SLA FAQ Reversal

[Cheapy]

The bandaid was never meant to be about making the PrCs better. That was not the intention at all. It was a side effect, but people act like it was the main purpose.

The purpose was to make the rules consistent with how SLAs were treated as spells and for what purposes, fixing a gray area in the rules.

The medicine Adderall is often used to treat ADD, but has the side effect of causing people to lose weight since it's an appetite suppressant. This is like people complaining that now that they no longer have the medication, they've gained weight again.

Spoiler:

Not the best analogy since Adderall was originally meant to be a weight loss pill, but whatevs.

[Trogdar]

Its funny though because the side effect more positively impacted the game than the fix.

[Nicos]

Cheapy wrote:

The purpose was to make the rules consistent with how SLAs were treated as spells and for what purposes, fixing a gray area in the rules.

That make no sense at all.

[Rhedyn]

Imbicatus wrote:

Xethik wrote:

Rhedyn wrote:

BigDTBone wrote:

Rhedyn wrote:

Iron Vagabond DM wrote:

Arcane Trickster still functions as the trapfinder, and glass cannon, but not as effectively (Nor as effectively as a Rouge), due to the delayed 1d6, failing to keep up with the exponential HP growth, while also failing to work as effectively as a wizard, while getting outshines by other casters who didn't get a dip.

Uh what?

AT stomps rogue into the ground. Heck go scount/AT to get acid-splash touch-attack sneak attacks every round. Is AT good? Pfffffff idk, but it is certainly better than a rogue.

How do you charge and cast at the same time?

Touch attack, single attack... I'd rather full attack with daggers. And that is saying something!

Skirmisher man. Move 10+ feet, auto sneak attack. You're a caster and that is your cantrip. Not bad. (Which you totally will never get so ignore that idea :P)

Let's look through AT.
R3/W3/AT10/W4

Alright that nets you 10 BAB, 17 CL, 9th level spells, 7d6 sneak attack.
Oh look in-class access to greater invisibility. Yes please.
You're a bad wizard, but that is still vastly better than a rogue.

Don't you need 8 levels of Rogue to get Skirmisher?

Yes you do. Scout is actually doing nothing for this build as Scouts Charge doesn't even kick in until 4th level.

Which is why I said ignore the idea.

Reading...

[Imbicatus]

Rhedyn wrote:

Which is why I said ignore the idea.

Reading...

Except you didn't say that at all. There is not a problem with reading if the writing isn't there.

Edit: OK, you said it, but it wasn't clear what you were saying to ignore. You can be more clear in your edits by bringing attention to them, or using {s}strikethough{/s}

[Xethik]

Rhedyn wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Xethik wrote:

Rhedyn wrote:

BigDTBone wrote:

Rhedyn wrote:

Iron Vagabond DM wrote:

Arcane Trickster still functions as the trapfinder, and glass cannon, but not as effectively (Nor as effectively as a Rouge), due to the delayed 1d6, failing to keep up with the exponential HP growth, while also failing to work as effectively as a wizard, while getting outshines by other casters who didn't get a dip.

Uh what?

AT stomps rogue into the ground. Heck go scount/AT to get acid-splash touch-attack sneak attacks every round. Is AT good? Pfffffff idk, but it is certainly better than a rogue.

How do you charge and cast at the same time?

Touch attack, single attack... I'd rather full attack with daggers. And that is saying something!

Skirmisher man. Move 10+ feet, auto sneak attack. You're a caster and that is your cantrip. Not bad. (Which you totally will never get so ignore that idea :P)

Let's look through AT.
R3/W3/AT10/W4

Alright that nets you 10 BAB, 17 CL, 9th level spells, 7d6 sneak attack.
Oh look in-class access to greater invisibility. Yes please.
You're a bad wizard, but that is still vastly better than a rogue.

Don't you need 8 levels of Rogue to get Skirmisher?

Yes you do. Scout is actually doing nothing for this build as Scouts Charge doesn't even kick in until 4th level.

Which is why I said ignore the idea.

Reading...

