Wizard vs. Army


Advice

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Here's the setup: There are two forces, an aggressor and a defender. The aggressor has a single army of around 10,000 soldiers and is marching on the capital of the defender's country. The defender has a total force strength of about 50,000 spread out among several armies on the opposite side of the country. It's a race to the capital! Despite being outnumbered, the aggressor has an ace in the hole: The aggressor army has a 20th level wizard. So without having to consider acting as a counter to any arcane spellcasters on the defender's side, what kind of tricks can the Wizard pull to aid her forces? Couple of caveats, though:

1. The goal of the aggressor is to win the war with as few casualties as possible on both sides. So directly attacking the enemy armies with stuff like Metor Swarm, Tsunami, and other similar spells is off the table unless it's absolutely necessary.

2. No assassinations. If necessary, the aggressor has this avenue covered through other means.

That in mind, here's what I've come up with so far:

-Using Control Weather to delay defending armies from reaching the capital before the aggressor, or using it to manipulate battlefield conditions to the benefit of the aggressor.

-Using wall spells (mostly Wall of Fire) to create favorable battle conditions.

What else can a wizard do to stack the deck in her side's favor, both during and outside of the battle?


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Race to the Capital? At just 10,000 Soldiers the wizard can probably use Gate to just march the army directly into the Capital before the Defenders even realize that there is an Aggressor Army.

From there various Enchantment spells should ensure that leaders of the Defender nation all surrender peacefully.

If it somehow came to battle, I've sure a few well placed Fear inducing spells should be enough to quickly break defender moral before any serious bloodshed can happen.


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You are thinking much too small for a 20th level wizard.

Timeless demiplane + simulacrum + blood money.

Gate or planar binding plus geas (or just standard negotiation).

Scry, Teleport to throne room, peristent dominate or wish geas.

Teleportation circle to bring the entire army to the capital on day 1.


Calling/use gate to get disruptive outsiders to act as guerrillas that delay the enemy troops.

Symbol of strife- get that into the middle of an enemy formation, and they will fight among themselves. This means 20 rounds enenmies attacking eachother, and the symbol lasts for over 3 hours. This can be used as a trap that blocks off enemy movement (since they can't bring a large number of troops into the area).

Cursed earth to cause any who die in the area to rise as zombies in 24 hours. Even if they destroy the bodies to prevent this, that is still time they are not preparing proper defenses.

Salvage- destroy their ships, and then make them your own later on.

Clone- get back up commanders for your armies. Helps maintain the chain of command, which helps keep up momentum.

Sympathy/Antipathy on particular areas (like castle gates) that distracts them.

Stone to flesh- turn the castle wall into something that is much easier to dig through.

Move earth- dig trenches and make hills. Destroy trenches and hills. Fill in moats. This spell is pretty much designed with your scenario in mind (too slow to trap or bury, and explicitly says it is for this stuff)

Anyway- I think thinking small is cooler. Having an instant solution just takes the fun out of it. Rather than instantly capturing the king, I want a chess game where my opponent can just decide that I can't move through a 9 square square because a giant pillar of fire showed up. That my bishop now moves like a rook because of mind alteration. That there is now a tunnel to the back that I have to defend against. That his knights are flying for the next 3 turns and can't be captured (but can't capture themselves).

All that, and a lot of the move egregious instant 'I win' scenarios might have counters with magic (there are a bunch of anti teleporting spells, for instance). Overall, just assume rule of cool, and try to get tricky people.


Hark wrote:

Race to the Capital? At just 10,000 Soldiers the wizard can probably use Gate to just march the army directly into the Capital before the Defenders even realize that there is an Aggressor Army.

From there various Enchantment spells should ensure that leaders of the Defender nation all surrender peacefully.

If it somehow came to battle, I've sure a few well placed Fear inducing spells should be enough to quickly break defender moral before any serious bloodshed can happen.

Unfortunately even multiple Gate spells don't last long enough to march an entire army through. Gotta remember that the 10,000 soldiers doesn't count the baggage train accompanying them. You'd also need two Gate spells to complete the transport.

I thought about mind control, but I've played role-playing games long enough to know that using it for things like that never works out in the long run. On the other hand, using enchantment spells to alter the course of a battle (by making commanders make bad tactical decisions) is a possibility...

I've looked at various fear-type spells, but most I've seen don't have a large enough area of effect to make a significant impact, in my opinion. Furthermore the ones I looked at are centered on the caster, and the aggressors are uncomfortable with putting the wizard right in the middle of the battlefield like that.


Blakmane wrote:

You are thinking much too small for a 20th level wizard.

Timeless demiplane + simulacrum + blood money.

Gate or planar binding plus geas (or just standard negotiation).

Scry, Teleport to throne room, peristent dominate or wish geas.

Teleportation circle to bring the entire army to the capital on day 1.

Teleportation Circle won't work. It could get the soldiers there, but not the baggage train.

Blood Money doesn't exist in my game, but a demiplane isn't completely out of the question. How could it be used?


lemeres wrote:

Calling/use gate to get disruptive outsiders to act as guerrillas that delay the enemy troops.

