They may not have been worth it for your particular build - but you can hardly put not having the feats as a negative of the class in general.They don't get Weapon Training - but brawlers can take Greater Weapon Focus and the Weapon Spec Feats.Saves-wise they are comparable (slightly better Reflex), AC is slightly higher (Brawler AC bonus), but hit/damage is something like 4/5 lower per hit without the Gloves of Dueling and Weapon Focus/Spec.
I'm aware, but the Brawler has fewer Feats and I needed to cram Pummeling Charge in there.
But I can snag them with Martial Flexibility though.
I didn't. I put them as a comparison of why my build has less damage per hit in comparison to one of my other builds.
I am kinda regretting not going Mutagenic Mauler, though. Martial Flexibility is nice, but Mutagen is nicer.
I'll trade the ability to snag Combat Feats on the fly for +2 hit, +5 damage, and +2 AC, Low-Light Vision, +10 speed, Darkvision, Scent, and Fast Healing.
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He isn't the best because he has the highest numbers, he is the best because he is able to target the opponents biggest weakness.
This.
Though with Manuver Training they'll have at least a bit of a focus. I think of it as having a preferred manuver, and then being able to switch to their secondary ones on the fly when needed. (If primarily tripping and up against flyers or giant things. Etc.)
Why? The brawler's AOOs are better since the monk's are made at his mid BAB. The monk can't get Greater Trip without an Int of 13 which few monk builds have the points for (exception of manuver master - but it has its own issues). The brawler can also hold a longspear to give him tripping AOOs as foes come at him since he's proficient. I don't see how this build could possibly be better on the monk.
Note: I'm not saying that the monk isn't probably more powerful overall with Quiggong. Just that this combo is better with the brawler.
I hadn't considered the possibility of using a reach weapon you weren't otherwise proficient in.
Now that you mention it, I recall that when my friend attempted the conversion, he flatly refused my advice to lower his Intelligence score when he no longer needed it. He just doesn't play dumb characters, ever, and he was unwilling to give up the skill ranks. I'm sure that hurt his final build--and our perceptions of the class.
He also didn't want to give up his crane wing/trip-monster-build feats he had worked so hard to get for over 10 levels. That hurt him even more, as the feats he could gain through his class abilities were quite limited.
I don't have the brawler variant, but here's a link to his original monk build, which totally dominated most of our Skull and Shackles campaign* for the longest time. Maybe it will serve as a basis for our discussion? If you can turn it into a a brawler of equal or greater power without deviating from the "trip monster" concept too much, then maybe you can change my mind about the class.
* Note that most of Skull and Shackles takes place against humanoids rather than big monsters, so he may have shined where he wouldn't have otherwise.
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I hadn't considered the possibility of using a reach weapon you weren't otherwise proficient in.
That's the thing - unlike monks - brawlers are proficient with all simple weapons, and therefore long-spears. (they can't flurry with it - but it's just for AOOs anyway)
Anyway *cracks knuckles* - how about this?
Human Brawler 10
(I'm assuming 20pt buy)
Str:22
Dex:16
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:12
Cha:8
Gear: Belt Str/Dex +2 / AoMF +2 & amulet of nat armor +2 (obviously houseruled - but used for comparison)/ Mithril Breastplate +2 of Brawling / materwork longspear / cloak resis +2 / ring protection +2 / +1 adaptive longbow
HP:116 (since the build had 4 shy of max hp)
AC:27 (+8 armor/+3 dex/+2 dodge/+2 deflection/+2 nat armor)
Fort:+11 Ref:+12 Will:+6
Melee:+22 d10+12 damage or +20/+20/+15/+15 or +17 1d6+9 with spear
Ranged: +14/+9 for 1d8+7 damage
CMB:+22 unarmed / +17 with spear (extra +4 for tripping and +1 for disarm)
CMD:29 (+4 vs tripping & +1 disarm & +2 vs grapple)
Feats:Combat Expertise/Improved Trip/Weapon Focus/Weapon Spec/Greater Weapon Focus/Combat Reflexes/Pummeling Style/Pummeling Bully (combos great with tripping)/Pummeling Charge
Against humanoids he would usually use Martial Flexibility to gain Greater Trip & Vicious Stomp as a swift action (adds an extra +2 on his trip CMB to bring it up to +28 unarmed and +23 AOOs with the spear), but he'd take other feats when they're not useful. Also - he should be enlarged when possible to boost his strength, CMB, and reach.
As you can see - it's offense is much higher - but it's down on defense and special abilities. (But by level 8-10 monks start having unusually good defenses - generally matched only by wild-shaped druids - and druids have a bad reflex save.) And frankly - part of the effectiveness of the linked build is some obvious houserules with using guided etc. (I'm at a loss why he got his strength that high with a guided weapon(OP). He could have dumped it. I actually always do with monks and get an agile amulet ASAP) This build could be made more defensive by dumping strength in favor of dex, getting an agile AoMF, and dropping the spear in favor of a +2 darkwood heavy shield (put AC up at 31) - but I kinda like the long-spear AOOs. *shrug*
Also - the build could probably be tweaked further to be a bit better. But - I'm done.
