Min / maxers making dice rolls pointless.


Advice


Running a game for a group of hard core group of players and it's getting to the point where I have to roll a 20 to hit them and they still have ways to counter that. My issue is should I crank up the cr of fights or what? Cause at this point I could just read the ap to them just saying they win the fight with the bad guy and it would be about the same. And I guess I would like to know how they find it fun to just cream every fight with out any challenge.


More info please:
Adventure path?
Level?
Mythic?
Third party?
# of players?
Classes of players?

Grand Lodge

UNless this is, somehow, PFS specific, it probably belongs in the Advice forum, since you are looking for advice...

The Exchange

If it were PFS, you're specifically NOT allowed to tamper with the CR. In fact in earlier days youwould even have to run tactics as written even if it made no sense. Now at least you can change tactics should a player invalidate(by his actions) what you were intending to do as a monster.


Jigsaw wrote:
Running a game for a group of hard core group of players and it's getting to the point where I have to roll a 20 to hit them and they still have ways to counter that. My issue is should I crank up the cr of fights or what? Cause at this point I could just read the ap to them just saying they win the fight with the bad guy and it would be about the same. And I guess I would like to know how they find it fun to just cream every fight with out any challenge.

AP's are not one size fits all. You have to make adjustments for your group.

It helps if you know their characters well enough to boost the encounter without going overboard.

Personally I don't use XP. That lets me avoid leveling people too quickly.

The AP's are pretty good at suggesting where to level up.


Yeah had multiple tabs open and opened post in the wrong thread. But it's the shards of sin ap just hit third level. 4-5 players depending on week. No third party. Class are swashbuckler, alchemist, barb, wizard, witch. There is also a lot of we all have dark vison so we will cast darkness and just pound on these ppl that can't see and other moves like that. So adding more of the same mooks that can't hit them does not help. They get up set cause I don't use xp. My argument is that non of you where in danger of getting hurt so you would not have learned anything from that fight. I'm kinda getting to the point where I wanna recreate all the npcs min/maxing them the way the players did.

The Exchange

So long as this isn't being ran for PFS I would just recommend having them play the adventure 1-2 levels behind the recommended level. Having run this for PFS I was even more disappointed because the chronicle sheets actually use higher level tiers than the AP recommends which makes the adventure boring and absurdly easy.


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Jigsaw wrote:
Yeah had multiple tabs open and opened post in the wrong thread. But it's the shards of sin ap just hit third level. 4-5 players depending on week. No third party. Class are swashbuckler, alchemist, barb, wizard, witch. There is also a lot of we all have dark vison so we will cast darkness and just pound on these ppl that can't see and other moves like that. So adding more of the same mooks that can't hit them does not help. They get up set cause I don't use xp. My argument is that non of you where in danger of getting hurt so you would not have learned anything from that fight. I'm kinda getting to the point where I wanna recreate all the npcs min/maxing them the way the players did.

I have never played shattered star. However using darkness like that is good tactics not min-maxing. What I would do is have some bad guys run away. It is better to retreat than not fight like you want. If they can get to the BBEG or someone higher up they can let the BBEG know what to expect, and he can have something in place to counter the darkness.

Sovereign Court

Jigsaw wrote:
Running a game for a group of hard core group of players and it's getting to the point where I have to roll a 20 to hit them and they still have ways to counter that. My issue is should I crank up the cr of fights or what? Cause at this point I could just read the ap to them just saying they win the fight with the bad guy and it would be about the same. And I guess I would like to know how they find it fun to just cream every fight with out any challenge.

You could, paradoxically, do exactly that. If they're muchkinned to the point that level appropriate CR fights don't challenge them, just resolve the fights as "Congrats, You win again. Mark off a spell or two and some charges from your wands and we'll move on to the next social encounter.."

If your players think that "having system mastery" gives them license to build characters that aren't challenged by the AP/Scenario, you don't have players that are a good fit for PFS. Consider a home game where you're free to change the CRs as necessary.

Silver Crusade

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Sounds like they're using smart tactics to cream every fight. Doesn't sounds like the PCs are Overpowered. Were they to drop their guard and fight with awful tactics, would they still win so easily? If not, then all is fine.

