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Nice; I've played some D&D games set in the Old World (with a detour through Lustria) so this is welcome.
You can have a fave for your first post!
The changes you've made seem to address this somewhat.
I see you changed the racial defences from giants to elves, to honour the long-standing War of The Beard. Good, knack the poncy treehuggers.
Resistant has been downplayed, to mind-affecting effects, instead of all spells - long overdue.
And the stat bonus moves from Wis to Int. Seems to fit a race of engineers, who are too quick to anger, and nurse grudges for generations.
Moving the Wis bonus to Int would reduce some of the auto-pass saves they currently enjoy, so that may bring things back to normal. Being super-good at mundane crafting isn't going to break the game as much as 'can't fail a will save'.
Mountaineer seems to replace Stability; seems powerful, but that may just be me, knowing the kind of players I have, I predict they'll simply declare themselves to always be hugging a wall, therefore 'climbing'. Could it be an alternate racial trait, or an acquired trait or feat?
1st Edition D&D Dwarves used to have the disadvantage of having magic items sometimes refuse to work. Given they're a race that gets so many anti-magic defensive traits, that seems fitting.
In Warhammer 1-3, they used to make rotten wizards, getting only half the magic points, and in Warhammer 4 onwards, they effectively have no wizards at all.
Would some kind of drawback be appropriate, to offset the benefits of Resistant? If it were part of the same text, they can't trade or buy off the disadvantage, without losing the associated benefit.
Want to see what you bring for the rest.
The problem with giving points back to the race when you penalize certain classes (in this case arcane casters) is that by doing this you are giving a boost to the martials and divines who took this race and a big drop to arcanes. Guess what, no one will play a dwarven arcane and the rest got free bonuses out of it.
But that's the Old World. Warhammer Orcs are nigh unplayable killing machines. Even their mages rely on sheer luck rather than skill and intelligence. Besides that, every race besides the core four are unplayable for RP reasons. Unlike other fantasy settings where a heroic outcast of an evil race may be given a chance, any greenskin, mutant, beastman or skaven that shows up in an Old World village is going to get run off or killed immediately. We're talking justly superstitious common folk who leave their babies in the woods to die if the kid has a couple weird bumps. There'd be no time to convince the "good" people of your noble intentions before the pitchforks come out.
If you're looking for a broader spectrum of playable races, the Warhammer universe probably isn't the place to go. Unless you're playing a Chaos campaign, then mutants, beastmen and skaven would be possible.
On the other hand, your WH dwarf looks really solid. I'd like to see your translations of the Elves and Halflings.
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The problem with giving points back to the race when you penalize certain classes (in this case arcane casters) is that by doing this you are giving a boost to the martials and divines who took this race and a big drop to arcanes. Guess what, no one will play a dwarven arcane and the rest got free bonuses out of it.
That is true; any disadvantage needs to be one that affects all classes across the board, maybe not 100% equally, but enough to sting you whatever you play.
The 1st Edition disadvantage was that any magic item that wasn't a weapon or armor, would fail to work 20% of the time, with no way I'm aware to reduce that.
A lot of groups used to forget it, or rule it away, but it was the flipside of being made of antimagic.
That was a large disadvantage to any class, and really encouraged people to play up the 'suspicious dwarf, distrustful of unreliable, treachorous supernatural solutions'. No point making plans that rely on getting deep in enemy territory then drinking a potion, because the whole job could go belly-up. Item fails to work? Obviously made by dirty elves!
"If it ain't made by Dwarves, it's CRAP!"
Based on the WFRP 2nd Ed book, I'd go with something like this for Halflings:
Type: Humanoid
Subtype: Halfling
Size: Small (+1 size bonus to AC, +1 size bonus on attack rolls, –1 penalty on combat maneuver checks and to CMD, and +4 size bonus on Stealth checks)
Ability Score Modifier: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Str
Base Speed: 30'
Language: Standard (Common & Halfling)
Defensive Racial Traits: +2 vs. mind-affecting and polymorph effects
Senses: Low light vision and keen senses (+2 Perception)
Feat & skill: +2 bonus of Profession (farmer) and Craft (food).
