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Where bards are dabblers into many forms of artistry, puppeteers are true masters of their trade: manipulation. By combining their own inner power and a touch of cunning, the puppeteer has achieved an art that can be use to, literally, put puppet strings on almost anything. The puppeteers manipulations are not limited to inanimate objects but extends to allies, foes and even concepts. Puppeteers are unique in that while some have a strong force of personality, it shines through, not themselves, but their manipulations.
Enter the Puppeteer
The closest existing base classes to this class are the bard or witch but neither really capture the essence of what it is to make others dance at the end of your (very literal) puppet strings.
With the puppeteer base class you can create a wide variety of manipulation based characters including but not limited: Walter (Hellsing), Donquixote Doflamingo (One Piece), Carl Clover (BlazBlue), Leonof of the Gung-Ho-Guns (Trigun), Neferpitou (Hunter X Hunter), Spiderman (some comic book thing) and a whole bunch more.
Play test summary to follow.
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A very interesting base class - and one I would love to play as! This could easily be one of the classes they introduce to any advanced class manual that they may release in future. Defiantly is a hybrid of the bard and rouge class, as it has the bard's entertainment and the Rouge's sneakiness. Quick little suggestion, might you consider adding a potential 'universal mastery' for those who might be unsure the other choices are right for them. All in all, very well laid out and perfectly thought through. Brilliant work my friend! :-)
Thanks Jurassic Bard. A glowing review and a good suggestion. For those that want to try out multiple puppeteer masteries with the same character, I recommend the Dabbler flair. It is a straight up trade: specialization for versatility which is usually what a "universal mastery" provides. Though your suggestion has given me a good idea for a potential puppeteer archetype.
On to the play test summary I promised:
Play test summary
This is with a level 4 puppeteer in the Plunder and Peril Module. I chose the puppet mastery (homunununculus) and dabbled (dabbler flair) with some strings (string mastery with gossamer razors). It made me very aware of how fragile the manipulations really are. If you take a hit, you need to concentrate. Luckily the GM was nice and didn't smack my puppeteer around, mainly because I was hiding behind my 8 hardness gargoyle shaped familiar (improved metal familiar flair).
The usually-a-goat familiar (though I realized a hawk or owl familiar is probably a better choice) was a great shield though its attacks were a bit ineffectual. The gossamer razors did their job and decapitated many heads with decent damage which was comparable to the lvl 4 swashbuckler's damage (~15 dmg per hit). Though unlike the swashbuckler, the puppeteer had to spend an ingenuity point (through Barbed Coils) each round to do so.
All in all a fun class to play... just don't stand in the front line.
What kind of puppeteer would you like to try?
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Same as you, Avianfoo, the puppet mastery and using the dabbler flair (something I completely overlooked) I'd mix it with the string mastery. One thing I just thought about, shouldn't the puppeteer have diplomacy as a class skill? The reason I say that is because, when you are able to manipulate things, convincing others to see your point of view should come naturally. Beyond that, the puppeteer is the only other class I would actively be (I have RP as a sorcerer in one game and a witch in another, but I always favour being a bard as it has all the qualities I go for, the non-combat diplomatic figure that serves as the heart and soul of the group).
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It is a really tough decision to not include diplomacy as a class skill. The idea here is that the puppeteer is the shadow leader, the guy that actually runs the party behind the scenes (like the puppets they are). To that end bluff is a much more manipulative skill for the puppeteer to have. Not including diplomacy also enhances the idea that while the puppeteer will have a decent charisma, he is not the face of the party (though can be if necessary).
But ultimately it's your character so picking up diplomacy as a class skill through a trait is an easy workaround. :)
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The puppeteer is a class based on the ability to create ethereal strings. These strings can be used by the puppeteer to lash out directly, animate an object (or element or bones), or attach them to allies to give them a boost or attach them to enemies to hamper or turn them into an ally (through the use of spells). The puppeteer selects a puppeteer mastery at first level and gains access to choose related string manipulations.
The puppeteer also gains a pool of ingenuity points which can be spent to gain short lasting boosts to himself. But most of all the puppeteer uses his ingenuity to power is assortment of flairs. Flairs are very much like alchemist discoveries or rogue talents, but they also tie into his string manipulations.
Flairs allow the puppeteer to, amongst others:
- Create his very own life-like puppet that could look like anything.
- Create a elemental/bone/object steed and ride it.
- Climb inside his animated object and pilot it from inside.
- Use his strings as a rope and eventually swing across the sky.
It is a really tough decision to not include diplomacy as a class skill. The idea here is that the puppeteer is the shadow leader, the guy that actually runs the party behind the scenes (like the puppets they are). To that end bluff is a much more manipulative skill for the puppeteer to have. Not including diplomacy also enhances the idea that while the puppeteer will have a decent charisma, he is not the face of the party (though can be if necessary).
But ultimately it's your character so picking up diplomacy as a class skill through a trait is an easy workaround. :)
I agree with bluff over diplomacy.
I agree with bluff over diplomacy.It is a really tough decision to not include diplomacy as a class skill. The idea here is that the puppeteer is the shadow leader, the guy that actually runs the party behind the scenes (like the puppets they are). To that end bluff is a much more manipulative skill for the puppeteer to have. Not including diplomacy also enhances the idea that while the puppeteer will have a decent charisma, he is not the face of the party (though can be if necessary).
But ultimately it's your character so picking up diplomacy as a class skill through a trait is an easy workaround. :)
Why not both...?
