Is Dimensional Assault an actual charge?


Rules Questions

1 to 50 of 65 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Grand Lodge

6 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

I know there are a lot of threads about the Dimensional feats out there, but I didn't find a clear answer to a question I have. The wording of Dimensional Assault is:

As a full-round action, you use abundant step or cast dimension door as a special charge. Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge.

This seems to say two different things. First, it is a "special charge", and I'm not sure what that means. Second, it allows a teleport and the ability to make the "attack normally allowed on a charge" -- which isn’t a charge..it’s a teleport and an attack. So, is Dimensional Assault considered a charge?

Two reasons why this matters in my current situation (GMing a Seeker party for PFS):

1. If it isn’t actually a charge, then all of the items, feats, etc. (ex: Belt of Thunderous Charging) that are affected by charge actions don't apply, and the charge to-hit bonus / AC reduction don't apply either. This interpretation makes logical sense to me because Dimensional Assault doesn't have any forward momentum associated with it. (I know that logical doesn't always equal RAW -- which matters, since this is PFS).

2. Specifically, this has come up with Pummeling Charge, which states that the Pummeling Strike attack is made as part of a charge action. If Dimensional Assault isn't a charge, you can't do Pummeling Charge with it. With a retrain at level 12, the combination of Dimensional Assault and Pummeling Charge is extremely powerful.

Thanks!

Liberty's Edge

As I read it, it is not a charge, so magical items and other things related to the charge action (included the to hit bonus/AC malus) don't work, but it allow all the attacks that can be made when using the charge action, so it allow pounce and attacks allowed by Pummeling Charge.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Generally when the text says 'as an X' it really means it; for example - "A monk can make a flurry of blows as a full attack action".

You could argue it either way really, but if it wasn't a charge why would they have even brought that word up in the first place? Why not just say "...you use abundant step or cast dimension door to teleport up to double your current speed... and to make an attack"? It's a shorter sentence that way. Anyways I've always seen it as starting to charge, teleporting, and smashing into the target charge-style but that's me.


I'm with BadBird. It's a charge. It's special because you can't normally charge using dimension door. This feat is you having learnt how to build/maintain momentum while 'porting.


Do all those "items, feats, etc." affect the "attack allowed on a charge?"


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yeah calling it a special kind of charge and intending it to not benefit from any of the things that affect charges sounds pretty derpy to me.

Liberty's Edge

PRD wrote:
Benefit: As a full-round action, you use abundant step or cast dimension door as a special charge. Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge.

For feats the main things to check are the benefit and, if present, the normal rows.

What it say us:
- it is "a special charge" (and that is pretty indefinite in his meaning)
- it allows you "to teleport up to double your current speed and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge"

For it mean that you move up to twice you speed and then get all the attack allowed in a charge (pounce, pummeling charge, etc.). It don't say that you get the other benefits and drawback of a charge.

Let' see what happen if you read it the other way and treat it as a charge.

The most limiting requirement to make a charge?

PRD wrote:
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.

If Dimensional assault is a charge it is subject to the same limitations. So you can't use it to get behind an opponent (for flanking purposes), bypass a chasm or an elevation change or a wall and so on, bypass a enemy or ally that is in your path.

To me that seem to defeat the benefit of using this feat to attack someone. If you are limited by the same things that limit a charge I see very few advantages in using the feat instead of a regular charge. sure , you would avoid a few AoO, but it is enough?


It bypasses those because it is a 'special' charge. You're using Dimension Door or Abundant Step to teleport to your intended target, and wallop them, as opposed to closing the intervening distance normally. So, yes, that thirty foot chasm between you and them means exactly nothing.

Liberty's Edge

Nocte ex Mortis wrote:
It bypasses those because it is a 'special' charge. You're using Dimension Door or Abundant Step to teleport to your intended target, and wallop them, as opposed to closing the intervening distance normally. So, yes, that thirty foot chasm between you and them means exactly nothing.

Not if it is a charge.

You want to argue that being a "special charge" mean that it is a charge when it is useful for you, but mean that it is not a charge when it is an hindrance for you?


If you don't ignore that limitation, what's special about the charge? That you need to cast a spell to use it? What's the up side of using that spell if not bypassing obstacles?