Symbol of strife- get that into the middle of an enemy formation, and they will fight among themselves. This means 20 rounds enenmies attacking eachother, and the symbol lasts for over 3 hours. This can be used as a trap that blocks off enemy movement (since they can't bring a large number of troops into the area).

Cursed earth to cause any who die in the area to rise as zombies in 24 hours. Even if they destroy the bodies to prevent this, that is still time they are not preparing proper defenses.

Salvage- destroy their ships, and then make them your own later on.

Clone- get back up commanders for your armies. Helps maintain the chain of command, which helps keep up momentum.

Sympathy/Antipathy on particular areas (like castle gates) that distracts them.

Stone to flesh- turn the castle wall into something that is much easier to dig through.

Move earth- dig trenches and make hills. Destroy trenches and hills. Fill in moats. This spell is pretty much designed with your scenario in mind (too slow to trap or bury, and explicitly says it is for this stuff)

Anyway- I think thinking small is cooler. Having an instant solution just takes the fun out of it. Rather than instantly capturing the king, I want a chess game where my opponent can just decide that I can't move through a 9 square square because a giant pillar of fire showed up. That my bishop now moves like a rook because of mind alteration. That there is now a tunnel to the back that I have to defend against. That his knights are flying for the next 3 turns and can't be captured (but can't capture themselves).

All that, and a lot of the move egregious instant 'I win' scenarios might have counters with magic (there are a bunch of anti teleporting spells, for instance). Overall, just assume rule of cool, and try to get tricky people.

Ooo, forgot about Move Earth. That could be a handy spell.

I should probably have mentioned that most of this stuff would happen off-screen. It's somewhat of a thought-exercise as this war is something that will be occurring in the background of the campaign and the PCs will mostly just be getting accounts of what's happening as they're unlikely to participate in any large-scale battles directly.


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Xexyz wrote:
Blakmane wrote:

You are thinking much too small for a 20th level wizard.

Timeless demiplane + simulacrum + blood money.

Gate or planar binding plus geas (or just standard negotiation).

Scry, Teleport to throne room, peristent dominate or wish geas.

Teleportation circle to bring the entire army to the capital on day 1.

Teleportation Circle won't work. It could get the soldiers there, but not the baggage train.

Blood Money doesn't exist in my game, but a demiplane isn't completely out of the question. How could it be used?

With demiplane, you could put a large amount of supplies that that are secure. That can help reduce your need for a supply train, which means you can travel light and fast.

Also, if you make it a minor positive dominant plane, then you can give any creature fast healing 2 while in the plane. That can turn it into a medic station. Who needs clerics to serve as healbots? This is fast, efficient, and uses minimal resources.

Plus- everything is just plain better on a positive energy plane- brighter colors, warmer fires, all sensations are more intense (better food; better...company... yeah, you could have that going on in a demiplane). Great for morale.


lemeres wrote:
With demiplane, you could put a large amount of supplies that that are secure. That can help reduce your need for a supply train, which means you can travel light and fast.

That's a possibility. I'll have to think about the logistics of it, but I think something like that is doable.

Edit: Actually, now I'm not so sure. The condition for adding the portal feature to a demiplane is that the portal's location must be "very familiar to you", and with the army on the move I don't think that would work.

Another thing I probably should've mentioned is that strategies which involve long-term involvement of the wizard in question will probably not be employed; the army's commander doesn't want to become dependent on the wizard for her army's success.


Xexyz wrote:
lemeres wrote:
With demiplane, you could put a large amount of supplies that that are secure. That can help reduce your need for a supply train, which means you can travel light and fast.

That's a possibility. I'll have to think about the logistics of it, but I think something like that is doable.

Edit: Actually, now I'm not so sure. The condition for adding the portal feature to a demiplane is that the portal's location must be "very familiar to you", and with the army on the move I don't think that would work.

Another thing I probably should've mentioned is that strategies which involve long-term involvement of the wizard in question will probably not be employed; the army's commander doesn't want to become dependent on the wizard for her army's success.

So a 20th level wizard's services come at a premium, either in money or the threat of giving him influence. Cool, fair enough.


Xexyz wrote:


Teleportation Circle won't work. It could get the soldiers there, but not the baggage train.

Utter wash. Greater teleport:

"You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as four Medium creatures, and so forth.

Teleport circle handily gets rid of any size and number worries.

You can't take wagons, but donkeys loaded up with supplies works just fine. Who cares anyway? You're already in the city walls and have all the supplies you can't carry right there available for you.

You could also just either planar bind or even just summon some gigantic creatures (celestial rocs are obtainable en masse) and then send them through the circle with the supplies.

This debate is a moot point. Teleportation circle easily transfers all the soldiers to the capital, although you may need to prepare a few of them to get adequate flow.


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Google Tippyverse?


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Blakmane wrote:

Utter wash. Greater teleport:

"You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as four Medium creatures, and so forth.