+2 bonus to Acrobatics
+2 bonus to Diplomacy
Offense: Standard halfling weapon familiarity.
+1 bonus on attack rolls with slings, may use medium sized slings with no penalty.
Not sure how this all stacks up with the ARG ranking system, but that's my best shot.
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Much of the halfling lore is a parody of other games treatment of them, and how they are portrayed in LotR, as liking their food, and being generally out to avoid trouble, but roused to fury if anyone threatens the pie stall.
The halflings in WH live in The Moot, or Mootland, which is a protected enclave within the southeastern Empire. They have one vote in the Electoral College, which is more than any other non-human race.
These concessions date back to the reign of Ludwig The Fat, for services to Imperial cuisine, and possibly to piss off the Count whose lands got confiscated for the purpose.
There are third-party army books out there for many of the minor races, written for the current edition, which draw on articles written elsewhere into one place. I'll see about posting a link.
Warhammer halflings are also supposed to be the race most resistant to Warpstone in the setting, so HIGH magic resistance is indeed appropriate.
It's Profession (Cook), not Craft (food).
I believe Warhammer Halflings have the same movement as humans, so no move penalty.
Warhammer halflings are generally ignored by ogres of the setting, who see them as little funny guys, and will generally eat them last, if at all. That's because ogres are the other major warpstone resistant race in the setting, and share similar origins to the halflings, being made by the Old Ones to stand against Chaos. And both love to eat!
There used to be a conversion table for putting Warhammer stats into D&D 1e, but as with anything else, it was DM finesse.
Space marines 40k introduced Inhuman and Monstrous strength. Things with such doubled (tripled) their strength scores against creatures with a lower Strength level. So a 4 strength Space Marine going up against a 4 Strength human effectively has an 8 Strength, while a 4 str Giant with Monstrous Strength effectively has 12 and can't lose a str roll against a human.
==Aelryinth
Warhammer elves should have high Int and Willpower, but also low Wis. They tend to extremely arrogant and proud of their civilization, and look down on all other races. Despite that, low birthrate means they are dying out, just like the dwarves. Given their stat superiority, you could give them +2 to every stat and not be far off. Elves are Just Better, after all.
They flat out made the best mages in WFRPG, including getting more magic points then other races. They fought as well as dwarves, and had better ballistic skill then humans.
Elves were just better.
==Aelryinth
It's Profession (Cook), not Craft (food).
I chose craft (food) over profession (cook) because I felt that halflings are more interested and adept at the preparation of food, not necessarily the pursuit of making a living off of it, although the craft skill can be used for that purpose as well. Don't presume to correct me without checking to see if I made a mistake in the first place.
Skaven seems about done...all the way down to the Plaguebringer archetype.
It would be cool to see Warlock Engineer as a class.
Beastmen would be a full on conversion.
Preparation of food is a profession.
Craft (food) might be a presentation skill (like a Shrimp platter), or chopping up onions really well, or perhaps carving a turnip into a lamp. All craft skills are about making enduring items out of other items. You'd know how to manipulate food items and turn them into non-food items.
All the service and perishable stuff is under Profession. So, yes, your own words seem to confirm you made an error, Rawhead.
==Aelryinth
Does this more or less show their resistance to warpstone?
Exalted Resistance (3 RP): Prerequisite: Outsider
(native) with ties to Elysium, Heaven, or Nirvana; Benefit:
Members of this race gain spell resistance equal to 6 +
their character level against spells and spell-like abilities
with the evil descriptor, as well as any spells and spelllike
abilities cast by evil outsiders.
I'd change it to: (Warpstone Resistance) You are immune to the effects of exposure to minor to moderate amounts of warpstone, even over long-term periods of time. You gain a +4 bonus to resist the effects of forced major exposure to Warpstone (such as being repeatedly force fed it).
