Hello Paizo people! As my dreams of Theurgehood have been soundly dashed by the recent SLA ruling, I would like to look into how I could transfer a concept I was working on for Pathfinder Society Core Campaign over to another class chassis. Originally I was planning to make a Necromancer Mystic Theurge that threw their wealth by level into animating a shambling horde of servants, and then turning them into bombs with casts of Explosive Runes.
I think this is still doable on a straight Wizard but I'd like to get some advice from the community. I'm undecided between building it as a "normal" Wizard (maximized INT, dumped CHA) and ignoring the Necromancy school's ability to Command Undead, and simply casting the Command Undead spell instead; alternatively I could build it more like an Arcanist and just give myself minimum INT to cast my spells, and be able to leverage the Necromancy school's power more ably.
Are there any incentives to have a high CHA as a Core Wizard, like for example the ability to take Eldritch Heritage in non-Core? Other than having a higher-than-average ability to UMD, Diplomacy, Bluff, etc. in Core due to the lack of traits to base those skill checks on INT.
Are there any Cleric spells that are so helpful to the concept that it would be worth being able to UMD them? I'm utterly unconcerned with throwing all of my wealth by level at consumables, as there's no Staff of the Master to save up for and few items I can see myself wanting beyond basic CON boosters and Pearls of Power.
As far as thematic choices, I see this character as being a Dark Archivist basically no matter what route I choose in life. This is potentially convenient since I believe there is a faction trait for Dark Archives that gives UMD as a class skill.
Thanks in advance for any advice! Can you all think of other interesting things to "dress up" my zombies with beyond Explosive Runes?
Since I want to be very dedicated to the Necromancy theme this avenue represents a cheap source of undead minions without being reliant upon the scenario to provide. I'm unsure as to what animals are available for purchase but I know at the very least Horses are an option. Does anyone think I'll run into issues at any tables with this approach?
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I would recommend reading this excellent PFS Necromancer Guide. While it is not written for core mode, much of it is applicable and good for inspiration.
The CHA is very worthwhile, as Command Undead takes enemies and makes them your fodder for the remainder of the adventure without using spell slots. It also allows you to use diplomacy and bluff, which are very important in PFS.
My first PFS wizard is a Diplomancer with +40 in Diplomacy without taking any extra effort to buff as of his retirement at level 12, so I'm totally down with Diplomacy on my wizards. I'm just curious if there are other feats or features where a high CHA would be helpful.
For example, I might not want to ban Enchantment so I can take advantage of Charm Person which a normal Wizard would not be able to do; additionally at very high levels I could potentially Planar Bind to gain a new source of minions.
EDIT: ShakaUVM's guide is awesome and I like the anecdotes scattered throughout it, definitely makes you want to play a Necromancer. However some of the guide isn't applicable, for example Shaka's desire to deliver touch spells through his familiar. I feel if I'm going to have a lower INT and little ability to penetrate SR without access to Dweomer's Essence, Piercing metamagic, etc. I'd be better off with an Arcane Bond.
Are there any Core items that are worth setting as my Bond other than the Ring of Invisibility?
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The problem for you in PFS CORE, just like for all necromancers in PFS, is that the undead that you create will not exist between sessions, which means for at least the first combat, you will have no bodies to animate into your bombs. And especially if you end up in a non-combat-heavy scenario, you might have to take the enemies alive and things like that to fulfill your mission objectives.
Even if you can find bodies to animate right away at the start of a scenario, you're going to be spending all of your gold on onyx stones to use in your animate dead spells.
There's no way to keep bones of dead creatures between scenarios or anything fun like that either. I just don't see it as being terribly viable, unfortunately.
Cartmanbeck, please check the spoiler in my original post for an idea of how to begin the scenario with corpses to animate by throwing money at the problem. I am also 100% okay with single-handedly funding the Golarion onyx mining industry.