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Very interesting looking class! I kept looking for holes (it's what I do, not to exploit but to see what might be exploitable, I try to keep balance in mind when critiquing) and was impressed, to say the least. This is well put together, with clear enough wording on the mechanics of the class that there should be few issues. Speaking of, I LOVE the mechanics. The fluff, and the complexity-without-being-overly-complex feel of the whole class work well together. It's a class I'd love to play, and feel sound in letting my players try out (which is saying a lot, I usually rule out third party/other-player-made stuff, a few things being the exception.)
Unique mechanics, feels like a solid pathfinder class, plenty of character themes to work with, and overall really cool! 5 out of 5, Avianfoo!
Why not both...?
I agree with bluff over diplomacy.
Why don't the sorcerer and summoner, who are Charisma based characters, have Diplomacy as a class skill? As for the puppeteer, I have already given the thematic reason. The mechanical reason is that the puppeteer already has a decent set of skills.
But, also as mentioned earlier, Diplomacy can be picked up as a class skill by using a trait. And it also provides an extra +1 trait bonus.
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Unique mechanics, feels like a solid pathfinder class, plenty of character themes to work with, and overall really cool! 5 out of 5, Avianfoo!
Thanks for the glowing review. :)
I can see this class getting frustrating if the puppeteer keeps getting hit and failing his concentration check to maintain his manipulations. But even for those situations there is the mastermind flair.
I've been holding off responding to this one. I had to decide if I liked it or not, and as of this morning I do. I don't remember what it looked like when it was first posted, but the presentation is great. Easy to read. What put me off originally was that its kind of a complicated class. I think you have cleaned that up some though. You need, so that the complicated bits are easier to understand.
Skills
Short list, but a good one. You compare this class to the bard. I'm curious why you changed you didn't do more skill points. Is it because of the manipulations and mysteries?
Saves
Only one instead of two. Same question as above.
Manipulations
If this is the core of the class, then this is where you need to focus for now. I like the intent, but needs clarity since it is meant to be used for the character's entire career. The bit about the range. Do you mean that the original attack can only be made up to 30 feet away, but that the effect ends if the target is more than 60 feet away? This is wonky. It also implies that the puppeteer doesn't get better. I would make it a ranged attack with a range increment (10 ft, 20 ft?). You could say that the string breaks when a certain range is reached, such as 30 ft + 5 feet per level. I would retain Dexterity for the attack roll, and maybe allow changing that with a flair. Thats a big maybe. Next, I would change the uses per day. I'm not a fan of the 3 + ability mod mechanic. You've granted ways to fire off and maintain multiple strings at higher levels, but not many uses. How about 1/2 level + ability mod?
As far as the wording goes, I would go back to the drawing board. Copy and paste from existing rules, then make modifications. This lets the reader know that the mechanic works similarly to what they already know. As written, it takes some work to understand.
I would remove the undead stuff from the dominion mystery, and replace it with more charm related stuff. You already have an undead-themed mystery.
Ooh. My first criticism. Let's dig in.
I've been holding off responding to this one. I had to decide if I liked it or not, and as of this morning I do. I don't remember what it looked like when it was first posted, but the presentation is great. Easy to read. What put me off originally was that its kind of a complicated class. I think you have cleaned that up some though. You need, so that the complicated bits are easier to understand.
The first two lines are a nice backhanded compliment. So um. Thanks. So here is the rub: my puppeteer class has never been posted before. This is the first time anyone outside friends have seen it, so I am not sure what you are referring to. A link would help.
Skills
Short list, but a good one. You compare this class to the bard. I'm curious why you changed you didn't do more skill points. Is it because of the manipulations and mysteries?
No mysteries, just masteries containing manipulations and flairs which are better than bardic abilities in some respects but not as good with entire party buffing. The puppeteers spell-list is also better than a bards. So the skills should be not quite as good. While the are still decent. It's difficult to compare this class directly to others since it is very much its own, but we try anyway: It has a bit of rogue, bard, summoner, and sorcerer all mixed together.
Saves
Only one instead of two. Same question as above.
Same answer as above.
Manipulations
If this is the core of the class, then this is where you need to focus for now. I like the intent, but needs clarity since it is meant to be used for the character's entire career. The bit about the range. Do you mean that the original attack can only be made up to 30 feet away, but that the effect ends if the target is more than 60 feet away? This is wonky. It also implies that the puppeteer doesn't get better. I would make it a ranged attack with a range increment (10 ft, 20 ft?). You could say that the string breaks when a certain range is reached, such as 30 ft + 5 feet per level. I would retain Dexterity for the attack roll, and maybe allow changing that with a flair. Thats a big maybe. Next, I would change the uses per day. I'm not a fan of the 3 + ability mod mechanic. You've granted ways to fire off and maintain multiple strings at higher levels, but not many uses. How about 1/2 level + ability mod?
I realised a concept like "string range" has not been done before. This is supposed to bring home that the puppeteer is creating magical strings that can't stretch too far. It attaches within 30 feet and can stretch up to 60 feet. The reaching string flair extends this by 10 feet to 40 feet and a maximum of 80 feet respectively (maximum is always double string range) And it can be taken multiple times. So, yes, it never gets better unless you want it to, but most of the time the 60 foot maximum is enough. The done and dusted range increment mechanic is a fiddly one that becomes extra unnecessary work on touch attacks.
The suggestion to make the attack a dexterity based one has merit, and I am tempted to do just that, although it does make the class a bit more MAD.The uses per day suggestion I also like although at low levels the 1/2 level + ability mod is a bit low. It's actually fine until 4th level when the puppeteer is first able to have two manipulations at the same time.
