People on other threads have included Arcane Trickster in the PCs that have been made unplayable by the new FAQ. I don't see this as so.
If I wanted to play, say, a Tiefling Arcane Trickster, I would go about it by taking my first level in Rogue and then 4 levels of Wizard. And I would skimp and save for a Ring of Swarming Stabs. I would do this because you only lose 1 casting lvl and some goodies from being a wizard, in return for being a very limited Rogue who will eventually have a good sneak attack and some neat abilities from the PC.
Alternatively, taking a level in a 2nd class that gives you 1d6 sneak attack and 3 levels of Wizard will still do it. OK, if your arcane casting class is sorcerer, this will put off getting into the PC by a level.
The one option that has disappeared is taking 3 or 4 levels of rogue and 1 or 2 levels of wizard and qualifying via the SLA.
So my view is that the new FAQ has cut down on the ways to build an arcane trickster, but their are still good options. The mystic theurge by contrast has joined the dodo.
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I've played an arcane trickster from 1-23 using just the CRB/APG(all that was out at the time), and it was fine. Heck I went Rogue 3/Sorcerer 4 to qualify. The problem many seem to have with it is that it's really not a good combat class - so if your game is mostly combat, it underperforms. But as a problem solver, the class is stupendous. Having both spellcasting and good skills makes you a skeleton key for many adventuring problems that occur outside of combat.
I can see your point ryric.
Most Pathfinder players want combat effective characters, likely cos most games have lotsa combat.
And a AT built the way I would isn't bad at combat imho.
I will say that I do not believe Ring of Sawrming Stabs would qualify as a +1d6 Sneak Attack for meeting Arcane Trickster prereqs. A 1 level dip in Snakebite Striker would, however.
The fact is:
Arcane Trickster isn't a powerhouse build as is. Delaying access to special class features, extra Sneak Attack, and the AT capstone is something to consider.
The worst part is for Sorcerer/Arcanist-based Arcane Tricksters. They went from being able to go Snakebite 1/Rogue 1/Caster 2/Arcane Trickster X (hitting AT 10 at level 14) to Snakebite 1/Rogue 1/Caster 4/AT X (hitting AT 10 at level 16). Wizards get a one-level kick while being the better base-class as is, while spontaneous get a 2-level kickback.
Of course, the worse-case FAQ base classes are non-arcane bases. Arcane Trickster can advance Divine casting, but it is now impossible for them to qualify without utter insanity under the new FAQ.
The Arcane Trickster is gated more by the Sneak Attack than anything else, and as others have said it isn't a powerhouse when it comes to combat. I think that a strong case can be made that Rogue 2 / <insert favorite spellcaster> N is for many cases better than Arcane Trickster.
The things you gain advancing the pure spell casting classes tend to be better than Arcane Trickster gives. As an example, Rogue 2 / Wizard (Transmutation) 5 gives a moving +2 to any physical attribute and at Wizard 8 gives you a Change Shape ability. Arcanist lose way too much in terms of their pool and exploits. Sorcerer bloodlines tend to give nice goodies as well, although it doesn't work quite as well there since you don't tend to have the Int for skill ranks.
1 I will say that I do not believe Ring of Sawrming Stabs would qualify as a +1d6 Sneak Attack for meeting Arcane Trickster prereqs.
2 Of course, the worse-case FAQ base classes are non-arcane bases. Arcane Trickster can advance Divine casting, but it is now impossible for them to qualify without utter insanity under the new FAQ.
1 Um, why not?
2 You are right of course. I never thought of that.
If I recall, Ring of Swarming mentions it counts as Sneak Attack for effects that negate Sneak Attack, but does not mention it counts as Sneak Attack for other effects. Plus, it's limited to twice per day and only when flanking. But this is off memory and purely opinion
^Even if a Ring of Swarming stabs did qualify you (which seems weird because it only gives you a very limited number of Sneak Attacks per day), it doesn't seem like a safe way to qualify. If anything happens to this item (that requires at least 6000 gp to replace unless somebody in your party can make one), you are suddenly depowered, because you don't qualify for your Arcane Trickster levels any more. No thanks.
