do that, although it's probably overkilll. The bonus from Blade Lash will often be enough on its own.
2) Well, you're still spending actions on casting/delivering Blade Lash and on casting True Strike instead of some touch attack or self-buff spell. So I wouldn't call it "getting all your attacks".
Also, remember that you can't trip someone who is already prone. The AoO you get against someone standing up comes before the guy has fully stood up, so you can't keep him on the ground. But you can trip him again afterwards, of course.
Also, I notice you're really looking forward to using this; please also remember that Blade Lash doesn't remove the size limits on tripping. Don't make this your only tactic.
3) Blade Lash extends your weapon to 20ft, not plus 20ft. Arguably, if your weapon was already longer than 20ft, it'd shrink.
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Blade Lash is an awesome spell. Personally I think it's way better than True Strike, because it's so much faster.
Drevek wrote: considering the rules to remove your hand from a two handed weapon and return it as a free action Be cautious here. Reallydepends on what you have in mind. Don't forget that spell combat requires that you use a light or one-handed weapon when you use it: (ultimate magic says)"To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. "
But you could cast true strike (no spellcombat) on round 1, and attack / trip with your two-handed weapon on the next round...
Cuttler wrote: Drevek wrote: considering the rules to remove your hand from a two handed weapon and return it as a free action Don't forget that spell combat requires that you use a light or one-handed weapon when you use it: (ultimate magic says)"To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. "
Thanks for pointing that out! Given all of the feedback, I think we'd go one handed weapons, cast long-arm, then use blade lash to do trips, two of us focus down just one guy, the other two hold actions to trip them again should they try to get off of the ground, and all four of us take attacks of opportunity when available.
I.E., we're four level 1 magi trying to take out two roughly level 9 guys. Two of us use spell combat to cast blade lash, trip them both, then team up on one and stab him twice. Our two buddies have blade lash prepared as a ready action if either of the two try to get off the ground. If they attempt to stand, we target all four of our attacks of opportunity at the same guy we already stabbed if possible, then the ready actions kick in and they get tripped again. This turn, the guys doing spell combat cast shocking grasp and stab their prone target twice each, once as a free action with shocking grasp, once with their normal stab. Rinse and repeat until guy number one is dead, then focus guy number two. The first guy should have taken six potential hits by turn two, ten if he tried to stand up. He's dead that round or the next. Then the four of us gang up on the other one and kill him.
That would work within RAW, yeah, for as long as we had the spells to burn?
Yeah, that would work, until the guy on the ground realizes he's a high enough level with enough feats and BAB to just kill you while still prone.
Ascalaphus wrote: 3) Blade Lash extends your weapon to 20ft, not plus 20ft. Arguably, if your weapon was already longer than 20ft, it'd shrink. That's how I read it, too. Personally, that's ridiculously silly to me and I would house rule the other direction, but I think you're correct about RAW.
"The titan casts Blade Lash and - uh, well - I guess today's you're lucky day! He can't do shit with that because that can't reach you. Unfortunately, he stomps you to death from 40 feet away instead."
Ascalaphus wrote: Blade Lash is an awesome spell. Personally I think it's way better than True Strike, because it's so much faster. Totally agreed, especially for the increased action economy - especially for a magus using spell combat. True strike gives a greater bonus to a more versatile range of things, but requires me to blow a spell and an attack for one effect. Blade lash lets me blow a spell for an immediate effect, then attack anyway as a separate deal!
claudekennilol wrote: Yeah, that would work, until the guy on the ground realizes he's a high enough level with enough feats and BAB to just kill you while still prone. Even without reach or ranged weapons? They could throw something at us, I'd imagine, but are there other things they're able to do? Keep in mind that we'd be using Long arm to all have a 10 foot reach.
Drevek wrote: Our two buddies have blade lash prepared as a ready action if either of the two try to get off the ground.If they attempt to stand, we target all four of our attacks of opportunity at the same guy we already stabbed if possible, then the ready actions kick in and they get tripped again. Again, I would advise you to be cautious. I remember seeing a thread about tripping somebody that is trying to stand. Basically from what I gathered from the thread is that the AoO triggered when somebody tries to stand up is resolved before he is up. The conclusion was something like : he tries to stand uo, AoO triggers (interrupt the standing action)and you make trip attack, if successful it practically has no effect because the opponent is already prone. Then he resumes his action and stand up.
actually, heres the FAQ:
FAQ
However, since you indicated that you were taking a ready action instead of an AoO, I would recommend that you base your ready action on the fact that it triggers "as soon as the enemy is up standing" as opposed to "trying to get up"... A small detail, but could be an important one if you get a picky GM....