I mean, it could be that it's only good for evading AoOs but that's a pretty weak ability then.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Nocte ex Mortis wrote:
It bypasses those because it is a 'special' charge. You're using Dimension Door or Abundant Step to teleport to your intended target, and wallop them, as opposed to closing the intervening distance normally. So, yes, that thirty foot chasm between you and them means exactly nothing.

Not if it is a charge.

You want to argue that being a "special charge" mean that it is a charge when it is useful for you, but mean that it is not a charge when it is an hindrance for you?

It is a charge. It's a charge where you teleport. This isn't that hard to explain. It's simple. I'd like to ask what the point of the feat is besides style points if it doesn't overcome the normal limitations of movement on a charge.

Liberty's Edge

[qyite=PRD]Benefit: As a full-round action, you use abundant step or cast dimension door as a special charge. Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge.

The benefit row is very clear: You move up x2 your current peed and make the attack normally allowed on a charge.

I fail to see where it say: "you get all the benefits and drawback of a charge".
You guys are adding something that isn't in the text of the feat.


Yeah, you only get to make the attack at the end of the charge (or in case of pummeling charge or pounce, attacks). So why would you get the drawback of not being able to charge through obstacles? Where do you get that from?


The attack normally allowed on a charge is indeed a charge attack and would follow all the rules and penalties enumerated under 'attacking on a charge section' in pathfinder. The character making it would gain the quasi-condition of 'charging'.

The 'Movement During a Charge' section is of the charging rules is superseded because this feat (and the spell) have specific rules for movement that override the general rules for both movement and charging movement.

Liberty's Edge

Dave Justus wrote:

The attack normally allowed on a charge is indeed a charge attack and would follow all the rules and penalties enumerated under 'attacking on a charge section' in pathfinder. The character making it would gain the quasi-condition of 'charging'.

The 'Movement During a Charge' section is of the charging rules is superseded because this feat (and the spell) have specific rules for movement that override the general rules for both movement and charging movement.

Point me to the piece of the feat that say that. You either are using an ability that do exactly what the feat say you do, allowing the attack that are allowed at the end of a charge, without any other drawback and benefit or you get the full package, as it is a charge and it should follow all the limitations of a charge. You don't get to chose, "I pick this unmentioned benefit, I lose this unmentioned drawback and I pick two of those benefits as they are neat."


It's the "attack normally allowed at the end of the charge". You have to be functionally dyslexic or intentionally ignorant to not understand that it gets the usual benefits of a charge, since it is the attack at the end of a charge.

But sure, go on arguing that the feat basically does nothing. I'm pretty sure anyone reading the thread can make an informed decision about how the feat should work that way.


The rules for charge have specific benefits and penalties for the attack at the end of a charge. I don't see how the feat could be clearer.

If they didn't apply, it would just be an attack, rather than specifying that you get the attack at the end of a charge.

As for ignoring the conditions for movement, it is fairly obvious when the move ability is spelled out in the feat that you use those, instead of normal charge movement.

That is the entire idea of what the feat does, it allows you to cast a spell giving you special dimensional movement and charge with that dimensional movement instead of regular movement.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

It is a charge because the rules say it is a charge. Since it uses magic it bypasses the restriction that charges usually have. Otherwise it would not have been called a charge. Now maybe someone wants to argue that the devs used bad language, and the ability needs errata, but understanding how it works is not really all that difficult. I don't see what the confusion is about.

Liberty's Edge

Wraith, it don't say that it is a charge. it say that it is "a special charge".
What is a special charge? Undefined.

If it is a charge it work like a charge in all respects.
If it his kind of action it work as his description say ti work, and it description say: "Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge."

No mention of any other effect of a charge. No mention of any bother benefit or drawback of a charge.

It is very simple:

- if it is his kind of action it has the limitations that are born from the step you take making the action, i.e. using abundant step/dimension door to move, attacks allowed at the end of a charge.

- if it is a charge it must respect the charge rules.

You want to read more into the feat description, but it say exactly what you can don do. Wanting it to do something different don't change the feat text.


Diego,

In your interpretation, is their any difference between what you believe it says and if it said it without referencing charge at all? For example it didn't say it was a 'special charge' and if it just gave you an attack, rather than 'an attack normally allowed at the end of a charge'?

If their is no difference, do you have any explanation for why the charge term was used?