Teleport circle handily gets rid of any size and number worries.

You can't take wagons, but donkeys loaded up with supplies works just fine. Who cares anyway? You're already in the city walls and have all the supplies you can't carry right there available for you.

You could also just either planar bind or even just summon some gigantic creatures (celestial rocs are obtainable en masse) and then send them through the circle with the supplies.

This debate is a moot point. Teleportation circle easily transfers all the soldiers to the capital, although you may need to prepare a few of them to get adequate flow.

I don't think you quite grasp the scale we're dealing with here. I've been doing some research, and according to what I've found the column for a Roman army of approximately 5000 soldiers could be up to 15 miles long. The army I'm dealing with is twice as big. I did some math and getting the soldiers teleported could be done in a day, but the baggage train is another matter all together. That doesn't even take into account the logistics in finding a suitable destination (inside the city? lol) and the advance planning required to make sure the arriving army remained organized on arrival.

If I needed to get the army to the other side of the world, teleportation circles might merit further consideration. But the army just needs to get 450 miles, which when coupled with Lord's Banners of Swiftness is about 15 days march.

Anyway, I'm not so much concerned about getting the aggressor army to the capital faster so much as how the wizard can mess with the defending armies.

Silver Crusade

intensified, maximized, quickened delayed fireballs+ time stop. + metor.

"oh, there was an enemy army?"


Xexyz wrote:
Blakmane wrote:

Utter wash. Greater teleport:

"You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as four Medium creatures, and so forth.

Teleport circle handily gets rid of any size and number worries.

You can't take wagons, but donkeys loaded up with supplies works just fine. Who cares anyway? You're already in the city walls and have all the supplies you can't carry right there available for you.

You could also just either planar bind or even just summon some gigantic creatures (celestial rocs are obtainable en masse) and then send them through the circle with the supplies.

This debate is a moot point. Teleportation circle easily transfers all the soldiers to the capital, although you may need to prepare a few of them to get adequate flow.

You... You really haven't thought these ideas through, have you?

Care to give some actual rebuttal?


Blakmane wrote:
Care to give some actual rebuttal?

I edited my flippant response, check out my previous post.


rorek55 wrote:

intensified, maximized, quickened delayed fireballs+ time stop. + metor.

"oh, there was an enemy army?"

Doesn't work as well as you would think. A wizard is a bit like a machine gun in the field. Yeah he can work the nastiness but if you leave him on full auto he's out of ammo in under 3 minutes.

threads for thought:
1
a
square
fish

Variable names were chosen at random off the top of my head (but the threads are real and really good reads).

¬

Sovereign Court

In my Kingmaker game, the PCs used Control Water on an army encamped near a river and it worked out quite well for them. Not a ton of casualties, but a lot of their camp and gear was wrecked, and since the attack happened in the middle of the night, morale was pretty ruined for all the soldiers in damp clothes.

For a 20th level guy, though? Geeze... Overwhelming Presence cast on anybody important seems good - it simply won't do to have your enemy's generals bowing profusely to the mighty wizard.

Alternately, Summon Monster IX may be for only 20 rounds (3 min 40 sec), but that's quite long enough for some creatures to win your army a battle decisively. Ice Devils have at-will Cone of Cold, Ice Storm, and Wall of Ice; Trumpet Archons can fly 90 ft per round and throw out DC19 paralysis saves for everyone within 100 ft; and Glabrezus have Reverse Gravity (14 10ft cubes) at will. Oh look, 3 of your most important units got lifted up 30 ft in the air; those make great archery targets, don't they? Or just make 1d4+1 Rocs and let them go to town for a few minutes.

Or, just, y'know, start sending out Demands...


Let's have a look using the rules. The spell for reference:

Spoiler:
Teleportation Circle

School conjuration (teleportation); Level sorcerer/wizard 9

Casting Time 10 minutes

Components V, M (amber dust to cover circle worth 1,000 gp)

Range 0 ft.

Effect 5-ft.-radius circle that teleports those who activate it

Duration 10 min./level (D)

Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes

You create a circle on the floor or other horizontal surface that teleports, as greater teleport, any creature who stands on it to a designated spot. Once you designate the destination for the circle, you can't change it. The spell fails if you attempt to set the circle to teleport creatures into a solid object, to a place with which you are not familiar and have no clear description, or to another plane.

The circle itself is subtle and nearly impossible to notice. If you intend to keep creatures from activating it accidentally, you need to mark the circle in some way.

Teleportation circle can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent teleportation circle that is disabled becomes inactive for 10 minutes, then can be triggered again as normal.

Magic traps such as teleportation circle are hard to detect and disable. A character with the trapfinding class feature can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 34 in the case of teleportation circle.

The spell doesn't specify if you can send through more than one group per round, but let's assume we only send one group so that things don't pile up too much on the other side. That's a decent compromise I think.