I did not understand exactly what idea you were saying to ignore at first read. Makes sense now that you clarify

[Rhedyn]

Rynjin wrote:

Rhedyn wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

So assuming you're okay with only having 14 Hit Dice and dying at 0 HP, spending 100 gp per HP to repair any damage dealt to you, take over the right body in the first place (since Magic Jar determines who you possess randomly), and not being able to fit...anywhere, you can achieve the attack bonus of an unbuffed 20th level Magus (+15 BaB, +12 Dex, +5 weapon).

Gratz?

Edit: Oh, sorry, we're assuming Power Attack, so +28 on the Magus until you factor in Haste (+1) and Arcane Accuracy (at least 5, likely +8 or more).

Edit 2: And I forgot Greater Spell Access, so toss +4 from Greater Heroism on there too.

Edit 3: And an extra +3 to-hit against a lot of things because of Shocking Grasp.

Neat. But your magus is also three spell levels behind the EK and has a worse list.

Oh don't get me wrong I love magi (campaign is 26 point buy which means some extra con/cha).

Keep that dex stuff away from me. I have enough pool points to use Arcane strike every round, so at level 15 I already have a +12 to-hit from attributes. The magus fits better in super high-op groups like the one my magus is in. In the other groups I play in, people would call my EK op. Heck they already call my aegis OP.

Which has exactly nothing to do with the price of rice in China considering you were speaking of attack bonus, which is what our whole conversation was about.

The Eldritch Knight is a sub par fighter, and a sub par Wizard. When your goal is to be a good fighter, it doesn't really matter if you're a better Wizard than the guy not trying to be a Wizard if he's a better fighter than you by a looooooot.

Um no. I was talking about how a 16 BAB, 9th level spellcaster is a viable character.

The magus makes for a better war-sword. That doesn't mean EK doesn't mean EK is terra-bad.

I also never claimed that EKs get better to-hit than a magus. I claimed the EK to-hit is good enough with buffing.

[Rynjin]

I'll believe you when you show me his to hit bonus without silly counterproductive plans like Simuladragojar.

[UnArcaneElection]

Keep in mind that without early entry, by the time Eldritch Knight surpasses the BAB of a Magus, the campaign is probably about to end (for PFS, change "probably about to end" to "already ended"), and you don't get the various other Magus class abilities (except for 3 Bonus Combat Feats) with Eldritch Knight.

Eldritch Knight's Critical Strike is nice (much better than the Magus Arcana that somewhat replicate it, since those are each limited to 1/day), but see above note about BAB.

So Eldritch Knight with early entry and a really careful build could get somewhat overpowered at high levels, but not by a huge amount, and not being overpowered at the low to mid levels (and without early entry, only becoming okay at the upper levels -- not bad in a campaign that actually goes past level 16, but otherwise at best mediocre).

[Scavion]

Rynjin wrote:

I'll believe you when you show me his to hit bonus without silly counterproductive plans like Simuladragojar.

Im a bit worrried about all this focus on the end game when 5th-10th is the big focus point for most folks.

[Rynjin]

Scavion wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

I'll believe you when you show me his to hit bonus without silly counterproductive plans like Simuladragojar.

Im a bit worrried about all this focus on the end game when 5th-10th is the big focus point for most folks.

5th to 10th the EK is easily visibly behind, and doesn't have much of a casting advantage either (if any) so let's be nice.

[Imbicatus]

Rynjin wrote:

Scavion wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

I'll believe you when you show me his to hit bonus without silly counterproductive plans like Simuladragojar.

Im a bit worrried about all this focus on the end game when 5th-10th is the big focus point for most folks.

5th to 10th the EK is easily visibly behind, and doesn't have much of a casting advantage either (if any) so let's be nice.

Exactly. With early entry it could at least be equal to a 3/4 bab at 10.

[Rhedyn]

Scavion wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

I'll believe you when you show me his to hit bonus without silly counterproductive plans like Simuladragojar.

Im a bit worrried about all this focus on the end game when 5th-10th is the big focus point for most folks.

My games don't focus on those levels.

9+ is where the vast majority of our time is spent.

