Free College in USA - Take 2


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Krensky wrote:
Quark Blast wrote:

Ooo! Ooo! My cynicism pans out again.

Couple more victories like this and I'll be fashionably cynical.

:D

You're not cynical. You're seventeen.

Not only do you not know what cynicism is, you also are completely ignorant about near infinite number of things you are ignorant of.

Go have a milkshake with your friends or something.

Could we leave off with the ad homs on this guy? If you're making bad arguments against his positions it looks like you can't make good arguments against his positions.

Is that a 3rd victory for my cynicism? I think it is.

:)


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Quark Blast wrote:
Coriat wrote:
Quark Blast wrote:
And watching you back-peddle from someone that's not BigDTBone is worth whatever lumps I have to take.
Back-pedaling is something that good faith discourse about subjects you aren't well educated in does require, from time to time.

Yeah, but even you gotta admit watching you eat crow is... priceless irony.

:)

Priceless. Heh. Funny thing about that word choice. It's only priceless for you. ;)

The price is putting some research into your arguments. Plenty of other people can afford that price. If Quest comes through with the accreditation stuff, it's not even the first time in this thread I will have been wrong about something.

If you start founding arguments in a minimum of research, maybe next time you can even do more than watch.


thejeff wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Coriat wrote:


When I went to a traditional high powered school, they let us take the tests and go off wherever to fill them in. Didn't have to take them in classroom. In the higher level classics courses which I remember better, about half the class would take it somewhere other than the classroom.

Maybe things have changed since my Rutgers days, but I'm pretty sure that even today you can't do that On The Banks.

I had a couple physics classes where we had take-home tests. Over the weekend even. I dreaded those.

15-20 hours working on a test.

Works well in classes where you actually have to know what you're doing, not just look up a few facts.

Open book tests in sciences were pretty formidable in their own right, yeah.

But what I had in mind were closed book tests where they let us wander off to wherever. Like, translating Virgil at a desk, forget that, I'm going someplace else.


Coriat wrote:
thejeff wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Coriat wrote:


When I went to a traditional high powered school, they let us take the tests and go off wherever to fill them in. Didn't have to take them in classroom. In the higher level classics courses which I remember better, about half the class would take it somewhere other than the classroom.

Maybe things have changed since my Rutgers days, but I'm pretty sure that even today you can't do that On The Banks.

I had a couple physics classes where we had take-home tests. Over the weekend even. I dreaded those.

15-20 hours working on a test.

Works well in classes where you actually have to know what you're doing, not just look up a few facts.

Open book tests in sciences were pretty formidable in their own right, yeah.

But what I had in mind were closed book tests where they let us wander off to wherever. Like, translating Virgil at a desk, forget that, I'm going someplace else.

Whateves...
The Aeneid, in its entirety wrote:
F@&~ the Greeks. Do outlandish stuff to get your way. Go to hell either way. Rome is the bomb. Theus Endiucus.


Boston: A Crucial Battle Against Racist Union-Busting
Drop the Charges Against Steve Kirschbaum, Reinstate Fired Boston School Bus Union Activists!

Vive le Galt!!!


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Krensky wrote:
Quark Blast wrote:

Ooo! Ooo! My cynicism pans out again.

Couple more victories like this and I'll be fashionably cynical.

:D

You're not cynical. You're seventeen.

Not only do you not know what cynicism is, you also are completely ignorant about near infinite number of things you are ignorant of.

Go have a milkshake with your friends or something.

Could we leave off with the ad homs on this guy? If you're making bad arguments against his positions it looks like you can't make good arguments against his positions.

That might apply were any of this actually ad hom. Quark himself has stated that he was seventeen, and demonstrated on a consistent basis to be completely ignorant of his ignorance. Not only that, but numerous 'good arguments' were made throughout this and the previous thread, which would have trashed Quark's position were it not based on the absolute rejection of any evidence and superposition of his own opinion. Numerous pieces of evidence have been gathered, to no effect due to his inability or unwillingness to participate in good faith discussion, and presented, undercutting every single case he's made. Not a single one of Quark's nonsensical positions has been addressed with "This is nonsense, you are seventeen". On the other hand, nearly every position of Quark's could be summed up with, "Here is some nonsense, I'm seventeen."