The basics:

The spell has a radius of 5ft meaning we can send our army through in groups of 4 every 1 round. The spell takes 10 minutes to cast, and the wizard has 4 castings assuming he isn't a conjuration specialist. For each casting, the circle lasts 200 minutes. This gives us 800 minutes of total circle time over a period of 4 hours. We can permanency these circles, but as you will see we don't need to (although doing so gives us practically infinite leeway).

Getting the soldiers through:

You can move 4 soldiers through at a walking pace every round for every circle. Four columns, four soldiers wide moving 5ft in 6 seconds (less than a crawling pace) is hardly difficult to achieve. 800 minutes is 8000 rounds, for a total of 32,000 soldiers moved through in four hours. We can actually accomplish what we need with two teleportation circles and leave two 9th level spells open! More realistically, this huge overestimation ensures that we get plenty of time regardless of unforeseen consequences. It is unlikely things will go so smoothly, but even at third efficiency we still move all of our men through in a single day with room to spare for our supplies.

Supplies:

Let's remember that, if we aren't teleporting into the city directly, past the first few hundred our soldiers don't need to be battle ready straight away. Each soldier is carrying a backpack with supplies. This isn't likely to last more than one day - but we will be assaulting the city that day with overwhelming force (and a wizard capable of opening the gates for free via stone shape assumedly). Sacking the city for supplies is the ultimate plan. We can move our horses and pack animals through the circles but again, you'll see we don't need to.

Let's be safe! Our wizard prepares summon monster XIII and XII four times each. This gives him a total of 4 + 4d3 celestial rocs - even at minimum that is 8 rocs. The wizard has prepared ant haul in 8 1st and 2nd level slots, and casts ant haul on the turn the roc appears. The trickiest thing is getting speak with animals: the wizard can summon a lillend with summon monster XI to accomplish this, or if he has UMD just procure a 1st level druid scroll.

We make time to do this after we have decided sufficient troops have been moved through, using telepathic bond to communicate between the two sides of the portal and ensure areas have been cleared and marked for the supplies. Each roc can carry 28,800 lbs at maximum load, but let's assume 25,000 lbs or ~11,000 KG to be safe so we don't accidentally overburden them. Each roc lasts two minutes.

Round one: summon monster
Round two: Cast ant haul, command roc to pick up bundled supplies. roc uses turn to pick up supplies.
Round three: Command monster to move into portal and gently place supplies on marker ('big red patch' or something similarly easy for the roc to understand). Monster moves into teleporter and is teleported. We begin summoning next roc.

In total, this method allows us to move 200,000 pounds or 88,000 KG of material through the portals in the space of several minutes. Each soldier needs about 10 pounds of food and water to survive for one day. thus, with our rocs alone we can ferry enough food and water through for the army to survive for several days, and we can repeat the procedure in subsequent days as necessary to move additional supplies through.

Final thoughts:

Yes, the logistics of this setup are complicated and risky - but even if everything doesn't go according to plan, you can just redo the same plan every day. We have 15 days to spare and could even set up two sets of two teleportation circles to ferry supplies back and forth on the second day if we really wanted to - or just permanency two sets of circles and not have to worry, although this is expensive.

As you can see, teleportation circles are more than enough to move this army through with an incredible amount of leeway for delays, unforeseen circumstances and supply needs.

After doing this, the wizard can mess with the armies at his leisure knowing the capital has already been taken. You did say it was a 'race to the capital' and the idea was the get the aggressor to the capital first.


I would assume the identity of the leaders of the opposing armies. Disrupt the change of command.

Silver Crusade

Hallucinatory terrain and Veil will both do good service here.

In general, a 20th level wizard who isn't blasting (and even one who is) isn't going to do too much against that 40,000 man discrepancy in power.

Even spells like mass bears endurance aren't going to help with the number of allies he has either.

Waves of exhaustion might be useful for slowing any enemy that gets near as exhausted troops will need to rest before being able to pursue quickly. Similarly, the wizard could use illusion spells and/or false reports to make people believe someone already is in the capital.

I'm kind of mystified that someone would commit to war when they were outnumbered five to one, wizard or no wizard.

Sovereign Court

I would use gate or planar bidding to summon an outsider who can cast 9th level cleric spells and have him cast the only spell which matters in situation like this:

Cast cursed earth all over the enemy country. It's dirty and shameless, you should really feel bad for doing it. It's a horrifying spell, with terrifying implications, hopefully your Wizard is not a "good" guy, as it will straight up make you evil.


Eltacolibre wrote:

I would use gate or planar bidding to summon an outsider who can cast 9th level cleric spells and have him cast the only spell which matters in situation like this:

Cast cursed earth all over the enemy country. It's dirty and shameless, you should really feel bad for doing it. It's a horrifying spell, with terrifying implications, hopefully your Wizard is not a "good" guy, as it will straight up make you evil.

It seems to that the OP want to get the country with as few damages as possible. So your plan May not be good no matter aligntment of the involved.


If you are simply racing to the capital, a high level wizard can disrupt any path to the capital for opposing armies. A few bridges burned down, a few dams broken, even a few fields flooded at key intersections can hamper enemy movement for long enough. He never has to get seen by the opposition.