[Rhedyn]

Rynjin wrote:

I'll believe you when you show me his to hit bonus without silly counterproductive plans like Simuladragojar.

OK. Well I'm going to go dual talented human 20 point buy.

Starting stats:
18 str
12 dex
14 con
17 int
8 wis
8 cha

Let's put all 5 level increases into int. No tomes. Assume +6 stat items
Strength starts at 24.
Buffs: Haste, form of the dragon III (or shape-change), greater heroism. You may even want to use transformation if ALL you plan to-do is hit things

16 BAB + 12 strength + 5 amulet + 1 haste + 4 greater heroism - 2 size = +36 to-hit

OK now for attacks patterns (with arcane strike + no PA)
Bite +36 for 2d8+27
2 claws +36 for 2d6+21
2 wings +31 for 1d8+15
tail +31 for 2d6+27

(with arcane strike + PA)
Bite +31 for 2d8+42
2 claws +31 for 2d6+31
2 wings +26 for 1d8+20
tail +26 for 2d6+42

I can live with that.

[Scavion]

Rhedyn wrote:

Scavion wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

I'll believe you when you show me his to hit bonus without silly counterproductive plans like Simuladragojar.

Im a bit worrried about all this focus on the end game when 5th-10th is the big focus point for most folks.

My games don't focus on those levels.

9+ is where the vast majority of our time is spent.

Then a 10th level writeup? A 20th level character isnt going to see much play anyways.

By the way, way more folks play 1-12th than 12+. The issue at hand as I see it is that the previous ruling made it work sooner rather than not at all for most people since most people play 1st-12th.

[Trogdar]

Rhedyn wrote:

Scavion wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

I'll believe you when you show me his to hit bonus without silly counterproductive plans like Simuladragojar.

Im a bit worrried about all this focus on the end game when 5th-10th is the big focus point for most folks.

My games don't focus on those levels.

9+ is where the vast majority of our time is spent.

So, because you don't play at low level doesn't mean that low levels are not relevant. They're just not relevant to you.

[Rhedyn]

Trogdar wrote:

Rhedyn wrote:

Scavion wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

I'll believe you when you show me his to hit bonus without silly counterproductive plans like Simuladragojar.

Im a bit worrried about all this focus on the end game when 5th-10th is the big focus point for most folks.

My games don't focus on those levels.

9+ is where the vast majority of our time is spent.

So, because you don't play at low level doesn't mean that low levels are not relevant. They're just not relevant to you.

And?

I have said all along that there is no reason to play these classes in PFS like games that wallow in the pre-12 zone.

[Rhedyn]

Scavion wrote:

Rhedyn wrote:

Scavion wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

I'll believe you when you show me his to hit bonus without silly counterproductive plans like Simuladragojar.

Im a bit worrried about all this focus on the end game when 5th-10th is the big focus point for most folks.

My games don't focus on those levels.

9+ is where the vast majority of our time is spent.

Then a 10th level writeup? A 20th level character isnt going to see much play anyways.

10?

That is about as useful as a level 2 PFS character write-up. I could see level 12 write-ups.

[Zaister]

My theory is that people who only focus on what a particular "build" can do at 20th level are probably just "theorycrafting" and not really playing those.

I suspect for most Pathfinder Players the game is long over before 20th level becomes relevant. It's not even relevant for PFS.

[Rhedyn]

Zaister wrote:

My theory is that people who only focus on what a particular "build" can do at 20th level are probably just "theorycrafting" and not really playing those.

I suspect for most Pathfinder Players the game is long over before 20th level becomes relevant. It's not even relevant for PFS.

For me, level 20 is just an easier place to add up the numbers than mid levels.

EDIT: Mainly because you don't have to actually bother working out the WBL at 20 for most of the calculations. Lower levels the money is tighter.

[Zaister]

What I'm saying is that the "20th level build" is basically irrelevant to the actual game.

[Kaouse]

Rhedyn wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

I'll believe you when you show me his to hit bonus without silly counterproductive plans like Simuladragojar.

