Homebrew classes and class options

[ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester]

Having never played a pathfinder game and maybe getting to try one at Armageddon in Hamilton this year(missed the chance last year), I was thinking about Homebrew options for existing pathfinder classes, and ideas for Homebrew classes of my own. Given my experience as far as games and mechanics(none), my main element is in concepts, with a few interesting ideas turning into really flavourful personalities and abilities.

Some of my previous ideas included the Murumasa sword smith(a samurai archetype that made and used cursed swords), and from there the order of folded steel(a cavalier order that treated the sword as an extension of the self, and so forged and tempered their own weapons against others).

Yet I need to learn how to make classes and races without relying as heavily on the help of others(though I am thankful for any assistance given in the past and in the future to help work the concept with the mechanics since I know how bad I am with this).

So this is me putting some ideas out for abilities and classes and also asking for advice on making the classes work while remaining balanced and not retreading ground already covered. I did that before and ultimately felt very foolish in comparison to everyone else.

[Aralicia]

(Note : In this post, I will use the term option in place of classes, race, archetype, or any other important choices at creation)

Creating something from scratch is doable, but may be hard to balance; the ability to do that requires instinct and an experience obtained by playing for quite some time with the rules.

In my opinion, one of the easiest way to make balanced options is the use of substitution and transference on an existing option (as well as a shitload of common sense, and knowledge of the system).

The basics of it is to use an existing option that approach your concept (for example, we'll use the Order of the Seal as a base to create the Order of folded steel).

After that we can use two basic techniques to adapt the option :

Substitution works by replacing one mechanic of the option at a time, with another of approximately the same power. The goal is not to balance every mechanics of an option at once, but to balance each mechanic separately, which should ensure a overall balance.

Transference works by removing power from a mechanic to enhance another within the same option. It is usually used when we want to include a powerful mechanic, that is more powerful than its counterpart. In this case, when reduce the power of another mechanic by approximately the same amount of added power to the powerful mechanic.

Now, let's try to make the Order of Folded Steel. As I said, I'll use the Order of the seal as a base.
Lets first thinks a bit about what this concept means in terms of the game. The basis of the concept is that the character will only use weapon he crafted himself. That means that he should never use (and would not gain the benefit) of looted or bought weapons, including magical weapons. That means that he'll have to have another way to access to weapon enchants, or equivalent advantages. We could have something like the old 3.5 Kensai, but its a bit complicated, and since the character is already a weapon crafter, we'll go the Master Craftsman way instead.

Lets take the mechanics one after the other.

Edict. Okay, since we want the character to only use a weapon he created himself, it is logical to have the edict based on that. Since it means that any improvised weapon, or any weapon taken from a treasure, and ally or an enemy will violate the edict, it wouldn't be too loose.
The cavalier must always use a weapon he has himself created. If he attack with any weapon that he did not manufacture, He violates the sermons he made when he entered the Order of the Folded Steel.

Challenge. Hmm, the order of the seal gives a free maneuver when the character make a full attack. Nice, but it doesn't really correspond with what we want to go with our homebrew. We could give a offensive bonus when the cavalier use challenge with a weapon he made, but since he cannot use challenge if he use another weapon, it would only be a flat bonus to attack or damage. Not really flavorful, and may unbalance things. Instead, We'll take a page from the penitent order, and make it harder to disarm or sunder the character. After all, his weapon must surely be really important to him.
Whenever an order of the folded steel cavalier issues a challenge, he receives a +1 morale bonus to his CMD against Disarm and Sunder combat maneuvers made by any target he is threatening. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the cavalier possesses.

Skills. All orders gain 2 class skills, and competence bonus to one skill. Obviously the cavalier already as Craft as a class skill, so we'll give him Appraise and... lets say Knowledge(Nobility). Of course, the competence bonus will be to Craft checks.
An order of the folded steel cavalier adds Appraise (Int) and Knowledge(Nobility) (Int) to his list of class skills. Whenever the cavalier uses Craft to create a weapon, he receives a competence bonus equal to 1/2 his cavalier level (minimum +1).

Order Abilities. The cavalier has 3 order abilities; at 2nd, 8th, and 15th level. Lets take them one by one.

2nd Level. Ho, Keeper could be easily adapted to work with a weapon. It may be a bit more powerfull however. And having the cavalier know how to use any weapon he made. Hmmm, Let's make it a bit better that the original, and have the one of the next abilities be a bit less powerful.
One with the Sword At 2nd level, once per day the cavalier must select a weapon he created himself. He is considered as proficient with it. If he is already proficient with it, he gains a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls whenever he attacks with it. He gains these bonuses until he select a new weapon.