What I'd probably do is have the wizard Gate or Teleport some elite soldiers into the enemy's security apparatus.


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Create greater demi plane twice two get to gates. The first is at the aggressor army, the second at the capital.

This works even better then the teleportation circle. Wagons can easily fit through the gate and it is now just a matter of marching 1/10 of mile instead 450.

Create a simulacrum of a genie. Have it create 3 more. In less then a day you can have 20k genies and they grant every solider +6 to all stats.

Dominate/charm/copy a great wyrm red dragon an use his at will wall of fire from beyond arrow range to burn up the defending army.

Any outsider with greater teleport can drop rocks on the defending army from a mile up.

Convert the wizards items to cash and it is enough for 30K troops. Just buy half the enemy army.


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Why are you bothering with armies and whatnot?

Just have the wizard take this city by himself.


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Bargain/deal with powerful other plane entities. Either to take out leaders or slow down the incoming armies for at least 7 days and the army has to be weaker than when it started.

Elementals/monsters/demons into the opposing baggage train and sleeping encampments.

Summoned earth and water elementals to flood the routes take down bridges.
Summoned fire and air elementals to create forest fires on approach routes.

Various symbols on approach routes.

Walls of stone, sleet/volcanic storm on bridge or in mountains.

Xexyz wrote:

...

Teleportation Circle won't work. It could get the soldiers there, but not the baggage train.
...

If you get the army there instantly and quickly take over, you don't need the baggage train!


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Mind control. Even if you use "rule of narrative" to say it won't be a permanent fix, as a 5th level spell you're all-but guaranteed to be able to take over ALL the major players long enough to win the battle. But let's go further, let's assume that the COUNTRY has a permanent protection from evil spell effect via a mythal or something, and assassination isn't allowed because reasons.

You can get your entire army and establish a nigh-unbreakable supply chain in 1 day. This is established upthread. You can assault the capital from inside (there will, guaranteed, be at least one mostly-empty building you can do your work in, invisible wizard scout for the win), you can take the city.

But we want to bring the body count down as low as possible, and I'm feeling creative.

Step 1: Wizard uses divination magic and teleportation to find and collect a sample of Brown Mold. He uses resist energy: cold to protect himself.

Step 2: She proceeds to grow several large "seeds" which are brown mold sealed in a glass container which is surrounded with alchemist's fire.

Step 3: While flying, invisible, and still resistant to cold she drops these fire-and-ice containers over a darkened and sleeping city. As the panicked residents try to fight the brown mold with their bizarrely well-read knowledge of obscure dungeon hazards she helps foster mold growth with walls of fire, summoned fire creatures, and the occasional meteor swarm. Every time it takes fire damage it grows, so the brown mold will rapidly spread to cover the city.

Step 4: Once the entire city is covered in Brown Mold and unconscious, with enough non-lethal damage to keep them out for hours (the cold damage is non-lethal) she brings in her team of cold-resistance-equipped specialists (preferably monks, but warriors with longstrider will do) to hunt down any hiding opposition and capture any major figures.

Step 5: Since apparently the sun no longer kills the mold (if it ever did), she casts control weather and makes the air cold enough to do actual damage, instantly killing all the mold. She then casts control weather AGAIN to warm things up before all the bodies in the streets and homes also freeze to death.

Step 6: Some people may still die of exposure, but most folks will simply be unconscious, and with the army immediately moving in and collecting the unconscious citizens it should take little time for the 10k-strong army to collect them all, move them into warm, comfy, easily-sealed common buildings. Soldiers are placed in prisons, all weapons are collected, the army spends several days gently sacking the town, collecting the people, and making sure they're all fed and nursed back to health.

Step 7: Hypnotism, charm person, diplomacy checks made by planar-bound outsiders will work on and convert most of the enemy into accepting (if not actually liking) the new power structure within a week or two. Spell-work will be focused on the malcontents, soldiers, and leaders as the peasantry won't actually CARE most of the time. After a week or so the city should be fairly well-controlled and presumably the rest of the enemy armies will be at the gates. Take note: this is not mind-control, this is diplomacy being given a boost by magic. Even Charm Person is only used as part of getting characters to listen to something more convincing (like hypnotism or diplomacy checks). There may also be some executions, but always after a big show trial and often with alternatives offered (exile to a demiplane, converting, etc.)

You aren't conquering their minds, you're changing them. And since you are a 20th level wizard you can actually PROVE your case of "serving me is better" by using Fabricate, Create Demiplane, and other utility magic to make the city a nicer place to live.

Step 8 is diplomacy. The King has already signed a treaty and a proclamation demanding the surrender of the outside forces. The 10k (plus any converts) army holds the capital. VERY FEW people have actually been killed so far (so no "revenge" impetus) and Ms. Wizard has slyly mentioned that this was a LOT harder than just raining fire down upon the enemy and killing them all. Chances are good most of the nobility and their soldiers will bend knee and cut a deal rather than fight.

Now you have captured a country with minimal bloodshed. Congratulations.