OK. Well I'm going to go dual talented human 20 point buy.

Starting stats:
18 str
12 dex
14 con
17 int
8 wis
8 cha

Let's put all 5 level increases into int. No tomes. Assume +6 stat items
Strength starts at 24.
Buffs: Haste, form of the dragon III (or shape-change), greater heroism. You may even want to use transformation if ALL you plan to-do is hit things

16 BAB + 12 strength + 5 amulet + 1 haste + 4 greater heroism - 2 size = +36 to-hit

OK now for attacks patterns (with arcane strike + no PA)
Bite +36 for 2d8+27
2 claws +36 for 2d6+21
2 wings +31 for 1d8+15
tail +31 for 2d6+27

(with arcane strike + PA)
Bite +31 for 2d8+42
2 claws +31 for 2d6+31
2 wings +26 for 1d8+20
tail +26 for 2d6+42

I can live with that.

What's your AC?

[Scavion]

Rhedyn wrote:

Lower levels the money is tighter.

Kind of the point. I can do insane things with my wealth due to system mastery and knowing what to buy. At higher levels your actual class means less.

[Zhangar]

The high level EK could also go with Frightful Aspect or Giant Form II - either way, net +2 hit, with significant bonuses to damage, AC and Con, and still allows use of the EK's weapon.

And if sufficiently pissed off, the high level EK always has the option using limited wish to duplicate a divine power spell.

I'm a little baffled at the current discussion - does this argument boil down "all wizards are overpowered because wizards, but the EK is insufficiently overpowered because he gave up two caster levels to catch his BAB up to a cleric"?

I will go so far as to posit that since an EK still gets 1 to 9 arcane spells, it is completely okay if an EK isn't quite as good at melee as an actual dedicated martial. (Interestingly, most melee-ish wizard buffs are aimed at upping damage rather than accuracy. Trying combining Frightful Aspect or Giant Form II and, say, Fiery Body.)

Also, if the issue is caster level and caster level checks, well, there's ways to make up for that. I'm sure I can find more, but meh. Nothing stops an EK from using any of the tricks that a full caster would use anyways.

(My most recent experience with an EK was a lashunta female fighter/abjurer/eldritch knight in my Rise of the Runelords game. The player generally ran her as a wizard who happened to be competent at chopping people to death when she wanted to save spells, rather than as a martial who happened to have high level spells. I allowed her to craft celestial plate armor; after her arcane armor mastery feats she didn't have spell failure. Her melee wasn't quite as good as the other martials, but her defenses (courtesy of gear + self-only buff spells) were obscene - she'd cheerfully march/fly right through a squad of giants without getting touched. Heh. The character usually dealt with casting defensively by not bothering - she'd just provoke the AoOs, watch everything miss her, and then finish her spell.)

@ Zaister - prestige classes are long term investments, and the game doesn't protect you from self sabotage. If your campaign won't make it past 10th level, you probably just shouldn't take a prestige class.

I can only think of a couple prestige classes I'd actually go for in a short campaign, like Maguumbyan Arcanist. But otherwise, I can't see deliberately taking a prestige class that I know I won't finish.

Edit: Made a few minor edits to my paragraph about the EK I recently GM'd for, for hopefully better clarity.

[Hoplophobia]

Akerlof wrote:

Well, the professional way to do something like that (reverse the FAQ to make room for a replacement) would be to announce the change, explain how it's necessary in order to clear the road for a better fix, and time it to make the least impact on the player base.

Instead, they made an unannounced change to the FAQ on a Wednesday afternoon, there was one vague comment from an individual developer buried in a player created thread that isn't even in the Rules forum, and the only product I can see this change clearing the road for is two months out (and doesn't mention anything about prestige classes.) You've also got the creative director on the record as hating the previous rule and taking credit for creating a prestige class almost a year after the ruling was created with requirements that can be met for early entry despite the fact that he is vehemently against it.

Paizo's treatment of this specific situation does not inspire confidence in me that they will address our concerns at any time in the future. Much less do so soon.

Best post in the whole thread. I can't favorite this enough.