As far as the wording goes, I would go back to the drawing board. Copy and paste from existing rules, then make modifications. This lets the reader know that the mechanic works similarly to what they already know. As written, it takes some work to understand.
Ironically, this is exactly what I have done for the mechanics that are the same. Everything at the start until the manipulation ability is lifted from a rule book. From there the only similar rules wording wise are the flairs which use the last prerequisites line from rogue talents. Can it be made more understandable? Sure. But I don't posses the ability to do so.
I would remove the undead stuff from the dominion mystery, and replace it with more charm related stuff. You already have an undead-themed mystery.
Good point. This comes from the order the masteries were created. Dominion, puppet, string and shadow were the firsts. Then elemental. Fate and bones followed later. The War mastery didn't make the cut.
That said, having some undead control in the dominion mastery is not strictly incorrect either.I really like that all the suggestions provided here are almost all an increase in power. I specifically designed this class not to eclipse another and as such be a bit weaker in some aspects. This class is not an alternate class for a bard nor sorcerer nor summoner, but rather a class on its own though it does share some aspects with those classes.
Backhandedness not intention. I looked at it the day you posted it and wasn't into it. Yesterday I looked again and felt differently. If it is exactly the same both times then I do not remember it being so. Maybe my perspective changed.
The mention of bard was due to your opening sentence. I took that as an intentional comparison on your part.
Using dexterity for string attacks makes it no more MAD than any other class with ranged attacks. Spellcasters who want to avoid save DCs use touch attacks. Those who don't want to be in melee use ranged touch attacks.
I will post my wording suggestions for Manipulations when I have more time to sit down and type.
Backhandedness not intention. I looked at it the day you posted it and wasn't into it. Yesterday I looked again and felt differently. If it is exactly the same both times then I do not remember it being so.
No problem. No changes were made after I posted it here :) I am tempted to add some of your excellent suggestions but I am holding off a bit to give others a chance to take in the puppeteer as it stands now.
Using dexterity for string attacks makes it no more MAD than any other class with ranged attacks.
Yes and no. Currently the class uses Charisma for casting and manipulations, and Intelligence for flairs. Constitution should always be decent but that is just a good idea. Adding Dexterity to the mix definitely increases the MADness which is why I added that one line. I will definitely mull this over a bit.
Thats like saying a cleric should be able to make attack rolls with his Wisdom.
Anyhow, I don't see what kind of action it is to begin a manipulation. You only talk about maintaining concentration. I wasn't sure if it was a standard action to begin one, or if it was in place of an attack.
Thats like saying a cleric should be able to make attack rolls with his Wisdom.
A closer analogy would be saying its like a cleric should make his cure spell touch attack rolls using his Wisdom modifier instead of Strength (which actually sounds kind of nice). The puppeteer ability is only for manipulations touch attack, nothing else. Puppeteers normal ranged attacks still use Dexterity. This is definitely not an Int-based zen archer.
Anyhow, I don't see what kind of action it is to begin a manipulation. You only talk about maintaining concentration. I wasn't sure if it was a standard action to begin one, or if it was in place of an attack.
Manipulations are a spell-like ability, so it's a standard action. Which means it provokes AoOs when its started. Maybe this is not necessary and it could be changed to a supernatural ability but for now it's a spell-like ability.
Also now seriously considering changing the number of uses of a manipulation to 1/2 puppeteer level + Charisma modifier (minimum 1).
An alchemist has Fast Bombs, so maybe a new flair could allow a puppeteer with a high BAB to launch more than one string with a fullk-round action. You could get a little crazy if you pulled two-handed fighting into it too.
Manipulation (Su): A puppeteer can creates barely visible ethereal strings that extend from his fingertips to affect the world around him. As a standard action, he can make an incorporeal ranged touch attack against a creature or object up to 30 feet away from him. If the attack succeeds, he can use a manipulation he knows. The manipulations he can use depend on the Mastery he choses. Additionally, some Flairs affect the way manipulations work. If the attack misses, the manipulation is not wasted. The puppeteer can use his manipulations a number of times per day equal to 1/2 his level + his Charisma modifier.
When he begins a manipulation, the target must be within range. If the target is ever more than twice his range, the strings snap and the manipulation ends. A puppeteer's manipulation remains active for as long as he concentrates (as though it were a spell). He can end a manipulation as a free action. String cannot pass through force effects (such as a wall of force), but can wrap around them. Each string has a number of hit point equal to the puppeteer's level + his Charisma modifier. If reduced to zero hit points, the string is severed and the manipulation ends. Only attacks that can affect ethereal objects normally (such as such as force effects) can target the strings. A string is also damaged if the target is protected by an abjuration effect that deals damage and is immediately severed if the target is under the effect of an abjuration that prevents interplanar travel.
A puppeteer must have at least one hand free to use this ability and to continue to concentrate on it. Beginning at 4th level a puppeteer with two hands free can concentration can concentrate on a manipulation as a move action. Beginning at 8th level, a puppeteer with one hand free can concentrate on a manipulation as a move action. Beginning at 12th level a puppeteer with two hands free can concentration can concentrate on a manipulation as a swift action. Beginning at 16th level a puppeteer with two hands free can concentration can concentrate on a manipulation as a swift action. The Difficulty Class of any saving throw allowed by a puppeteer’s manipulation is 10 + 1/2 the puppeteer’s level + his Charisma modifier.