Liberty's Edge

Dave Justus wrote:

Diego,

In your interpretation, is their any difference between what you believe it says and if it said it without referencing charge at all? For example it didn't say it was a 'special charge' and if it just gave you an attack, rather than 'an attack normally allowed at the end of a charge'?

If their is no difference, do you have any explanation for why the charge term was used?

Attacks allowed at the end of a charge and available in Ultimate combat:

Pounce, bull rush.
Attacks not allowed on a charge: ranged attacks, most combat maneuvers.

It is a way to limit what attacks you can make.

If it allowed "an attack" I could fire a bow, make any combat maneuver and so on. I couldn't make a pounce attack.

Now it allow Pummeling charge as it say:

Pummeling Charge (Combat)
Benefit: When using Pummeling Style, you can charge and make a Pummeling Style attack at the end of your charge as part of the charge action.

a attack specifically allowed at the end of a charge.

On the other hand it will not activate Rhino Hide as it require a charge attack, something that you aren't making.

@LoneKnave
Avoid insulting people.


Yes, you are making a charge. Look at the Feat, for heaven's sake. It even SAYS you are making a charge. Dimensional Assault lets you teleport to them and attack with a charge. That's what makes it special. You don't charge them normally, you magically appear in a charge at them.

Grand Lodge

Wow, this turned into something bigger than I expected (as OP). I'm OK with the general consensus that Dimensional Assault is a charge.

As GM, I'm thinking about what I can do to stop this extremely powerful combination (of Dimensional Assault and Pummeling Charge).

A couple of ideas:

1. The defender can brace a weapon and ready for when the attacker appears. Since it's a charge, the brace should be fully effective.

2. The defender can ready a bull rush. If successful, the attacker would lose his/her attack entirely since they can't move or 5' step after the teleport. (This wouldn't work, though, against a regular charge if the attacker had more movement.) Downside is that the attacker trades this for other attacks that round...and the bull rush would still have to succeed.

Is there anything else a reasonably intelligent defender can do?

(And as a note -- this combination is so powerful because it means that the attacker can do a Pummeling Style attack every single round, regardless of starting location!)


I think there is a fighter archetype that can brace as an immediate action. One of the polearm archetypes.

There is also a feat, Teleport Tactician I think, that grants an AoO against teleporters.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Qualify the statement that they can do this every round until they run out of available teleports and it becomes somewhat less so.


As an aside, this is a tremendous feat investment, so if you shut a player who is doing this down don't do it too often because, if you do, they may as well not have feats.


It costs the Monk 2 Ki every time they do this trick, so, on top of a SIGNIFICANT investment of Feats, it's burning through their very limited power source.

Lantern Lodge

Or a Magus a 3rd/4th level spell slot (depending on if your samsaran raiding the summoner list or not).


Diego Rossi wrote:

Wraith, it don't say that it is a charge. it say that it is "a special charge".

What is a special charge? Undefined.

If it is a charge it work like a charge in all respects.
If it his kind of action it work as his description say ti work, and it description say: "Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge."

No mention of any other effect of a charge. No mention of any bother benefit or drawback of a charge.

It is very simple:

- if it is his kind of action it has the limitations that are born from the step you take making the action, i.e. using abundant step/dimension door to move, attacks allowed at the end of a charge.

- if it is a charge it must respect the charge rules.

You want to read more into the feat description, but it say exactly what you can don do. Wanting it to do something different don't change the feat text.

Are you nitpicking because you don't like it?

I see no reason to think the devs would call it a "charge" at all if they did not intend for it to benefit from things that a normal charge benefits from.

I agree that it must deal with the -2 to AC unless otherwise specified. I think the teleportation aspect gets around the restriction of going in a straight line because you dont use extraplanar travel in a straight line at all, and obstacles really don't matter.

They did not want to do a line by line reprint of the charge rules so they printed enough to make it make sense.

Liberty's Edge

wraithstrike wrote:


Are you nitpicking because you don't like it?

No, I am nitpicking because I like it and don't like people trying to get from a feat more than it do.

The devs didn't call it "a charge", they called it "a special charge".

@Skilmar
Normally you can take a 5' move after using dimensional assault (if you haven't already taken a 5' step).
The prerequisite is Dimensional Agility that allow you to take your actions after moving.
Dimension door isn't a form of movement, so it don't block you from taking a 5' step.