[Rhedyn]

Kaouse wrote:

Rhedyn wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

I'll believe you when you show me his to hit bonus without silly counterproductive plans like Simuladragojar.

OK. Well I'm going to go dual talented human 20 point buy.

Starting stats:
18 str
12 dex
14 con
17 int
8 wis
8 cha

Let's put all 5 level increases into int. No tomes. Assume +6 stat items
Strength starts at 24.
Buffs: Haste, form of the dragon III (or shape-change), greater heroism. You may even want to use transformation if ALL you plan to-do is hit things

16 BAB + 12 strength + 5 amulet + 1 haste + 4 greater heroism - 2 size = +36 to-hit

OK now for attacks patterns (with arcane strike + no PA)
Bite +36 for 2d8+27
2 claws +36 for 2d6+21
2 wings +31 for 1d8+15
tail +31 for 2d6+27

(with arcane strike + PA)
Bite +31 for 2d8+42
2 claws +31 for 2d6+31
2 wings +26 for 1d8+20
tail +26 for 2d6+42

I can live with that.

What's your AC?

Let's estimate!

8 base + 8 nat + 5 enh nat + 4 shield + 8 armor + 5 def + 4 dex = 42

or 37 if you can't find someway to get a barkskin like effect AND a greater magic fang like effect.

[Tels]

I have to wonder if this FAQ wasn't changed to make something in Occult Mysteries look better, or to make it so something in Occult Mysteries doesn't break something.

[Imbicatus]

Tels wrote:

I have to wonder if this FAQ wasn't changed to make something in Occult Mysteries look better, or to make it so something in Occult Mysteries doesn't break something.

Kineticist is hosed by this, as they don't have spells at all, but they do have SLAs.

Every other class in the playtest casts real spells but they aren't arcane or divine, so they never would have benefited from arcane strike or the PrCs.

I think it's more likely that people didn't want Arcane Strike on Core Rogues and Gnomes in CorePFS.

[Tels]

Imbicatus wrote:

Tels wrote:

I have to wonder if this FAQ wasn't changed to make something in Occult Mysteries look better, or to make it so something in Occult Mysteries doesn't break something.

Kineticist is hosed by this, as they don't have spells at all, but they do have SLAs.

Every other class in the playtest casts real spells but they aren't arcane or divine, so they never would have benefited from arcane strike or the PrCs.

I think it's more likely that people didn't want Arcane Strike on Core Rogues and Gnomes in CorePFS.

It didn't really affect kineticists either way as their SLAs weren't arcane or divine so they typically couldn't qualify for any prestige class. Though, I guess they could have qualified for some of the crafting feats.

[graystone]

Cheapy wrote:

The bandaid was never meant to be about making the PrCs better. That was not the intention at all. It was a side effect, but people act like it was the main purpose.

The purpose was to make the rules consistent with how SLAs were treated as spells and for what purposes, fixing a gray area in the rules.

The medicine Adderall is often used to treat ADD, but has the side effect of causing people to lose weight since it's an appetite suppressant. This is like people complaining that now that they no longer have the medication, they've gained weight again.

** spoiler omitted **

I've tried saying the same thing in other thrads. The FAQ was a clarification on SLA. The rules say they "work just like spells" but aren't spells. It just explained what "work just like spells" means.

[Rhedyn]

Tels wrote:

I have to wonder if this FAQ wasn't changed to make something in Occult Mysteries look better, or to make it so something in Occult Mysteries doesn't break something.

Watch it come out with a feat that allows you to use SLAs for magic item crafting and prereqs.

[Majuba]

Thank you.

[graystone]

Rhedyn wrote:

Tels wrote:

I have to wonder if this FAQ wasn't changed to make something in Occult Mysteries look better, or to make it so something in Occult Mysteries doesn't break something.

Watch it come out with a feat that allows you to use SLAs for magic item crafting and prereqs.

If that's the case, dropping a hint that we'd see something we'd like in that book would make people a LOT more likely to accept the FAQ.

[graystone]

Majuba wrote:

Thank you.

Was that to a poster or a comment on the FAQ?

