Idea of a 'Face' class


Homebrew and House Rules


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

with the upcoming advent of occult adventures adding psionics to 1st party pathfinder, we have reached 37 classes, slowly but steadily nearing 3.5s level of class bloat. Dont get me wrong i love all the classes, new and old, i just think conceptually, some of them, such as Hunter and warpriest, really have difficulty justifying themselves.

And that got me thinking, what is there left conceptually that hasn't been done between all our classes, the various archetypes there of and multiclassing (heresy i know), and the answer i came up with is a dedicated face class; A class excelling in a social environment who's silver tongue can get you into or out of just about anything. a class whos meditations, taunts and threats could turn enemies against each other and make friends out of foes.

Sure we have skills for that, and the rogue has some perks that enhance them (but come on man, thats the rogue!) But i feel this is something that you could certainly build a class out of, It will need more than that just that certainly, but i think a solid core is there, what do you guys think?


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When I first read the description I thought it meant this face.

But to answer the question:
Bard. And some bard archetypes fit this role perfectly.

This also brings to mind the master spy prestige class.

So I would expect something along those lines.

Also there are a few character types that Pathfinder has not touched on.


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I don't think that there needs to be a dedicated "face" class, as the existing classes do it quite well already, especially in light of the relatively low skill DCs necessary to do it "normally."

An ordinary vanilla bard can easily make a DC 20 check to turn an indifferent person helpful by about 7th level.... 7 ranks in Diplomacy, +3 for Inspire Competence, +4 for stats bonus, and roll a 6 or better. Use a specialist -- add Skill Focus, Persuasive, and a Trait such as Illuminator -- and you might be looking at auto-success at 5th level. Lower if you allow the take 10 rules because you're doing this out of combat.


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Bards are pretty much skill incarnate. Pageant of the Peacock, Versatile Performance, Lore Master and Jack of All Trades along with being Charisma focused makes them faces almost without trying.

If you don't like performing, there are a number of archetypes that do something different and still kick ass at skills. Bards are pretty much the best.

Sovereign Court

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There are already classes that have "Face" written all over them;

* Bard
* Inquisitor
* Investigator

I don't think you can give a class much more face-powers than those without getting into "PCs steamroll everything by social/mind control" complaints.

And if you wanted to make another class more face-y than those, you'd also (for balance/fairness) need to make it worse at other stuff, at which point you'd get a frightfully overspecialized kind of class.

The classes I mentioned do a good job of combining social skill with combat skill and "smart" and "sneaky" skill. They get to participate in just about every part of the game.

A class fully specialized at being Face would mean that the player is quite useless during combat, and combat tends to eat up a lot of realworld game time. I don't think that's a desirable result.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kekkres wrote:

with the upcoming advent of occult adventures adding psionics to 1st party pathfinder, we have reached 37 classes, slowly but steadily nearing 3.5s level of class bloat. Dont get me wrong i love all the classes, new and old, i just think conceptually, some of them, such as Hunter and warpriest, really have difficulty justifying themselves.

And that got me thinking, what is there left conceptually that hasn't been done between all our classes, the various archetypes there of and multiclassing (heresy i know), and the answer i came up with is a dedicated face class; A class excelling in a social environment who's silver tongue can get you into or out of just about anything. a class whos meditations, taunts and threats could turn enemies against each other and make friends out of foes.

Sure we have skills for that, and the rogue has some perks that enhance them (but come on man, thats the rogue!) But i feel this is something that you could certainly build a class out of, It will need more than that just that certainly, but i think a solid core is there, what do you guys think?

After seeing how people can be diplomatic monsters with existing classes, I really don't see a need for a class that's even more devastating in diplomacy/social rolls.

Sovereign Court

a rogue (charlatan) / master spy is pretty much unbeatable in terms of non-magical face guy... if you want magical, straight bard will pretty much outclass anything living or unliving... :)


I think the OP is getting at class features that add to being a party face, not just skills. Honestly, I don't think this kind of class is needed though. Being a party face has more to do with willingness to take on the role, and willingness/ability to role-play. Your skills just back up your words when trying to get NPCs to behave a certain way (depends on the GM though).

Grand Lodge

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I was a big fan of the noble class from the Star Wars RPG. They had some buffs they could use on their allies in battle, but their main focus was out-of-combat. It wasn't just skill bonuses, either; they had actual powers to use to get free money, favors, and other advantages in a social encounter.


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I mean, I can build that exact design with... 6? different classes. Probably more. Let's see...

Rogues can already do that, and several archetypes only make that better.

Swashbucklers are Charisma-based, after all, as their secondary ability. Played properly, all that sword training will go to waste because they use their mouths to avoid more fights than they get involved in.

Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger can absolutely do that.

Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger / Daring Infiltrator Swashbuckler / Cleaner Slayer can do that AND get the Bond Girl.

A Skald will get you into someone's pants, and get you OUT of the resulting fight involving their significant other.

A Bard will do all that AND get you into a threeway with said significant other.

A Bard with the right archetype will start the threeway, and then successfully invite the entire house's staff to the party.

As mentioned above, Master Spy is built around this kind of nonsense.

Heck, a Sorcerer focused on Enchantment spells and the right Bloodline can talk their way out of a dragon's mouth.

And an Oracle can do exactly what the Sorcerer does, with a LIMP.

Yeah, so, totally more than just 6 classes.

---

Also, Paizo is really nowhere NEAR the levels of insanity that 3.5 was, as far as classes go.

