Here's Slashing Grace:
Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
Q: Why the hell doesn't it share the wording from Dervish Dance (you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls)?
Lots of people have said that the people from Paizo would have us believe that they didn't just make it a Swashbuckler class feature (which it might as well be) so that other classes can take this feat, although all it does is let you add your Dex to damage instead of your Str, but you still have to use your Str to hit (unless you're a Swashbuckler).
Slashing Grace still allows Dex-to-Damage for an awful lot of weapons, including ones for which this makes no sense, including ones that you can't get Dex-to-Hit with (hello Battleaxe, etc.). I would have preferred a Weapon Grace feat that depends upon Weapon Finesse, with a bit of adjustment(*) so that Tiny and smaller creatures can't get ridiculous damage with their natural attacks, and so that characters who dump Strength at best only get limited Dex-to-Damage. Would have also covered Rapiers without needing a separate Fencing Grace feat, and would make the Elven Curve Blade more useful.
(*)Not necessarily the Slashing Grace approach of excluding Light weapons, although a modified version of this restriction be suitable.
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I made a thread about this ages ago.
Despite the fact Paizo advertised the Swashbuckler could get easy Dexterity-to-damage in ACG, that feature was added to Slashing Grace as an after thought. They said they would remedy the situation, but all we got was Fencing Grace, which only works for rapiers. We still have the situation where a character can add their Dexterity to battleaxe damage, but not dagger damage.
I'm honestly not sure what the stance of the design team has about this. I thought they were adamant against Dex-to-damage, but then they make Slashing Grace and completely botch it up. Many have been begging them to errata the feat since the release of ACG.
Dreamscarred Press made a really well done version of the feat called Deadly Agility. A nice touch is that Dervish Dance still has a reason to exist.
Prerequisite(s): Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit(s): You may add your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier when wielding a light weapon or a weapon that gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat (such as the rapier) when determining additional damage inflicted upon a successful attack.
This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is not reduced for off-hand weapons.
Unlike Slashing Grace, it has less feat tax while still preventing gish classes (like kensai magi) from getting it right away. Dex-to-Damage greatly benefits gish classes because it allows them to offset their MAD limitations.
Well, what do you guys think of just house-ruling that Slashing Grace is available to all finesseable weapons (as well as one-handed slashers) and grants Dex to attack rolls? Is that fair(ish)?
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Way to much to have for one feat. Honestly a one level dip and then deadly agility gives you dex to damage for virtually any weapon if you pick up Weapon Versatility
Yes.
Way to much to have for one feat. Honestly a one level dip and then deadly agility gives you dex to damage for virtually any weapon if you pick up Weapon Versatility
Eventually it'll just be a million different feats to do the same godddamn thing. Also you have to be a human (or at least part of one) and a fighter (usually) to get Weapon Versatility. Besides, who uses two dozen different weapons?
Well, what do you guys think of just house-ruling that Slashing Grace is available to all finesseable weapons (as well as one-handed slashers) and grants Dex to attack rolls? Is that fair(ish)?
I recommend just allowing Dreamscarred Press's Deadly Agility instead of Slashing Grace and houseruling that swashbuckler class features work for slashing weapons, too. Scimitars and rapiers are still the best option for swashbucklers. Worst-case scenario, a swashbuckler picks up Exotic Weapon Proficiency and finesses bastard swords, which Slashing Grace lets you do anyway. And unlike Slashing Grace, only swashbucklers could finesse bastard swords. And if the game grants that ability, shouldn't it come from the class all about being a stylish badarse?
Well, what do you guys think of just house-ruling that Slashing Grace is available to all finesseable weapons (as well as one-handed slashers) and grants Dex to attack rolls? Is that fair(ish)?
I've opened slashing grace up to allow you to select a 'light or one-handed slashing weapon'. after reading this and thinking about it I am seriously considering opening up fencing grace to light and one handed piercing weapons.
That leads me onto whether I need a third feat for light and one handed bludgeoning weapons...hmmm! <thinking as I type is never sensible>
Well, what do you guys think of just house-ruling that Slashing Grace is available to all finesseable weapons (as well as one-handed slashers) and grants Dex to attack rolls? Is that fair(ish)?I've opened slashing grace up to allow you to select a 'light or one-handed slashing weapon'. after reading this and thinking about it I am seriously considering opening up fencing grace to light and one handed piercing weapons.