I would also be fine with suggestions for helping my allies efficiently convert monsters into corpses if I lack any minions at the time. I'm confident in the abilities of a straight Wizard with a backpack full of scrolls to excel at any scenario even if his statistics are not great and his primary shtick is unavailable, as well.
Drogos, I'm not excited about Necromancy spells specifically (i.e. the brand of Necromancy that "Bad Touches" living creatures) but more of the idea of animating the dead and using them for interesting purposes.
I think that even with a minimized casting statistic the ability to carry around a library of scrolls, purchase Pearls of Power, have an Arcane Bond and a school specialization should give me enough spell slots to get through the day, so it's just a matter of finding spells that require save DCs that I'm interested in casting.
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Fair enough, you can buy animals and kill-then-raise them, but I know that if you were at my table, and you had brought a pack of horses along with you on the mission specifically to slaughter them and cast animate dead on them, I would consider it an alignment infraction even for a CN character. I'm sure I'm not the only GM who would do so.
The best way to make this happen without consistantly needing Atonement spells, I think, would be to make sure that you have a really REALLY good Handle Animal check, and send the poor horse into the first battle you have at every scenario, hoping to have it killed right away.
Note that it would count as your one "combat companion" for the scenario, so you'd get just one shot at the start of the scenario, then you'd have to make use of enemy bodies afterward.
but I know that if you were at my table, and you had brought a pack of horses along with you on the mission specifically to slaughter them and cast animate dead on them, I would consider it an alignment infraction even for a CN character
Cartmanbeck, that is indeed why I put it under a spoiler musing on if it could be considered an alignment infraction. I think my character has a pretty good in-game justification for purchasing animals specifically to kill and raise them, as a True Neutral necromancer, but I understand some GMs could be uncomfortable with the idea.
Nonetheless, since as far as I'm aware undead are not considered to be in the same category as an animal companion as far as designating a single combat pet for the scenario, I feel that as long as the GM did not feel it was an alignment infraction I would be fine to kill them myself. It actually sounds a little crueler to do as you're suggesting which is literally just try to get the horse killed in battle, to be frank.
Once I hit level 9 I should be able to Lesser Planar Bind creatures and use their bodies to create undead; I doubt any GM is going to get too hung up on the ethical ramifications of killing fiends to raise them as zombies, beyond the usual ramifications of creating undead in the first place.
Well, Animate Dead is a 4th level spell. I'm not sure what you're going to be doing with your spell slots level 1-3, especially if you plan on being a Necromancy specialized wizard
Oh, totally! I'm not sure easier, that's why I was asking for advice on it. But seeing as Core is a wealth of unexplored potential and there are infinite modules to play and GM again, if I want to I can get to level 7 much more quickly than I could in the existing campaign. By all means I'd like to figure out a plan until my shtick comes online, though.
Starting at level 5 I can cast Lesser Animate Dead, which is not nearly as potent but should be able to get me started.
I'd still suggest having INT be your focus and just a decent CHA. Of course, have fun playing whatever you decide, but you did ask for advice.
Well, I'm predisposed toward the idea of a CHA-focused build because I think it would be amusing to play a ruthless Gnomish Dark Archivist Wizard, but I'm totally willing to rethink things if there isn't enough incentive to go CHA-based. Hence my curiosity in terms of feats, spells, etc. that can use CHA, beyond just skill checks and the Command Undead channeling, which no one has had any thoughts on thus far. I'm a game designer and I greatly enjoy optimization, but I enjoy optimizing concepts that are less workable just as much as I like options that are baseline-strong, if that makes sense.
Thank you to those that have pitched in so far!
Here's a question-- are "variant undead" still able to be created in Core with the full Animate Dead spell? E.g. fast zombies, bloody skeletons, burning skeletons, and so on. I'm not sure what if any of those templates are Core.
Bump for interest on my most recent query.