Case in point, Coriat is pursuing a line of questioning on a subject that he does not know much about. (Still has done infinitely more research on the topic than Quark bothers to) He mentions that should evidence (that has not yet been produced) come to light that suggests his position was wrong, he will admit that he was wrong on that point.

This is precisely the opposite of the "grace" Quark has managed to demonstrate in his time here. Not only that, but Quark has the audacity to jump in, before the evidence is even produced, and jeer about it, as though it were some sort of triumph of his own.

Whether Quark is immature because he's seventeen or immature for a seventeen year old isn't really the question at hand, however. It is whether or not it is futile to carry on a discussion with someone who refuses to invest even the slightest value in research and looking things up and making sure you aren't just spewing falsehood.


Personally, I think Quark is shaping up just fine to fit in with the rest of us OTD politroll blowhards.

And, oh yeah, school sucks!


BigDTBone wrote:
Whateves...
The Aeneid, in its entirety wrote:
F%@* the Greeks. Do outlandish stuff to get your way. Go to hell either way. Rome is the bomb. Theus Endiucus.

Now now, the Greeks were important. For example, if it weren't for Homer, Virgil wouldn't have had a Greek poet to be better than.

;)


Interestingly, me and La Principessa were commiserating over poor Dido the other night.

EDIT: Come to think of it, though, that was only after discussing poor Penelope.

Anyway, patricians suck and Virgil was a Caesarite hack!


Coriat wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Whateves...
The Aeneid, in its entirety wrote:
F%@* the Greeks. Do outlandish stuff to get your way. Go to hell either way. Rome is the bomb. Theus Endiucus.

Now now, the Greeks were important. For example, if it weren't for Homer, Virgil wouldn't have had a Greek poet to be better than.

;)

I'm just sayin, if you really want to give yourself a hard time (or torture your students) you'd translate Livy.


Pfft. My vote's for De rerum natura. Bohr-ing!


Kain Darkwind wrote:

That might apply were any of this actually ad hom.

Its the very definition of an ad hom. You're refuting what he's saying by pointing out his youth and inexperience, which you think has contributed to his erroneous conclusions rather than his completely unfounded conclusions. You could give the exact same argument if his position were reversed.

Quote:
Quark himself has stated that he was seventeen

Being true and being an ad hom are not mutually exclusive.

Quote:
and demonstrated on a consistent basis to be completely ignorant of his ignorance.

If age were a cure for that fox news would be out of business.

Quote:
On the other hand, nearly every position of Quark's could be summed up with, "Here is some nonsense, I'm seventeen."

Only the first part matters.


Terrible Musical Interlude


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:

That might apply were any of this actually ad hom.

Its the very definition of an ad hom. You're refuting what he's saying by pointing out his youth and inexperience, which you think has contributed to his erroneous conclusions rather than his completely unfounded conclusions. You could give the exact same argument if his position were reversed.

Quote:
Quark himself has stated that he was seventeen

Being true and being an ad hom are not mutually exclusive.

Quote:
and demonstrated on a consistent basis to be completely ignorant of his ignorance.

If age were a cure for that fox news would be out of business.

Quote:
On the other hand, nearly every position of Quark's could be summed up with, "Here is some nonsense, I'm seventeen."

Only the first part matters.

Three things. One, I find it hard to accept that stating someone's age is ad hominem. I certainly don't consider seventeen to be an excuse for Quark's poor behavior; I've taught fifth graders who demonstrated more poise and decorum. Seventeen was when I signed up for the Army. Seventeen was the age at which my neighbor's boyfriend drove drunk and killed two kids. Seventeen is the cusp of adulthood in this country; one can make life altering choices. I personally expect a seventeen year old to comport themselves with at least an awareness of, if not an active choice to meet their responsibility.

Two, *I* was not the one saying that he should go get a milkshake (or whatever the post said that you responded to.) I simply disagree that Quark is being unjustly subjected to an ad hom attack instead of having his arguments (I use the term loosely) dismantled through factual counterpoints.

Three, I notice that you didn't address his actions towards Coriat. Presumably because you agree with my take or don't have a counterpoint to it at this time.

Quark's arguments have been taken apart at nearly every turn. That he chooses to act in a manner less than befitting an adult or even simply a logical human being is a separate issue, and not really one specifically under discussion here, but one that will have a far longer reaching impact upon his life than his specific feelings toward education and its reform in this country ever will.


