roysier |
I have 3 level 10 characters I'm jonsing to play and so far this season through the first 18 scenarios there has been only 2 7-11 scenarios. That is lower then any previous season.
What gives with this?
I know there may be a push for more lower level content but at the expense of experienced players wanting to continue to play seems like a big sacrifice.
TriOmegaZero |
7-11's have been consistently on the less reported side of scenario play. I'm looking for the specific comments about this subject John has made, get back to you in a moment.
Edit: See here. I can confirm that there are more 7-11 scenarios in the pipeline. Perhaps less than you want, unfortunately.
roysier |
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If that's the case I guess we should now consider character retired at level 10, since there will be barely anything to play after the 5-9's. That really sucks.
In fact it pisses me off so much I'm thinking of dropping everything I do in PFS. It severely hampers long term players who have played just about everything out there.
Disturbed1 |
Over the past couple years, we have seen many more people clammoring for more low level play for the exact reason you state, roysier. Theyve played almost everything out there and have not enough material to get new characters started.
Im hoping with the introduction of the Core Campaign, this can be alleviated a little bit and perhaps we can go back to seeing more higher level scenarios being released.
Also, keep in mind that Season 6 still has 5 months worth of scenarios to be released, so there are hopefully a couple more 7-11s coming down the track!
roysier |
5 7-11's is what the pattern has been the past 2 seasons, I'm hoping they are just pushed back in the season and not decreased.
I have the opposite impact I keep starting character after character because previous character outgrow tiers and they all get stuck at level 10.
This is a serious damper on my PFS enthusiasm.
Pirate Rob |
I feel ya Roy, I've got an 11, a 10 and 2 9s which have seen almost no play this season.
I was wondering about the accuracy of your statement though so I went to take a look.
# of 7-11s in first 18 scenarios of a season/Total # in a season
Season 0 : 0/4
Season 1 : 7/8
Season 2 : 7/9
Season 3 : 2/5
Season 4 : 4/6
Season 5 : 3/5
Seasons 6 : 2/?
Ignoring season 0 we're as low as season 3, and may end up as low as 2/4 (due to being short a month in this season due to the early GenCon)
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Some other thoughts:
It's not the same as PFS scenarios but we've got Emerald Spire at least, with 6 levels playable at 10.
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Roy: assuming I could twist John Compton's arm and make the 25 scenarios a year whatever tier you wanted, how should I twist it?
Judging by last season, the current balance is:
Level 1: 1
Level 1-5: 8
Level 3-7: 6
Level 5-9: 5
Level 7-11: 5
I think the current split is about right with the 25 scenario constraint. In my perfect world, my arm twisting clones John and we get 11 extra scenarios a year, and fewer typos.
With 36 Scenarios I'd go something like:
Level 1: 1
Level 1-5: 11
Level 3-7: 9
Level 5-9: 7
Level 7-11: 5
Level 9-13: 3
Nefreet |
How many retired characters do you have?
I just retired my 6th character at DunDraCon. And I have an 11th, a 10th, and a 9th that are quickly on their way as well.
And there are still 7-11s from earlier seasons that I've yet to play or GM. And high level modules, too (plus Emerald Spire, and I have only a handful of AP chronicles).
Surely it can't be that bad?
roysier |
Actually it is that bad, maybe not as bad as Pirate Rob who has exactly one 7-11 out of all scenarios to play
I have levels 15,12,10,10,10,10,9,7,7,7,6,5,3,2,2,2
Some of my level 10's I put on slow track. But now that I have too many characters in that range I will stop doing that. also I almost never apply GM credits to characters since I would rather play them up then get the free bumps.
There are 4 7-11's from earlier season I have not played.
All modules over level 8 up to Tomb of the Iron Medusa has been played.
There is Emerald Spire upper levels to play.
So in essence for the most part I'm relying on new material to play. But if that new material is lacking 7-11's from my perspective I'm pretty screwed by not being able to play my level 10's, the characters i really want to play.
Pirate Rob |
Nefreet:
While I imagine your question was directed at Roy, I can share my data easily.
I track my characters at the above google doc. The first tab is characters and the second tab is scenarios.
There is currently 1 7-11 scenario I haven't played. (I'm scheduled to play it tonight.)
I've played
Thornkeep: Sanctum of a Lost Age
Realm of the Fellnight Queen
Cult of the Ebon Destroyers
No Response from Deepmar
The Harrowing
Curse of the Riven Sky
Doom Comes to Dustpawn
The Ruby Phoenix Tournament
Academy of Secrets
Tomb of the Iron Medusa
The Moonscar
There are some AP legs available to me at that level, as well as a couple Emerald Spire, but that's it.
TriOmegaZero |
I honestly can't believe I'm the only one in this boat. Maybe it's a minority but there are people in this boat.