Also, if I go Gnome I could have the following stat array: 5 / 7 / 15 / 16 / 8 / 20. I'm literally carrying nothing other than scrolls and maybe a rod, although I do think it'd be ironic if I managed to die to a Shadow attacking me. Since I'm not investing in initiative and Mirror Image is still a spell in Core I'm unworried about low DEX. Gnome gives a +2 Perception bonus and Wizard provides a good Will save to offset the WIS loss, and Gnome gives a +1 to save DCs on Illusion magic which means Silent Images and Color Sprays will effectively have a DC as if I had 18 INT starting out.
I think the things to ban would therefore be Evocation (not like Emergency Force Sphere exists in Core) and... I'm not sure what to ban other than that. I definitely don't want to ban Illusion; Enchantment is not the strongest but I like the idea of leveraging the very high CHA with Charm spells. Conjuration, Abjuration, and Divination just have a smattering of useful spells.
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Are there any incentives to have a high CHA as a Core Wizard, like for example the ability to take Eldritch Heritage in non-Core? Other than having a higher-than-average ability to UMD, Diplomacy, Bluff, etc. in Core due to the lack of traits to base those skill checks on INT.
Helps you keep the riff-raff in line!
Ha! Well, that's a little harder if I'm playing a Gnome, due to the issues with size differences in Intimidate. I'm also not sure flavorfully if the character in question would ever have enough vehemence to spare to be properly intimidating, though he'd certainly lie or sweet-talk his way to getting what he wants.
I suppose at level 9 onward when I can start Magic Jarring hulking foes the Intimidate checks would get a little more relevant...
Shame I can't Magic Jar any non-intelligent undead I raise, AFAIK. It does sound like an amusing tool to "increase" my HD limit if I manage to Command Undead a mummy or shadow or what have you.
Well, I agree - don't dump your Charisma. No need to crash down your Int (or all your other stats) for it, just get a 12 or 14. 16 as a gnome easy.
Evocation is fun to get rid of as a necromancer. Enchantment is the other easy one, but if you want to keep it, I'd suggest Abjuration and rely on scrolls (1 scroll of 5 resist energy's for 2PA for instance).
However, I must point out, Lesser Animate Dead is not a Core spell. You can buy scrolls of 2 animate dead spells for 2PA (as it's lower as a cleric spell), and have a decent chance of using the scroll (especially with a reroll on hand).
Variants templates (from the Bestiary), are as legal as in Standard. I didn't think they were legal at all, but I'm not an expert on that specifically. I recommend cows
As for an arcane bond, ring of invisibility makes sense.
Oh, and if morals don't bother you, you can always dip Druid to get a free animal once per adventure...
Well, uh, I think a druid who explicitly lures an animal companion into a bond of trust and then kills it off each adventure is a tad worse than just buying a horse at market.
Ahem.
Did not realize the Lesser spell wasn't Core. That makes me sad.
Don't you have to buy things at Wizard prices in PFS? Wizard -> Cleric -> Druid in terms of pricing?
Abjuration could likely be overlooked. I would like to be able to keep some buff spells on hand to ward my allies (living and dead) though, and can't Spell Share to my minions or anything sadly.
I suppose See Invisibility is the only really powerful Divination spell until much higher levels in Core, and could be accomplished with scrolls.
Don't you have to buy things at Wizard prices in PFS? Wizard -> Cleric -> Druid in terms of pricing?
No, it's the lowest of those three, or the lowest of any if not on any of those three lists.
All potions, scrolls, wands, and other consumables are made by clerics, druids, or wizards in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The only exceptions are spells that are not on the cleric, druid, or wizard spell list. For example, a scroll of lesser restoration must be purchased as a 2nd-level scroll off the cleric spell list and may not be purchased as a 1st-level scroll off the paladin spell list. If a spell appears at different levels on two different lists, use the lower level spell to determine cost. As an example, poison would be priced as a 3rd-level druid spell instead of a 4th-level cleric spell. All potions, scrolls, and wands are available only at the minimum caster level unless found at a higher caster level on a Chronicle sheet.
