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I was thinking back over the PFS scenarios I’ve played through as well as the ones I’ve GM’d.
I think I noticed something that is a bit different than what I’ve seen in home games. In home games some of the opponents are often extremely hard to kill. A build that maximizes DPR helps quite a bit in those fights.
But few of the combats (even with bosses) in PFS seem to be all that tough in a manner such that raw damage is the primary answer. Even with really high DPR, the bad guys usually still get off a spell or two.
Otherwise almost every single death and really tough fight has been a failed saving throw OR just plain unequipped/unprepared to deal with the foe or situation.
Examples:
Barbarian fails save vs. confusion then chops cleric in half.
Cavalier fails save vs dominate then lance charges oracle.
Fighter and samuri fail save vs icy prison then are trapped for most of the fight.
OR
No one has decent ranged combat option (including spells) or the ability to fly.
No one has a cold iron weapon or spell to do significant harm to the demon.
No one has skills, items, or spells to perform a stealth or social mission.
No one has the ability to deal with deeper darkness or swarms.
One time a fight was tough because everyone was having a hard time hitting high AC opponents. But it still wasn’t really a mondo damage issue because they were quick easy kills once we actually started hitting.
So I have seen virtually no situations where success or failure hinged on just a few more DPR. But most of the martial and blaster builds I see are going for absolute max DPR. Usually at the expense of things like skills, saving throws, and a variety of equipment.
Similar thing with the SoD casters. Ok the save DC is 317. The bad guy totals a 15 will save. He probably would have failed if you had just barely been able to cast it at minimum DC. I almost never see the bad guy fail the save by just the couple of points you got for the extreme optimization. The spell would have been just as successful if they had a moderate save DC and still has decent saves, skills, and equipment.
Yet they build for the absolute max save DC. Usually at the expense of skills, saving throws, and a variety of equipment.
Nearly every tough fight or difficult situation that I have so far encountered would have been much better served by being a more balanced character that has decent saving throws and the ability to deal with a variety of situations. I don’t see a lot of people building those.
I will admit I have not played or GM’d anywhere nearly as many scenarios as a lot of you. Maybe my observations have been skewed. Confirm or Deny - What has been your experience?
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My experience has been that you're basically right, but I tend to dump wisdom and have never bought a cloak of resistance.
My dead characters are due to:
- deeper darkness with a vengeance
- low AC
- my whole party getting feared except me AND my low AC (which I guess is the argument for having better saves?)
- low initiative (usually a result of unlucky dice rolls; reactionary would never have helped these encounters)
Honestly I think the problem is that most people's characters may seem "optimized" given that they just so happen to be in just the right predicament. But they lack versatility. I definitely see this, my characters are made to deal with both social situations, and have an answer to many types of encounters. Will someone out there be able to handle each one better? Maybe, but I can handle my own at most situations.
I grow tired of being teamed up with people who SHOULD be smart enough to build something other than straight up just being the guy who could go the whole session only having to say I swing my weapwn at that guy. Children I suppose are exempt from this but it can still get dicy due to their vulnerability to spells.
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It's like blowing all your military budget building an orbital laser and leaving nothing for firewalls and encryption, or even a bloody security guard at the gate. You're king of the world until a semi-competent hacker or nutjob with a pocket-knife hijacks your system.
Then it all goes to pot. XD
For me, as a general rule, from level 5 onwards, none of a character's saves should be below half his/her level. A good target will be to have them equivalent to character level or higher.
After recently encountering a very deadly swarm of tiny undead ravens (immune to weapon damage), my paladin-sorcerer learned burning hands as a known spell just so that he could burn swarms in the future.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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For me, as a general rule, from level 5 onwards, none of a character's saves should be below half his/her level. A good target will be to have them equivalent to character level or higher.
I'm trying to figure out how to do this with a character's poor saves.
At 10th level, for instance, you have a base poor save of +3. Add a +3 cloak and you're at +6. Add that one ioun stone that gives a +1 competence(?) bonus to saves and you've got +7. So to reach "bonus=level", you need to have at least a 16 in each ability score that's tied to a poor save. So your clerics and druids all have 16 DEX?
And then your post says "or higher".
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Well, like I said it's a good target. The rule I set for myself is not less than half, which as you showed can be achieved with only marginal investment. I usually allow reflex to go a little lower, though I also like to go for a +4 or +5 cloak by level 10. A cleric or druid would have a belt of +4 CON if possible, or at least +2. Heroism lasts a good while if you can get it, and there's an Ioun stone that grants a +1 competence bonus as well iirc.
Hypothetical druid's fort save:
Base +3
Resist +4
Con +2
You're already in the ballpark there. If you took fortune's favoured as a feat, a stone of good luck or a luckblade (0 wishes) is not a bad investment either (total of +2). Or you could get another +1 from one of your traits. And if you dumped wisdom then for the love of Torag and your party take iron will as a feat by level 9! If you dumped constitution...all hope for you is lost. XD
Sources in rough order of ease-of-access (will vary based on class/race combinations):
Base
Stat
Resistance
Trait
Luck
Racial?
Feat
Morale
Competence
Sacred?