Actually, I believe it was 25-point buy, and he rolled terrible for his first several levels worth of hit points and so retrained a lot to get them back (and then some).
Looks like a pretty solid build. If I shared with the player, I'd expect him to complain about the lack of skills and perhaps Crane Wing (though the errata killed the latter for him already).
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Looks like a pretty solid build. If I shared with the player, I'd expect him to complain about the lack of skills and perhaps Crane Wing (though the errata killed the latter for him already).
For skill points - I suppose I should have dropped the Cha to 7 to get the Int to 12.
Like the higher dex - crane wing doesn't work with the longspear combo. But if you dropped strength to 10, jacked the dex up to 24 and the int to 12, and just dropped the longspear AOOs - that might be more to his liking. Overall the unarmed attack would be the same (+1 agile amulet instead of a +2 with the attack stat higher to compensate), and the defenses would go up, especially with crane wing instead of pummeling style.
But - as you've said, crane wing has been nerfed, and frankly - pummeling style is grossly awesome. Especially with Pummeling Bully combo'd with Greater Trip/Vicious Stomp. (Pounce on the charge along with a free trip and two AOOs - plus a third when they stand up? Yes please!)
As a potential option - I know that many are building their brawlers with a two level dip in MoMS monk - it boosts saves, gives a ton of feats, and lets them use two styles at once while keeping unarmed damage maxxed out. It does lower BAB/CMB/CMD by a point though.
I can't compare the brawler to the monk classes, since I have never had any interest in playing a monk. I'm big on character concept and not that concerned about heavy optimization, so take the following on that basis.
I have been playing a brawler ever since the ACG came out, and generally enjoy it. The one problem I kept encountering, though, was the problem of feat taxes and feat trees. Flexible maneuvers is great, but when you can only take one at a time it makes it hard to use the more useful ones.
I eventually took a two-level dip into fighter just to pick up a couple of extra permanent feats so I would have access to the ones I really wanted to be able to use (via flexible maneuvers) in their respective trees.
I didn't really want to do that dip, because it didn't fit well with the character concept, but it has resulted in more enjoyable play.
I played a brutal pugilist/urban barbarian. He was a pretty good brawler.
Any of you guys have any advice for improving my brawler, Noka Muun?
I think it represents my "Kano from Mortal Kombat" concept rather brilliantly, but falls well short in terms of mechanical power.
I don't think the brawler is meant to "wow" you with power. It is meant to be able to change feats to solve problems. Some NPC guy trying to escape on foot. Well now you have the Run, and improved grapple feats.
The party needs someone to help with ranged combat. Now you have point blank shot and precise shot.
I have not played a brawler, but I would suggesting taking a feat such as combat expertise* that is a gateway feat to other better feats.
@RD: Why do you have quick bullrush and power attack? I don't see any weapons that are useable with power attack, and TWF'ing and power attacking do no combine well with most builds. I would pick up Iron will to help the will save, and I would try to increase intelligence to a 13 since the brawler basically gets combat expertise for free if it has an int of 13.
I fooled around with the build a little. Upgrage you weapons, and take feats such as weapon focus and weapon specialization. Improved critical does not hurt either, and neither does two weapon rend. Also focus on pushing your strength.
These might not mesh with your concept. You may even need to multiclass out of to get your DPR up.
What do you want to be able to do beside hit things hard and what has priority?
Brawler doesn't need Int 13 for Combat Expertise.
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It depends really...frankly Mutagenic Mauler is a fine archetype, if you just want to do damage without having to worry about martial flexibility.
Regular brawler frankly shines if you come prepared with a list of feats to use, mostly the situational ones, so you should normally never be at disadvantage in most combat, such getting the ability to catch an arrow , when someone shoot at you or even use martial flexibility to get feats like the ones where you break into a room and have everybody shaken.
Any of you guys have any advice for improving my brawler, Noka Muun?
I think it represents my "Kano from Mortal Kombat" concept rather brilliantly, but falls well short in terms of mechanical power.
I assume that this character is meant to be used in scenarios similar to Skulls & Shackles in which case chokehold seems a bit superfluous. Also, I've always considered the bull rush feats a bit circumstantial, which means that they're good candidates to pick up through martial versatility rather than level up. If you want to try to simulate Kano's heart ripping and still make a decent grappler, maybe consider Hamatulatsu Strike, Hamatula Strike and Hamatula Grasp, either as regular feats or through MV. As mentioned upthread, Combat Expertise never hurts for a few more option I guess.
More generally, brawler's can also benefit quite a bit from dipping. Master of Many Styles is always a good choice, as is Maneuver Master, and if you can pick up Stunning Fist or one of it's replacements through the monk dip, it should still stack for uses with your brawler level. Also, a level of fighter is a good way to pick up more bonus feat, especially if you can get your hands on a Manual of War
On the whole, I like the brawler quite a bit, though I wish that many of its class features belonged to the fighter instead (at brawler progression level). It does seem like a very boring NPC class however, especially in published adventures where the feat selection has to be more or less fixed to make life easy on the GM.
Brawler doesn't need Int 13 for Combat Expertise.
I misread it.
@ the other poster: ignore my comment about raising int to 13