If you take the city in a single day, you don't really need a supply train. You have the city. You have everything you need. All you need is the soldier and their gear.

There is no need for a supply or baggage train. That was to give the soldier a place to sleep and hold their weapons and armor and other supplies while they were on the move. There is no "moving" here.

You are at the battlefield. You either win or die. No need for supplies. And if there is, you will have time after you have taken the city to get the supplies in. It's not as though it needs to be there the moment you invade the city.


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sunbeam wrote:

Why are you bothering with armies and whatnot?

Just have the wizard take this city by himself.

Well, I am not familiar with the set up, but I can imagine a few reasons why.

Maybe this wizard is a contractor instead of an actual part of the country/army. Maybe he is a political power in his own right (not uncommon for level 20 wizards) and he expects a heavy price for his services. Powerful wizards are also often known for having.... difficult... personalities.

Using the flashy and direct magics (particularly when they put him in the line of fire, or have him directly responsible for the damage, which puts the spot light on him when it comes time for revenge) comes with a large price. Do you honestly want to owe someone that powerful a favor? That is a good way to become a puppet nation.

With this kind of set up, you can have the wizard shaping the battle field in your favor, but it still comes down to your loyal troops doing the actual acts.

Liberty's Edge

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Merciful Spell (Metamagic)
Your damaging spells subdue rather than kill.
Benefit: You can alter spells that inf lict damage to
inf lict nonlethal damage instead. Spells that inf lict
damage of a particular type (such as fire) inf lict
nonlethal damage of that same type. A merciful spell
does not use up a higher-level spell slot than the spell’s
actual level.

This way those high level Damaging spells at level 20 still kick much butt and leave all aggressors/Defenders alive, but likely very very unconscious best of all it sends the message. "yes I could have killed you all, but I decided not too" pretty big Intimidation Factor that likely leaves all but the most Steel Nerved defenders ready to fight

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The real challenge of a puzzle like this would be how low a level a wizard can you need to be to pull this off? (20th level does make things like this way too easy, in the absence of any credible threat from a city mage of close level, or a GM willing to be properly strict on magic shenannigans.)

Keep in mind that armies who end a conflict without massive direct bloodshed have to stop fighting for a REASON. England didn't end it's participation in the war against the American Revolution because of the overwhelming force of Washington's army, the participation of France made the conflict too costly to continue if it meant weakening forces that might be needed to deploy against France elsewhere.

If you're looking to take a city there are only two conventional methods, direct assault and reduction of the city defenses, or you starve the city out by siege which can take a certain amount of time, hoping against hope, the city does not receive reinforcements from elsewhere. Which would put you right in between a hammer and an anvil.

Otherwise victory for each side depends on removing the other side's ability or will to fight.

The only way to win such a fight quickly, is through covert operations, which means the most effective way to use a wizard in this faction is as the backer of a team of elite operatives. If assassination is for some strange reason ruled out, the next choice is reconnaissance and sabotage.

(If I was commander of the city's defenses, I'd order my watch to shoot down any flying animal approaching the city as well as any out of place land animals they spot. This would not be my only precaution.)


Once you have your army behind the walls. all you would have to do is weed out the malcontents and patriots.


Illusions can be very useful with little to no impact on the country.

Major flash brush fire.

Creepy haunting shadowy illusions.

Another, secondary army approaching another objective.

All illusions that if done right and with some minor support can have a major impact. Even if they know illusions are being used.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matt2VK wrote:

Illusions can be very useful with little to no impact on the country.

Major flash brush fire.

Creepy haunting shadowy illusions.

Another, secondary army approaching another objective.

All illusions that if done right and with some minor support can have a major impact. Even if they know illusions are being used.

Many of those options however require you to be fairly close, within casting range at the very least. Not many wizards get to be 20th level by consistently putting themselves at hte front line of conflicts. Of course if the example presumes that you're the only wizard in play, and everyone else is a bunch of commoners, go right ahead!


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LazarX wrote:
Matt2VK wrote:

Illusions can be very useful with little to no impact on the country.

Major flash brush fire.

Creepy haunting shadowy illusions.

Another, secondary army approaching another objective.

All illusions that if done right and with some minor support can have a major impact. Even if they know illusions are being used.

Many of those options however require you to be fairly close, within casting range at the very least. Not many wizards get to be 20th level by consistently putting themselves at hte front line of conflicts. Of course if the example presumes that you're the only wizard in play, and everyone else is a bunch of commoners, go right ahead!

Why isn't your 20th level wizard using astral projection to do this from his safety bunker?


Whoa, a lot of responses.

1. There are two reasons the aggressor wants to minimize casualties. First, the aggressor intends to rule the country afterward - and in the process make the defender's armies their own. Since the war is effectively a civil war (a coup d'état technically) if the aggressor decimates the defender's armies too much it leaves the country vulnerable to being invaded. Secondly, the aggressors are positioning themselves as the liberators who are disposing the current tyrant usurper king, so if they're going to claim the moral high ground they can't just slaughter all of the opposition.