That leads me onto whether I need a third feat for light and one handed bludgeoning weapons...hmmm! <thinking as I type is never sensible>
That seems much more reasonable. I should do that.
Slashing Grace is designed for specifically 2 classes:
Swashbuckler and Daring Champion Cavalier.
Swashbuckler's Finesse from both of those classes acts as Weapon Finesse for fulfilling the requirements of this feat, and work in a reciprocal way to let you cause Dex to Attack and Damage with Slashing one-handed weapons, including the scimitar, dueling sword, sawtooth sabre, longsword, bastardsword, katana, rhoka, and falcata.
It's an odd feat, but one that works fine, honestly.
Also, you're forgetting that Dervish Dance isn't a PRD feat.
Paizo wanted a Dex-to-Damage feat in the PRD, so Slashing Grace was a way to make that happen, while still making Dex-to-Damage a relatively unique thing to Swashbucklers or related archetypes in the PRD.
Slashing Grace is designed for specifically 2 classes:
Swashbuckler and Daring Champion Cavalier.
Swashbuckler's Finesse from both of those classes acts as Weapon Finesse for fulfilling the requirements of this feat, and work in a reciprocal way to let you cause Dex to Attack and Damage with Slashing one-handed weapons, including the scimitar, dueling sword, sawtooth sabre, longsword, bastardsword, katana, rhoka, and falcata.
It's an odd feat, but one that works fine, honestly.
There are a lot of people who would disagree with you on that (including me).
The feat
A: has confusing wording (a bit)
and B: requires a feat that affects almost nothing that Slashing Grace affects itself.
It really should affect attack rolls as well as damage rolls. Plus that's how things generally go in PF: attack rolls, then damage rolls. ex. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.
Slashing Grace is designed for specifically 2 classes:
Swashbuckler and Daring Champion Cavalier.
Swashbuckler's Finesse from both of those classes acts as Weapon Finesse for fulfilling the requirements of this feat, and work in a reciprocal way to let you cause Dex to Attack and Damage with Slashing one-handed weapons, including the scimitar, dueling sword, sawtooth sabre, longsword, bastardsword, katana, rhoka, and falcata.
It's an odd feat, but one that works fine, honestly.
There are a lot of people who would disagree with you on that (including me).
The feat
A: has confusing wording (a bit)and B: requires a feat that affects almost nothing that Slashing Grace affects itself.
It really should affect attack rolls as well as damage rolls. Plus that's how things generally go in PF: attack rolls, then damage rolls. ex. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.
At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.
Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
Swashbuckler's Finesse counts as Weapon Finesse to take Slashing Grace.
Slashing Grace turns a slashing weapon into a Slashing AND piercing weapon.
Swashbuckler's Finesse gives Dex to Attack with Piercing weapons.
Slashing Grace gives Dex to Attack with Slashing Weapons.
Swashbuckler's Finesse + Slashing Grace = you chosen one-handed naturally-Slashing Weapon is Dex to Attack and Damage.
Swashbuckler's Finesse + Slashing Grace + Martial Versatility = Dex to Attack and Damage with all One-Handed Slashing weapons.
A Swashbuckler can take Martial Versatility as their 4th level Bonus Feat and turn any and all One-Handed Slashing Weapons they hold into dex-to-attack-and-damage weapons.
It was a peculiar oversight that this did end up meaning Swashbuckers were better off using battle-axes for a refined, dexterity-based fighting style than their iconic rapier until an obvious patch feat was introduced in Advanced Class Origins.Slashing Grace is designed for specifically 2 classes:
Swashbuckler and Daring Champion Cavalier.
Swashbuckler's Finesse from both of those classes acts as Weapon Finesse for fulfilling the requirements of this feat, and work in a reciprocal way to let you cause Dex to Attack and Damage with Slashing one-handed weapons, including the scimitar, dueling sword, sawtooth sabre, longsword, bastardsword, katana, rhoka, and falcata.
It's an odd feat, but one that works fine, honestly.
Also, you're forgetting that Dervish Dance isn't a PRD feat.
Paizo wanted a Dex-to-Damage feat in the PRD, so Slashing Grace was a way to make that happen, while still making Dex-to-Damage a relatively unique thing to Swashbucklers or related archetypes in the PRD.
You say "peculiar", I say "hilarious and AWESOME"
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A Swashbuckler can take Martial Versatility as their 4th level Bonus Feat and turn any and all One-Handed Slashing Weapons they hold into dex-to-attack-and-damage weapons.