8th Level. Ok, Right now, the character will probably be a bit behind in terms of magical weaponry; lets correct that by letting him enchant his weapons by himself. Since many 8th level Order abilities gift a feat, and add another bonus, we can give 2 crafting feats. It'll fill the main issue of the concept, and as it will be less powerful than the usual 8th level abilities, it'll absorb take the hit for the more powerful 2nd level ability.
Mystic Forging At 8th level, the cavalier gains Master Craftsman and Craft Magic Arms and Armor as bonus feats.

15th level. Last Ability. Hmmm. The Staggering Assault gives a one-hit vibe that could kinda fits the feeling of the order of folded steel. Let's have it Disarm rather than bull-rush to have more of a "true weapon master" style.
Disarming Strike At 15th level, the cavalier can disarm and wound is opponents with a single strike. As a full-round action, the cavalier can make a single attack at his highest attack bonus. If the attack hits, the attack does damage as normal, and the cavalier may attempt a disarm against the target. The cavalier gains a bonus on the disarm combat maneuver check equal to half the amount of damage dealt on the initial attack.

[Cyrad]

Designing classes is hard. It's difficult and takes a lot of time to make a fully fleshed out class. This is why archetypes exist, but even those can be difficult. Especially for someone who never played Pathfinder. Peer review is also very important.

[Avianfoo]

Cyrad wrote:

Designing classes is hard.

I'll second this one.

The first full class I created is 3/4 BA, 6 lvl arcane spell casting class. Not the easiest class to start with.

[Cyrad]

Another thing making classes difficult is that they need wet playtesting (actually building and playing the class). With archetypes or other options, you can get away with dry playtesting (playing with your mind's eye and maybe a few notes).

@ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester
Why exactly do you want to create classes and archetypes? For fun? For a campaign? For your players? To publish material? Understanding your motivation can help me figure out to what extent of giving advice for. I wouldn't give the same advice to someone interested in a game design career as I would to someone who just wants to make a few homebrew things for his home game.

Avianfoo wrote:

Cyrad wrote:

Designing classes is hard.

I'll second this one.

The first full class I created is 3/4 BA, 6 lvl arcane spell casting class. Not the easiest class to start with.

Ouch! Those kinds of classes are difficult because they need many strong class features to make up for their weaker late-game. But overdoing it can easily give them too much of everything.

[Avianfoo]

Cyrad wrote:

Avianfoo wrote:

Cyrad wrote:

Designing classes is hard.

I'll second this one.

The first full class I created is 3/4 BA, 6 lvl arcane spell casting class. Not the easiest class to start with.

Ouch! Those kinds of classes are difficult because they need many strong class features to make up for their weaker late-game. But overdoing it can easily give them too much of everything.

Ouch indeed. You can judge for yourself how well I accomplished the balance aspect.

I started with a really stong concept and a good idea of which direction I wanted to take the class. Having a good idea of what the class is all about makes decision making easy. Ask youself yes/no questions: Such as does skill X fit this class. If its a "maybe", consider it a "no" and move on.

[ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester]

Cyrad wrote:

Another thing making classes difficult is that they need wet playtesting (actually building and playing the class). With archetypes or other options, you can get away with dry playtesting (playing with your mind's eye and maybe a few notes).

@ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester
Why exactly do you want to create classes and archetypes? For fun? For a campaign? For your players? To publish material? Understanding your motivation can help me figure out to what extent of giving advice for. I wouldn't give the same advice to someone interested in a game design career as I would to someone who just wants to make a few homebrew things for his home game.

To answer your question on why I am wanting to create classes and archetypes? It's a mixture of wanting to do it because it's fun, doing it for homebrew campaigns, and getting experience so i can get a better sense on what the world of game design might entail. I have a passion for the field and would like to get involved, but here in New Zealand, I have not much understanding on the nature of the industry, or how it functions within my area of residence(Hamilton,NZ).

It's more a hobby right now but I would like to make it a career if I end up being good at it.

[Cyrad]

ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester wrote:

It's more a hobby right now but I would like to make it a career if I end up being good at it.

For serious learning in game design, I always recommend Art of Game Design: Book of Lenses by Jesse Schell and Fundamentals of Game Design and Advanced Game Mechanics by Ernest Adams. Jesse Schell's a Disney Imagineer and lead designer of Toontown. Ernest Adams is a professor that teaches game design, which is why his books are much more technical and expensive. Game design is kind of like writing narratives. It seems fairly simple at a glance, but it's a subject that requires an ample amount of creative and technical skill.

For writing content for Pathfinder, I recommend just writing new archetypes. Get a feel for what has been done before and find a niche to itch. Like any skill, you get better at it the more you do it.

[Ciaran Barnes]

Cyrad wrote:

For writing content for Pathfinder, I recommend just writing new archetypes. Get a feel for what has been done before and find a niche to itch. Like any skill, you get better at it the more you do it.

This would be a great way to start. Its less ambitious than a full-on class, but it will be easier to write something that is actually good if you can focus on a few class features rather than 20 levels of them.

