Review My Class: Spellfist


Homebrew and House Rules

The Exchange

I have a lot of comments I could preface with, but instead I'll just post the class and let you take a look.

Spellfist

Now I know what you're going to say, and that's probably because I've spend hours over the span of weeks tweaking this class and you just skimmed it in 30 seconds. Give it some thought, consider other actual existing classes, run some numbers, and get back to me.


Very underpowered compared to a Magus, even an unarmed one. Doesn't have the action economy boost of spell combat, and needs to use more resources with spellburn instead of getting an extra pool with which he can regain spells (among other things). The action economy is just terrible in general with Spell burn requiring a standard action to use (makes all the "end for free" effects meh), and silly stuff like unbalance making a move action after an attack, essentially turning a full attack opportunity into an attack+trip. Most of the other techniques are just copies of ranger combat styles.

In fact, I see very little reason to play this instead of an unarmed Kensai, unless I really want a CHA casting Magus (which is meh because of how the magus works).

The Exchange

That's a very valid perspective, Knave. However, I would point out that the spellfist has a few distinct advantages.
Firstly, in early game the spellfist is going to have a better AC and his spellburn may arguably be slightly more powerful than a small arcane pool and a few first-level spells.
Secondly, the spellfist doesn't need ever-increasing Dex to build his full TWF routine and has better bonus feat access.
Thirdly, the spellfist's techniques are certainly quite different from magus arcana, at very least offering variety if not advantage.

However, that said, I certainly do see your point about a magus wielding a spell and a weapon being stronger than simply two elemental weapons. That's something I'll have to consider.

EDIT: Actually, I think it balances out. Spell combat only scales insofar as single magus spells scale, so I'd say a magus with a +3 flaming longsword tossing around 3rd-level spells (on average) vs a spellfist smacking for +4d6 on every attack is about right.


Yeah, Magus arcanas are actually great, while the techniques are either meh or free combat feats. Like, think about this one for a minute:

Quote:
The spellfist may end his spell burn as a free action in order to gain an enhancement bonus to strength for one round equal to +2 for every die of spell burn bonus damage after the first.

2 points of strength bonus gives +1 daamage (and +1 to hit). The spellburn you end gives at least +1d6 more than that. The DEX one is silly for the same reasons (you sacrifice the AC boost from the spell burn to get... an AC and reflex boost that's one less for one turn).

Spellburn may be stronger, but the cost is really high (both in slots and action economy). You also just plain don't have enough class features for a 6th level caster.

The spell fist also is just plain incapable of pulling off the shenanigans a Magus can. Things like Spell Combat+True strike for incredible combat maneuvers for example.

There's also, dare I say, not enough fisting going on.

Verdant Wheel

ok. F-I-S-T.

Spoiler:

On a serious note, may I suggest:

Spellfist

1 - Bonus Feat, Prescience, Spell burn +1
2 - Technique, Spellstrike
3 - Bonus Feat
4 - Technique
5 - Spell burn +2
6 - Technique
7 - Bonus Feat
8 - Technique
9 - Spell burn +3
10- Advanced Techniques (?), Technique
11- Bonus Feat
12- Technique
13- Spell burn +4
14- Technique
15- Bonus Feat
16- Technique
17- Spell burn +5
18- Technique
19- Bonus Feat
20- Technique, Spell Inferno (?)

Bonus Feats - "monks" need feats - you could include metamagic feats
Spell burn - make it swift to activate, and/or consider using Grit as a model! (example: whenever you confirm a critical hit using spellstrike, regain 1 point of spell burn). Change name to "spellfire" in this case? Or you could use Rage as a model - while spellburnin, bonus to concentration checks to cast combat spells? No matter what you do, I would put this feature front and center...

hope that helps.

The Exchange

I agree that the class is flat right now and needs additional class features. I've mostly been focused on getting spellburn right thus far. I guess it's more of a class skeleton than a full class at the moment.

As for the techniques:
Momentary Strength - it may be a poor combat choice normally, but if for instance he becomes ensnared or a companion is pinned under a boulder, the sudden burst of strength could be very useful. Additionally if you're spellburning with fire and suddenly a fire elemental pops up (maybe a clever wizard summoned it), you can trash your useless fire gloves and just punch the thing out of the park. It's also useful for the Shove and Unbalance techniques.
Momentary Reflexes - it may not be highly useful for AC, but for the spellfist that actually is wearing armor, or the one who wants to start a new burn the same turn, this AC boost could be quite helpful. But more importantly, with a poor base Reflex save, a sudden boost to reflex saves might just save your neck.