2. It's not that assassination is off the table, it's that the aggressors have another operative to handle that sort of business if/when it's necessary.

3. It's important that the wizard operate with some subtlety. If the wizard is too blatant in her actions, then the defenders' focus shifts from "how to we deal with this aggressor army" to "how to we deal with this wizard" The commander of the aggressor army wants the defenders' focus to be on her army, not on her wizard ally. From the wizard's perspective, she'd also like to avoid becoming the prime target.

4. In regard to the capital, the plan is to send an advance force to seize control; the aggressor absolutely does not want to be forced to lay siege to it in order to capture it. The plan is for the assault to take place in three stages: Stage 1 is for an elite strike team (likely the PCs) to infiltrate into the palace and capture the king. With the king out the way, stage 2 will be to have an advance force eliminate the remaining ruling structure and in the process take control of the city. Stage 3 occurs once the main army arrives and it able to march through the city with the majority of any opposition neutralized and then prepare for an engagement with the defending army outside of the city. The level of organization the defending armies display will guide how the aggressor responds.


Xexyz wrote:

...

First, the aggressor intends to rule the country afterward - and in the process make the defender's armies their own.
...

This is fairly close to impossible. There are very few circumstances where a conqueror can rely on the loyalty of the armies of the person he defeated.

Xexyz wrote:

...

Since the war is effectively a civil war (a coup d'état technically) ...

A civil war and a coup are really not at all the same thing.

Xexyz wrote:

...

The plan is for the assault to take place in three stages: Stage 1 is for an elite strike team (likely the PCs) to infiltrate into the palace and capture the king. With the king out the way, stage 2 will be to have an advance force eliminate the remaining ruling structure and in the process take control of the city. Stage 3 occurs once the main army arrives and it able to march through the city with the majority of any opposition neutralized and then prepare for an engagement with the defending army outside of the city.

Your stage 1 will pretty much guarantee that the defending armies will always see the PC's and the aggressor leader as the enemy and a usurper.

Stage 2 and 3 will just set that in stone.

I think the only way to get what you describe as wanting for the eventual result is a real coup d'état. Which pretty much doesn't involve large military engagements. That would be something like framing the prior ruler for some traitorous crime and showing the new ruler to be the savior of the country that is holding of the hordes of invading villains invited by the prior evil king.
The classic marrying the princess. Then oops the king fell down the stairs and broke his neck.
Or even becoming the controlling regent for a minor holding the throne.

I think the best method for getting the process you are describing is to mess with the travel of the defending armies. Things like illusions, floods, confusion of orders, bad directions, missing bridges, officer insanity, destroying/spoiling baggage train, etc...


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Claxon wrote:

If you take the city in a single day, you don't really need a supply train. You have the city. You have everything you need. All you need is the soldier and their gear.

There is no need for a supply or baggage train. That was to give the soldier a place to sleep and hold their weapons and armor and other supplies while they were on the move. There is no "moving" here.

You are at the battlefield. You either win or die. No need for supplies. And if there is, you will have time after you have taken the city to get the supplies in. It's not as though it needs to be there the moment you invade the city.

... said no general ever.

You need those supplies and they will probably be in use even before the battle starts. Even if you take the town you are going to need those supplies. Most towns/cities don't have a standing pool of supplies to simply start hosting an additional 10k people in them, and even if you do you won't win yourself any friends simply grabbing what you need from the city in this fashion. The only reason you would do this is if you are raiding for the purposes of looting and destroying.

Never leave your supply train unprotected/ without its army


Thoughts of Actions:

Shadow Conjuration like spells for summon monsters. They'll be weaker and do less damage but will slow the army down.

Antipathy on the road aimed at the horses. Forces the troops to really have to fight to take the easy way.

Sympathy on the more difficult terrain to make them want to take the harder way.

Control weather for rain and such to slow down travel.

Waves of exhaustion/fatigue -- this requires you to be closer but will help slow/stop the army from moving as they are always just so tired.

Scintillating patterns would another nice "trap" spell.

Fear -- if you have a unit or so running away all of a sudden you have to collect them and then get moving again.

Project Image -- again something like another army to slow them down and get them thinking weirdly -- more effective if used on the scouts.

Waves of Ecstasy - basically the same as waves of exhaustion/fatigue

Rampart -- block the road makes them move different than they wanted to.

Move Earth was mentioned before.

Shape of the Dragon 3 -- just fly overhead. Spook them nothing else.

Permanent Image -- As project image

Glyphs and Wards -- fog, lots of fog, and wind, and confusion, and suggestions to turn around

Rock to Mud -- difficult travels.

Stone Call -- not at them just in the way


ElterAgo wrote:
This is fairly close to impossible. There are very few circumstances where a conqueror can rely on the loyalty of the armies of the person he defeated.