An alchemist has Fast Bombs, so maybe a new flair could allow a puppeteer with a high BAB to launch more than one string with a fullk-round action. You could get a little crazy if you pulled two-handed fighting into it too.
Meta manipulations allows the puppeteer to start manipulations faster.
Manipulation (Su): A puppeteer ...
Nicely done. The wording is concise and near to what I want. I would prefer to keep the limitations imposed by having a manipulation a spell-like ability (provokes AoO when it is created) and if the original attack misses the manipulation is wasted. These are mitigated to an extent at lvl 12 when the puppeteer picks up the meta manipulation. The attack only really matters against enemies since for allies and animating objects/bones/Elementals it will pretty much always land (also there is a flair, live fibre, that makes this automatic).
Also using the same mechanic for attaching a string and attacking directly with a string makes a boat load of sense.I will now remove the string range concept. Functionally the ranges and flairs will stay the same, but there will be no more references to string range.
Also thanks a bunch for your interest and suggestions, keep them coming. (I really am enjoying that all the suggestions so far have been power boosts.)
Change what you like. Glad some of it was helpful. I realize now some of it is wrong because it doesn't take into account all of the other class features.
The only other suggestion I had was that there were one or more manipulations that all puppeteers had access to. Something with a very general use. This would reduce the number gained from mastery, but that's how I would go about it.
I'll get around to looking at some other features soon.
Thanks. Your comments are very helpful and much appreciated.
A chosen mastery only gives access to that masteries manipulations and then the puppeteer gains a single manipulation from any manipulations he has access to (usually just the one) at 1st level and every 2 levels there after (3rd, 5th etc)
When it was first created, the puppeteer could select a manipulation from any mastery which was a bit too, well, unrestricted. Now there is the Dabbler flair which allows dabbling into other masteries but without gaining extra spells in his spell list or the extra ultimate ability.
With a second request to add a "universally available" manipulation, I am more inclined to look into it. Though I am not sure what such a manipulation would do that hasn't been done already. The more general minor abilities are handled by flairs.
On a completely unrelated note: I realise now what changed after I posted the puppeteer here. I added the table of contents :)
The puppeteer base class has been updated with the following:
- Manipulation uses per day has been changed to 1/2 puppeteer level + Charisma modifier.
- Attacking with a string now uses Dexterity modifier, as normal, instead of Intelligence.
- A new flair has been added which allows the puppeteer to use Intelligence modifier for attacks with strings instead of Dexterity.
The manipulation ability has been slightly reworded but functionally is the same as previously.
Universal manipulation(s) still to come.
You mention in the document having several strings attached a target, but the limited uses and the standard action would make that hard to do. Have you considered changing the act of launching a string at a target so that it doesn't expend a manipulation? What I'm getting at is separating the strings mechanic from the manipulation mechanic.
The puppet strings ability would allow the puppeteer to lauch one or more strings at a time. The more he launches, the less accurate he is, but he might land multiple. Maybe each strings costs him a hit point or something.
Once a string is landed, he is ready to activate other abilities through it.
1) Beginning or continuing a manipulations is a move action and no longer requires no attack roll, so it cannot be wasted.
2) Spells with a range of touch require no attack roll and automatically succeed.
3) This can be how he begins Skill Projection too.
4) The more strings that are attached, the greater his "strength" score is when atttempting to lift objects, or he pulls or entangles creatures. One string would only affect small creatures, while a giant might require a dozen. A few string would be enough to help an ally leap over a pit. One string is all that would be neccessary when using his spells and supernatural abilities that have limited uses per day.
The more I think about this, the more I'm starting to visualize Spiderman. :)
You mention in the document having several strings attached a target, but the limited uses and the standard action would make that hard to do. Have you considered changing the act of launching a string at a target so that it doesn't expend a manipulation? What I'm getting at is separating the strings mechanic from the manipulation mechanic.
Currently (for those that read these forums but are allergic to rules docs) the manipulations ability creates strings. One manipulation creates multiple strings that all work in concert. All the strings of a manipulation are bundled together. If one string is cut, all the strings for that manipulation ,and only that manipulation, are all cut. Thematically, a puppeteer pulls on many strings to make a puppet dance.
Some flairs do not form part of a manipulation but create strings to do their own specific things like make a rope. Or to feel around in the dark.
So to an extent strings and manipulations are separate things but they have a very strong relationship. You can't have manipulations without strings but you can have strings without manipulations (by using flairs).
There are some abilities that I call "riders": they ride along with an already attached manipulation.
Once a string is landed, he is ready to activate other abilities through it.
1) Beginning or continuing a manipulations is a move action and no longer requires no attack roll, so it cannot be wasted.
2) Spells with a range of touch require no attack roll and automatically succeed.
3) This can be how he begins Skill Projection too.
4) The more strings that are attached, the greater his "strength" score is when atttempting to lift objects, or he pulls or entangles creatures. One string would only affect small creatures, while a giant might require a dozen. A few string would be enough to help an ally leap over a pit. One string is all that would be neccessary when using his spells and supernatural abilities that have limited uses per day.
How the puppeteer currently functions:
1) miss the original string attachment and the manipulation is wasted. Concentrating is a standard action.2) A flair does this: Conductive Strings (normal and improved versions). This is meant as a rider for the Brain Parade manipulation, but can be used with any offensive manipulation.
3) Skill projection ability can be used by simply touching the target. The added utility of being able to use skill projection through manipulations is specifically for allies already being buffed or objects being animated.
