combat maneuver's and natural weapons

[Bandw2]

do making combat maneuver's as part of a full attack count as a manufactured weapon like an unarmed strike is? what if the weapon you used was a natural attack, what happens then?

[Chess Pwn]

why? What do you mean?

[Avoron]

Combat maneuvers (such as trip, disarm, and sunder) that are used in place of melee attacks during a full-attack action count as whatever type of weapon (natural or manufactured) you performed them with.

There are some circumstances, such as the feat Quick Drag, in which you perform a combat maneuver during a full-attack action without actually using a weapon to make the maneuver. In this case, my best bet would be to treat it as the same type as the attack it replaced. However, it seems RAW is silent on this matter.

[Bandw2]

Chess Pwn wrote:

why? What do you mean?

because the game tends to act like iteratives in general are manufactured, and that you get the -5 to-hit and 1/2 strength when using them. unarmed strikes for instance cause this on natural weapons.

edit: also, then what's the point of not performing combat maneuver's whenever you make a natural attack?

[Bandw2]

bump, i'd like more opinions on this.

do i get at level 6 a +6/+1 combat maneuver, and then can make 2 +6 natural attacks? or do I get +6/+1/+1/+1 unless I get the multiattack feat?

[thorin001]

Okay, let's assume that you have 2 claws and a bite, and are using armor spikes as your manufactured weapon. You have 4 possible attacks. 1 with your armor spikes at BAB, and 3 natural attacks at -5. Any or all can be used for a trip, disarm, and/or sunder attack. Remember that any penalties to attack also apply to CMB.

[Bandw2]

thorin001 wrote:

Okay, let's assume that you have 2 claws and a bite, and are using armor spikes as your manufactured weapon. You have 4 possible attacks. 1 with your armor spikes at BAB, and 3 natural attacks at -5. Any or all can be used for a trip, disarm, and/or sunder attack. Remember that any penalties to attack also apply to CMB.

BUT, i don't have a manufactured weapon, i'm wondering if i can use my natural attacks for combat maneuver's and if they would use interative progression and then use my normal claw attacks.

[Bob Bob Bob]

We're talking about the specific subset of maneuvers you can make in place of a melee attack, yes? Then the answer is clear. You replaced a melee attack. Would that attack have been manufactured or natural? The maneuver counts as the same. So you can +6 claw/maneuver +6 claw/maneuver or +6 weapon/maneuver +1 weapon/maneuver +1 claw/maneuver +1 claw/maneuver.

[Bandw2]

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

We're talking about the specific subset of maneuvers you can make in place of a melee attack, yes? Then the answer is clear. You replaced a melee attack. Would that attack have been manufactured or natural? The maneuver counts as the same. So you can +6 claw/maneuver +6 claw/maneuver or +6 weapon/maneuver +1 weapon/maneuver +1 claw/maneuver +1 claw/maneuver.

hmm and what about ones that do not require weapons?

[Bob Bob Bob]

Let's do the list.

Bull Rush, standard action or in place of a melee attack at the end of a charge.
Dirty Trick, standard action.
Disarm, in place of a melee attack.
Drag, standard action.
Grapple, standard action.
Overrun, standard action.
Reposition, standard action.
Steal, standard action.
Sunder, in place of a melee attack.
Trip, in place of a melee attack.

Next time I expect you to do your homework yourself.

So you can't combine a full attack with any of the ones that don't replace a melee attack because they all use a standard action. There's a few ways to do them without that but I can't think of any that aren't a rider effect on a normal attack (grab, trip, shield slam). Everything else is "in place of a melee attack", so you need to choose what kind of melee attack you're doing (before replacing it).

[Bandw2]

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Let's do the list.

Bull Rush, standard action or in place of a melee attack at the end of a charge.
Dirty Trick, standard action.
Disarm, in place of a melee attack.
Drag, standard action.
Grapple, standard action.
Overrun, standard action.
Reposition, standard action.
Steal, standard action.
Sunder, in place of a melee attack.
Trip, in place of a melee attack.

Next time I expect you to do your homework yourself.

So you can't combine a full attack with any of the ones that don't replace a melee attack because they all use a standard action. There's a few ways to do them without that but I can't think of any that aren't a rider effect on a normal attack (grab, trip, shield slam). Everything else is "in place of a melee attack", so you need to choose what kind of melee attack you're doing (before replacing it).

quick dirty trick let's me replace the highest BAB attack with a dirty trick, this is actually specifically what this all pertains to, what happens if i dirty trick with quick dirty trick with natural weapons?

[Yure]

So say your BAB was ... +10. Your Dirty Trick would be at +10... Your remaining natural attacks would be at +10 if they are primary. If they are secondary they would be at -5.

[Bob Bob Bob]

Same language as all the others.

Quick Dirty Trick wrote:

Benefit: On your turn, you can perform a single dirty trick combat maneuver in place of one of your melee attacks. You must choose the melee attack with the highest base attack bonus to make the dirty trick combat maneuver.

Bolding mine. Pick a melee attack, replace with Dirty Trick. First you need to choose what your melee attacks are before you can replace one. This isn't some quantum superposition thing, you need to actually know what your attacks are before you can replace one.

[Bandw2]

hmm, don't know why my brain didn't perceive it that way, seems pretty clear now, thanks.