Perhaps up the tactical quality of the foes, just a bit. APs are typically written for players who don't know how to spell T-A-C-T-I-C-S. If you have a tactically-competent group you may need to change things around some.


We just played that adventure. We found most of the fights were easy too but not all were for sure. The GM needed to roll 20 to hit the fighter as the fighter was sword a board fighter but the rest of the party had much lower AC. So the fights would be few attempts against the fighter then gang up on the rest of us. Our character are fairly optimized not over the top. We have lot optimization for out combat encounters as much as we do in combat

How's it possible that your players have a high AC on the witch, wizard and barbarian. Sounds like you may have higher the 15 pt buy of stats. If that is the case a quick fix is to apply the advanced template. Since you aren't using XP you don't need to worry about that part. You don't need to apply the template everywhere just here and there. Keep some easy encounters as even those use resource like Darkness, casters can only cast so many of them.


Are you using XP?

If not, I would just let them trail by one or even two levels behind what the AP calls for.

Sometimes you just have to do it. Player expertise affects APL.


There is no RAW solution for munchkins, so prepare for some offroad DM'ing

First, increase party level by 2, reduce XP/Loot rewards by 1. Eg, if they're level 8, challenge them as if they were APL 10, reward them as if they fought a CR7.

This shouldn't result in a risky increase in difficulty, and the cutback in wealth should, in the long run, leverage their 'metaskills' against their 'item power' and hopefully bring some level of balance back into play.

If it's still pretty bad, increase the APL by another level (don't drop rewards further). Make them do more with less until they hit a good equilibrium.

The other thing you should do is play monsters smarter. Many of them should not charge unto death, leveraging ranged ambushes, difficult/impassable terrain, hard cover, or otherwise not always being within charging distance. Hobgoblins and kobolds should be the worst things ever to try and assault on home turf, with lock offs and murder holes everywhere.

BBEG's should never be within first-round attacking distance of the party, ever, and should never be blithely unaware of their presence. They should be behind numbers of bodyguards designed to punish boss-blitzers along with an entourage so that even the back-line casters should have things to worry about than just casting Fireball on top of the boss 'cause the blitzing fighter "can take the hit".

Vampires and a number of LE baddies love to gloat, but if you've got a hairtrigger party, make them use dominated proxies to gloat/monologue in their stead.

This probably should have been first on my list, but if you want to give a party a challenge, employ 4+ monsters of lower CR, rather than a single higher CR. Make them use takedown tactics. Animals should flank, trip, and make grapple attempts in pack maneuvers. Give them max HP instead of average. I can do -evil- things with large packs of Krenshar to an APL 5 party that I can't do with a hydra, like trip the wizard and drag him into the bushes where he can't see to target others or four-way-flank a melee character.

Last but not least keep a "CyberPsycho Squad" on hand for dealing with totally berserk parties. Every GM should have deathsquads of L16+ Magus & Inquisitors, just in case players go off the deep end. You don't need to kill everyone. Just a few. Again, only for last ditch players that have just totally done messed up to the point where there would be a 'preferably dead' warrant put out for them.


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Jigsaw wrote:
Running a game for a group of hard core group of players and it's getting to the point where I have to roll a 20 to hit them and they still have ways to counter that. My issue is should I crank up the cr of fights or what? Cause at this point I could just read the ap to them just saying they win the fight with the bad guy and it would be about the same. And I guess I would like to know how they find it fun to just cream every fight with out any challenge.

Yeah, you should up the CR, or you should make it more about roleplaying and create challenges that aren't solved by just killing everybody.

Like make the goal not to kill all the invading orc army, but to prevent them from destroying the banner made out of origami swans.

Or bring the witness for the proscecution through a long, treacherous trail of assassins.

You should take a long look at their character sheets. Most extreme character builds that have awesome abilities also have significant shortcomings and weaknesses. Create some targeted encounters. That's how Deep Blue defeated Kasparov. It wasn't exactly designed to be the best possible chess computer: Deep Blue was designed to beat Kasparov.

Jigsaw wrote:
I'm kinda getting to the point where I wanna recreate all the npcs min/maxing them the way the players did.