4) the strength of the strings are abstracted away (Magic!) or simply already factored into the abilities. Though there is a lot of flair potential here.
Clearly, the concern here is that there are a few nice flairs that enhance manipulations, but if the manipulations miss then those flairs are effectively dead. How about a relatively weak universal manipulation, that can be used more times per day, and can serve as a vehicle for these flairs and even skill projection?
The more I think about this, the more I'm starting to visualize Spiderman. :)
Try Sky Hook and Grappling Braid flairs :)
You have some great ideas, and what I am suggesting is changing the core mechanic for the better IMO. You have maniplations, flairs, and some other features. They all reference and use strings, but you haven't really defined strings, except in the manipulations feature.
If these things all use strings, I feel that it would be best that strings are the core mechanic - instead of manipulations - and have all of the other abilities build off of that. Strings by themselves could have a limited effect but have unlimited use, with about the potency of a cantrip. All other class features would rely of the general rules set forth in strings.
Once the core mechanic is set, you are free to leet your imagination fly elsewhere without needing to redefine things is one class feature when you make a change to another. It would also be helpful if you decided to make archetypes. Perhaps one retains strings but looses manipulations. Crazy example, I know, but Spiderman will thank you. :)
Anyhow, just trying to be helpful.
I'll look over the class with more detail later, but here are my first impressions.
1) A class centered around attaching magical threads to creatures and objects and controlling them like a puppet is really interesting. I've harshly criticized many classes on this forum because they lacked a unique/interesting mechanic worthy of an entire class. The puppeteer definitely deserves to be its own class and serves as a good foundation for a number of character concepts thanks to puppeteer masteries.
2) I got really confused when I first looked at the manipulation ability text. The text spends three paragraphs explaining the rules around manipulation without actually saying what the power actually does or how it benefits the player. I didn't understand it until I saw one of the puppeteer masteries. I highly recommend rewriting this ability to keep it simple and concise and clue that the benefits of the ability are listed elsewhere.
3) If concentrating on a manipulation doesn't follow most of the rules for concentration, then it shouldn't be called "concentration."
4) As a addition to #3, I agree with Ciaran that the strings should be better defined. Perhaps there's something you can do with the strings by themselves as defined under the manipulation text.
5) I find it odd that this class has a 3/4 BAB and needs to be within close range to use its main class feature, and yet they can never use that BAB to fight because they need to spend all their action economy on manipulation. It might be interesting that manipulation works by having the puppeteer sacrifice basic attacks to have their puppet attack instead. Almost like Azir from League of Legends. In other words, instead of manipulation working by maintaining "concentration," he performs actions using his puppets as if he were performing the action himself. Any action the puppet does uses his action economy. This would help make the class more distinct than just a summoner and allow other abilities to hook onto this mechanic.
Anyhow, just trying to be helpful.
And you are being very helpful and raising a few valid points. I am looking into the strings as their own ability thing.
I'll look over the class with more detail later, but here are my first impressions.
First impressions are important, and thanks for your interest.
... I've harshly criticized many classes on this forum because they lacked a unique/interesting mechanic worthy of an entire class. ...
Harsh criticisms have not gone unnoticed. And they point out what most were thinking anyway. :) So, carry on.
2) I got really confused when I first looked at the manipulation ability text. The text spends three paragraphs explaining the rules around manipulation without actually saying what the power actually does or how it benefits the player. I didn't understand it until I saw one of the puppeteer masteries. I highly recommend rewriting this ability to keep it simple and concise and clue that the benefits of the ability are listed elsewhere.
The manipulations text has been redone slightly and that line about the manipulations and flairs fell off. I will put it back. Simple and concise = easier said than done. :)
3) If concentrating on a manipulation doesn't follow most of the rules for concentration, then it shouldn't be called "concentration."
It does follow most of the rules except one: spells and manipulations can be started while concentrating on the a previous manipulation. Later the puppeteer can spend different actions to concentrate on the manipulations.
4) As a addition to #3, I agree with Ciaran that the strings should be better defined. Perhaps there's something you can do with the strings by themselves as defined under the manipulation text.
Looking into it.
5) I find it odd that this class has a 3/4 BAB and needs to be within close range to use its main class feature, and yet they can never use that BAB to fight because they need to spend all their action economy on manipulation.
Are you saying the class should have more BA or less? Manipulations still require an attack to attach at very least and there is at least 1 manipulation that can be used to attack directly. That is before even looking at the mastermind flair.
It might be interesting that manipulation works by having the puppeteer sacrifice basic attacks to have their puppet attack instead. Almost like Azir from League of Legends. In other words, instead of manipulation working by maintaining "concentration," he performs actions using his puppets as if he were performing the action himself. Any action the puppet does uses his action economy.
The class was specifically designed so that this would not be the case. The concentration as a base mechanic puts a limiter on manipulations. In some cases the puppeteer won't do so well due to having to make concentration checks. On the flip side, if the puppeteer can get multiple manipulations going, he gets the full benefits of those manipulations. If he gets hit, that's 2 concentration checks. Don't like concentrating the whole time? Mastermind flair.
This would help make the class more distinct than just a summoner and allow other abilities to hook onto this mechanic.
Out of the 21 manipulations, 4 can be compared to a summon effect. "Summoning", or more thematically, animating objects, bones, elements and shadows is just one facet of the class.
It does follow most of the rules except one: spells and manipulations can be started while concentrating on the a previous manipulation. Later the puppeteer can spend different actions to concentrate on the manipulations.3) If concentrating on a manipulation doesn't follow most of the rules for concentration, then it shouldn't be called "concentration."