And as everyone is saying, it is hard. I've designed classes, magic items, playable races, monsters, and feats, plus I've written adventures. Its taken me over a decade to develop whatever amount I skill I might have. And while *I* really like what I create, all evidence from my peers indicates that I have a great deal more learning to do.

[ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester]

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

Cyrad wrote:

For writing content for Pathfinder, I recommend just writing new archetypes. Get a feel for what has been done before and find a niche to itch. Like any skill, you get better at it the more you do it.

This would be a great way to start. Its less ambitious than a full-on class, but it will be easier to write something that is actually good if you can focus on a few class features rather than 20 levels of them.

And as everyone is saying, it is hard. I've designed classes, magic items, playable races, monsters, and feats, plus I've written adventures. Its taken me over a decade to develop whatever amount I skill I might have. And while *I* really like what I create, all evidence from my peers indicates that I have a great deal more learning to do.

Thank you for the advise. I really appreciate it.

[ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester]

Cyrad wrote:

ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester wrote:

It's more a hobby right now but I would like to make it a career if I end up being good at it.

For serious learning in game design, I always recommend Art of Game Design: Book of Lenses by Jesse Schell and Fundamentals of Game Design and Advanced Game Mechanics by Ernest Adams. Jesse Schell's a Disney Imagineer and lead designer of Toontown. Ernest Adams is a professor that teaches game design, which is why his books are much more technical and expensive. Game design is kind of like writing narratives. It seems fairly simple at a glance, but it's a subject that requires an ample amount of creative and technical skill.

For writing content for Pathfinder, I recommend just writing new archetypes. Get a feel for what has been done before and find a niche to itch. Like any skill, you get better at it the more you do it.

Thank you for the advise. Appreciate it.

[ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester]

Okay... Since making full blown classes is really out of my league, I will try to focus on making archetypes, and minor mechanical pieces(like spells, orders, or a witches hexes). As I get better at it, maybe I will improve the quality of my material. So... Who wants to see a samurai/cavalier order/archetype for bandit style knights...

No name as of yet, aside from the one linked to the samurai side of things. It's name-the yakuza.

This is based of the origins of the yakuza within the Edo period. So a lord lays off some of his samurai, sending them from his service. This leaves those men with no jobs but a distinct set of skills. These samurai then become ronin, either working as mercenaries, or taking up the life of a bandit. Eventually, a group of these ronin start to band together, working together in guarding villages and towns from bandit attacks, wild animals, and raiding armies. This is a stable arrangement with the samurai receiving food and shelter-until some of these groups realise that they could just force the villages to pay them for defending their homes. And from there the yakuza gangs began to grow and gain influence over the underworld of japan.

Within pathfinder, a yakuza is more of a samurai rogue, caring little for Honor, and more for the gold and power he can claim by his actions. As such a yakuza would lose some of the samurai traits like honourable stand, resolve, and so-on, in favour of rogue like sneak attacks, dirty tricks, proficiency with crossbows, and instead of challenging people, intimidating them.

[Avianfoo]

ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester wrote:

Within pathfinder, a yakuza is more of a samurai rogue, caring little for Honor, and more for the gold and power he can claim by his actions. As such a yakuza would lose some of the samurai traits like honourable stand, resolve, and so-on, in favour of rogue like sneak attacks, dirty tricks, proficiency with crossbows, and instead of challenging people, intimidating them.

A good flavorful concept is a great place to start. A good archetype has something unique to it. Something that isn't just a copy of some other classes ability. (Take a look at other archetypes as examples).

Another thing to keep in mind on the more mechanical rules side is the idea of front-loading an archetype (and classes for that matter). This is effectively when the first 1 or 2 levels of the archetype give amazing bonuses/abilities at the cost to swapping out abilities normally gained later. If you only take the first 1 or 2 levels, the "cost" is never paid.

For an example of a badly front-loaded archetype see the Master of Many Styles monk archetype.

If you have any questions, just fire away. There are many on the boards that are willing to lead you astray... I mean help :)

[ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester]

Okay. So rogues get sneak attack and rogue talents, ninjas get ninja tricks instead of rogue talents, and samurai's unique quality is their resolve, and challenge related feats. The Yakuza therefore need something to fill in a area of their own. Perhaps if they had access to some of a rogues dirty tricks, the ability to quick throw knives for the purposes of debilitation as a swift reaction to a charge, something to catch the sentiment of a rogue while retaining a samurais sensibilities and proficiency in Armour and weapons. I need to think on this some more before i can make a proper listing of abilities.

Also, I might have some limits on the alignment, given they are less likely to be lawful, and more likely to be chaotic, though i imagine that there will be some lawful evil Yakuza crime-lords out there in Golorian, manipulating things behind the scenes while maintaining the appearance of a genuine, respectable individual. this is why i wondered as to if it should be an order or an Archetype of the samurai.

[ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester]

so what elements do you think the Yakuza should adopt from the rogue or ninja classes.