Hmmmm.
Probably right.
Its not like me to misread details of what an item does. :(
To be fair, I should clarify that Ring of Swarming Stabs seeming odd for qualifying comes from the fact that it is giving very limited uses per day of an ability that is normally unlimited uses per day. Otherwise, spells and many spell-like abilities (even without the latest FAQ) wouldn't qualify for anything.
One way they could fix Arcane Trickster without needing to make changes to the Arcane Trickster prestige class itself would be to release Wizard, Sorcerer, and Witch archetypes that trade some stuff (like Bonus Feats or Hexes) for +1d6 Sneak Attack, thereby removing the need for early entry. (Bard already has a Sandman archetype that can qualify for Arcane Trickster, but it doesn't seem like a very good archetype.) Unfortunately, this doesn't help for the other hosed prestige classes and feats.
One way they could fix Arcane Trickster without needing to make changes to the Arcane Trickster prestige class itself would be to release Wizard, Sorcerer, and Witch archetypes that trade some stuff (like Bonus Feats or Hexes) for +1d6 Sneak Attack, thereby removing the need for early entry.
Well yes.
But if you do that you are very close to having an Arcane Trickster base class, or a combined class that is very like an Arcane Trickster.The other fundamental is that the AT's BaB tend to be hopeless, rendering its sneak attack near useless.
A Rogue 1/ Snakebite Brawler 1/ Wizard [or whatever]3/ Arcane Trickster 3 may have +3d6 sneak attack damage. But with a BaB of +3 at level 8 the chances of hitting anything dangerous is about zero.
The other fundamental is that the AT's BaB tend to be hopeless, rendering its sneak attack near useless.
A Rogue 1/ Snakebite Brawler 1/ Wizard [or whatever]3/ Arcane Trickster 3 may have +3d6 sneak attack damage. But with a BaB of +3 at level 8 the chances of hitting anything dangerous is about zero.
Which is why they need Ranged Touch spells such as Acid Splash, Ray of Frost, Snowball, Acid Arrow, etc.
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I've played an arcane trickster from 1-23 using just the CRB/APG(all that was out at the time), and it was fine. Heck I went Rogue 3/Sorcerer 4 to qualify. The problem many seem to have with it is that it's really not a good combat class - so if your game is mostly combat, it underperforms. But as a problem solver, the class is stupendous. Having both spellcasting and good skills makes you a skeleton key for many adventuring problems that occur outside of combat.All the AT has over the wizard in skills is 2 skill points. I'm not sure how that makes them an "problem solver".
It just also underperforms in-combat.
Between rogue, AT, and your casting class of choice nearly every skill in the game is a class skill. If you are willing to spread some skill points around all those +3s add up nicely. A lot of skill checks are only in the DC10-15 range so 1 rank in those skills serves nicely if they are class skills.
Also in some ways player expectations come into this - at least for our group it's a rare wizard that maxes out Stealth and Disable Device, but an AT doing it would seem normal.
One caveat on my anecdote - we played before the FAQ on scorching ray and we allowed all rays to get sneak attack if applicable.
Actually one of the big weaknesses of AT is the lack of ranged touch damage spells at several levels in PF.
I've played an arcane trickster from 1-23 using just the CRB/APG(all that was out at the time), and it was fine. Heck I went Rogue 3/Sorcerer 4 to qualify. The problem many seem to have with it is that it's really not a good combat class - so if your game is mostly combat, it underperforms. But as a problem solver, the class is stupendous. Having both spellcasting and good skills makes you a skeleton key for many adventuring problems that occur outside of combat.All the AT has over the wizard in skills is 2 skill points. I'm not sure how that makes them an "problem solver".
It just also underperforms in-combat.
Only 1 skill point if you put FCB towards that, but a lot more class skills than a plain wizard. I don't think it even adds any class skills to someone coming in via Wizard/Rogue.