You're doing more than stating it, you're using it as the basis for why he's wrong. There's enough solid bedrock for that construction project, you don't need to build on the sand.

Whoops, sorry. Quote orama confusion. My bad. But i don't think its an instead of, its both.

Don't read into it. The birds more than adaquately armed in this battle of wits without my help, nothing more to it than that.


Coriat wrote:

Looking further into it:

Moar wiki wrote:
Regionally accredited higher education institutions are predominantly academically oriented, non-profit, or state-owned institutions.[11][12][13] Nationally accredited schools are predominantly for-profit and offer vocational, career or technical programs.
While I can see that national accreditation is kind of low horsepower, Orfamay, I don't see the fraudulent connotations you're implying - that would seem to lie in accreditations that are neither regional nor national.

You're assuming, incorrectly, that I can't create a national accreditation board. All "national" accreditation means is that I will accept checks from anywhere in the country.

A key point is that an A.S., esp. in business or computer science, is an "academic" degree, not a vocational or career program. WIthout a way to upgrade the A.S., it's a more-or-less useless credential. If you're thinking to use UofP as a path to an MBA and corporate executive-hood, you can't get there from here.

As far as I can tell, UofP doesn't mention this little drawback. They may genuinely not know this -- which would make them incompetent beyond imagining. Or they may be concealing material facts, which would make them literally fraudulent.

Liberty's Edge

Except that you wouldn't be recognized as an Accreditor by the DOE and the CHEA.

The credits from the UoPeople may not transfer well but they are not a diploma mill.

The DEAC is not a regional accreditor, but they are a recognized accreditor by both of those groups and their accreditation is respected in the field.


Coriat wrote:


If Quest comes through with the accreditation stuff, it's not even the first time in this thread I will have been wrong about something.

Here's an example of some of the problems of "national" accreditation.

Quote:


In 2001, a 23-year-old woman, Latesha Gonzalez, enrolled with Crown College in Tacoma, Wash. At the time, Crown College was accredited by the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges of Technology (ACCSCT).

Gonzalez was assured when she enrolled with Crown that a local, regionally accredited school, Gonzaga University, would accept Crown courses as the equivalent of its own.

But when Gonzalez later attempted to transfer her coursework from Crown to Gonzaga, she was told by Gonzaga that it would not recognize credits earned from ACCSCT-accredited colleges.

Gonzalez sued Crown in 2004, as did a number of other disgruntled students. She eventually won the suit.

Note: The ACCSCT changed its name to the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges (ACCSC) in October 2009.

I should point out that the ACCSC is in fact, "recognized" by the Department of Education and has been since 1967. That didn't stop it from being, in the judgment of a court of competent jurisdiction, fraudulent.

From UofP's own mission page, it pledges itself to "Providing educational and occupational information to guide students’ career and educational planning and to develop their understanding of the world of work"

Are they "providing" the important information for "educational planning" that this program is not regionally accredited and hence not likely to be accepted as a stepping-stone for further information? This seems to be a rather key aspect of their product, especially as they do not offer any vocational or technical programs.

And it's not like regional accreditation is a high hurdle to clear. I think there are three regionally accredited public community colleges in San Diego alone.


Krensky wrote:


The credits from the UoPeople may not transfer well but they are not a diploma mill.

That's like saying someone is a murderer, but not a felon. If you offer an academic associate's degree -- and all UofP offers are academic degrees; they have no vo-tech program -- that can't be upgraded at a regionally-accredited school, you are ipso facto a diploma mill.

Liberty's Edge

Transfer of credits from one regional accredited school to another regionally accredited school is not guaranteed. Even when it's the same regional accreditor.

You're obviously highly invested in your argument, but you need understand that you repeating the same false argument over and over does not make it true. I question the value of a BA or BS from them, but they are not a diploma mill and the DEAC is not a accreditation mill.


Krensky wrote:


You're obviously highly invested in your argument, but you need understand that you repeating the same false argument over and over does not make it true.

Physician, heal thyself.

I stand by my statement.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Krensky wrote:

Transfer of credits from one regional accredited school to another regionally accredited school is not guaranteed. Even when it's the same regional accreditor.