Changing the action economy of it is a pretty big difference. This class has some major action economy issues. Being able to cast spells and use this ability also raises a lot of questions. You can't just say "the puppeteer can start casting a spell without breaking concentration" because concentrating on a spell is an on-going activity. If it were me, I'd make it work more like bardic performance or rage except you have to spend an action to renew it that provokes an attack of opportunity.
5) I find it odd that this class has a 3/4 BAB and needs to be within close range to use its main class feature, and yet they can never use that BAB to fight because they need to spend all their action economy on manipulation.Are you saying the class should have more BA or less? Manipulations still require an attack to attach at very least and there is at least 1 manipulation that can be used to attack directly. That is before even looking at the mastermind flair.
I'm saying they should have more ways to use their BAB. They can't make any attacks while manipulating and having a BAB doesn't confer any benefit to his manipulations. It just feels like a waste. I do think giving them a 3/4 BAB and 6-level spellcasting is a good fit. And having manipulation be limited by requiring a standard action and additional action economy tax each round is a smart idea. However, it feels weird that he has a good BAB but cannot perform attacks or use it in any other way.
Much of this comes from experience when working on one of my classes. I had a class that needed a standard action to gain a resource, a standard action to use the resource and perform his primary blasting attack. In addition, he had a medium BAB and can cast spells. He had way too many things to do with his standard action. Your class seems like it will have plenty of action economy issues that make it really annoying to play.
Also, touch attacks were designed for low BAB characters. Even low BAB characters can easily land touch attacks, especially at higher levels. As a result, touch attacks are easy for a medium BAB character. Initiating a manipulation should be relatively easy to create a simple minion because the class has to use up a standard action just to start using their main class feature. However, i wouldn't call a touch attack a good way to utilize the BAB.
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On the string manipulation, invisible web, the puppeteer needs to be able to fill less cubes than his maximun so he doesn't fill an entire room when he only needs to trap a door.
It needs a flair to upgrade Grappling braid/ Gossamer Razor so you can attach your strings to stuff and pull them back to you. Like Scorpions 'Get over here' move from Mortal Kombat
Grappling Braid should be able to attach to two points so you can make a tighrope/ropebridge for people to cross.
Also needs a flair so you can as an immediate action attach strings to an ally and pull the back from danger or save them from a fall. Something like give them a +2 to reflex and if they pass you can move them 5 feet in a direction of your choice. If used on a falling ally you pull them with a line or make a net to catch them so they don't take falling damage.
How about a mastery about attaching strings to enemies and messing with their movements
Malicious Puppeteering: attach string to an enemy and plague them with random jerky movements gives some penalties to attack and movement speed, improved when he misses an attack you can make him reroll that attack against another target in range, greater stop him from making 5ft steps or AoO unless he passes a reflex save
Barbed Hook: Pull a single enemy towards you, improved pull or push enemies in any direction but always in a straight line, greater throw enemies up in the air or pull them to the ground if they're flying. If you beat the enemies CmD he can choose to not move but instead take damage as the hooks rip from his skin.
String Trap: You can subtly snake strings around the target or burrow them trough the earth to form a trap. Choose a square in your manipulation range to trap, any creatures that enter the square take damage equal to your int mod and are flatfooted until the beginning of your next round. Perception to notice the trap is X, DC to disarm the trap is X, the trap is a magical trap. If you are observed you can roll stealth against your opponents perception so they won't notice you are laying the trap. Even if they notice they need a perception check againstthe trap DC to notice the trap. Improved, the target loses dexterity to AC for one round, or you can use the trap to start another manipulation or flair that attaches to an enemy. The trap lasts for int rounds even after you stop concentrating on it. Greater, you trap two squares with a single action, these squares don't need to be consecutive and can be occupied. The trap now does your int mod damage in a five foot radius when triggered and instead of the other effects it can temporally blind mute or paralyze the target that triggered the trap.
Ultimate: Enemy Puppet: Make one enemy fight for you as if controlled by Dominate Monster. Short duration but you can change the save to fort. The enemy is aware that he is being manipulated.
... Maybe exchange String Trap with Invisible Web.
Edit: On the BAB usage:
Allow Gossamer Razors to be a full round action to attack multiple times with your BAB. Make it attack normal AC instead of touch. increase the enhancement bonus a little so it can be comparable to a secondary weapon on a frontline PC so +1 +1 for every four levels on improved (up to +5) and +2 +1 for every three level on greater (up to +8) on grater.
On Dancing Weapon, on improved allow the Puppeteer to to get a second dancing weapon gaining an extra attack at full BAB but with a -2 to all attacks, or add a dancing shield to incrase AC, or if using a single weapon gain a +1 to attack. on Greater allow for a third dancing weapon (another attack at full BAB, no extra penalty) two weapons and one shield, single weapon and shield for +1 attack and AC or single weapon for +2 attack and damage. Each weapon can attack a different target as long as all targets are inside your maximun manipulation range.
New Flairs:
String Fighter: The Puppeteer can select his string as a weapon for the purpose of feats like Weapon Focus. He counts 1/2 his total puppeteer level as his fighter level for the purpose of qualifying for feats. If he has levels in fighter, these levels stack. Feats that increase damage increase the damage of Dancing Weapon and Gossamer Razors.
String Training: The puppeteer gains +1 attack and damage when using Dancing Weapons and Gossamer Razors. This increases to +2 at 8th level and to +3 at 16th level.