[Trogdar]

I wonder if you could build a character entirely with those sorts of feats yet. It would amuse me to see if an entire feat progression could be wasted trying to do a couple of things casters do for nothing. :)

[Tacticslion]

If nothing else, it would make an interesting NPC!

[Trogdar]

Tacticslion wrote:

If nothing else, it would make an interesting NPC!

No doubt, though the more of this kind of thing you publish, the more often your going to have players coming to the table with NPC's that happen to have class levels.

[Arachnofiend]

Tels wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Tels wrote:

I have to wonder if this FAQ wasn't changed to make something in Occult Mysteries look better, or to make it so something in Occult Mysteries doesn't break something.

Kineticist is hosed by this, as they don't have spells at all, but they do have SLAs.

Every other class in the playtest casts real spells but they aren't arcane or divine, so they never would have benefited from arcane strike or the PrCs.

I think it's more likely that people didn't want Arcane Strike on Core Rogues and Gnomes in CorePFS.

It didn't really affect kineticists either way as their SLAs weren't arcane or divine so they typically couldn't qualify for any prestige class. Though, I guess they could have qualified for some of the crafting feats.

Kineticist damage is really low without Arcane Strike via a cantrip trait. Now they don't even have that option.

[Tels]

Arachnofiend wrote:

Tels wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Tels wrote:

I have to wonder if this FAQ wasn't changed to make something in Occult Mysteries look better, or to make it so something in Occult Mysteries doesn't break something.

Kineticist is hosed by this, as they don't have spells at all, but they do have SLAs.

Every other class in the playtest casts real spells but they aren't arcane or divine, so they never would have benefited from arcane strike or the PrCs.

I think it's more likely that people didn't want Arcane Strike on Core Rogues and Gnomes in CorePFS.

It didn't really affect kineticists either way as their SLAs weren't arcane or divine so they typically couldn't qualify for any prestige class. Though, I guess they could have qualified for some of the crafting feats.

Kineticist damage is really low without Arcane Strike via a cantrip trait. Now they don't even have that option.

Not sure if you've kept up with the Kineticist thread, but Kineticists are getting a bump in the final release.

[Imbicatus]

Although Kineticists are loosing Vital Strike, which really hurts. It was nice to have Vital Strike be a good option instead of a trap.

[Tels]

Imbicatus wrote:

Although Kineticists are loosing Vital Strike, which really hurts. It was nice to have Vital Strike be a good option instead of a trap.

Technically, they're only loosing it for blade and whip, but as you can't use Vital Strike with the blast anyhow, it's of moot point. If you can figure out some way of 'holding the charge' with the ranged blast (not possible as far as I'm aware), then you can totally Vital Strike with it.

[Kaouse]

Rhedyn wrote:

Let's estimate!

8 base + 8 nat + 5 enh nat + 4 shield + 8 armor + 5 def + 4 dex = 42

or 37 if you can't find someway to get a barkskin like effect AND a greater magic fang like effect.

That's not bad. I'm assuming you're using the Spell Mage Armor III and the Shield spell for those numbers, right? And I guess you can cast Barkskin from a scroll or a wand or something, I'm sure. It's roughly around where people would say the minimum "safe" AC is (20 + level).

My only real problem is that this build you've presented is heavily reliant on prior buffing, and has issues with Greater Targeted Dispel. Plus, since you gave up that last caster level for some extra BAB, it's also easier to dispel said buffs (only slightly if you took Magical Knack, but every bit counts I guess). On the other hand, the Magus can cast in Armor naturally (without having to spend absurd amounts of money on bracers), and has the ability to buff while making full attacks.

I guess for me, it basically comes down to action economy. But moreso than that, the Eldritch Knight doesn't really start pulling away from the Magus until around 11th level or so, when it laps the Magus in spell progression. Given that most games don't get much farther than that, it kinda seems like I'd be asking myself constantly why I wasn't just playing a magus and saving myself the trouble of trying to quicken spells to emulate him.