That's a good idea. Do that.


AP's are written with the expectation that the players are about as competent as the iconics (read: not competent). If you have good players that understand how to play the game then you're going to have to ramp up the combats to challenge them, that's just a fact.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:


Jigsaw wrote:
I'm kinda getting to the point where I wanna recreate all the npcs min/maxing them the way the players did.
That's a good idea. Do that.

I have to disagree with putting in more work than they did to deal with this problem. Max out opponent HP, sure. Tack on a couple extra HD, fine. There are better ways than breaking down and just becoming one of them.

The only characters a GM should ever have to 'min/max' are BBEG's, high profile NPC's, and the Enforcers ("GM's personal law-enforcment PK squad").

For starters, enforce the per-day rule. There is no 8-hour cop-out. On top of that, 8 hours is a long time to get noticed and if they've got only one guy on watch, there's still a good chance that BadThings can happen and interrupt their 'recharge period'. If they're in town, there may not be ANYBODY watching their backs, or bags.

If you're putting them up against BBEG vampire, you're doing something wrong. If you're up against the BBEG vampire, a half dozen of his vampire thralls, and 12-20 ghouls, ghasts, and other nasties, then you're probably in the right boat. If they're all making grapple attempts, you're TOTALLY on MY boat. If they're being dragged into holes and separated from one another, you are my idol.

Silver Crusade

Zourin wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:


Jigsaw wrote:
I'm kinda getting to the point where I wanna recreate all the npcs min/maxing them the way the players did.
That's a good idea. Do that.

I have to disagree with putting in more work than they did to deal with this problem. Max out opponent HP, sure. Tack on a couple extra HD, fine. There are better ways than breaking down and just becoming one of them.

The only characters a GM should ever have to 'min/max' are BBEG's, high profile NPC's, and the Enforcers ("GM's personal law-enforcment PK squad").

For starters, enforce the per-day rule. There is no 8-hour cop-out. On top of that, 8 hours is a long time to get noticed and if they've got only one guy on watch, there's still a good chance that BadThings can happen and interrupt their 'recharge period'. If they're in town, there may not be ANYBODY watching their backs, or bags.

If you're putting them up against BBEG vampire, you're doing something wrong. If you're up against the BBEG vampire, a half dozen of his vampire thralls, and 12-20 ghouls, ghasts, and other nasties, then you're probably in the right boat. If they're all making grapple attempts, you're TOTALLY on MY boat. If they're being dragged into holes and separated from one another, you are my idol.

'

I like this, Played a game once where the GM had a BBEG vampire take over an outlying temple, we got there, were assualt by zombies, and decided to investigate (oh, our stupidity)

half the party failed will saves and were lured off into secluded areas alone. Another one went back to find them, me (paladin) and a the wizard wound up fighting the BBEG alone, while the rest of the party fought off his lesser BBEG vampiress harem. (1 on 1) needless to say, one of the member's never made it out. I still think back to that session haha. the one you described would probably be even more fun. Luckily it was just 2v1 with us vs the master vampire so we managed to pull out forcing him to retreat via that turn to gas BS :P


Redoing the NPCs isn't going to help with the fact that, from what I hear, the PCs themselves are not overpowered. They're using good tactics, and apparently you are playing the NPCs as being very, very dumb. That combination is going to hand your players win after win no matter how you build their opponents.

1) Fighting to the death is absolutely stupid. The instant opponents think they have no hope of winning, they should try to escape. PCs cast Darkness and the opponents hear their fellows getting cut down but can't see? Run away.

2) Dark only lowers the light level by 1 step. Unless the conditions were pretty darn dark to start with, it isn't enough to blind anybody without it. Even if its dark enough for the miss chance to be too high, its still light enough to see to run out in. Are you sure you aren't overplaying the Darkness?

Shadow Lodge

It might just be the way they like to play, in which case, you should probably keep it as it is.

Most dungeons/caves/underground areas are in dim light, so darkness works. Outside areas during the day are normal light, so casting darkness reduces to dim light, and they can't cast it again because the spell specifically says it doesn't stack with itself.

I'm not sure you've been clear - is this a PFS sanctioned AP that you're running in campaign mode? Or is it just a regular game? The answer to this is important.