As I stated above, for many cases you would be better off staying in the spell casting class.
It's probably a good idea for the Wizard to invest in Stealth unless he's the only Knowledge guy in the party. They have decent Dex and even under invis, it's a good idea to not be the target on anyone in a fight.
If he has to cover all the Knowledges personally, then sure, might not have Stealth. I would assume there's some Rogue-equivalent in the party splitting those halfway with him though.
What new FAQ?
A Greensting Slayer Magus 5 can go into Arcane Trickster.
You sure this works? Since the Greensting Slayer Magus Sneak Attack is dependent upon Arcane Pool expenditure instead of being a regular Sneak Attack that you can use any time you can set up a Sneak Attack, it would seem to me that it suffers from the same problems as the Ring of Sawrming Stabs as posted above, including the problem that even if it does work, it quits working when you run out of Arcane Pool points, thereby depowering your Arcane Trickster levels. And even if THAT turns out not to be a problem, Arcane Trickster seems like not a very good prestige class for a Greensting Slayer Magus: Your spell progression stays 6/9, but now you have d6 Hit Dice and no Favored Class Bonus, and lose out on Magus class features that are more important than the ones that a Wizard or Sorcerer would lose by going Arcane Trickster. Of course, Greensting Slayer seems to me like not a very good Magus archetype in the first place, but more like an attempt to replace Arcane Trickster with an archetype, which wouldn't be a bad idea in itself, except that it is crippled by the Arcane Pool tax (including being unable to use it to enhance your weapon) to get Sneak Attack on top of all the other problems setting up Sneak Attack, and the other class feature trades don't really make up for this.
One way they could fix Arcane Trickster without needing to make changes to the Arcane Trickster prestige class itself would be to release Wizard, Sorcerer, and Witch archetypes that trade some stuff (like Bonus Feats or Hexes) for +1d6 Sneak Attack, thereby removing the need for early entry.
Well yes.
But if you do that you are very close to having an Arcane Trickster base class, or a combined class that is very like an Arcane Trickster.
Yes, but if you then take levels of Arcane Trickster prestige class, you actually get something for it that isn't accompanied by a crippling opportunity cost of delayed Sneak Attack AND casting. A martial equivalent would be the Aldori Swordlord Fighter archetype (Swordlord on d20pfsrd.com) and Aldori Swordlord (Swordlord on d20pfsrd.com) prestige class, although this isn't an exact analogy, because according to the Aldori Swordlord guide, the Fighter archetype and the prestige class actually don't synergize very well.
The other fundamental is that the AT's BaB tend to be hopeless, rendering its sneak attack near useless.
A Rogue 1/ Snakebite Brawler 1/ Wizard [or whatever]3/ Arcane Trickster 3 may have +3d6 sneak attack damage. But with a BaB of +3 at level 8 the chances of hitting anything dangerous is about zero.
This is a real problem (although see posts in between ours about Sneak Attack using ranged touch attacks), made worse by the way multiclassing just mindlessly adds Base Attack Bonus values (and Base Saving Throw Bonuses, for that matter) from the tables (so 1 level of 1/2 BAB class + 1 level of 3/4 BAB class + 1 level of different 1/2 BAB class gets you +0), without actually doing the math that would make multiclassing work more smoothly (1 level of 1/2 BAB class + 1 level of 3/4 BAB + 1 level of different 1/2 BAB class class SHOULD get you +1, with a remainder of +3/4 that doesn't do anything by itself, but can be stacked with other fractions to build up to more whole numbers later).
What new FAQ?
This one. It wouldn't have been so bad if it had always been this way, but an earlier FAQ had decided that Spell-Like Abilities could substitute for spells of the same level for the purpose of qualifying for feats and prestige classes, and was left in place for over a year, and a lot of people came to depend upon it for making some prestige classes, including Arcane Trickster and especially Mystic Theurge and to a lesser extent Eldritch Knight (and a few non-prestige-class builds) decent -- not overpowered or at most only somewhat overpowered in the upper levels, but decent. The new FAQ mostly reverses the old one, thereby hosing a lot of people.
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Seems what we really need is an actual sneaky caster base case. Filling the Arcane Trickster niche with a base class rather than a prestige one. I'm kind of surprised nothing like that came up with hybrid classes in ACG. Or even beforehand.
Magic-user/Thief was one of my favorite things in AD&D. It's a shame it really hasn't worked since then.
I wanted this instead of hunter... :(
Any 5e players in here? How does the Arcane Trickster Rogue archetype-thing work out in that?
It seemed to be more Beguiler than damage-spells on crack, but I haven't played any 5e at all, so I'm not sure how well it pulls off that role.
Seems what we really need is an actual sneaky caster base case. Filling the Arcane Trickster niche with a base class rather than a prestige one. I'm kind of surprised nothing like that came up with hybrid classes in ACG. Or even beforehand.
Magic-user/Thief was one of my favorite things in AD&D. It's a shame it really hasn't worked since then.
Investigator is close, but uses Alchemy rather than spell casting. On the other hand, that means that you don't make a lot of noise when you activate a magical effect.
Investigator is close, but uses Alchemy rather than spell casting. On the other hand, that means that you don't make a lot of noise when you activate a magical effect.Seems what we really need is an actual sneaky caster base case. Filling the Arcane Trickster niche with a base class rather than a prestige one. I'm kind of surprised nothing like that came up with hybrid classes in ACG. Or even beforehand.
Magic-user/Thief was one of my favorite things in AD&D. It's a shame it really hasn't worked since then.
Is that true or is that opinion based?
Is that true or is that opinion based?Investigator is close, but uses Alchemy rather than spell casting. On the other hand, that means that you don't make a lot of noise when you activate a magical effect.Seems what we really need is an actual sneaky caster base case. Filling the Arcane Trickster niche with a base class rather than a prestige one. I'm kind of surprised nothing like that came up with hybrid classes in ACG. Or even beforehand.
Magic-user/Thief was one of my favorite things in AD&D. It's a shame it really hasn't worked since then.
How could that be opinion based? He stated facts.
Any 5e players in here? How does the Arcane Trickster Rogue archetype-thing work out in that?
It seemed to be more Beguiler than damage-spells on crack, but I haven't played any 5e at all, so I'm not sure how well it pulls off that role.It pulls it ('it' being damage) off as well as a standard rogue in 5e (the assassin archetype is a bit better, but more sitational). There's no way I know to combine sneak attacks and spells in that system, as Sneak attacks have to be done by a finesse or ranged weapon, and spells are neither. You can take blasty spells, but it's a waste, your normal SA attacks are going to do more.
Otherwise, since rogue is strong, it's really strong. You retain all the cool stuff from the rogue, and the spells (especially the cantrips) give you a lot of versatility.
Sounds cool. Sneaky utility spells is the kind of Arcane Trickster I prefer, but I think blasty (queue ew blasts) is the better way to use it in PFinder/3.5. Otherwise I prefer something like a Trickster Spellthief (3.5) or Archaeologist Bard (PF)
Stygian Slayer has all the sneaky-stabby magic as long as you buy the wands/scrolls. No chance of failure to activate, no investment in UMD. All Level 0-4 Illusion spells is pretty cool if you buy the right ones.
Doesn't the Archaeologist Bard do a rather decent job of being an arcane trickster base class?
How could that be opinion based? He stated facts.Is that true or is that opinion based?Investigator is close, but uses Alchemy rather than spell casting. On the other hand, that means that you don't make a lot of noise when you activate a magical effect.Seems what we really need is an actual sneaky caster base case. Filling the Arcane Trickster niche with a base class rather than a prestige one. I'm kind of surprised nothing like that came up with hybrid classes in ACG. Or even beforehand.
Magic-user/Thief was one of my favorite things in AD&D. It's a shame it really hasn't worked since then.