Naturally, if you think it is a regular charge you can't take a 5' step. But that is under "Movement During a Charge" and we return to my basic argument. Why you think you would be subject to only that limitation and not the other limitations set under that header?


Diego Rossi wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


Are you nitpicking because you don't like it?

No, I am nitpicking because I like it and don't like people trying to get from a feat more than it do.

The devs didn't call it "a charge", they called it "a special charge".

@Skilmar
Normally you can take a 5' move after using dimensional assault (if you haven't already taken a 5' step).
The prerequisite is Dimensional Agility that allow you to take your actions after moving.
Dimension door isn't a form of movement, so it don't block you from taking a 5' step.

So how would they have to have written it for you to consider it to be a charge and work like many people here say it works?

Liberty's Edge

PRD wrote:
Benefit: As a full-round action, you use abundant step or cast dimension door as a special charge. Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge.

Not a native English speaker, so it is a tentative version:

"Benefit: As a full-round action, you use abundant step or cast dimension door to make a charge. Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability). This charge will not be subject to the movement limitations listed under Movement During a Charge"

(I have added something to the post above yours too)


Fair enough. I read what you added, but it seemed to be directed at another poster. Was there something you wanted me to answer also?


I think the "not subject to movement limitations" is covered by "allows you to teleport."

Liberty's Edge

Let's try to see what change if we treat dimensional assault as a charge:

PRD wrote:

Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.

If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.

You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

1) "You must move before your attack, not after." No discussion there, this limitation stay.

2) "You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed". Again no problem I think. Using DDoor or dimensional step shouldn't allow you to charge (and pounce) a target 5' from you.

3) "directly toward the designated opponent." No problem, but you must designate your target when you declare your charge, so you must designate your target when you start your dimensional assault too?
It seem reasonable.

4) "If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1." You are teleporting, not moving, so you can't draw a weapon.

5)"You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles)." One of the obstacles I see to the "it is a charge" interpretation. If we treat Dimensional assault as a charge there is no text in the feat that say that this don't apply. But let's say that using a form of teleportation bypass the obstacles. It is the first BIG difference between dimensional attack and a normal charge.

6) "You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent." If it is a charge you must abide to this limitation. Again, no text in the feat allow you to bypass this limitation if you are making a charge.
No easy flanking from the feat.

7) "If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge." Ouch, that would heavily restrict the use of dimensional assault.
But if you are charging that is what charging say.

8) "If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge." Again, using teleportation should remove that problem.

9) "If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent." As you should select the target of your charge at the start of your full round action that limitation should stay for dimensional assault too.

10) "You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge." If it is a charge, it apply. Even if you haven't moved but teleported.

11) "If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn." No partial dimensional assault, AFAIK.

To me it seem that you lose more than you gain from treating it as a charge.


Except you can ignore all that because you are teleporting. Then you make "the attack normally allowed on a charge." You get +2 to your attack and -2 to your AC.


I think this has gotten entirely over-complicated and over-analysed...

The rules for making a charge as a full-round action come in two distinct headings: 1)Movement during a charge, and 2)Attacking on a charge.

Dimensional Assault, listed as a 'special' charge, 1)gives its own special dimension door movement rules, and then 2)refers to making a charge attack. The obvious, easy interpretation is that you use the special dimension door movement rules and then apply the normal charge attack rules. It really couldn't be more simple. Rummaging around in the original charge movement rules when they aren't cited and are obviously replaced seems odd to me.

As far as whether it's a 'charge' or not, it says that it is in black and white. A 'special' charge is still a charge, in the way that 'special' sauce is still sauce, or a 'red' shirt is still a shirt. I could go into the dictionary definition of special but I doubt that's a productive use of time.

Pummeling Charge will not work with Dimensional Assault simply because Pummeling Charge only works when you use a full-round action to activate Pummeling Style first.


Diego Rossi wrote:

Wraith, it don't say that it is a charge. it say that it is "a special charge".

What is a special charge? Undefined.

What the rules mean when they say it is "a special charge" may not be spelled out in complete rigor, and you'll have to fill in some of the stuff such as ignoring intervening terrain with common sense, but it seems to me that it would take quite a creative reading to conclude that they mean it is "not a charge."