Zourin wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:


Jigsaw wrote:
I'm kinda getting to the point where I wanna recreate all the npcs min/maxing them the way the players did.
That's a good idea. Do that.

I have to disagree with putting in more work than they did to deal with this problem. Max out opponent HP, sure. Tack on a couple extra HD, fine. There are better ways than breaking down and just becoming one of them.

The only characters a GM should ever have to 'min/max' are BBEG's, high profile NPC's, and the Enforcers ("GM's personal law-enforcment PK squad").

For starters, enforce the per-day rule. There is no 8-hour cop-out. On top of that, 8 hours is a long time to get noticed and if they've got only one guy on watch, there's still a good chance that BadThings can happen and interrupt their 'recharge period'. If they're in town, there may not be ANYBODY watching their backs, or bags.

If you're putting them up against BBEG vampire, you're doing something wrong. If you're up against the BBEG vampire, a half dozen of his vampire thralls, and 12-20 ghouls, ghasts, and other nasties, then you're probably in the right boat. If they're all making grapple attempts, you're TOTALLY on MY boat. If they're being dragged into holes and separated from one another, you are my idol.

I agree with you that it is too much work fully customize every individual in every encounter the PCs will have, turning every Black Hat into a Boss. But it's not out of line though to put some customization into some or all of what might otherwise be a mundane encounter. For instance, it would be perfectly reasonable to suppose that a company of Blood Orcs thought to all take the Blind-Fighting Feat together, and their evil overlord thought to equip the troop formation with a single Eversmoking Bottle. That would give most parties a tactical challenge.

Or look at a dragon's treasure hoard and ask yourself about how a character with all that treasure might decide to equip him or herself. Better yet, what if the Dragon decided to wisely invest his hoard into economic ventures, grant mortages, go into venture capital, gain a monoply on milling facilities and gouge the wheat farmers. You could open a whole new way for a dragon to terrorize the countryside, and what is the Paladin going to do when he find out that the terrorized villagers are not willing to help him slay the dragon not because they're afraid it will eat their daughters, but because it will foreclose on their farm because they're behind on the payments. And it's all perfectly legal. Anyway, that dragon is an important source of liquid capital, and would cause economic chaos if it were slain. You might say the dragon was too big to fail...

I'm sure the DM as have many of us put together some character building, feat acquisition trees that could be easily taken and turned into effective NPCs. All you have to do is pick a level and standardize some equipment lists (or just wing it).

Silver Crusade

If you have trouble with darkness, here are a few thoughts:
1. Use some half-orc and dwarf bad guys. Now they have darkvision too. Half orc is easy to create from human-just lose a feat and a few skill points, add darkvision and ferocity. No need to do it with every bad guy, but a few tough ones will give the PCs a surprise.
2. Have bad guys prep daylight of carry a scroll of it. Darkness is a tactic PCs prepare for. NPCs should too.
3. Two can play the vision game. NPCs can even the playing field with obscuring most dog cloud or acid fog.Bonus points if they include flame oracles who can see through the fog.
4. Retreat, lock a door, and wait for the spell to wear off and/or light some torches to make the spell less effective. If this means the PCs fight multiple encounters at once so much the better.
5. Fireballs don't suffer a miss Chance and don't need to hit AC.

For being unable to hit:
1. Remember to flank and charge whenever possible.
2. Use buff spells like prayer and bless.
3. Consider adding a bard to some encounters.
4. Trip and grapple. CMD is easier to hit than AC and those maneuvers make hitting AC easier.
5. Intimidate. Dazzling display and blistering invective can spread the shaken condition which includes -2 AC.
6. Use debuffs. Ray of exhaustion (or a scroll of waves of fatigue give an AC penalty).
7. Use bets and tanglefoot bags to entangle the PCs. Though attacks are easy.
8. Use touch attacks like alchemical weapons, gunslingers, bolt aces, alchemists,, and some sorcerer or wizard builds.
9. Use spells that don't take attacks rolls. Magic missile, fireball, dragon breath, stone call, sound burst, negative channeling from evil clerics,etc.


Check their character sheets. You're/they're probably doing something wrong.

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