I think you forgot the word Human in that sentence.
There are a lot of people who would disagree with you on that (including me).
The feat
A: has confusing wording (a bit)and B: requires a feat that affects almost nothing that Slashing Grace affects itself.
It really should affect attack rolls as well as damage rolls. Plus that's how things generally go in PF: attack rolls, then damage rolls. ex. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.
At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.
Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.Swashbuckler's Finesse counts as Weapon Finesse to take Slashing Grace.
Slashing Grace turns a slashing weapon into a Slashing AND piercing weapon.
Swashbuckler's Finesse gives Dex to Attack with...
I was talking about people who didn't want to be a swashbuckler or swashbuckling cavalier. So my previous points of A and B still stand. For not the aforementioned classes.
A Swashbuckler can take Martial Versatility as their 4th level Bonus Feat and turn any and all One-Handed Slashing Weapons they hold into dex-to-attack-and-damage weapons.Not quite. You have to follow the rules for Martial Versatility, which applies it to everything that shares a Fighter weapon group with the chosen weapon.
It will not grant it to every weapon that you could have chosen for it.
Also Martial Versatility does not require that the other weapons be selectable for the ordinal feat. So you can actually take Slashing Grace for a whip and use Martial Versatility to gain its benefits with a Flail.
That seems... a bit... out there. To say the least. I would say that the feat you chose with Martial Versatility would only apply to other weapons in the group IF they qualify for the feat in the first place. But it might go either way.
I was talking about people who didn't want to be a swashbuckler or swashbuckling cavalier. So my previous points of A and B still stand. For not the aforementioned classes.And the post you were responding to was about the feat being for Swashbucklers specifically.
Color me confused. Which of my posts are you talking about?
This one.Slashing Grace is designed for specifically 2 classes:
Swashbuckler and Daring Champion Cavalier.
Swashbuckler's Finesse from both of those classes acts as Weapon Finesse for fulfilling the requirements of this feat, and work in a reciprocal way to let you cause Dex to Attack and Damage with Slashing one-handed weapons, including the scimitar, dueling sword, sawtooth sabre, longsword, bastardsword, katana, rhoka, and falcata.
It's an odd feat, but one that works fine, honestly.
There are a lot of people who would disagree with you on that (including me).
The feat
A: has confusing wording (a bit)and B: requires a feat that affects almost nothing that Slashing Grace affects itself.
It really should affect attack rolls as well as damage rolls. Plus that's how things generally go in PF: attack rolls, then damage rolls. ex. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.
Then Paizo should've just given it to those classes instead of making it a controversial feat... Therefore those points do indeed still stand. Sometimes what Paizo does is really dumb. Am I the only one that thinks that?
Ummm ... am I the only one who noticed "Weapon Finesse" is a requirement for "Slashing Grace," meaning that it's already preferential to add Dex to the attack over Str?
Ummm ... am I the only one who noticed "Weapon Finesse" is a requirement for "Slashing Grace," meaning that it's already preferential to add Dex to the attack over Str?
You are not the only one who noticed that. BUUUUUT almost every weapon that Slashing Grace affects CANNOT BE FINESSED. Which means most weapons would get Str on attack rolls and Dex on damage rolls.
Then Paizo should've just given it to those classes instead of making it a controversial feat... Therefore those points do indeed still stand. Sometimes what Paizo does is really dumb. Am I the only one that thinks that?
Everyone has opinions. Some people are butthurt about it, others take it as not that big a deal to dip into Swashbuckler to get it (which you'd have to do anyway).
Still others are fine with just applying Agile on a naturally Finesse-able weapon and not be concerned with getting Dex to Atk and Damage with their longsword or Katana.
I mean, it takes TWO feats to get Wis to Attack alone (Guided Hand) along with being in a class than can Channel, and there isn't even a natural way to get Wis to Damage (there IS a weapon enhancement from back in Pathfinder Chronicles during 3.5, but it wasn't brought up into Pathfinder itself).
I once heard that slashing grace was originally just to allow swashbucklers to wield a different type of weapon. But it was too weak so the dex to damage was added at the last minute. That's why it's so odd.
Basically everything in the ACG that wasn't open play tested has issues.
Ummm ... am I the only one who noticed "Weapon Finesse" is a requirement for "Slashing Grace," meaning that it's already preferential to add Dex to the attack over Str?You are not the only one who noticed that. BUUUUUT almost every weapon that Slashing Grace affects CANNOT BE FINESSED. Which means most weapons would get Str on attack rolls and Dex on damage rolls.