You are welcome to compare notes with me.
I count three 7-11 scenarios I have yet to play, and at least one I have read as GM prep.
skyshark Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest |
I honestly can't believe I'm the only one in this boat. Maybe it's a minority but there are people in this boat.
I would imagine the majority of us are not in this boat because we did not slow track our characters in an already limited 7-11 scenario range. I like to play my characters too, but the realization kicked in that if I want to level them past 9, then I need to apply GM credit to them every once in a while.
Personally I think your expectations of being able to retire an additional 8 characters that are in the 7-11 range by only playing and not GMing are unrealistic.
As trends show with the number of 7-11s that have been produced for the past six years, that should provide you with some expectation management for leveling.
Long story short, you are putting yourself in this boat through personal decisions of slow tracking multiple characters at high tier and not applying GM credit
skyshark Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest |
skyshark Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest |
My hiccup always seems to be the mid levels. People wind up playing 3-7s as soon as they can to fill out a table for higher level characters , and the group burns through enough of them to make the geek soduku for getting through level 6 more than once a little rough.
I am a personal fan of playing through a tier until you level out of it, essentially playing everything high tier outside of the 1-5s. Luckily as a store coordinator for a store that usually has 1 table a week with regulars that started at level 1, I can control that by not offering a 3-7 until they are level 5.
roysier |
roysier wrote:I honestly can't believe I'm the only one in this boat. Maybe it's a minority but there are people in this boat.Personally I think your expectations of being able to retire an additional 8 characters that are in the 7-11 range by only playing and not GMing are unrealistic.
That's not really my expectation. My expectation is a chance to play my level 10 characters more then 3 times a year.
Sebastian Hirsch Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria |
As someone who likes the higher level stuff, I can sympathize, but IIRC Paizo knows pretty well that substantially fewer people play high level adventures and scenarios.
Apparently they sell far fewer volumes of the higher level adventure paths volumes.
Some characters will never reach higher levels, from a combination of player loss, character death and people willing to play more than one character chances are, that it is far harder to run those 7-11 scenarios.
My level 5 Hunter has 5 not yet applied chronicles from excellent 7-11 scenarios (and that Bonekeep 3 chronicle (not a 7-11) is my chronicle No. 1^^) and frankly that can be nerve wracking. That character already died once, so the loss of those chronicles was a real threat. And obviously if chronicles from 3-7 and higher level scenarios get applied to level 1 characters... it doesn't really help increasing the number of characters, that actually can play those scenarios.
John Compton Developer |
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The Season 6 schedule includes six opportunities for level 10+ play: two Tier 1–11 Specials and four Tier 7–11 scenarios. There are fewer Tier 7–11 scenarios this season for a few reasons.
More Tier 1–5: Last year there was a very large, sustained, and widespread request for more Tier 1–5 adventures. Low-level adventures allow people to play their own characters (rather than a pregenerated character in a high-level adventure), and they're also conducive to seating experienced players alongside beginners to pass on tips and community values. Play numbers on the least-played Tier 1–5 scenarios tend to be higher than numbers for the most popular Tier 7–11 adventures.
As a result, I shifted things around in Season 6 to provide the equivalent of one 1st-level-appropriate adventure per month (on average, with February having two and May having none). Overall, responses to this adjustment have been positive. Roysier, while I do believe there's a lot to be said for continuing to provide more Tier 1–5 adventures than any other tier, I think your reaction here is a good reminder that there's still some high level play that the more dedicated participants are looking for.
Shorter Season: Because Gen Con starts in late July, we're launching Season 7 a month early. This has the added effect of making Season 6 only 11 months long, meaning our numbers for some of the higher tier adventures are going to be lower this year.
JohnF Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West |
Paizo, of course, have access to the reporting statistics.
I would suspect that, if you were to go back and look at the numbers over the years (or maybe just over the last four years), the number of seats reported at 7-11 tables would be less than 15% of the total. That would mean that if we get as many as four 7-11 scenarios in a year that's already a larger slice of the pie than is warranted.
wakedown |
Hmmm... proposal:
Once a character has reached level 10, they are no longer bound by same restrictions that typically prohibit the replay of scenarios for credit - the character is free to use for credit during any replay in the 10-11 subtier of any 7-11 scenario already played by another character of the player. The one limitation in this replay is that the character does not receive any of the additional boons or items listed on the chronicle of the replayed scenario, but simply receives the XP, gold and prestige from playing the scenario.
This wouldn't affect the majority of PFS play (90%+ of it), and would most likely barely ever affect a newer player, whose first play-through experience could potentially be "compromised" by a veteran spoiling the scenario alongside them.