Of course, I would LOVE to start at levels when the Eldritch Knight already has access to 7th+ spells, so if you ever need an extra in any of those games you play at higher levels, don't hesitate to add me! :)

[Weirdo]

I don't think it's fair to accept that Prestige Classes will only pay off after level 12 if many games never get there and the overwhelming majority of play-hours are spent in the lower levels.

Prestige Classes are in the CRB and the APG, which indicates - correctly, I think - that they should be enjoyable in most games. Most games do not run through levels 9-20; even the ones that do reach level 20 often have a long slog through low levels during which the Prestige Classes are much less fun. Designing classes that only work in the highest levels is like making merfolk a core race and saying people shouldn't try playing them unless you're running a maritime campaign.

I wouldn't be surprised if more pathfinder sessions are played with Mythic characters than characters in levels 12+, and Mythic is supposed to be a variant playstyle!

Obviously because of the very concept Prestige Classes take a few levels to come together but they shouldn't still be painful to play at level 9.

[thejeff]

Weirdo wrote:

I don't think it's fair to accept that Prestige Classes will only pay off after level 12 if many games never get there and the overwhelming majority of play-hours are spent in the lower levels.

Prestige Classes are in the CRB and the APG, which indicates - correctly, I think - that they should be enjoyable in most games. Most games do not run through levels 9-20; even the ones that do reach level 20 often have a long slog through low levels during which the Prestige Classes are much less fun. Designing classes that only work in the highest levels is like making merfolk a core race and saying people shouldn't try playing them unless you're running a maritime campaign.

I wouldn't be surprised if more pathfinder sessions are played with Mythic characters than characters in levels 12+, and Mythic is supposed to be a variant playstyle!

Obviously because of the very concept Prestige Classes take a few levels to come together but they shouldn't still be painful to play at level 9.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean the proper solution is an ugly hack like SLA qualifications.

[StabbittyDoom]

thejeff wrote:

Weirdo wrote:

I don't think it's fair to accept that Prestige Classes will only pay off after level 12 if many games never get there and the overwhelming majority of play-hours are spent in the lower levels.

Prestige Classes are in the CRB and the APG, which indicates - correctly, I think - that they should be enjoyable in most games. Most games do not run through levels 9-20; even the ones that do reach level 20 often have a long slog through low levels during which the Prestige Classes are much less fun. Designing classes that only work in the highest levels is like making merfolk a core race and saying people shouldn't try playing them unless you're running a maritime campaign.

I wouldn't be surprised if more pathfinder sessions are played with Mythic characters than characters in levels 12+, and Mythic is supposed to be a variant playstyle!

Obviously because of the very concept Prestige Classes take a few levels to come together but they shouldn't still be painful to play at level 9.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean the proper solution is an ugly hack like SLA qualifications.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

(In other words, throwing out the SLA solution just because you might get a better one latter is counter-productive.)

[graystone]

thejeff wrote:

Weirdo wrote:

I don't think it's fair to accept that Prestige Classes will only pay off after level 12 if many games never get there and the overwhelming majority of play-hours are spent in the lower levels.

Prestige Classes are in the CRB and the APG, which indicates - correctly, I think - that they should be enjoyable in most games. Most games do not run through levels 9-20; even the ones that do reach level 20 often have a long slog through low levels during which the Prestige Classes are much less fun. Designing classes that only work in the highest levels is like making merfolk a core race and saying people shouldn't try playing them unless you're running a maritime campaign.

I wouldn't be surprised if more pathfinder sessions are played with Mythic characters than characters in levels 12+, and Mythic is supposed to be a variant playstyle!

Obviously because of the very concept Prestige Classes take a few levels to come together but they shouldn't still be painful to play at level 9.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean the proper solution is an ugly hack like SLA qualifications.

Not everyone though of it as "an ugly hack" though. There where several of us that thought that if made sense that innately magical people could/should be able to do things like take arcane strike.

[Arachnofiend]

Tels wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Tels wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Tels wrote:

I have to wonder if this FAQ wasn't changed to make something in Occult Mysteries look better, or to make it so something in Occult Mysteries doesn't break something.