The aggressors have a few things going for them on this front. For starters, the current king - who is only the current king because he killed all of the other remaining claimants to the throne as the culmination of a 3+ decade long civil war - is very unpopular. In the seven years of his reign he re-instituted the outlawed custom of hereditary debt-slavery, then decided to rebuild the kingdom's treasury by instituting a bunch of new, oppressive taxes (the proceeds of which have a poor rate of actually making it to the treasury due to the rampant corruption of the aristocracy/bureaucracy). As that's failed to generate sufficient income, the king then decided to start an unpopular war by invading a wealthy neighboring country to plunder it. (That's why the defending armies are on the other side of the country - most of them are actually currently participating in the invasion.)

The principals behind the aggressor army are a group of nobles who claim - and now, due to the actions of the PCs, have a macguffin to help support their claim - to have in their ranks the true, rightful heir to the throne. So certainly they don't see themselves as conquerors; they're true patriots who are liberating the country from an illegitimate despot.

ElterAgo wrote:
A civil war and a coup are really not at all the same thing.

You're right. It would be more accurate to say that the aggressors are hoping for a successful coup in order to avoid [another] civil war.


Xexyz wrote:
ElterAgo wrote:
This is fairly close to impossible. There are very few circumstances where a conqueror can rely on the loyalty of the armies of the person he defeated.

The aggressors have a few things going for them on this front. For starters, the current king - who is only the current king because he killed all of the other remaining claimants to the throne as the culmination of a 3+ decade long civil war - is very unpopular. In the seven years of his reign he re-instituted the outlawed custom of hereditary debt-slavery, then decided to rebuild the kingdom's treasury by instituting a bunch of new, oppressive taxes (the proceeds of which have a poor rate of actually making it to the treasury due to the rampant corruption of the aristocracy/bureaucracy). As that's failed to generate sufficient income, the king then decided to start an unpopular war by invading a wealthy neighboring country to plunder it. (That's why the defending armies are on the other side of the country - most of them are actually currently participating in the invasion.)

The principals behind the aggressor army are a group of nobles who claim - and now, due to the actions of the PCs, have a macguffin to help support their claim - to have in their ranks the true, rightful heir to the throne. So certainly they don't see themselves as conquerors; they're true patriots who are liberating the country from an illegitimate despot.

ElterAgo wrote:
A civil war and a coup are really not at all the same thing.
You're right. It would be more accurate to say that the aggressors are hoping for a successful coup in order to avoid [another] civil war.

Ok, that makes it at least in the realm of possible. Still the armies are supporting the bad guy. There is very little way you can trust those armies. I suppose if you assume the are all/mostly conscripts serving against their will and the new guy purges the officers. But that's probably about the best you could realistically hope/plan for.

Then I really wouldn't use the aggressor army for much of anything. Any invasion will just generate ill will from the populace. Even a relatively 'clean' invasion always wipes out huge swaths of civilians.

Some very small elite fast moving units to help the PC's decapitate the bad regime. But the only real use for the rest would be diversions, collapsing bridges, sneaky raids, and stuff to slow down the returning armies. All of which can probably be done better by the wizard. But the army could do the same for less critical spots or when the wizard is busy elsewhere.


Teleportation Circle.

You don't need supplies, you use the capital's supplies.
Everyone teleports straight into the capital where all the head officials have been dominated to prevent a proper response.


Rhedyn don't make me repeat myself.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Rhedyn don't make me repeat myself.

So all you have to do then is have a few soldiers ferry supplies while the capital is being held. You don't need the carts by any stretch of the imagination.

You could also protect the supplies with a few bound outsiders (who are probably stronger than the army).


Dominate the opposing general and have him surrender.

Liberty's Edge

Illusions and conjuration, Illusionary foes and Summoned monsters into the area give the army a reason to come in and 'save the day' on their way towards the main strong hold and also create a more heroic view of the army. Add in Silent and still spell and no one will know the wizard is summoning these threats, real ones for the opposing army and illusionary ones for those commoners forced to fight for their king in towns with no real enemy force.

This creates a feeling of comfort from these "benevolent" men and women. Not to mention if they couldn't take the enemy force they saw at the time, they could mysteriously look like a similar regiment of soldiers from the same country at the time to get by.


@Abranham Spalding, if this were a conventional war I would agree. The use of exceptional magic negates this necessity. When I can later gate in the supplies a few hours after the initial conflict with low risk there is no need to have them present in the beginning.

It is also viable to take what you need from the city, assuming you don't care extensivelya bout the city. No matter what the aggressor is going to do in thissituation, the people will not be happy with him invading. Taking their resources from them really doesn't make it any worse.

This is not conventional warfare.


plague storm

use create greater undead to make a bodak, unleash it a nearby village the army will march through in a few days, watch as the infantry turn into bodaks.

Use a greater metamagic rod of widen spell to cast teleportation circle, at 20 feet diameter that should get you to move all the carts and elephants and siege engines or whatnot you need.

Fly, greater invis, and a couple Tsunamis will likely crush any large encampments.

Gate for the best dragon the wizard qualifies for will also do the trick.

A level 20 wizard can destroy any large army made up of mostly grunts in an afternoon.

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