Edit: Thanks for the suggestions, Rainzax. That would certainly fill it out more.

Grand Lodge

IMO: It is a neat idea, to me it's just "meh".

I get so bored with the rogue/alchemist build (talent every other level), maybe its the spellfist lack of flavor text that I don't get the idea.

With a name like "Spellfist", I want to punch someone in the face and have a fireball go off. Maybe it's just me.

I have to argue with rainzax. I don't think it needs a feat freak out like a monk or fighter every other level. I think it needs a built in guide to perform the class.

If it's build on a magus chassis its not bad, but I will tell you I am kind of bored after reading it.

Its a decent start but needs flavor and something special.

The Exchange

I definitely understand your perspective, Garnath. I was hyperfocused on a few core mechanics and hadn't really gotten to adding the skin and flash. I'm open to suggestions for what might add both function and flavor.

Grand Lodge

Change up the names a bit.
"Momentary" is a bit repetitive for being only a moment :).

Grand Lodge

Can you explain to me why you went with the every other level talent system?

The Exchange

I tried on a lot of talent systems (every 3rd level, every other level starting at 1st, 1st+2nd & then every other, etc), but in the end I thought this fit best. It gives the spellfist access to things like TWF at the appropriate level, it's frequent enough to give him a strong array of options, and starting it at 4th ensures that you can use those "damage dice after the first" as soon as they're accessible.

I had considered changing things like Momentary Swiftness and Momentary Radiance (that grant bonuses past 1 round) to "lingering" or something. Would that help?


D-Kal wrote:

I agree that the class is flat right now and needs additional class features. I've mostly been focused on getting spellburn right thus far. I guess it's more of a class skeleton than a full class at the moment.

As for the techniques:
Momentary Strength - it may be a poor combat choice normally, but if for instance he becomes ensnared or a companion is pinned under a boulder, the sudden burst of strength could be very useful. Additionally if you're spellburning with fire and suddenly a fire elemental pops up (maybe a clever wizard summoned it), you can trash your useless fire gloves and just punch the thing out of the park. It's also useful for the Shove and Unbalance techniques.
Momentary Reflexes - it may not be highly useful for AC, but for the spellfist that actually is wearing armor, or the one who wants to start a new burn the same turn, this AC boost could be quite helpful. But more importantly, with a poor base Reflex save, a sudden boost to reflex saves might just save your neck.

Edit: Thanks for the suggestions, Rainzax. That would certainly fill it out more.

All situations you could handle better if you didn't burn a spell on getting that damage bonus to begin with.

Look, I'm not trying to be too hard on you but compare to other 6th casters like alchemist, inquisitor, magus and bard. Notice how they all have an extra pool of powers to use on top of spells, instead of cannibalizing spell points further.

I'd actually give the guy a Ki pool, and have techniques be like, a few unique ones+ninja and quinggong powers+monk/rangerbonus feats. A lot less non-unique stuff to type and actually gives some versatility to the guy.


Why not make it a Magus archetype?

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I agree with Zhayne. I don't understand why it needs to be a whole class. It has almost no class features and borrows most of its class features from the magus. Even the talent pool is basically a bunch of bonus feats. So, it would be better off as an archetype. Designing classes is really hard, anyway.

Verdant Wheel

probably gunna agree with GarnathFrostmantle and other posters that the class really needs to identify itself (read: differentiate itself from Magus) by a unique class feature that adds new or a novel use of old mechanics.

Maybe it could get 4-level spells, but be able to cast them as spell-like abilities that never provoke while using *Spellfire?

Grand Lodge

It is a great start. As my alter ego "Amora Game" I am looking at this intently for a possible class for Project HoF. But it needs some definition on its use. What is the purpose and how will it be different from cross classing, or as a magus archetype?

Since it's a monk/magus combo according to your profile, it needs to show a little more monk if it is actually a hybrid class.

Add a touch of qigong monk maybe?


GarnathFrostmantle wrote:
....As my alter ego "Amora Game" I am looking at this intently for a possible class for Project HoF...

Tell me more Greg!

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Echoing Zhayne/Cyrad, an unarmed magus archetype would be cool.

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