I've seen classes taught by the same professor at different colleges not transfer.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Coriat wrote:


If Quest comes through with the accreditation stuff, it's not even the first time in this thread I will have been wrong about something.

Here's an example of some of the problems of "national" accreditation.

Quote:


In 2001, a 23-year-old woman, Latesha Gonzalez, enrolled with Crown College in Tacoma, Wash. At the time, Crown College was accredited by the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges of Technology (ACCSCT).

Gonzalez was assured when she enrolled with Crown that a local, regionally accredited school, Gonzaga University, would accept Crown courses as the equivalent of its own.

But when Gonzalez later attempted to transfer her coursework from Crown to Gonzaga, she was told by Gonzaga that it would not recognize credits earned from ACCSCT-accredited colleges.

Gonzalez sued Crown in 2004, as did a number of other disgruntled students. She eventually won the suit.

Note: The ACCSCT changed its name to the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges (ACCSC) in October 2009.

I should point out that the ACCSC is in fact, "recognized" by the Department of Education and has been since 1967. That didn't stop it from being, in the judgment of a court of competent jurisdiction, fraudulent.

From UofP's own mission page, it pledges itself to "Providing educational and occupational information to guide students’ career and educational planning and to develop their understanding of the world of work"

Are they "providing" the important information for "educational planning" that this program is not regionally accredited and hence not likely to be accepted as a stepping-stone for further information? This seems to be a rather key aspect of their product, especially as they do not offer any vocational or technical programs.

And it's not like regional accreditation is a high hurdle to clear. I think there are...

Question:

Can a online university with no physical location get regional accreditation, and if so what region would it get?

Liberty's Edge

Orfamay, your statements boil down to: "I'm right because I say I'm right!"

You claimed they are a diploma mill but have not provided any credible evidence that they are one. Not being a regionally accredited institution does not make a school a diploma mill. Not being a regionally accredited institution does not prevent transfer of credits to one. Being a regionally accredited institution does not guarantee transfer of credits to another one.

Liberty's Edge

Caineach wrote:
Krensky wrote:

Transfer of credits from one regional accredited school to another regionally accredited school is not guaranteed. Even when it's the same regional accreditor.

I've seen classes taught by the same professor at different colleges not transfer.

Out of slightly morbid curiosity, do you mean different colleges within the same institution or two different institutions?


Caineach wrote:
Can a online university with no physical location get regional accreditation, and if so what region would it get?

Yes, and whichever region it likes, typically the one where its offices are located or where it is incorporated.

For example, Western Governor's University is a fully-online (as in, no physical campus at all) university accredited by NCCU, the same group that accredits Brigham Young University and the University of Oregon. I believe they are physically located in Salt Lake City, Utah (although I'd not be surprised to learn they were a Delaware corporation).


Krensky wrote:
Orfamay, your statements boil down to: "I'm right because I say I'm right!"

Except for the various sources I've cited describing the issues and specific problems associated with a school that offers academic programs without being appropriately accredited.

Quote:
Not being a regionally accredited institution does not make a school a diploma mill.

No, but "not being a regionally accredited institution while offering associates' degrees for which national accreditation is inappropriate" does.


Krensky wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Krensky wrote:

Transfer of credits from one regional accredited school to another regionally accredited school is not guaranteed. Even when it's the same regional accreditor.

I've seen classes taught by the same professor at different colleges not transfer.
Out of slightly morbid curiosity, do you mean different colleges within the same institution or two different institutions?

2 different institutions. An adjunct taught the same class at 2 different colleges and the credits did not transfer.


Caineach wrote:
Krensky wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Krensky wrote:

Transfer of credits from one regional accredited school to another regionally accredited school is not guaranteed. Even when it's the same regional accreditor.

I've seen classes taught by the same professor at different colleges not transfer.
Out of slightly morbid curiosity, do you mean different colleges within the same institution or two different institutions?
2 different institutions. An adjunct taught the same class at 2 different colleges and the credits did not transfer.

Meh, adjuncts.

Seriously, though,.... there are a lot of (legitimate) reasons this could happen, because the courses themselves may not be equivalent. Adjuncts are often not responsible for course content (they're handed syllabi and textbooks and told to learn their lines and hit their marks) and, depending upon the institution, two identically named classes could have radically different content.

There could even be issues with course scheduling, if University of Y has a quarter system and X College has a semester system.

Some other potential problems:
History classes that cover different periods (where does "western civ" start and stop)?
World lit classes with a different focus (what do you mean "world lit" is only European at that school?)
Calculus-based vs. non-calculus-based physics, or finance
Mandatory lab vs. non-mandatory lab.

et cetera, et cetera, world without end, selah.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Coriat wrote:


If Quest comes through with the accreditation stuff, it's not even the first time in this thread I will have been wrong about something.

Here's an example of some of the problems of "national" accreditation.

Quote:


In 2001, a 23-year-old woman, Latesha Gonzalez, enrolled with Crown College in Tacoma, Wash. At the time, Crown College was accredited by the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges of Technology (ACCSCT).

Gonzalez was assured when she enrolled with Crown that a local, regionally accredited school, Gonzaga University, would accept Crown courses as the equivalent of its own.

But when Gonzalez later attempted to transfer her coursework from Crown to Gonzaga, she was told by Gonzaga that it would not recognize credits earned from ACCSCT-accredited colleges.

Gonzalez sued Crown in 2004, as did a number of other disgruntled students. She eventually won the suit.

Note: The ACCSCT changed its name to the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges (ACCSC) in October 2009.

I should point out that the ACCSC is in fact, "recognized" by the Department of Education and has been since 1967. That didn't stop it from being, in the judgment of a court of competent jurisdiction, fraudulent.

Hum.

I can find that accrediting commission on the Department of Education's list, which was one of the two institutions Wiki mentioned, but the other, the CHEA, seems to have denied it recognition.

Does this make a difference, in your opinion, that the accreditor of LazarX's university is recognized by the accreditation council, and the accreditor you're citing here is not?

Liberty's Edge

Orfamay Quest wrote:
Krensky wrote:
Orfamay, your statements boil down to: "I'm right because I say I'm right!"

Except for the various sources I've cited describing the issues and specific problems associated with a school that offers academic programs without being appropriately accredited.

Quote:
Not being a regionally accredited institution does not make a school a diploma mill.

No, but "not being a regionally accredited institution while offering associates' degrees for which national accreditation is inappropriate" does.

So the US Army and Marine Corps schools that offer academic degrees and are accredited by the DEAC and not by a regional accreditor are diploma mills?

YOu realise that DeVry is regionally accredited and that their academic degrees are essentially worthless and non transferable, right?


Krensky wrote:


So the US Army and Marine Corps schools that offer academic degrees and are accredited by the DEAC and not by a regional accreditor are diploma mills?

Nope. Those are vocational schools (and the vocation happens to require traditional academic disciplines), so national accreditation is appropriate (if dispreferred). But anyone who goes to one of those schools hoping to build a career on the basis of that credential is at best misguided. Fortunately, that's not what the USMC is offering those students.

Quote:


YOu realise that DeVry is regionally accredited and that their academic degrees are essentially worthless and non transferable, right?

I do. That's why I know that schools that can't even meet DeVry's stringent quality standards are even more worthless.


Coriat wrote:


Does this make a difference, in your opinion, that the accreditor of LazarX's university is recognized by the accreditation council, and the accreditor you're citing here is not?

Not a substantial difference, no. "Recognition" is not an imprimatur of appropriate quality, as I've said more or less from the opening of this particular discussion.

Liberty's Edge

Orfamay Quest wrote:
Krensky wrote:


So the US Army and Marine Corps schools that offer academic degrees and are accredited by the DEAC and not by a regional accreditor are diploma mills?

Nope. Those are vocational schools (and the vocation happens to require traditional academic disciplines), so national accreditation is appropriate (if dispreferred). But anyone who goes to one of those schools hoping to build a career on the basis of that credential is at best misguided. Fortunately, that's not what the USMC is offering those students.

Quote:


YOu realise that DeVry is regionally accredited and that their academic degrees are essentially worthless and non transferable, right?

I do. That's why I know that schools that can't even meet DeVry's stringent quality standards are even more worthless.

And once again you're again you're back to "I'm right because I say I'm right."


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Coriat wrote:


If Quest comes through with the accreditation stuff, it's not even the first time in this thread I will have been wrong about something.

Here's an example of some of the problems of "national" accreditation.

Quote:


In 2001, a 23-year-old woman, Latesha Gonzalez, enrolled with Crown College in Tacoma, Wash. At the time, Crown College was accredited by the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges of Technology (ACCSCT).

Gonzalez was assured when she enrolled with Crown that a local, regionally accredited school, Gonzaga University, would accept Crown courses as the equivalent of its own.

But when Gonzalez later attempted to transfer her coursework from Crown to Gonzaga, she was told by Gonzaga that it would not recognize credits earned from ACCSCT-accredited colleges.

Gonzalez sued Crown in 2004, as did a number of other disgruntled students. She eventually won the suit.

Note: The ACCSCT changed its name to the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges (ACCSC) in October 2009.

I should point out that the ACCSC is in fact, "recognized" by the Department of Education and has been since 1967. That didn't stop it from being, in the judgment of a court of competent jurisdiction, fraudulent.

From UofP's own mission page, it pledges itself to "Providing educational and occupational information to guide students’ career and educational planning and to develop their understanding of the world of work"

Are they "providing" the important information for "educational planning" that this program is not regionally accredited and hence not likely to be accepted as a stepping-stone for further information?

It took one minute and fifteen seconds to answer this particular question, the answer is yes, they are.

Quote:

Notice Concerning Transferability of Credits and Credentials Earned at Our Institution

The transferability of credits you earn at University of the People is at the complete discretion of an institution to which you may seek to transfer. Acceptance of the degree you earn at University of the People is also at the complete discretion of the institution to which you may seek to transfer. If the credits or degree that you earn at this institution are not accepted at the institution to which you seek to transfer, you may be required to repeat some or all of your course work at that institution. For this reason you should make certain that your attendance at this institution will meet your educational goals. This may include contacting an institution to which you may seek to transfer after attending University of the People to determine if your courses and/or degree will transfer. Additionally at this time, the University has no articulation or transfer agreements with any other college or university and does not accept transfer credit from other colleges and universities. The University of the People also does not award credit for prior experiential learning, challenge examinations or achievement tests.

It's the very first thing they tell you under the "Applying to University of the People" section of their catalog.

So I'm a bit less convinced that the other case you are citing is a relevant comparison. The case document links on Wiki are all link rotted, but as far as I can tell that college lost the suit because it lied to its students and claimed its credits were transferable.

You keep throwing fraud around but I really haven't seen you prove it. Well, proof might be a high burden, but I actually haven't seen you provide a good reason to suspect it, even? Why suspect it?


Damn. And I thought not taking credit from your own satalite campus with the same course name was bad.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Krensky wrote:


The credits from the UoPeople may not transfer well but they are not a diploma mill.
That's like saying someone is a murderer, but not a felon. If you offer an academic associate's degree -- and all UofP offers are academic degrees; they have no vo-tech program -- that can't be upgraded at a regionally-accredited school, you are ipso facto a diploma mill.

Can you cite this definition of a diploma mill?

My admittedly minute research indicates that your definition may not march the ordinary one:

[url=http://www.geteducated.com/college-degree-mills/161-college-degree-or-diploma-mill[/url]

Ten ways to spot a diploma mill:

1. Your chosen university is not accredited.
UotP is
2. Your chosen university is accredited … but NOT by an agency recognized by the Council on Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA) or the U.S. Department of Education.
Nope, UotP's accreditor is recognized by both
3. Admission criteria consist entirely of possession of a valid Visa or MasterCard.
Nope,

Quote:
UoPeople believes that access to Higher Education is a basic right and should be available to all regardless of geographical, social or financial barriers. However, UoPeople does have some requirements to ensure that students are academically ready for Higher Education. Applicants must be at least 18 years old, proficient in English, and able to prove that they have successfully completed High School.

4. You are offered a college degree based on a "review" of your work experience and faxed resume.

Not the case.
5. You are promised a diploma—an instant degree—within 30 days of application, regardless of your status upon entry.
Nope.
6. You are promised a degree in exchange for a lump sum—typically $399-$2,000 for an undergraduate degree and up to $3,000 for a graduate degree.
Nope.
7. Your prospective university has multiple complaints on file.
I looked at the link this site provided to search for complaints and didn't find any for UotP. I suppose there might be some elsewhere.
8. Your online "admission counselor" assures you that international online universities can’t be accredited in the United States by CHEA-recognized agencies.
Nope.
9. The school’s website either lists no faculty or lists faculty who have attended schools accredited by bogus agencies.
Nope, a look at the same catalog as earlier shows instructors with Ph.D, M.A., M.S., etc from well-known universities like UChicago or Rutgers.
10. The university offers online degrees almost exclusively to U.S. citizens but is conveniently located in a foreign country, quite often a tiny nation that lacks any system of academic accreditation.
Nope.