For the sake of simplicity, there is no difference between an arcane and divine scroll or wand. Thus a bard and cleric may both use the same scroll of cure moderate wounds.
Finally, scrolls of spells of 7th level or higher are not permitted for characters below level 12 unless you gain access to them on a Chronicle sheet that specifically lists them.
Speaking of, would being a Cleric be easier and fit your original design (a mystic theurge)?
Oh, radical. Thanks, I did not realize that.
So I considered cleric-hood but there's a few things that stand against being a cleric. One, clerics don't get the Command Undead spell, even with the Death domain. So they can only control undead with the feat, and still need to split CHA with their primary casting statistic. Two, the way things work out Clerics will have a good Will save but will likely have a poor INT. So no skills to supplement their magic. Three, at higher levels (9+) Clerics lack the ability to Planar Bind Outsiders. They can Planar Ally, but it's probably something of a social faux pas to Animate Dead your Planar Ally.
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When I build a Necromancer wizard I tend to start with the Point buy of:
Str: 7, Dex: 13, Con: 13, Int: 19, Cha: 14
I really like the Trait Transmuter but I am not sure about the CORE only rules on traits. After you gain 2nd level spell you can buff your CHA to 18 for better social skills.
At early levels its hard to Command undead with the Channel ability but there is still a possibility of them failing. I ran the Confirmation and got 2/4 zombies when I commanded the undead part and forced them to fight the Minotaur at the end. Made for a good time for the party and at level 1 grabbing 2 zomb+&$~es is still decent. Its a shame that some of the feats to make the ability better like Undead Master are in later books.
Now about your Horse situation. Get a Wand of Mount. Make a Pony and then load it down with your Exploding Runes. Its a summoned Creature and you're not "killing" it. Still kind of fun and sadistic but you can easily argue that its not evil.
I highly recommend you Oppose: Divination and Enchantment.
First Enchantment unless you specialize in it with spell focus and all that you're going to suck at it. Color Spray>Sleep anyways
Second Divination: Yes you have to prepare detect magic in 2 slots. But everything else this school offers can be bought on a scroll and is BETTER on a scroll. Other than See invisibility the Core divination list is kind of Bleh. It is also one of the smallest schools of magic. It's why the Runelords never specialized in it. They all used it but it was not thought worthy of a Runelord or specialization. Too bad Thassilonian Specialist isn't allowed in PFS. I love Gluttony wizards and usually play one when the option is ever open.
There is a boon for Thassilonian Specialist actually, moreover a Core-legal boon. But I digress (and don't have it).
I'm pretty convinced banning Divination is the way to go. Enchantment is likely a better school to ban than Evocation, especially if I invest in Diplomacy and CHA.
I don't really want to spend my actions fruitlessly, is the issue with lower CHA and trying to Command Undead via channeling. At lower levels this will work on basic Zombies and Skeletons but those aren't foes parties particularly have issues destroying. Soon enough channel resistance becomes more common making exceptional DCs a necessity.
The other thing is that channeling to Command isn't "necessary" when the Command Undead spell exists, although in fairness channeling can gain multiple undead allies at a time, and has a good chance of snagging at least one ally vs. large groups of undead (which PFS scenarios often feature).
I do like the idea of higher-than-average CHA making it easy to Planar Bind starting at level 9, especially when boosted with Eagle's Splendor.
Maybe 18 INT and 16 CHA would be sufficient? With a subspecialization in Illusion, putting the free Spell Focus toward it and using the Gnome racial ability that's pretty high DC Color Sprays and Silent Images.
I'd consider that more if it was possible to effectively disguise my undead at lower levels with illusions but I'm not sure it is in Core...
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I don't really want to spend my actions fruitlessly, is the issue with lower CHA and trying to Command Undead via channeling. At lower levels this will work on basic Zombies and Skeletons but those aren't foes parties particularly have issues destroying. Soon enough channel resistance becomes more common making exceptional DCs a necessity.