This class has some major action economy issues.
Having played the class, it really doesn't have action economy issues. Each action is a choice. Manipulations are powerful enough that I will happily forgo casting spells in favor of having two manipulations active at the same time. But that is just me. Other players can choose to have manipulations via a mastermind and cast their spells. No concentration check, no supposingly superfluous actions. But in taking the mastermind, the puppeteer is limited in other ways: limited to 1 active manipulation, 1 flair down and 1 ingenuity point per use to keep it all running.
Being able to cast spells and use this ability also raises a lot of questions.
Some questions:
How does this actually work?
A puppeteer can cast spells, concentrate on spells and start a new manipulation while concentrating on a manipulation provided he has the actions to do so. (Thanks for pointing out the concentrating on spells loophole. Although I don't remember adding concentration spells to the puppeteers spell list, one could have slipped through.)
Does this mean he can cast a spell with 1 minute casting time and concentrate on a manipulation?
No. The 1 minute casting time will be interrupted 1 round after it's started, by the concentration action, be it a standard, move or swift action.
I'm saying they should have more ways to use their BAB. They can't make any attacks while manipulating and having a BAB doesn't confer any benefit to his manipulations. It just feels like a waste.
At 8th level, the puppeteer can make attacks with a single handed weapon while concentrating on a manipulation. Or from 4th level the puppeteer can attack with a 2 handed weapon while employing the mastermind to keep his manipulations running. Just because the puppeteer has manipulations doesn't mean they have to be used. And that is ignoring the manipulations that actually use the puppeteers BA. So I wouldn't say it is wasted at all. The 3/4 BA allows for some interesting builds that a 1/2 BA wouldn't make viable. Like a bow wielding mwangi jungle puppeteer with protecting earth totem (elemental).
On the string manipulation... loads of excellent suggestions
These are great suggestions. I can't believe I overlooked the old 'get over here' ability. I'm going to be saying 'get over here' for at least half an hour.
Does this mean he can cast a spell with 1 minute casting time and concentrate on a manipulation?No. The 1 minute casting time will be interrupted 1 round after it's started, by the concentration action, be it a standard, move or swift action.
Is this with or without the recent change you made?
Is this with or without the recent change you made?Does this mean he can cast a spell with 1 minute casting time and concentrate on a manipulation?No. The 1 minute casting time will be interrupted 1 round after it's started, by the concentration action, be it a standard, move or swift action.
Both :)
The bolded bit below I added thanks to your comments and questions. The rest is as it was:
A puppeteer can cast spells, concentrate on spells and start a new manipulation while concentrating on a manipulation provided he has the actions to do so.
I did not even consider spells with a concentration duration, so well caught.
Alright, great!
UPDATE - Puppeteer v1.1
First off, thanks for all the suggestions, comments, questions and concerns.
While the class has remained functionally the same, I have updated some of the more poorly worded areas to be clearer (with alot of help). The actual functional changes since v1.0 are as follows:
- As already mentioned earlier, the number of manipulations per day has "increased" to 1/2 puppeteer level + his Charisma modifier from 3 + Charisma modifier. This is actually a decrease at low levels and from level 8 onwards an increase.
- Added the Universal Manipulations section. Basically a set of manipulations (currently only one) that can always be taken no matter what the puppeteers mastery is.
- A tweak for maintaining a manipulation: The hand which is used to keep the manipulation running can also be used to cast spells (provided the puppeteer has the actions to do so)
- The Brain Parade manipulation is also slightly tweaked: While concentrating on this manipulation as a standard action, the puppeteer can also cast a spell. This is specifically important for this manipulation since the manipulation itself provides buffs for spell casting. Before this change, it was useless before 4th level.
- The rules for the puppeteers strings, I have moved out of the manipulations ability and put it into a "sidebar". Now the manipulations ability has only got the rules for manipulations. The main reason for this is that strings can be created by flairs without starting a manipulation.
- Last but not least, if a manipulation fails to land, it does not consume a manipulation use. Firstly the wasted standard action (until late levels) is a harsh enough of a punishment, and the manipulations will likely fail due to failed concentration checks (but at least they happened).
Still more to come. get over here
While I am making some more universal manipulation(s) and a few extra flairs in the background, are there any manipulations or flairs you would like to have/use/see?
Update
Added a universal manipulation called universal puppetry which allows the puppeteer to 'twitch' (5ft step) allies and enemies over the battlefield (and off it) among other things.
Added Braid Harpoon and Belaying Braid flairs which are specializations of Grappling Braid. One is used to reel in enemies and the other is used to instantly save allies with a braid of strings.
Updated Grappling Braid to be a universal flair. Because everyone should have fun with braids.
Finally updated Dabbler flair to be named Mastery Dabbler instead.
Hmm, this class leads me to consider Walter from Hellsing: http://hellsing.wikia.com/wiki/Walter_C._Dornez
I will say this is a very nice class indeed, I like the flavor and the abilities.
I stand here not on the whim of anyone else... I stand before you to satisfy my own means. I stand here for Walter C. Dornez.
(I mentioned Walter in my first post :) )
Ah, so you have... well that merely means the parallels are more purposeful. Chuckles
That said, while you can make a Walter-like character, the puppeteer class was designed to be a class that can stand on its own. One that doesn't force players to play a specific character.
Made an archetype.