Naturally? No.
But if you have that ribbon everyone keeps talking about that you apply to a one-handed weapon, and thereafter treat it as a Light Weapon?
Oh, hey, look - you just got Weapon Finesse'd dual-wielding Katanas that also do Dex to Damage!
I mean, you can keep complaining about how it's only usable by people who dip a single level into Swashbuckler if you want.
Or you can just accept that it's basically a dead feat for everyone but a small number of Classes, the same way Channel Smite or any other Channel feats are basically useless for anyone who doesn't Channel.
Or how other feats aren't applicable for anyone except a choice few races, like the myriad Orc Rage feats.
Ummm ... am I the only one who noticed "Weapon Finesse" is a requirement for "Slashing Grace," meaning that it's already preferential to add Dex to the attack over Str?You are not the only one who noticed that. BUUUUUT almost every weapon that Slashing Grace affects CANNOT BE FINESSED. Which means most weapons would get Str on attack rolls and Dex on damage rolls.Naturally? No.
But if you have that ribbon everyone keeps talking about that you apply to a one-handed weapon, and thereafter treat it as a Light Weapon?
Oh, hey, look - you just got Weapon Finesse'd dual-wielding Katanas that also do Dex to Damage!
I mean, you can keep complaining about how it's only usable by people who dip a single level into Swashbuckler if you want.
Or you can just accept that it's basically a dead feat for everyone but a small number of Classes, the same way Channel Smite or any other Channel feats are basically useless for anyone who doesn't Channel.
Or how other feats aren't applicable for anyone except a choice few races, like the myriad Orc Rage feats.
The difference between channel feats and Slashing Grace is that people without Channel CANNOT take channel feats. On the other hand, Slashing grace can be taken by ANYONE. But it's useless. Also multiclassing in PF is an inferior option a lot of the time.
What is this ribbon you speak of? I really want to know about it.
@NikolaiJuno Thank you.
@chbgraphicarts I don't get why they ruled that it isn't but I guess I'll have to make an exception for making 100% PFS legal characters (oh no the butthurt is real)
Swashbuckler's Finesse + Slashing Grace + Martial Versatility = Dex to Attack and Damage with all One-Handed Slashing weapons.So?
That confused me too. How's getting multiple weapons overly useful? How many do you plan to attack with in a round?
That confused me too. How's getting multiple weapons overly useful? How many do you plan to attack with in a round?Swashbuckler's Finesse + Slashing Grace + Martial Versatility = Dex to Attack and Damage with all One-Handed Slashing weapons.So?
Indeed. Everything about how items works in Pathfinder is going to push characters to heavily invest in a single weapon anyway. Feats that only work for a specific weapon like the Focus/Specialization line and Improved Critical, the fact you're going to need a good magic weapon that costs a substantial portion of your WBL, etc.
I just don't see why it would be the end of the world if a character had the option of putting away his +2 Scimitar and drawing an unenchanted longsword instead.
That confused me too. How's getting multiple weapons overly useful? How many do you plan to attack with in a round?Swashbuckler's Finesse + Slashing Grace + Martial Versatility = Dex to Attack and Damage with all One-Handed Slashing weapons.So?Indeed. Everything about how items works in Pathfinder is going to push characters to heavily invest in a single weapon anyway. Feats that only work for a specific weapon like the Focus/Specialization line and Improved Critical, the fact you're going to need a good magic weapon that costs a substantial portion of your WBL, etc.
I just don't see why it would be the end of the world if a character had the option of putting away his +2 Scimitar and drawing an unenchanted longsword instead.
Mostly character fluff.
Your character may have a habit of not investing in a specific weapon, and instead just grabs whatever weapon is around him.
It's not optimal, but fluff is rarely "optimal"
That confused me too. How's getting multiple weapons overly useful? How many do you plan to attack with in a round?Swashbuckler's Finesse + Slashing Grace + Martial Versatility = Dex to Attack and Damage with all One-Handed Slashing weapons.So?Indeed. Everything about how items works in Pathfinder is going to push characters to heavily invest in a single weapon anyway. Feats that only work for a specific weapon like the Focus/Specialization line and Improved Critical, the fact you're going to need a good magic weapon that costs a substantial portion of your WBL, etc.
I just don't see why it would be the end of the world if a character had the option of putting away his +2 Scimitar and drawing an unenchanted longsword instead.