Probably worth 3 at best. It's very situational. It's also not widely known at all. I'd probably make it a 1 point Halfling and Ogre only racial ability.==Aelryinth
Beastmen could be randomized, or you could simply rule that every anthropomorphic race in the game is a result of Chaos mutation and can mix and match as you will. So catfolk, gnolls, bullywugs, ratfolk, kenku, bugbears, centaurs, minotaurs, satyrs, and any other man/beast combos are all just variant beastmen, and all can be found together. The children of any pairing of them could end up any of the other races as they grow and mutate further.
keep in mind that minotaurs are the chosen guardians of Chaos Temples, and usually come with expanded mutations (overlong arms, fire breath, etc etc) in keeping with their 'special status'.
==Aelryinth
All craft skills are about making enduring items out of other items... All the service and perishable stuff is under Profession.
Care to share your source? I'll agree that service is a profession, but I found nothing that says a craft skill's result has to be non-perishable.
A Craft skill is specifically focused on creating something. If nothing is created by the endeavor, it probably falls under the heading of a Profession skill.
The RAW seems to suggest that craft(food) is a perfectly viable craft skill, as something is created by the endeavor.
No, it's not.
Craft (wood) makes other items out of wood. Raw wood becomes chair, clubm, table, lamp, floorboard.
Craft (food) makes...food?
Compare it to any other craft skill. Craft is the art of transforming raw materials into something else.
You aren't changing food into anything else other then more food.
The examples I like to use are Craft (painter) and Profession (painter).
A Crafted painter makes paintings. he makes art. The value of his work is in the object he creates.
A Profession painter covers things in paint. He's like the industrial painter hosing down the tanks, the rail cars, the walls...he's like the guys you call to paint your house. They are good, fast, do their job, and are on to the next.
But they don't create an enduring unique object. They slap paint on stuff professionally.
There's a big difference between the two.
So, Craft (food) you actually have to create an enduring object left behind that's materially different from what you put into it. there's a big difference between an iron bar and a sword. Between food and...food, not so much.
Since you're not making anything new and unique out of food, you're making stylized food, it's a profession skill, not a Craft skill.
here's the quote from the Profession Skill: The most common Profession skills are architect, baker, barrister, brewer, butcher, clerk, cook, courtesan, driver, engineer, farmer, fisherman, gambler, gardener, herbalist, innkeeper, librarian, merchant, midwife, miller, miner, porter, sailor, scribe, shepherd, stable master, soldier, tanner, trapper, and woodcutter.
Baker, Cook and herbalist, all dealing with food in one form or another, are on the list.
The most common Craft skills are alchemy, armor, baskets, books, bows, calligraphy, carpentry, cloth, clothing, glass, jewelry, leather, locks, paintings, pottery, sculptures, ships, shoes, stonemasonry, traps, and weapons.
A Craft skill is specifically focused on creating something. If nothing is created by the endeavor, it probably falls under the heading of a Profession skill.
Nothing to do with cooking on that list.
So, you're talking about the difference between a bookmaker and a scribe who writes in the book. You're the latter, working on what is already supplied to you, the food.
==Aelryinth
So, Craft (food) you actually have to create an enduring object left behind that's materially different from what you put into it. there's a big difference between an iron bar and a sword. Between food and...food, not so much.
Your logic is flawed. If you were just rearranging one pile of raw ingredients into a different pile of raw ingredients, that's not cooking. But by combining the ingredients, applying heat, knives and motion, you get an end result that's as different from the original ingredients as a sword is from an iron bar.
There's no rule that says the results of a craft skill need to be enduring, just that something needs to be created. Additionally, because something was omitted from the list of "most common" crafts does not automatically mean that it is ineligible.
Craft (food) is a skill specifically focused on creating things to eat. Yes, the raw ingredients may be food in their own right, but the end result is far from the same thing as what was put in.
By the way, I've taken this to the rules forum for added input. My question can be found here
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I think there's some doubling up, there, and some that cancel out, when it comes to saves. I can't see how Craven is worth 3RP.