Why let the group kill them? I much prefer the DM to have to kill off his own creatures. I call them early game fodder. Early game a zombie to walk in front of the group is a great trap detector or threat grabber. Non intelligent things will attack the zombie and give the group time to react. This lowers incoming damage to the group. The power is kind of crap mid to late levels but once you reach the cap stone and Invest gold into you cha abit it really can be a nasty ability again.
Maybe 18 INT and 16 CHA would be sufficient? With a subspecialization in Illusion, putting the free Spell Focus toward it and using the Gnome racial ability that's pretty high DC Color Sprays and Silent Images.
Yes if you can swing it. I told you I like transmuter Trait and I tend to work it like a secondary focus. I never like being a 1 trick pony wizard.
Shadow spells are really nice illusion spells too. Shadow Evocation and Conjuration.
And also I wouldn't worry about disguising your undead. Use them till you need to kill them off and keeping that do-good paladin player off your back. Don't bring the undead into town but if you're moving across country you could just put a blanket over him. Blankets are cheap.
Okay, I can dig it, cannon fodder is fun to get to move actions with. Aid Another or something (mindless creatures can be ordered to Aid Another, yes?).
Corpses are sometimes hard to come by in PFS, alas. Don't want to waste them when I have them, especially since they disappear at the end of the scenario with that gold value expended.
Since the majority of PFS play takes place from levels 1-11, and this character is mostly "online" at 7+ I'd prefer to avoid having a single odd-numbered primary statistic, which will make my level 8 ability point feel a bit wasteful.
In fairness, you get what you pay for. I'm generally pretty dang ecstatic to trade +1 to a couple of skills and a Good save for +1 to my spell DCs and extra bonus spells on any spellcaster not trying to mix it up in martial combat.
I do like the idea of potentially getting to 16 (or 18 even) CON on a d6 caster for a change, to prevent those occasional surprise-round unconsciousness fits that put a damper on some combats.
I ran the Confirmation and got 2/4 zombies when I commanded the undead...
I don't really want to spend my actions fruitlessly, is the issue with lower CHA and trying to Command Undead via channeling. At lower levels this will work on basic Zombies and Skeletons but those aren't foes parties particularly have issues destroying. Soon enough channel resistance becomes more common making exceptional DCs a necessity.
Just a reminder... Command Undead:
...You can control any number of undead, so long as their total Hit Dice do not exceed your cleric level. [Wizard level for Necromancers]So at 1st level, you can't command even one zombie. At higher levels, you don't need the majority to fail, just one or two gets the full effect. So command undead, the spell, for single targets, and Command Undead the feat for multiple targets.
There is a boon for Thassilonian Specialist actually, moreover a Core-legal boon.
If you've earned it with a Core character of course.
Hmm, good point. So a lesser CHA and increased INT may be the way to go. I'm torn on taking Spell Focus: Necromancy in order to boost Command Undead spell DCs (and then have to think about using other offensive necromancy spells) or putting the Spell Focus in Illusion for the backup gameplan.
Hmm, well I was planning on taking an Arcane Bond for more spellcasting, but perhaps I could actually dust off that old class feature "Deliver Touch Spell" and take an Improved Familiar. How possible is it to keep a familiar alive in Core?
Hm... do I have to turn in my spellbook if I Reduce Person and ride my flying familiar, it dies, and I Animate Dead it to keep my "mount"? Probably not if it's an Imp or a Quasit I guess.
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Get a Flying Familiar to begin with. I'm not super familiar with the core only options for that stuff. Hawks and Owls are not too terrible. Sure you're not getting that fat +4 to Initiative but you won't miss that +4 initiative either when you take Improved Familiar.
Flight alone Keeps your familiar safer. Its HP is half of yours so if you want to work toughness into your build as well as invest in a con belt for yourself.
Also remember Grave Touch (Sp) is always an option level 3+. When you're sitting there thinking about what to deliver between your actual spells. Works well on Mooks levels 3-5 range till you get enough spellcasting.