Liberty's Edge

BadBird wrote:


Dimensional Assault, listed as a 'special' charge, 1)gives its own special dimension door movement rules, and then 2)refers to making a charge attack.

No, it say: " and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge. ", not "a charge attack". The second is a specific kind of action.

Go back a few years and read all the stuff about attack action and making an attack.
Making a charge attack is different from making the attacks allowed on a charge.

Liberty's Edge

Coriat wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

Wraith, it don't say that it is a charge. it say that it is "a special charge".

What is a special charge? Undefined.
What the rules mean when they say it is "a special charge" may not be spelled out in complete rigor, and you'll have to fill in some of the stuff such as ignoring intervening terrain with common sense, but it seems to me that it would take quite a creative reading to conclude that they mean it is "not a charge."

Rad the big post and explain how being a special charge change how the "movement during a charge" work for dimensional assault.

What limitations are removed and what limitation stay?
What benefits and penalties are removed and what benefit and penalties stay?

It is like spellcombat. The initial ruling was that it is not a full attack but his kind of action. Only after much debate it was changed to the current FAQ.
Without a very specific FAQ this ability fall in the same category. An action that is very similar to the charge action but is not the charge action.


Diego Rossi wrote:
BadBird wrote:


Dimensional Assault, listed as a 'special' charge, 1)gives its own special dimension door movement rules, and then 2)refers to making a charge attack.

No, it say: " and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge. ", not "a charge attack". The second is a specific kind of action.

Go back a few years and read all the stuff about attack action and making an attack.
Making a charge attack is different from making the attacks allowed on a charge.

If it's not a charge though, wouldn't it have made more sense (be less confusing and save on word count) to just say, '...and make an attack.'

It is definitely a charge and charge attack. Now we could argue about whether you need a clear path to the target or not, but arguing that it isn't a charge...


Diego Rossi wrote:
Coriat wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

Wraith, it don't say that it is a charge. it say that it is "a special charge".

What is a special charge? Undefined.
What the rules mean when they say it is "a special charge" may not be spelled out in complete rigor, and you'll have to fill in some of the stuff such as ignoring intervening terrain with common sense, but it seems to me that it would take quite a creative reading to conclude that they mean it is "not a charge."

Rad the big post and explain how being a special charge change how the "movement during a charge" work for dimensional assault.

What limitations are removed and what limitation stay?
What benefits and penalties are removed and what benefit and penalties stay?

It is like spellcombat. The initial ruling was that it is not a full attack but his kind of action. Only after much debate it was changed to the current FAQ.
Without a very specific FAQ this ability fall in the same category. An action that is very similar to the charge action but is not the charge action.

Not the same. Spell combat is "...As a full-round action...", which is very different than saying it is a "special full attack". Special full attack would have been more accurate in line with the latest FAQ. That is it is a full attack, but is special in that you can cast a spell as part of that full attack and has some other limitations (all your attacks must be made with your one specific weapon).

Liberty's Edge

let's see an alternate wording of the feat that would have made your interpretation right and would have been way easier to write:

"When charging instead of moving you can use dimension door or abundant step to teleport up to twice your current speed while avoiding and bypassing intervening obstacle."

Simple and straightforward. You are charging, so the normal rules for charging apply but it explicitly say that you avoid intervening obstacles.

Probably that is the RAI of the feat and it would reply very well to the OP question, but it isn't the RAW of the feat.


Diego Rossi wrote:

No, it say: " and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge. ", not "a charge attack". The second is a specific kind of action.

Go back a few years and read all the stuff about attack action and making an attack.
Making a charge attack is different from making the attacks allowed on a charge.

A 'charge attack' is *not* an action; it's part of a full round action called a charge. Just like how the 'attack normally allowed on a charge' is part of the full round action used for Dimensional Assault. Saying that an attack 'normally allowed on a charge' isn't the same thing as an attack allowed on a charge is... well draw your own conclusions, this has just gotten silly.


Diego Rossi wrote:

let's see an alternate wording of the feat that would have made your interpretation right and would have been way easier to write:

"When charging instead of moving you can use dimension door or abundant step to teleport up to twice your current speed while avoiding and bypassing intervening obstacle."