The Warpstone resistance is pretty much a flat resistance to all magic, since in the WH lore, warpstone is a major source of magic, and magic is therefore an unclean force, until it's refined by a careful user, and even then, it's still subject to miscast. So the bonus saves of the PF halfling pretty much cover it, already. It's just no you have a flavor reason for it
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Warpstone isn't evil, per se, but it is a corrupting influence, resulting in mutations, madness, and a lure toward Chaos.
Note how that applies to all magic, though. There isn't the dichotomy present in default D&D/PF, that 'these spells are [evil] and therefore have side-effects, but these spells are [good], so I can burn through them like a kid in a sweetshop'.
All magic is corrupt, even the spells with the [good] descriptor.
Yeah, but WFRP does differentiate between resistance to magic and resistance to chaos. I think a bump to saves vs. "corrupting" effects, maybe mind-affecting and polymorph, would be a fitting adaption to resist chaos.
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The High Elves have learned to process the winds of magic, to make them slightly less dangerous to the user (in WH Battles they excel in dispelling, or they did in the last edition), but they still treat it with respect and a bit of fear.
Dwarven Rune Magic is also a highly ritualised form, that has been passed down from many generations, and deemed safe to use. But in doing so, they have become paralysed by dogma, such that any attempt to innovate, create new forms, or use them for other than their original purpose can get the heretic exiled (a similar fear of innovation also cripples the Engineers Guild).
The High Mage Teclis is the one who persuaded the Empire to set up the Colleges of Magic, based on his theories that if wizards were focussed on one aspect alone, it would reduce the chance of blowing themselves up or turning themselves inside out Prior to that, human wizards were often destroying themselves and everything around them, or becoming possessed by Daemonic entities, regardless of their moral fibre, or if they were attempting to do good or evil.
I think that's a fundamental difference in approach, between WH and traditional heroic fantasy games like D&D, which uphold the idea of white-hatted PCs destined to prevail over black-hatted villains.
WH is a much more grimdark setting, with an apocalyptic metaplot that everyone and everything you love is living on borrowed time, and the best you can do is delay the inevitable slide into madness and death.
Put the Warpstone resistance back in. It's a specific racial trait of Halflings...they aren't affected by Chaos mutation pretty much at all. Warpstone is the main avenue of random chaos mutation in the setting, i.e. halflings don't have kids born as beastmen, or randomly develop warpstone from environmental contagion.
Mutation via use of magic is something else. That's psychic power, not Chaos mutation. They've got no specific resistance to corruption via magic use...but there are few to none Halfling mages in the setting. Probably not a coincidence. And if a Chaos god decides to mutate you out of loving appreciation for what you've become, well, sucks to be you.
You've given them their 30 move back, I think you can take out Acrobatics. They aren't called out as specifically nimble.
Note that using magic is not inherently corrupting, but it provides an avenue for corruption to get to you. Tzeentch watches everyone who uses magic, and if you give him an opening...
Magic resistance in the setting is a willpower roll. I don't remember how Halflings compared with elves and dwarves, who had the highest willpower.
Humans are not CAPABLE of beholding the true force of magic...doing so literally blows out their minds and invites a demon in to feast on their souls and eat their friends and neighbors. Elves and the Slaan can, but are much more magically adept. The Human traditions in magic actually were INVENTED by the elves, so the humans wouldn't keep killing themselves and could actually contribute magically to the fight against Chaos.
So magic itself is not corrupting, but the power of it tends to lead to corruption.
==Aelryinth
So, Craft (food) you actually have to create an enduring object left behind that's materially different from what you put into it. there's a big difference between an iron bar and a sword. Between food and...food, not so much.Your logic is flawed. If you were just rearranging one pile of raw ingredients into a different pile of raw ingredients, that's not cooking. But by combining the ingredients, applying heat, knives and motion, you get an end result that's as different from the original ingredients as a sword is from an iron bar.