For your class's good save, you can get your level or higher easily and should. If you're a paladin, YOUR LOWEST SAVE SHOULD BE AT LEAST +10 AT LEVEL 10!
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One time a fight was tough because everyone was having a hard time hitting high AC opponents.In this case, generally, if a foe has a high ac and looks like a dex build (monk, guy with rapier etc) then you'll find that their CMD is considerably lower to the point where tripping, disarming, dragging, repositioning & grapples are the way to take them out of a fight.
If they look like a big tough thing with lots of armour then you're not going to be so fortunate. ...
As I recall they were monks (or we thought they were). It was at low levels and our martial characters were worried about the AoO for trying the combat maneuvers without the feats.
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I think it is impractical and ineffective to design a character that will be maximally effective against every strategy. ...
That wasn't what I meant. If it came across that way, my bad.
I don't mean one should aim for every eventuality. But if you aim for only 1 eventuality to the exclusion of anything else you have excessive and unnecessary weaknesses.
Last week, our toughest fight was against the party melee martial. At level 10 he had a total of a +1 on will saves. His race gives him a +1. I wouldn't have thought that was even possible.
We expended considerable spells and abilities trying to get him un-dominated before he killed the rest of us. We managed to generate 2 additional saving throw attempts. He failed both of those also. The save DC was only 18 (or maybe 19). Eventually I had to blind him and another party member with a glitterdust because he already had 2 of them down to single digit hitpoints.
This player felt he was having trouble with his prior character. He was failing saving throws because the bad guy got off a spell before dying. So he made another character focusing even more on DPR with even worse bonus to saves, in order to kill everything before it had a chance to cast even a single spell.
But it doesn't work that way. His DPR on a full attack got slightly higher than his previous character. But it has nothing to allow him to instantly close for a full attack. Does not have anything to give him a really high initiative. So he is having even more problems.
His solution? He is saving to put frost property on his weapon for another d6 damage. Won't even consider a cloak of resistance (he has enough right now for a +3) since that doesn't increase his DPR.
I've been seeing more and more people whose characters have only a single role. "I am a 2 weapon fighter that slashes things to pieces with 2 kukris" or whatever. Every stat that doesn't directly contribute to that role is dumped. Every magic item that doesn't directly contribute to that role is not purchased.
I'm not saying everyone has to be a jack-of-all-trades. I know that doesn't usually work too well.
But I feel everyone should have a responsibility to ensure that their own character doesn't have such a low will save that he is more of a danger to his own party than the enemy. I think everyone can afford to have a ranged weapon, potion of fly, couple vials of alchemist fire, and heck maybe even an oil of daylight. I think nearly everyone can afford to put a few ranks into a knowledge skill, climb, swim, or linguistics.
A few weeks ago we had a barbarian that was very upset because by then end of the scenario there was nothing that he could hit with his big hammer (Library of the Lion). It was the only thing he was built for and it didn't come up once.
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For me, as a general rule, from level 5 onwards, none of a character's saves should be below half his/her level. A good target will be to have them equivalent to character level or higher. ...
I kinda like this. I think I will adopt it as my rule of thumb.
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It's like blowing all your military budget building an orbital laser and leaving nothing for firewalls and encryption, or even a bloody security guard at the gate. You're king of the world until a semi-competent hacker or nutjob with a pocket-knife hijacks your system.
Then it all goes to pot. XD
For me, as a general rule, from level 5 onwards, none of a character's saves should be below half his/her level. A good target will be to have them equivalent to character level or higher.
After recently encountering a very deadly swarm of tiny undead ravens (immune to weapon damage), my paladin-sorcerer learned burning hands as a known spell just so that he could burn swarms in the future.
Have fun with that dimunitive fiendish swarm....It's easy and cheap enough that all of my characters end up getting a couple of each splash weapon in cases of swarms and such. Or a swarmbane clasp, swarm dies to one arrow, critter kebab anyone?
On the note of saves, I took my +5 Will Save Fighter/Hunter hybrid to Hard Mode Waking Rune. I somehow made saves against
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For me, as a general rule, from level 5 onwards, none of a character's saves should be below half his/her level. A good target will be to have them equivalent to character level or higher.I'm trying to figure out how to do this with a character's poor saves.
At 10th level, for instance, you have a base poor save of +3. Add a +3 cloak and you're at +6. Add that one ioun stone that gives a +1 competence(?) bonus to saves and you've got +7. So to reach "bonus=level", you need to have at least a 16 in each ability score that's tied to a poor save. So your clerics and druids all have 16 DEX?
And then your post says "or higher".
Well look at the good save, It is at level or higher. So your poor save is above half your level, and your good save is higher than your level.
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I try to generally keep my saves equal to or a bit lower level, this tapers off after it becomes prohibitely expensive, so around when you get +3 cloaks and dragonbone divination sticks, but it's a good goal to keep in mind.
Will is vital for everyone, Fortitude is a must for frontliners at least, but neglecting Ref means skipping combats inside walls of thorn, being unable to contribute in a web, dropping down pits, etc. I have one character who tries to get by with just energy resistances, but it's been a pain.