Kineticist is hosed by this, as they don't have spells at all, but they do have SLAs.

Every other class in the playtest casts real spells but they aren't arcane or divine, so they never would have benefited from arcane strike or the PrCs.

I think it's more likely that people didn't want Arcane Strike on Core Rogues and Gnomes in CorePFS.

It didn't really affect kineticists either way as their SLAs weren't arcane or divine so they typically couldn't qualify for any prestige class. Though, I guess they could have qualified for some of the crafting feats.

Kineticist damage is really low without Arcane Strike via a cantrip trait. Now they don't even have that option.

Not sure if you've kept up with the Kineticist thread, but Kineticists are getting a bump in the final release.

I am aware, but that doesn't help me right now with my PFS Kineticist that I have been playing and enjoying.

[Rynjin]

Rhedyn wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

I'll believe you when you show me his to hit bonus without silly counterproductive plans like Simuladragojar.

OK. Well I'm going to go dual talented human 20 point buy.

Starting stats:
18 str
12 dex
14 con
17 int
8 wis
8 cha

Let's put all 5 level increases into int. No tomes. Assume +6 stat items
Strength starts at 24.
Buffs: Haste, form of the dragon III (or shape-change), greater heroism. You may even want to use transformation if ALL you plan to-do is hit things

16 BAB + 12 strength + 5 amulet + 1 haste + 4 greater heroism - 2 size = +36 to-hit

OK now for attacks patterns (with arcane strike + no PA)
Bite +36 for 2d8+27
2 claws +36 for 2d6+21
2 wings +31 for 1d8+15
tail +31 for 2d6+27

(with arcane strike + PA)
Bite +31 for 2d8+42
2 claws +31 for 2d6+31
2 wings +26 for 1d8+20
tail +26 for 2d6+42

I can live with that.

Attack bonus seems legit, though I think you're a mite off on damage. 12x1.5 for Bite = 18 +5 Amulet is only +23 damage, +17 on the claws, and +11 for Wings and Tail. I think you got confused about Heroism/Greater, neither of which add to damage.

Power Attack would bump that to +38 on the Bite, +27 on the claws, and +16 on the tail and wings.

So a very steep damage drop there. Plus it's coupled with a very big downside: Huge creatures are hard to fit places. So oftentimes you'll want it to be Shapechange putting you in a Medium or Large form instead. Though a case can be made for Elemental Body IV for an Earth Elemental, since it sidesteps those problems by having Earthglide.

But the sad part is you're still behind the Magus I mentioned ealier by a good bit, and this is only really feasible at 17th+ since that's when Shapechange becomes available.

Rhedyn wrote:

Quote:

What's your AC?

Let's estimate!

8 base + 8 nat + 5 enh nat + 4 shield + 8 armor + 5 def + 4 dex = 42

or 37 if you can't find someway to get a barkskin like effect AND a greater magic fang like effect.

You forgot the -2 AC from size. This AC is actually pretty low for 20th, I'm kinda surprised. I currently have an 18th level Str based Monk who has some odd 54 AC with Barkskin (call it an even 50 since he's Gestalt and is benefiting from the Brawler's AC bonus in addition).

Even some of the CR 20 monsters with a lower attack bonus (like the Balor) are hitting you on a 9 or less.

Note I'm not saying this is bad, it just kinda proves my point: Eldritch Knights, even at their best and fully buffed, are kinda mediocre for any level, even if they are technically viable. Which isn't what a Prestige Class should be like.

[Rhedyn]

@Rynjin

You forgot arcane strike (19 CL = +4 damage)

8 base AC includes the size penalty. (10 -2)

EK is a wizard that can go into melee. By that level you probably are not using melee as your first option. This EK has 28 int without tomes.

Prestige classes are for campaigns and groups where the iconic character builds would be viable. They aren't the best, but they are versatile and could handle whatever the AP throws their way.

[Rynjin]

The thing is, why wouldn't you just play a straight Wizard if casting is your first resort? Considering a well placed spell can wreck an encounter, you have to be specifically holding back if it ever comes to meleeing.