Cuttler wrote: Drevek wrote: Our two buddies have blade lash prepared as a ready action if either of the two try to get off the ground.If they attempt to stand, we target all four of our attacks of opportunity at the same guy we already stabbed if possible, then the ready actions kick in and they get tripped again. Again, I would advise you to be cautious. I remember seeing a thread about tripping somebody that is trying to stand. Basically from what I gathered from the thread is that the AoO triggered when somebody tries to stand up is resolved before he is up. The conclusion was something like : he tries to stand uo, AoO triggers (interrupt the standing action)and you make trip attack, if successful it practically has no effect because the opponent is already prone. Then he resumes his action and stand up.
actually, heres the FAQ:
FAQ
However, since you indicated that you were taking a ready action instead of an AoO, I would recommend that you base your ready action on the fact that it triggers "as soon as the enemy is up standing" as opposed to "trying to get up"... A small detail, but could be an important one if you get a picky GM....
Thanks for the pointer! I was going to edit my question but apparently I can't do that. :(
no....i think you got one hour to edit your comment....ah welll....
:-)
Yeah, PF is set up to make it quite hard to stun-lock or trip-lock someone.
Also, against people 8 levels up from you, I wouldn't bet on this tactic. A level 9 fighter with normal gear has enough AC and HP that he doesn't worry about your AoOs. All he needs to do is crawl 5ft (provoking), then make an attack that at -4 is still likely to auto-hit and drop you.
Drevek wrote:
Thanks for the pointer! I was going to edit my question but apparently I can't do that. :(
you're completely fine how you worded your question. You can 100% and totally do what you asked. You said that they have readied actions to trip him if he stands up which is not the same as an attack of opportunity.
Attacks of opportunity trigger on pre-defined conditions for anyone nearby whether our not they've used up their standard action. Your two allies are specifically holding their action until the guy stands up so they're setting up their own trigger. (And can still make attacks of opportunity)
Does blade lash provoke an attack of opportunity when cast from a wand and used against an adjacent enemy? One of my players likes placing a wand of blade lash into his weapon with weaponwand. I believe he does provoke an AoO but I feel like it could go either way. It does say the combat maneuver attempt is part of casting the spell. Since casting a spell from a wand does not provoke an attack of opportunity would it not provoke one. Also it's not a ranged attack just a melee attack with very long reach
1) Casting a spell normally provokes.
2) Making a trip attempt normally provokes.
If you cast Blade Lash carelessly and then try to trip someone carelessly, you'll provoke twice, which someone with Combat Reflexes could take advantage of.
If you use a wand to cast, you won't provoke. But a magus should use the Wand Wielder arcana otherwise he can't do that with Spell Combat. This takes care of the #1 AoO.
The #2 AoO still remains, even if the spell doesn't provoke; it's a separate provocation. The obvious ways to avoid it are of course:
- Use Blade Lash from a distance. There's a reason it gives you 20ft reach. An enemy can't make AoOs against you if he can't reach you.
- Learn Improved Trip.
Ascalaphus wrote: 1) Casting a spell normally provokes.
2) Making a trip attempt normally provokes.
If you cast Blade Lash carelessly and then try to trip someone carelessly, you'll provoke twice, which someone with Combat Reflexes could take advantage of.
If you use a wand to cast, you won't provoke. But a magus should use the Wand Wielder arcana otherwise he can't do that with Spell Combat. This takes care of the #1 AoO.
The #2 AoO still remains, even if the spell doesn't provoke; it's a separate provocation. The obvious ways to avoid it are of course:
- Use Blade Lash from a distance. There's a reason it gives you 20ft reach. An enemy can't make AoOs against you if he can't reach you.
- Learn Improved Trip.
That's what I was thinking. Wand means no AoO for casting. Since he doesn't have improved trip he provokes AoO is what I was telling my player. Thanks for the reply.
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