Hm. I'm, again, not going to stand too firmly on the source here, it's just literally the first guide to spotting a diploma mill I found on Google. Still, I'm a bit surprised that you're calling UotP a diploma mill when it not only doesn't hit all or several of the points, it actually doesn't hit any. Can you explain the apparent wide gulf in definitions here?


Orfamay Quest wrote:
That's like saying someone is a murderer, but not a felon. If you offer an academic associate's degree -- and all UofP offers are academic degrees; they have no vo-tech program -- that can't be upgraded at a regionally-accredited school, you are ipso facto a diploma mill.

For what it's worth, in an attempt to scratch slightly deeper than the first Google result, I've been doing just that - but your definition seems to disagree with every other result I'm finding too. Your definition begins to seem sharply different not only from that of a random website, but from e.g. that of the F.T.C.

Can you show that a diploma mill is what you say it is, namely, that the term encompasses every non-regionally accredited school that offers academic degrees?


Orfamay Quest wrote:

If you're thinking to use UofP as a path to an MBA and corporate executive-hood, you can't get there from here.

I'm not sure the point of the school is to turn out future CEOs? Is it possible that the large difference that seems to exist between you and other sources on the nature of diploma mills is because you have a much narrower idea of the purpose of higher education?

I mean, maybe it's aimed towards a wider field than that, like small business owners. Anecdote warning, that's what my current boss did with his (Boston University) business administration degree, he took it to learn how to run a small business.

[Sorry for the multiple posts in a row, btw, this represents a process of trying to educate myself while posting]


Put down your cigarette and drop out of BU!

School Sucks!: The Musical Interlude


It's not a diploma mill because it actually has classes. You actually need to learn something, not just send them money.

Interestingly, it's a new school. If we'd been having this discussion a few years ago, there would have been much better grounds for calling it a diploma mill. It had no accreditation. It still would have been wrong though.
Pretty much every school has to start that way. You can't get accredited in advance. Perhaps not a big surprise they went for the easier national version.
I wonder if they'll try for one of the regionals.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Krensky wrote:

Except that you wouldn't be recognized as an Accreditor by the DOE and the CHEA.

The credits from the UoPeople may not transfer well but they are not a diploma mill.

The DEAC is not a regional accreditor, but they are a recognized accreditor by both of those groups and their accreditation is respected in the field.

Transferring is not a very relevant issue. If you're attending the school, you're most likely part of a demographic that can never afford to transfer to those schools in the first place. The relevant question is whether you can do anything with a UoP degree as far as getting a job or career. The fact that it does have accreditation means it has some worth. It may not be Harvard or Yale, but those aren't quite that important at the entry level. The UofP's association with established schools such as NYU, may help in securing internships during your period of study.


Coriat wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:

If you're thinking to use UofP as a path to an MBA and corporate executive-hood, you can't get there from here.

I'm not sure the point of the school is to turn out future CEOs? Is it possible that the large divide that seems to exist between you and other sources on the nature of diploma mills is because you have a much narrower idea of the purpose of legitimate higher education?

Not really. More like I'm not confined by formal policy considerations (and subject to lobbying by the for-profit diploma mill lawyers).

I admit I use an ostensive definition. Given that the question of whether or not DeVry counts as a diploma mill is one of active debate on the Internet, and hinges mostly on semantics.... everyone agrees that its degrees are essentially valueless, and it was almost a poster child for low graduation rates, low placement rates, and high default rates on student loans. The University of Phoenix is a similar position,... or was, until Corinthian Colleges entered into that consent decree and took over the "poster child" job.

And all three are regionally accredited. So, yes, regional accreditation does not provide 100% against colleges that are largely scams.

So what does that say about colleges that can't even meet the necessary hurdles for regional accreditation?