There's no rule that says the results of a craft skill need to be enduring, just that something needs to be created. Additionally, because something was omitted from the list of "most common" crafts does not automatically mean that it is ineligible.
Craft (food) is a skill specifically focused on creating things to eat. Yes, the raw ingredients may be food in their own right, but the end result is far from the same thing as what was put in.
By the way, I've taken this to the rules forum for added input. My question can be found here
No, Rawhead, you get food mixed with other food.
A skill focused on processing (note: you are't CREATING) things to eat is by definition a COOK. And it's in the profession list. What does a Cook do? He uses heat, food, water and skill to make raw food into processed food.
C'mon, man, let it go. You're talking about being a cook.
That's it. It's still food, you still eat it. Shrimp is still shrimp.
==Aelryinth
well, if you want all settings, then just use a standard halfling. The only difference is the focus on being cooks, when it really comes down to it, and trading acrobatics out for movement.
I wouldn't even give them the automatic sling bonus. Most halflings aren't master slingers in Warhammer.
What I thought you were gonna do is try a port of some of the Warhammer rules, but use Pathfinder as the underlying engine. Forgive my error.
==Aelryinth
C'mon, man, let it go.
I have. You're not going to convince me, I'm not going to convince you and there's nothing in the RAW that unquestionably supports either of our points (the fact that we were both quoting the same text in an attempt to prove the other wrong shows that).
So, if the OP follows either of our suggestions, it's up to them to decide what they like more.
Rockblood, sorry for derailing your thread.
That's awesome and silly. I was going to start up with WH Halflings can't be wizards based on the title, but as this class s more of a pastry themed alchemist, I don't have any complaints.
Remember though, in Pathfinder, any class can be a character's favored class.
Just give them a blanket resistance to affects that mutate, warp or change their form, regardless of source, and I think you'll be okay. Or, you could just give them a blanket bonus on Fortitude saves to reflect the fact they'll be resistant against anything mucking with their bodies.
Note that if you go back to 1e, halflings had the same resistance as dwarves to poison and the like.
Perhaps something like +3 to Fortitude saves against diseases, poisons, and effects that warp, change, or mutate their bodies.
==Aelryinth
I think the poison resistance works (WH halflings can eat anything), but the halflings are just as susceptable to disease in the Old World. Particularly Stenchfoot Fever (Nausea, shivers, sweating and a foot stank so potent that everyone within 4 yards takes penalties because of it.)
Honestly, I'd start with PF goblins, add the swarming trait and a climb speed and pretty much call it a day for skaven. Getting into the clans will be more complicated.
Clan Moulder (alchemists and monster breeders) +2 craft (alchemy) and Animal Handling, +2 Int
Clan Pestilens (fervent priests of the lord of disease) +4 bonus vs. disease, +2 Wis
Clan Eshin (ninja) Poison use, +2 on saving throws vs. poison, +2 stealth and disable device
Clan Skryre (wizards an war engineers) +2 Int, +2 Knowledge (engineering) or Knowledge (Arcana)
Clan Mors (strongest of the warlords) +2 Str, short sword, long spear and (polearm of your choice) proficiency, Hatred vs. dwarves (+1 to attack).
There are more clans, but those are some of the most common.
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MUTATION TABLE
d100
01-09 - Animalistic Legs (+10 movement speed)
10-18 - Emanciated Appearance (-1 Str)
19-27 - Grossly Fat (+1 Str, Gain the Toughness feat)
28-36 - Horns (Gain a gore attack)
37-45 - Scales (+2 Natural armor)
46-54 - Short Legs (-10 Movement Speed)
55-63 - Snout (Gain the Scent ability)
64-72 - Tail (+2 bonus to Acrobatics and Reflex saves)
73-81 - Tentacle-like Arms (+4 bonus to grapple checks)
82-90 - Thick Fur (+2 Natural armor)
91-00 - Three Eyes (+2 bonus to Perception checks involving vision)
(Please note: all the mutation names and the inspiration for their effects came from the 2nd Edition Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay core rulebook (C) Games Workshop Limited 2005)