My question is regarding the amount of noise generated.
Doesn't the Archaeologist Bard do a rather decent job of being an arcane trickster base class?
AT is balanced around progressing a 9/9 caster rather than a 6/9 and, because of that, you are better off going full Bard or Rogue/Wizard/AT for a magic-thief type build (or just full Wizard/Other caster)
My question is regarding the amount of noise generated.How could that be opinion based? He stated facts.Is that true or is that opinion based?Investigator is close, but uses Alchemy rather than spell casting. On the other hand, that means that you don't make a lot of noise when you activate a magical effect.Seems what we really need is an actual sneaky caster base case. Filling the Arcane Trickster niche with a base class rather than a prestige one. I'm kind of surprised nothing like that came up with hybrid classes in ACG. Or even beforehand.
Magic-user/Thief was one of my favorite things in AD&D. It's a shame it really hasn't worked since then.
Unless there's a Perception DC listed for someone drinking a potion, then yes, it's silent.
The arcane trickster is probably the least affected by the reversal, because the biggest limitation has always been getting the 2d6 Sneak Attack, rather than being able to cast the 2nd-level arcane spell. Also, early entry via SLA doesn't really net you that much (other than possibly advancing in Sneak Attack slightly quicker).
As far as being a poor combatant, it was never designed to be much more than a ranged touch blaster/sniper (using Sneak Attack to boost damage lost to the caster level hit; which is minimal with Magical Knack, anyway). If you want more (ranged) combat utility, then taking Weapon Focus with either short or long bow (on top of Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, which are good choices for a blaster, anyway) qualifies you to take 3-4 levels in arcane archer, once your BAB hits +6 (usually about 11th to 13th character level); combined with heroism (and Quickened true strike), as well as gravity bow, you can act as a decent archer, even before considering the synergy between sniper goggles, Imbue Spell, Impromptu Sneak Attack, and (at 10th-level arcane trickster) Surprise Spells.
My preferred progression was normally something like rogue (sniper) 3/wizard (Evocation/Admixture) 3/arcane trickster 6/arcane archer 2/arcane trickster +4/arcane archer +2 or ninja 3/sorcerer 4/arcane trickster 4/arcane archer 2/arcane trickster +6/arcane archer +1. With the snakebite striker archetype for the brawler in the Advanced Class Guide, brawler (snakebite striker) 1/[rogue, ninja, or vivisectionist alchemist] 1/wizard (Evocation/Admixture) 3/arcane trickster 6/wizard +1/arcane archer 2/arcane trickster +4/arcane archer +2 gives a slightly better spell progression (17th-level wizard, enough for 9th-level spells) and the same BAB (+12; not great, but OK with heroism and a high Dex; definitely better than using assassin or master spy to get the extra d6 of Sneak Attack).
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I've been playing a Half-Elf Ninja/Winter Witch/Arcane Trickster in Jade Regent.
She was fine at low levels, and then from about levels 4-8 had to be carried by the rest of the party in combat -- but then she carried everyone else out of combat, so it worked out ok.
She really started catching back up when she got 3rd level spells at level 9. Paragon surge made all the difference. It's a perfect spell for an AT -- INT bonus, DEX bonus, and the ability to pick the perfect feat for the situation.
Just finished the 4th book and hit 12th level, and she is back to being a fully co-equal participant in combat. You can't ever relax as an AT, because it's all about situational awareness, but that's what makes it fun.
The only thing "new" that is really intriguing me with the arcane trickster right now is the bomber discovery and how it works into the mix.
In my mind even though it doesn't push the sneak attack damage it is definitely a way for the arcane trickster with rogue levels to have another resource to add into the mix.
Unless there's a Perception DC listed for someone drinking a potion, then yes, it's silent.My question is regarding the amount of noise generated.How could that be opinion based? He stated facts.Is that true or is that opinion based?Investigator is close, but uses Alchemy rather than spell casting. On the other hand, that means that you don't make a lot of noise when you activate a magical effect.Seems what we really need is an actual sneaky caster base case. Filling the Arcane Trickster niche with a base class rather than a prestige one. I'm kind of surprised nothing like that came up with hybrid classes in ACG. Or even beforehand.