It's not a question of the "purpose of higher education." It's a question of whether the programs in question can make the very minimal standards typified by DeVry, Phoenix, and Corinthian.


LazarX wrote:
Krensky wrote:

Except that you wouldn't be recognized as an Accreditor by the DOE and the CHEA.

The credits from the UoPeople may not transfer well but they are not a diploma mill.

The DEAC is not a regional accreditor, but they are a recognized accreditor by both of those groups and their accreditation is respected in the field.

Transferring is not a very relevant issue. If you're attending the school, you're most likely part of a demographic that can never afford to transfer to those schools in the first place.

Except the only purpose, in particular, for an A.S. in computer science is to transfer to a real school. You don't typically get enough hands-on experience to have useful job skills at that point, which is why most of the associates programs are instead in something like information technology or web design.


Here's my take on school in general:

K - 8th grade, everyone taught same thing. In 8th grade you decide whether or not you want to go onto College.
If Yes, then you are sent to High School for 9 - 12th grade and begin College Prep and some College Courses toward the career and degree of your choosing.
If No, then you are sent to a Votech to learn a trade, have an apprenticeship, and learn life skills for 2 or 3 years. At the end of which you are ready to employed in the "real world".

This would free up money so that Colleges would not have to be tuition based.

Of course, I am a fan of Comrade Anklebiter's most excellent musical interlude School Sucks!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Orfamay Quest wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Krensky wrote:

Except that you wouldn't be recognized as an Accreditor by the DOE and the CHEA.

The credits from the UoPeople may not transfer well but they are not a diploma mill.

The DEAC is not a regional accreditor, but they are a recognized accreditor by both of those groups and their accreditation is respected in the field.

Transferring is not a very relevant issue. If you're attending the school, you're most likely part of a demographic that can never afford to transfer to those schools in the first place.
Except the only purpose, in particular, for an A.S. in computer science is to transfer to a real school. You don't typically get enough hands-on experience to have useful job skills at that point, which is why most of the associates programs are instead in something like information technology or web design.

If you're at the economic level that I've referred to already, if you're looking to transfer with a UoP A.S., your most likely target would be at a community college who wouldn't be quite as snobby as Yale.

Also keep in mind that standards for third year admission are frequently less as many schools have a major drop out rate after the 2nd year.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Krensky wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Krensky wrote:

Transfer of credits from one regional accredited school to another regionally accredited school is not guaranteed. Even when it's the same regional accreditor.

I've seen classes taught by the same professor at different colleges not transfer.
Out of slightly morbid curiosity, do you mean different colleges within the same institution or two different institutions?
2 different institutions. An adjunct taught the same class at 2 different colleges and the credits did not transfer.

Meh, adjuncts.

Seriously, though,.... there are a lot of (legitimate) reasons this could happen, because the courses themselves may not be equivalent. Adjuncts are often not responsible for course content (they're handed syllabi and textbooks and told to learn their lines and hit their marks) and, depending upon the institution, two identically named classes could have radically different content.

There could even be issues with course scheduling, if University of Y has a quarter system and X College has a semester system.

Some other potential problems:
History classes that cover different periods (where does "western civ" start and stop)?
World lit classes with a different focus (what do you mean "world lit" is only European at that school?)
Calculus-based vs. non-calculus-based physics, or finance
Mandatory lab vs. non-mandatory lab.

et cetera, et cetera, world without end, selah.

I've seen it for Calculus 1 and Physics 1, which people could get AP credit for but not always college transfers, and Photography, which as a 1 off art class will rarely be taught by a non-adjunct professor and is the kind of specialized field adjuncts are really for.

Not to mention 2 tenured professors from the same university can teach the same course completely differently.


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Well look, if you're using a different definition of diploma mill than the rest of us, I'm not going to argue that it isn't a diploma mill by your definition. In fact if I had understood that that was the kind of debate that I was going to be drawn into I never would have entered it. I will voice a complaint that you in no way indicated prior to my discovering it that you were using a definition of 'diploma mill' so different from the commonly available one, though.

I feel mildly disgruntled that you weren't clear about any of this to start and that it's only after a page and a half of discussing all this that that it emerges, "Oh, I didn't mean it was THAT kind of diploma mill, you know, the kind indicated by ordinary usage of the phrase."

:/

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