Musical Manipulations: At fist level the String Musician can create barely visible ethereal strings that extend from the strings of a musical instrument. Hands used to hold or play a string instrument, such as a harp, guitar or lyre, are considered free for the purpose of starting using and concentrating on manipulations. The String Musician can still create strings and use manipulations without an instrument, but his manipulation range is diminished by half. This alters the Manipulation ability.
Sound Mastery: The String Musician adds the following Manipulation as a Universal Manipulation and he gains access to sound flairs:
String Orchestra: The String Musician attaches Strings to all objects and surfaces in his range and uses those strings to play a Bardic Performance. This Bardic Performance has an audible component and lasts as long as the String Musician concentrates on this manipulation. The String Musician can use Inspire Courage or Fascinate, as a Bard of the same level. Improved: The String Musician can use Suggestion and Dirge of Doom as a Bard of his level. He can also spend a standard action make powerful Sound Burst. This is a ranged touch attack to any enemy inside his maximum manipulation range that deal 1d4 + the String Musician Cha modifier as sonic damage (Fort for half). Greater: The String Musician can now perform Inspire Heroics and Soothing Performance as a Bard of his level. In addition his Sound Burst now deal 1d8 +half is String Musician class level.
Well Versed: At second level the String Musician becomes resistant to the bardic performance of others, and to sonic effects in general. The String Musician gains a +4 bonus on saving throws made against bardic performance, sonic, and language-dependent effects. This replaces Dominant.
Versatile Performance: At second level the String Musician can use his bonus on the Perform (String Instrument) instead of his bonus on Bluff and Diplomacy. When substituting in this way, the String Musician uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill.
New Flairs:
Discordant Vibrations*(Su) (sound): You gain the Discordant Voice feat, and can use with any performance made with String Orchestra. Prereq: String Musician level 11.
Vibration*(Su) (sound): When using string Orchestra you can attach strings to a single ally or enemy. If used that way the performance functions only on that person instead of in an area. When used like that the performance loses its audible and mind affecting components as the strings vibrations carry the performance directly to the creatures brain. If used on an enemy increase the DC of Fascinate Suggestion and Sound Burst +2. If used on an ally the String Musician can use Inspire Courage and Inspire Heroics at the same time. Prereq: String Musician level 13, Greater String Orchestra.
String Telephony(Ex) (sound): The String Musician can attach a string to any object he touches. As long as the object is within his maximum manipulation range he can hear anything said around the object as if he were there in person. He can also send his voice to appear as if coming from the object. He can also send whispers that can only be heard by anyone touching the object.
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Made an archetype.
** spoiler omitted **...
Awesome. I like idea.
I would like to rewrite it a bit to make it a tad less powerful. Like limiting the number of targets for string orchestra. Currently this archetype gives access to bardic performances before a bard normally gets them. Also something to remember with manipulations is that a puppeteer can have multiple active at the same time starting at 4th level. So with this, a puppeteer can have two different performances running at the same time way before a normal bard gets access to those funky "I'll maintain your performance for you" spells (like exquisite accompaniment or shadowbard).
I am now considering turning String Musician into another mastery (Maestro mastery anyone?)
With one manipulation to do beneficial bardic performance effects, another for a sound burst and sonic damage effects and another for fascinating/dirge of doom bardic performance effects.
With the added special bonus while using string instruments with any of the above.
Here is the preliminary maestro mastery. Thoughts?
Maestro Mastery
The puppeteer is a teacher of music, and a master conductor. The target of the puppeteers maestro mastery manipulations starts to perform (orate, sing, dance or drum a beat). This creates a bardic performance based on the manipulation used out to 20 feet which affects all those that can see and hear the manipulation target. This performance does not hinder the manipulation target in any way other than described in the performance itself. The puppeteer may always choose whether or not the target of the manipulation is affected by the effects of any maestro mastery manipulation. These performances otherwise function as bardic performances of a bard equal to the puppeteers level - 2 (minimum 1).
String Orchestra: This manipulation creates an Inspire Courage bardic performance centered on the manipulation target. Improved: Alternatively, this may function as the Inspire Competence bardic performance instead with the performance affecting only the manipulation target. Greater: Alternatively, this may function as the Inspire Greatness bardic performance instead.
Cacophony of Strings: This performance causes a continuous sussurus in the affected area. Perception checks that relying on hearing take a -5 penalty and any creature that relies on hearing for its vision have a 20% miss chance on their attacks. Additionally, as a free action, the puppeteer may end this manipulation, as a free action, with a powerful thunderclap. This functions as sound burst centered on the manipulation target with that spells normal area of effect. Improved: This manipulation may additionally create a blanket of white noise, drowning out any other sounds in the area. This functions as silence centered on the manipulation target. This does not affect the other abilities of this manipulation. Greater: All allies that are affected by this performance have their attacks deal an extra 1d6 sonic damage.
Soothing Strings: This manipulation functions as the Fascinate bardic performance centered on the manipulation target. Improved: This manipulation additionally functions as the Suggestion bardic performance, targeting any creature already fascinated by this performance, except it does not require additional actions beyond maintaining the manipulation to activate. The same creature cannot be targeted by the suggestion effect again for 24 hours. Greater: Alternatively the puppeteer can choose to have this manipulation function as the Soothing Performance bardic performance instead, except after 4 rounds the strings are severed.
Damn this looks damn cool... I'll probably never get to play it but it reminds me of some cool things from childhood.
Ask your GM very nicely. :)
I have playtested this and it is on par power-wise with other classes. Though definitely not a frontline fighter it can hold its own in a fight, and have decent skills/abilities to be useful out of a fight as well.