Magic-user/Thief was one of my favorite things in AD&D. It's a shame it really hasn't worked since then.
You still have to pull out the potion and in some cases make the item in question.
Is their a perception dc of casting a spell? If so, I can't find it.
I'm just playing Asmodeus' Advocate.
Edited for clarity.
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Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance of spoiling any spell with a verbal component that he tries to cast.
According to the Perception table, the DC to "hear the details of a conversation" is 0 while the DC to "hear the sounds of battle" is -10. I'd say "speaking in a strong voice" is equivalent to "a conversation," so it's a Perception DC 0 to hear the incantation well enough to discern the words (i.e., for a Spellcraft check to identify the spell); to notice the incantation in the first place (if the caster is invisible or hidden), I'd say a DC -5 would be reasonable.
Modified for distance, etc.
Joynt Jezebel wrote:
The other fundamental is that the AT's BaB tend to be hopeless, rendering its sneak attack near useless.
A Rogue 1/ Snakebite Brawler 1/ Wizard [or whatever]3/ Arcane Trickster 3 may have +3d6 sneak attack damage. But with a BaB of +3 at level 8 the chances of hitting anything dangerous is about zero.
This is a real problem (although see posts in between ours about Sneak Attack using ranged touch attacks), made worse by the way multiclassing just mindlessly adds Base Attack Bonus values (and Base Saving Throw Bonuses, for that matter) from the tables (so 1 level of 1/2 BAB class + 1 level of 3/4 BAB class + 1 level of different 1/2 BAB class gets you +0), without actually doing the math that would make multiclassing work more smoothly (1 level of 1/2 BAB class + 1 level of 3/4 BAB + 1 level of different 1/2 BAB class class SHOULD get you +1, with a remainder of +3/4 that doesn't do anything by itself, but can be stacked with other fractions to build up to more whole numbers later.
I see what you are saying.
A house rule to make PCs and multi-classing a bit more attractive.
It does not give such characters an advantage over characters who follow one class, just removes a very severe disadvantage they get as things are. A very good idea.
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Joynt Jezebel wrote:
The other fundamental is that the AT's BaB tend to be hopeless, rendering its sneak attack near useless.
A Rogue 1/ Snakebite Brawler 1/ Wizard [or whatever]3/ Arcane Trickster 3 may have +3d6 sneak attack damage. But with a BaB of +3 at level 8 the chances of hitting anything dangerous is about zero.
If they are targeting touch ac, its workable, but as I have pointed out before, a single class rogue can do touch sneak attacks via chill touch more effectively than the AT. That's pretty pathetic.
Joynt Jezebel wrote:
The other fundamental is that the AT's BaB tend to be hopeless, rendering its sneak attack near useless.
A Rogue 1/ Snakebite Brawler 1/ Wizard [or whatever]3/ Arcane Trickster 3 may have +3d6 sneak attack damage. But with a BaB of +3 at level 8 the chances of hitting anything dangerous is about zero.
As mentioned, when targeting touch AC, it's workable; especially if you're going for Sneak Attacks (vs. flat-footed opponents, etc.).
With Reach Spell and shocking grasp, that's a 5d6 ranged touch attack (base electricity; can be changed to acid, cold, or fire with Versatile Evocation) + 3d6 Sneak Attack (can use Impromptu Sneak Attack once per day, if you can't otherwise set up a Sneak Attack: "The target of an impromptu sneak attack loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, but only against that attack;" should help with touch AC, too; not to mention the +3 on attack rolls "if the opponent is wearing metal armor (or is carrying a metal weapon or is made of metal)") with a 2nd-level spell slot. 8d6 ranged touch damage for an 8th-level character; seems to be in line with the system baseline.