OA will add probably 3 entirely-new classes *(Kineticist, Medium, Occultist) and 3 Alternate classes (Spiritualist [Summoner], Psychic [Sorcerer], and Mesmerist [Bard]) bringing the total up to 32 base classes + 6 Alternate Classes, for 38 total classes.

3.X had 51 base classes.

Pathfinder has 20 Prestige classes and 288 Archetypes.

And I'm not even going to TRY and count all the Prestige Classes in 3.5, because... DAYUM!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I even did it with my PFS Summoner who had both Diplomacy and Intimidate up full force thanks to one trait. It was enough for him to fulfill a Chelaxian mission to trash talk a Dragon.

Sovereign Court

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when a Star Wars party has a noble in their midst, especially one that is played properly... boy does it make a difference... you get to feel that your actions matter and you pull together no matter what, and that the mission is about something greater than yourself (e.g. the soldier jumping in front of the noble to take a blaster shot was priceless, back in the good old Living Force days.... :) )

another comment about Star Wars RPG: it's not so much about the arms race for better gear but more about a cause and completing the mission...


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Okay, I lied. I counted.

617

SIX. HUNDRED. AND SEVENTEEN. PRESTIGE CLASSES. IN 3.X!


I don't think a new class is necessarily needed, but a Bard archetype that really emphasizes social skills and manipulation would be nice. Let's say it was called the Manipulator, for lack of a better term.

I don't feel qualified to create it, but it would swap out inspirational performance types (while keeping performance for Versatile Performance, Fascinate, Spellsong, and maybe a couple other uses). The archetype might have half the performance rounds per day available to a vanilla Bard.

The return for the swap would be every 3 levels gaining an Investigator or Rogue Talent from among those dealing with social interaction, plus a few custom Manipulator talents invented and others taken from Master Spy features (which is awful as a PrC for much the same reason Rogues are very weak).

The other substitution I see would be that Bardic Knowledge would only apply to Local and Nobility, but instead the bonuses given by the base class to other Knowledge skills would be moved to add to Diplomacy, Bluff, and Disguise.

Bards are the best made, as a base class, for such an archetype; but they don't have one. I have run across at one time or another a couple of Homebrew ones along these lines, though.

Sovereign Court

I think the current "face" classes are already good enough at it, that making a dedicated Face class would just be overkill. The DCs are already not that high.


I'd love to see something based on altering self, illusions, and all sorts of tricks while maintaining full BAB... think Oingo.


Perhaps its not the perfect "Face" class, but when I was developing content for the Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG), I knew that some followers of the setting came from L5R for inspiration. The courtier class in L5R was very much a "face" class for that game. Because of the existence of PF bard, I didn't want to create a defined "courtier" class. The samurai class fits most of the roles of direct service to the noble caste, so the courtier, if any, needed to fit there. So we developed the kuge (samurai archetype) to be a samurai version of a courtier, which gains a slower progression of feat acquisition and resolve, in exchange for more skill points per level and more "face" class features.

Grand Lodge

I was going to use the L5R D20 Courtier class for this. I thought about making it a variant Bard or a Bard archetype but I wasn't sure if giving up spellcasting for the courtier's "tricks" would be fair. I may have to dust off those notes and finish that thought.

SM


You could do a Face class themed after the Bene Gesserit. Had a friend actually DO that, come to think of it.

Mind you, you can reflavor Bard to do most of that anyway, they just have to play a flute instead of use weird voice harmonics.

The one thing that comes to mind as important to Face is language. I don't recall there being a Polyglot feat or Truespeech option available to regular PCs. Tongues is a third level spell and still doesn't apply to writing, or the ephemeral language of Flail Snail.


Do people really feel that bards need more social archetypes? Looking at Archives of Nethys I see at a minimum the Celebrity, Court Bard, Demagogue, Negotiator, Sandman and Street Performer archetypes that give various social bonuses.

I also suppose inquisitors can also make an interesting party face, particularly with the Heretic and Infiltrator archetypes that allow for two stats to be assigned for social skills.

Really, the way Pathfinder works you can get just about any class to fill most roles, it's just a little more awkward for some classes with some roles. That said, having some options for extra specialization is always nice, it's just that I don't really see a gap that needs to be filled in terms of social roles in Pathfinder.


p-sto wrote:

Do people really feel that bards need more social archetypes? Looking at Archives of Nethys I see at a minimum the Celebrity, Court Bard, Demagogue, Negotiator, Sandman and Street Performer archetypes that give various social bonuses.

None of them really emphasize social trickery the way my idea does, or what the OP was looking for. I remember looking over the Sandman, which is supposed to be a very tricky Bard, but it gives Stealspell and Sneak Attacks, and obviously if it gives those it can't give other, more social abilities.

Celebrity is horribly weak. Demagogue is specialized to one sort of social manipulation, etc..

What is needed is a Bard archetype with social Investigator and Rogue talents, plus Master Spy features gained as talents, as its main added feature, and then redirect some Bardic Knowledge bonuses to social and deceptive skill checks, even those where Versatile Performance allows the Perform skills to be used for those checks instead.


boring7 wrote:
Mind you, you can reflavor Bard to do most of that anyway, they just have to play a flute instead of use weird voice harmonics.

Perform (Oratory)

Bards only play instruments if you want them to. People always say stuff like this.


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DominusMegadeus wrote:
boring7 wrote:
Mind you, you can reflavor Bard to do most of that anyway, they just have to play a flute instead of use weird voice harmonics.

Perform (Oratory)

Bards only play instruments if you want them to. People always say stuff like this.

Indeed, bards can just be singers, or even only orators without instruments or music for that matter, and still use all their class features - there is no requirement of "must use a musical instrument to be a bard."

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