Mostly character fluff.
Your character may have a habit of not investing in a specific weapon, and instead just grabs whatever weapon is around him.
It's not optimal, but fluff is rarely "optimal"
So it might be a powerful option for a sub-optimal build? Still not seeing that as an issue.
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Slashing Grace is what happens when a design team that really really really didn't want to create a viable dexterity-to-damage alternative, are rushed when making a dexterity-to-damage alternative in order to make the swashbuckler benefit less from strength. The design team have previously stated that they thought dex-to-damage was too powerful for the Mythic rules, the same rules system that makes pre-nerf Paragon Surge a first tier ability. Clearly any kind of non-mythic dex-based option had to be riddled with requirements and limitations.
The feat as written enforces a hidden additional tax on top of the two feats it already requires, and heavily penalizes dexterity-based TWF. In order to make dexterity to hit and damage work with a single weapon you need either three feats for Weapon Finesse/Weapon Focus/Slashing Grace and one or more additional feats to gain proficiency with a one-handed weapon that you can use with weapon finesse (EWP: Aldori Dueling Sword, EWP: Whip&Whip Mastery etc), or three feats and a level of swashbuckler. If you want to make dex-based TWF work without the -4 penalty for two one-handed weapons you need to both spend four feats on slashing grace and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Sawtooth Saber) AND take a level of swashbuckler.Effortless Lace sidesteps the mess by letting you treat a 1-handed weapon as light for weapon finesse, and was banned from PFS before the book was even released.
If you want to make dex-based combat more viable the best solution is one I normally don't give as advice in Pathfinder - look to houserules or 3rd party material. Dreamscarred Press released Deadly Agility, which is on the liberal side but solves the problem rather neatly. A houserule that's fairly popular is "Improved Weapon Finesse", which gives dex-to-damage either with a single weapon or with the weapons already covered by Weapon Finesse. Phrasing similar to Dervish Dance is optional, but welcome if you're worried about dexterity dominating TWFing.
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I like how dex to damage is extremely awkwardly worded, for basically no reason, but one of the defining paladin features, Cha to Saves, is now a feat anyone can take with a dip lol
But it's for casters so that's ok... :(
Slashing Grace is what happens when a design team that really really really didn't want to create a viable dexterity-to-damage alternative, are rushed when making a dexterity-to-damage alternative in order to make the swashbuckler benefit less from strength. The design team have previously stated that they thought dex-to-damage was too powerful for the Mythic rules, the same rules system that makes pre-nerf Paragon Surge a first tier ability. Clearly any kind of non-mythic dex-based option had to be riddled with requirements and limitations.
The feat as written enforces a hidden additional tax on top of the two feats it already requires, and heavily penalizes dexterity-based TWF. In order to make dexterity to hit and damage work with a single weapon you need either three feats for Weapon Finesse/Weapon Focus/Slashing Grace and one or more additional feats to gain proficiency with a one-handed weapon that you can use with weapon finesse (EWP: Aldori Dueling Sword, EWP: Whip&Whip Mastery etc), or three feats and a level of swashbuckler. If you want to make dex-based TWF work without the -4 penalty for two one-handed weapons you need to both spend four feats on slashing grace and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Sawtooth Saber) AND take a level of swashbuckler.Effortless Lace sidesteps the mess by letting you treat a 1-handed weapon as light for weapon finesse, and was banned from PFS before the book was even released.
If you want to make dex-based combat more viable the best solution is one I normally don't give as advice in Pathfinder - look to houserules or 3rd party material. Dreamscarred Press released Deadly Agility, which is on the liberal side but solves the problem rather neatly. A houserule that's fairly popular is "Improved Weapon Finesse", which gives dex-to-damage either with a single weapon or with the weapons already covered by Weapon Finesse. Phrasing similar to Dervish Dance is optional, but welcome if...
I'm sorry, but who uses the mythic rules? Not me (and neither does PFS, for that matter).
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I always appreciated the irony of how Divine Protection and Steadfast Personality were printed in the same chapter of the same book, and the only real difference between the two feats is that one requires you to be a 5th level spellcaster and one does not.
What's that? You're a Charisma-focused Oracle and you're worried about your saves? Enjoy a +8 bonus on all saves against everything, all the time.
What's that? You're a swashbuckler who has charisma as a secondary stat and is unlikely to ever go above 16? Here, enjoy your +3 on will saves as an insight bonus against some spells, if they're mind affecting. Maybe.