Simple and straightforward. You are charging, so the normal rules for charging apply but it explicitly say that you avoid intervening obstacles.

Probably that is the RAI of the feat and it would reply very well to the OP question, but it isn't the RAW of the feat.

I agree. It would have been nice to have "special charge" defined. But given a pretty clear RAI, I find no value in arguing for a strict reading of RAW except to say, "Ok, this is technically RAW. Great, noted. Now ignore it and go with the RAI." (Course PFS that's a lot harder to pull off...)

Liberty's Edge

bbangerter wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
BadBird wrote:


Dimensional Assault, listed as a 'special' charge, 1)gives its own special dimension door movement rules, and then 2)refers to making a charge attack.

No, it say: " and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge. ", not "a charge attack". The second is a specific kind of action.

Go back a few years and read all the stuff about attack action and making an attack.
Making a charge attack is different from making the attacks allowed on a charge.

If it's not a charge though, wouldn't it have made more sense (be less confusing and save on word count) to just say, '...and make an attack.'

It is definitely a charge and charge attack. Now we could argue about whether you need a clear path to the target or not, but arguing that it isn't a charge...

Already replied to that one. you have a reply to that post?

Liberty's Edge

bbangerter wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Coriat wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

Wraith, it don't say that it is a charge. it say that it is "a special charge".

What is a special charge? Undefined.
What the rules mean when they say it is "a special charge" may not be spelled out in complete rigor, and you'll have to fill in some of the stuff such as ignoring intervening terrain with common sense, but it seems to me that it would take quite a creative reading to conclude that they mean it is "not a charge."

Rad the big post and explain how being a special charge change how the "movement during a charge" work for dimensional assault.

What limitations are removed and what limitation stay?
What benefits and penalties are removed and what benefit and penalties stay?

It is like spellcombat. The initial ruling was that it is not a full attack but his kind of action. Only after much debate it was changed to the current FAQ.
Without a very specific FAQ this ability fall in the same category. An action that is very similar to the charge action but is not the charge action.

Not the same. Spell combat is "...As a full-round action...", which is very different than saying it is a "special full attack". Special full attack would have been more accurate in line with the latest FAQ. That is it is a full attack, but is special in that you can cast a spell as part of that full attack and has some other limitations (all your attacks must be made with your one specific weapon).

And Dimensional Assault is a full round action, not a charge.

PRD wrote:
Benefit: As a full-round action, you use abundant step or cast dimension door as a special charge. Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge.

Liberty's Edge

BadBird wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

No, it say: " and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge. ", not "a charge attack". The second is a specific kind of action.

Go back a few years and read all the stuff about attack action and making an attack.
Making a charge attack is different from making the attacks allowed on a charge.
A 'charge attack' is *not* an action; it's part of a full round action called a charge. Just like how the 'attack normally allowed on a charge' is part of the full round action used for Dimensional Assault. Saying that an attack 'normally allowed on a charge' isn't the same thing as an attack allowed on a charge is... well draw your own conclusions, this has just gotten silly.

Vital strike again?

No really, what I see are arguments that have failed in the past with vital strike, spellcombat and so on.

A attack normally allowed in a charge is saying: 1 single melee attack, of a bull rush or a pounce. There can be other attacks allowed in a charge with special abilities.
But being limited to the attacks allowed with a charge don't make your action a charge.

You are twisting my words to change the statement.
I am saying:
being able "to make the attack normally allowed on a charge" =/= making a charge

That normally can be even more limiting that my position. What is meant with normally? What is spelled out under the charge chapter? Or it include the benefits of other feats and abilities?

You say:
"Just like how the 'attack normally allowed on a charge' is part of the full round action used for Dimensional Assault."
Well, you aren't using the full round charge action, but the full round Dimensional Assault action. So what is triggering the other charge effects beside the "attack normally allowed on a charge"?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Diego... please stop. You have to literally ignore how English works to come to the conclusion you are coming to. A special charge is defined by the feat, but it doesn't matter if its not defined really because you can eliminate the prefix "special" and still have a working sentence. If you take charge out of the sentence, it ceases to be a sentence altogether.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I read the big list of things, I still don't see anything in there that justifies reading

Diego wrote:
it say that it is "a special charge"

as "it is not a charge."

1 to 50 of 65 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Is Dimensional Assault an actual charge? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.