John Compton Developer |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmmm... proposal:
Once a character has reached level 10, they are no longer bound by same restrictions that typically prohibit the replay of scenarios for credit - the character is free to use for credit during any replay in the 10-11 subtier of any 7-11 scenario already played by another character of the player. The one limitation in this replay is that the character does not receive any of the additional boons or items listed on the chronicle of the replayed scenario, but simply receives the XP, gold and prestige from playing the scenario.
This wouldn't affect the majority of PFS play (90%+ of it), and would most likely barely ever affect a newer player, whose first play-through experience could potentially be "compromised" by a veteran spoiling the scenario alongside them.
Hmmm…while this seems to open up more play opportunities and ways to play level 10+ characters, it also de-incentivizes the creation of new Tier 7–11 scenarios because there would be more than enough out there to replay under this model. I am (and I think I can fairly speak for Mike on this topic) also very disinclined to wield replay as a solution to problems. We have a few exceptions and the Core Campaign, but that's plenty.
My personal opinion is that replaying a scenario is less "special" than playing it for the first time, and I would rather reward those who have reached the prestigious double digits by giving them new awesome adventures rather than making them tread old territory.
BigNorseWolf |
One problem is that getting a group for eyes is an enormous pain. You don't just have to get to level 12, you almost need to get two groups to 12 so that the person who hits 12 first has a second 7-11 character to play so you can scheduel games for the second person to hit 12 , and then THEY need a level 7+ character ...
Thrawn007 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
Roy: assuming I could twist John Compton's arm and make the 25 scenarios a year whatever tier you wanted, how should I twist it?
Judging by last season, the current balance is:
Level 1: 1
Level 1-5: 8
Level 3-7: 6
Level 5-9: 5
Level 7-11: 5** spoiler omitted **
My ideal would be (yes, I know they last one won't happen):
Level 1: 1Level 1-5: 8
Level 3-7: 6
Level 5-9: 5
level 7-11: 4
Level 9-13: 1
Basically, very close to last season. I think they about nailed it.
wakedown |
My personal opinion is that replaying a scenario is less "special" than playing it for the first time...
Absolutely true. I'd hope this wouldn't mean to stop printing a handful 7-11s each year.
.. and I would rather reward those who have reached the prestigious double digits by giving them new awesome adventures rather than making them tread old territory.
Totally agree!
However, for some of the hardcore players, they've only gotten 13 scenarios for 7-11 play in the past 2 1/2 years and are probably subject to the variations of individual gameday musters with play of about half of these happening at levels 7, 8, 9 and the other half at levels 10, 11.
So someone who's "played it all" with say 4 characters around level 10 is having to wait a year for 6 scenarios to come out and have a chance at leveling one of those 4 characters. He'll take 4 years to level them all at the current rate (and that's assuming more characters don't reach level 10 in the next 4 years). The backlog grows faster than the scenarios come available.
What are other options? Or are you suggesting the plan is to release a lot more 7-11s in an upcoming season? :)
John Compton Developer |
What are other options? Or are you suggesting the plan is to release a lot more 7-11s in an upcoming season? :)
It's not entirely out of the picture. The Season 7 tier breakdown is not set in stone at this time, and I'm not so hubristic that I would claim Season 6 is the Perfect spread of adventures by tier.
Thrawn007 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
25 scenarios does make it tough.
Ideally, with a level 1 replayable, and 10 1-5 scenarios, that gives enough content to get two characters playable at the next tier.
Then 6 3-7 scenarios allows one character to get from level 3 to level 5, becoming eligible for the next tier.
Then 6 5-9 scenarios allows one character to get from level 5-7 to be eligible for the next tier.
Of course, this accounts for 23 scenarios, only leaving 2 slots for 7-11's.
skyshark Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
wakedown wrote:What are other options? Or are you suggesting the plan is to release a lot more 7-11s in an upcoming season? :)It's not entirely out of the picture. The Season 7 tier breakdown is not set in stone at this time, and I'm not so hubristic that I would claim Season 6 is the Perfect spread of adventures by tier.
Put the upcoming RPG superstar to work and have him make a few 7-11s to take the workload off of Paizo or be flogged.
Avatar-1 |
Had a few people come into our chat room saying they'd lost chronicles for their early-level characters from playing a long time ago and were about to abandon their characters - they had 5 "lost" scenarios between them.
We strongly advised them to chase up those sheets and get their character levelled up as far as they can with games they've played, as if they don't, it exacerbates the problem of having too many players playing 1-5 for eternity.
This is just a recent example, but it's not unusual - players need more encouragement from existing players, GMs and VOs to stick with playing a single character until they get to a point where they can keep multiple characters 3 levels apart on an ongoing basis. Level 1 retraining exists now; they can take advantage of that if they need to - but no more. Please, guys. We beg you.
Mark Stratton Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis |