Rockblood |
Hmmmm I'm thinking to do something like the oriental campaign setting samurai for the skaven clans. Set out a base line and pick the clan your in to fill the rest out. I'll start with the common ones and add any others I can find when I'm finished with the skaven. Also are the skaven medium size? They didn't seem small in blood bowl and warhammer online. For now I'm thinking they will have 40 ft base speed for sure and maby a bite attack. Don't know about a claw one. Not sure if they would get a bonus to dex I know their very fast dont know about how acrobatic they are. As for type monstrous humanoid or just humanoid? Thank you for the mutation table ^^ do you think the skaven should roll on it? I know they follow a chaos god and they get mutations in blood bowl.
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Rockblood |
I'm sure its both ways seeing how they worship the sixth chaos god and live underground where warpstone is most commonly found. Blood bowl has the skaven team which can have normal chaos mutations and theres a team called the underworld team which is a combination of goblins and skaven infected with warpstone corruption along with a warpstone troll. Again I'm not sure how accurate blood bowl is with the warhammer races.
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
blood bowl is entirely separate from WFRPG, which I'm using as a source, along with the novels (largely Felix and Gottrek, who meet a lot of skaven).
As a backhistory and source, you're better off using the Warhammer army lists and the Warhammer Wikipedia, both of which exist online and will give you a ton of backstory on all the races and the setting.
==Aelryinth
Rockblood |
Oh right i have the 3rd edition.....why didn't i even look in it for monsters XD thank you. Just read the only entry that the book had on skaven and all it had was the empire trying to cover them up and that their intelligent with grey seers worshiping the horned rat chaos god along with spread disease and assassinate officers.
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Rockblood |
Alright this is what I got on the skaven so far. Their monsterous humanoid with the ratfolk subtype. They go 30 ft. base speed which will be going up to 40 went I get to the movement racials and I wasn't sure on stats but I read their easy to kill and not very strong but fast and agile so I went with -2 str -4 con and +2 int with advance dex giving +4 dex. Don't know if their bodies health is that weak or not. As for defensive racials I know I'm going to put in cornered fury and plagueborn. I'm unsure about natural armor. Cats luck is in there to but not sure if their agile enough to count for a reroll on reflex.
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
They also have a substantial wisdom penalty. They infight like nobody's business, care nothing for one another, and blame everyone else for their mistakes. I wouldn't give them an Int bonus, and keep Con at par, not a penalty (they can survive on very little and a lot of diseases). They are indeed supposed to be fast.
So, -2 to str, base Con, +2 Dex, -2 Wis, +10 Speed sounds like a good combo. I'd just make them normal humanoid, not monstrous. They should be based on Ratfolk, after all.
An option might be to take a page from 3.5 and make up some racial levels for them. HD 1-3, just determine what they get, and all the low level NPC skaven fall into those slots before they get class levels. So, rote skaven have 1 hd, clanrats have 2-3 hd. If you want them to be frail, give them a d6 for racial HD to reflect the fact. Its what they did for halflings.
==Aelryinth
Rockblood |
This is what I got done so far.
Warhammer Skaven
Type: Humanoid (0 RP)
Sub-Type: Ratfolk
Size: Medium (0 RP)
Base Speed: Normal Speed (30 ft.) (0 RP)
Ability Score Modifier: Greater Paragon (-2 Str +4 Dex -2 Wis) (2 RP)
Language: Standard (Undercommon and Rat) (Common, Goblin, and Dwarven) (0 RP)
Defensive Racial Traits: Cornered Fury (Whenever a Skaven is reduced to half its hit points or fewer and has no conscious ally within 30 feet, it gains a +2 racial
bonus on melee attack rolls and to Armor Class) (4 RP)
I've desided to keep the traits low because each clan will give them more once they pick one from character creation so I took out plagueborn and will be putting at for the disease clan. Right now I'm picking out feat and skill racial traits and movement racial traits. Fast and Burrow I know are going in the rest I'm not sure about the rest. Stealth bonus is another but my god theres so many traits that give that @.@
Feat and Skill Racial Traits: Camouflage, Cave Dweller, Nimble Faller, Scavenger, Silent Hunter, Sneaky, Stalker, Stonecunning, Underground Sneak, Nimble Attacks,
Quick Reactions
Movement Racial Traits: Climb, Darklands Stalker, Fleet-Footed, Jumper, Sprinter, Swift as Shadows, Burrow, Fast
Yea I loved the monster classes sooo much in 3.5 because it let powerful monsters still be in a group of low levels X3. How ever I don't know if that will work in pathfinder but I remember reading something on paragon race classes somewhere in pathfinder. Maby those could work?
Rockblood |
I might end up converting the warhammer classes once i get the races done but it sounds like most of the classes from the warhammer rpg would end up as npc classes. I would have to read up more on them. As far as I know the closest thing to that would be one of the animal companion classes (probably the rogue or barbarian archtype one) with its profession being rat catching? lol
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Try looking at these.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm
I start out all humans as Humans 1 IMC. Then they can pick up the other two racial levels, or they can grab class levels. Human/1 is basically level 0.
Ditto other classes.
Just do the same for the Skaven/Ratfolk.
==Aelryinth
Rockblood |
Hopefully those rules will work in pathfinder lol I'll try my best making a paragon class for the skaven. For now I want to finish the race up then deside what abilities and stats should go into the paragon class. Ive desided on underground sneak, cave dweller, and skill training stealth and acrobatics for feats and skills and desided on climb and fast for movement. Might take out cave dweller for one of the feat and skill traits or movement traits that lower the penalty for moving while steal not sure yet we will see when I get it done. Now onto offence which I know is going to have claws and bite. Maby hatred to dwarfs and goblins.
Rockblood |
I'm almost done finally. This is what I have so far. Still picking out the last three trait sections.
Warhammer Skaven
Type: Humanoid (0 RP)
Sub-Type: Ratfolk
Size: Medium (0 RP)
Base Speed: Normal Speed (30 ft.) (0 RP)
Ability Score Modifier: Greater Paragon (-2 Str +4 Dex -2 Wis) (2 RP)
Language: Standard (Undercommon and Rat) (Common, Goblin, and Dwarven) (0 RP)
Defensive Racial Traits: Cornered Fury (Whenever a Skaven is reduced to half its hit points or fewer and has no conscious ally within 30 feet, it gains a +2 racial
bonus on melee attack rolls and to Armor Class) (4 RP)
Feat and Skill Racial Traits: Underground Sneak (+2 on Craft (alchemy), Perception, and Stealth checks. The bonus on Stealth checks increases to a +4 bonus while
underground) (5 RP), Silent Hunter (Reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving by 5 and can make Stealth checks while running at a –20 penalty (this number
includes the penalty reduction from this trait)) (2 RP)
Movement Racial Traits: Climb (Gain a climb speed of 20 feet, and gain the +8 racial bonus on Climb checks that a climb speed normally grants) (2 RP), Fast (+10 ft.
to base speed) (1 RP)
Offence Racial Traits: Bite, Hatred, Poison Use, Swarming, Claws
Senses Racial Traits: Darkvision 60 ft., Scent
Weakness Racial Traits: Light Sensitivity
Other Racial Traits: Prehensile Tail, Rodent Empathy
Total RP: 16
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
I don't recall anywhere with a racial bias for alchemy. It's all warpstone. I would say, make Alchemist their racial favored class, if at all (although given their backstabbing and egotistical assessment of their own cleverness, Rogue seems far more appropriate). OR, perhaps, a good FC bonus for Alchemists, letting them create Weird Science weaponry, or purchase extra Sneak Attack damage when attacking as a rogue or with alchemist bombs.
Nor are they particularly good climbers, or sensitive to light...they are ratfolk. Note that the tail, while arguably prehensile, is not very strong, and can't wield weapons or support their own weight. They aren't monkeys.
They don't have a claw attack. They use weapons. Their hands are no better then human hands.
You can clear out a lot of stuff. Skaven aren't that special. I wouldn't use Hatred, either...Skaven are racially paranoid and hate everyone, including one another.
Paranoia (+2 to Perception and Stealth checks, -2 to Sense Motive) seems like a workable compromise. Skaven have NO empathy with others. Note that a bonus to those two skills is VERY strong.
==Aelryinth
Rockblood |
And here is the full skaven. Will probably be tweaking it some more if the need arises but for now I think it looks good. Also i had light sensitivity on there because they live underground and hardly ever go above ground during the day unless they are feeling extra confident that they can win. So I took out both dark sight and the weakness and put in minesight instead. Was wanting to go with the pair mainly because it was one less RP then minesight lol.
Warhammer Skaven
Type: Humanoid (0 RP)
Sub-Type: Ratfolk
Size: Medium (0 RP)
Base Speed: Normal Speed (30 ft.) (0 RP)
Ability Score Modifier: Greater Paragon (-2 Str +4 Dex -2 Wis) (2 RP)
Language: Standard (Undercommon and Rat) (Common, Goblin, and Dwarven) (0 RP)
Defensive Racial Traits: Cornered Fury (Whenever a Skaven is reduced to half its hit points or fewer and has no conscious ally within 30 feet, it gains a +2 racial
bonus on melee attack rolls and to Armor Class) (4 RP)
Feat and Skill Racial Traits: Silent Hunter (Reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving by 5 and can make Stealth checks while running at a –20 penalty (this
number includes the penalty reduction from this trait)) (2 RP), Paranoia (+2 to Perception and Stealth checks, -2 to Sense Motive) (2 RP)
Movement Racial Traits: Fast (+10 ft. to base speed) (1 RP)
Offence Racial Traits: Bite (Gain a natural bite attack, dealing damage equivalent to that of a creature two size categories lower than normal for their size
(1d2 for Small races, 1d3 for Medium, etc.). The bite is a primary attack, or a secondary attack if wielding manufactured weapons.) (1 RP) Poison Use (Never risk
accidental poisoning when applying poison it to weapons) (1 RP), Swarming (Skaven are used to living and fighting communally with other members of their race. Up to
two members of this race can share the same square at the same time. If two members of this race that are occupying the same square attack the same foe, they are
considered to be flanking that foe as if they were in two opposite squares) (2 RP)
Senses Racial Traits: Minesight (Darkvision 90 feet; however, they are automatically dazzled in bright light and take a –2 penalty on saving throws against effects
with the light descriptor) (2 RP), Scent (4 RP)
Total RP: 20
Snorter |
Well I kind of want these races to be able to work in all settings not just a warhammer one and warpstone is only in warhammer so that trait would be useless anywhere else. its either corruption resistance or the spell resistance against evil spell casting. I dont think there are many chaotic spells to warrant a chaotic spell resistance.
I think this why some us seem to be talking past each other, or have different suggestions.
There's a big difference between wanting to use the WH races in other settings, and wanting to run a PF campaign in the WH setting.That's because much of the racial history, and resulting ability focus, depends heavily on the assumptions built into the setting. Remove the races from that setting and history, and their abilities make less sense.
E.g. Halflings have the resistances they do, because they're a desperate lab experiment, by supergenius Space Frogs, who needed a race resistant to Chaos. They needed resistance to Chaos, because of the omnipresent worldwide mutating pollution, this pollution is spreading from holes in the spacetime vortex at the poles, these holes in the spacetime vortex are due to failed transport warpgates, built by the supergenius Space Frogs...
Take the race out of that environment, and they become just another bunch of Tolkien hobbits, the same as exists in 99% of every D&D/PF games. Same with dwarves, elves, goblins, orcs, etc. At which point, why bother?
Snorter |
There was a conversion of the Skaven to D&D 3.0/3.5, in the Scarred Lands setting, by Sword and Sorcery Studios (a White Wolf D&D imprint).
This pretty much replicated all the WH troops (clanrats, gutter runners, poison globadiers, stormvermin, etc) as separate statblocks, but there may be some racial traits common to all, that could be mined?
Rockblood |
More options as I've said? o.o Yes taking them out of their setting makes their abilities make less since that is why I'm trying to find something that more or less matches it like the warpstone resistance i decided to go with poison because warpstone kind of has this drug like effect to me.
Oh there is? Sweet I'll need to find that and read through it thank you.
Snorter |
Okay, I don't have the Creature Collections in pdf, so it'll have to wait till I go through my D&D bookshelf.
Meanwhile, THIS page is for the fan-made Warhammer content.
Most of the army books here are for races and cultures that officially existed in canon, but have either never had their own army book, been semi-officially dropped, or never got updated for the current edition.
As such, some of the material is all new, some has been collated from other sources into one place.
Rockblood |
No need to look for the book now I found the one that had the ratmen in it thank you for letting me know about these books. Here is the new skaven.
Warhammer Skaven
Type: Monstrous Humanoid (3 RP)
Sub-Type: Ratfolk
Size: Medium (0 RP)
Base Speed: Normal Speed (30 ft.) (0 RP)
Ability Score Modifier: Greater Paragon (-2 Str +4 Dex -2 Wis) (2 RP)
Language: Standard (Undercommon and Rat) (Common, Goblin, and Dwarven) (0 RP)
Defensive Racial Traits: Cornered Fury (Whenever a Skaven is reduced to half its hit points or fewer and has no conscious ally within 30 feet, it gains a +2 racial
bonus on melee attack rolls and to Armor Class) (4 RP), Natural Armor +1 (2 RP)
Feat and Skill Racial Traits: Skill Bonus (Stealth) (+2 to Stealth) (2 RP), Skill Bonus (Acrobatics) (+2 to Acrobatics) (2 RP)
Movement Racial Traits: Fast (+10 ft. to base speed) (1 RP)
Offence Racial Traits: Bite (Gain a natural bite attack, dealing damage equivalent to that of a creature two size categories lower than normal for their size
(1d2 for Small races, 1d3 for Medium, etc.). The bite is a primary attack, or a secondary attack if wielding manufactured weapons.) (1 RP) Poison Use (Never risk
accidental poisoning when applying poison it to weapons) (1 RP), Swarming (Skaven are used to living and fighting communally with other members of their race. Up to
two members of this race can share the same square at the same time. If two members of this race that are occupying the same square attack the same foe, they are
considered to be flanking that foe as if they were in two opposite squares) (2 RP), Claws (Gain two claw attacks. These are primary natural attacks. The damage is
based on the creature’s size) (2 RP)
Senses Racial Traits: Darkvision 60 ft., Scent (4 RP)
Weakness Racial Traits: Skill Weakness (Sense Motive) (-2 to Sense Motive) (-2 RP), Light Blindness (Abrupt exposure to bright light blinds Skaven for 1 round; on
subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area) (-2 RP)
Total RP: 22
Changed the type back to monstrous humanoid because while they are like the ratfolk they have a more feral appearance and act more feral then the ratfolk. Changed the skill bonus to perception to acrobatics because I'm thinking the tail helps with balance. Put claws back in because most of the drawings I've seen of them has them with some pretty deadly looking claws and I may take out bite not sure yet. I put light blindness in because from what i read they live all their life underground and only come out at night. They only come out during the day when their feeling overconfident.
Rockblood |
Ok I'm stuck on how to put in the skaven clan variations without raising the rp any higher. A monster class wouldn't work less I remade the whole thing and took time to find a way to convert the 3.5 monster class making to pathfinder since they got rid of LAs. Paragon class might of worked but I'm not sure if it would work in pathfinder even more so that there are racial archtypes that pretty much replaced the paragon classes but that would be a lot of archtypes I would need to make on my own with how many main clans there are. Even worse I'm bad at making anything without a step by step process thing to help guide me.
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Rockblood |
Ok switched back to humanoid but kept the claws and got rid of the bite. What I'm thinking is what would a skaven do if they were unarmed and pinned? With those claws I believe they would be slashing the persons face off not throwing unarmed punches at them. They prefer to use weapons over their claws but they don't out right lose the claws just because they picked up a sword.
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
I don't remember all the clans, but...
Pestilens: you are an endemic carrier of a disease. You show all the effects and symptoms, and can spread it with your bite, but you take no penalties from the disease itself. You gain a +2 trait bonus on Heal checks to create and disperse diseases.
The standard is Filth Fever. Infection DC is standard by disease.
Skyre: Your favored class is alchemist. Your alchemical bombs deal an additional die of damage. You gain a +2 trait bonus on Spellcraft checks to create Weird Science magic items.
Moulder: Your favored class is alchemist. Your mutagens may be used by other Skaven of your clan. You gain a +2 trait bonus on Heal checks made to breed/create monstrous creatures.
Eshin: Your favored class is ranger. You use the assassin class spell list instead of the ranger.
(I pick ranger because Eshin is assassins, but also the best fighters of the clan, and usually have favored enemies).
Alternately, you are the only Skaven who can become Slayers.
Albino Rat: Your favored class is either wizard or cleric. You have an additional -2 to your strength score, but no penalty to Wisdom. You have a +2 trait bonus on charisma checks with all other Skaven.
Warrior of Mors: Your favored class is fighter. You are used to wearing armor, and are considered to have 2 pts higher strength for purposes of encumbrance when wearing armor. You have at least Medium Armor Proficiency.
Stormvermin: Your black fur presages you as a great warrior of the clans. Your favored class is barbarian (and only Stormvermin may be Skaven barbarians). Your Str bonus is normal, but you have an Int penalty of -2.
etc
=+Aelryinth
Snorter |
Yup, the clans would probably be best represented by class choices and alternate favored class options. The major clans (the ones mentioned above) are famous for their speciality troops, but still have a large contingent of normal warriors as well, so some of the poison, disease, mad science bonuses could maybe be turned into class options, like the Moulder Mutagens being unlocked via an Improved Infusion discovery? That way, they affect the individuals who need them, while their bodyguards aren't stuck with abilities they can't use?
Something that's pushing up the Race Point cost is the small abilities that don't scale up as they level. I think you're trying to cover too many bases with the core race modifiers, which they may never develop.
Eg, any Skaven in Clan Eshin, Moulder or Skryre would probably be taking levels in Rogue, Assassin, or Alchemist anyway, and the basic Poison Use would come naturally from there.
Rockblood |
Alright first clan I'm starting with is Clan Eshin. From what I read on them they excel at information gathering, assassination, and exotic weaponry. I'm thinking rogues with a few ranger abilities maby. The only ranged weapons I read of them using were shurikins and poison blow darts.
Should I get rid of poison use though? Because I read that all skaven knew the basics of poison and I didn't know what to put down to show that. Maby a bonus to survival or craft alchemy?
Snorter |
Thing is, if you give Poison Use to all Skaven, then when they go into a class that excels in poison use, it's as if they lost a feat. Unless they are able to swap it out. Which is really unintuitive.
There's a similar situation to sorcerer bloodlines, which don't work well if you're actually of that bloodline (eg a lich who had undead bloodline, gains very little). It's a double-dip that doesn't stack or synergise with itself.
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
know basics of poison and use poison are two different things.
One can be someone who realizes rat poison is a thing and knows how to use it.
It can also means someone with knowledge of alchemy, herbalism, or the heal skill.
It can also mean someone with the poison use skill.
Simply interpret it as "All skaven enjoy using poison on their enemies when they can use it" and you're fine.
As for rank and file troops of the great houses - the average clanrat isn't going to have the traits of the elite troops. They are just warriors and can make so with the traits of any other skaven, there's really no difference between them.
The above Traits were basically for characters with PC class levels, which most clanrats won't have.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
ON further thought, I'd change the racial ability of swarming to a Trait that defines a Clanrat.
Stormvermin and Gray Seers, alchemists and assassins do not 'swarm'. That's for the lesser ranks of the Skaven.
I suggest moving the swarming trait to an elective racial trait of the lower order Skaven of all clans. Clanrats are all basically mooks and the same, regardless of clan.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
IF they have survival, that basically takes care of the ability all skaven should have. MAYBE swim, because all rats can swim.
They should be a 10-15 BP race at best. Skaven are really not much better then goblins at the individual level. They get their power from their numbers.
I wouldn't make them smart or educated enough for a knowledge skill, and sleight of hand is a skill of professional pickpockets, which they also aren't. They're a chittering horde of paranoid, backstabbing rats, on average, because they are too weak to fight to your face.
Don't worry about making them strong. You should actually be about making them weak.
==Aelryinth
Rockblood |
Alright I have cut the more costly traits out. Heres the updated Skaven.
Warhammer Skaven
Type: Humanoid (0 RP)
Sub-Type: Ratfolk
Size: Medium (0 RP)
Base Speed: Normal Speed (30 ft.) (0 RP)
Ability Score Modifier: Greater Paragon (-2 Str +4 Dex -2 Wis) (2 RP)
Language: Standard (Undercommon and Rat) (Common, Goblin, and Dwarven) (0 RP)
Defensive Racial Traits: Natural Armor +1 (2 RP)
Feat and Skill Racial Traits: Skill Bonus (Escape Artist) (+2 on Escape Artist) (2 RP), Skill Bonus (Perception) (+2 on Perception) (2 RP), Skill Training (Survival
and Swim are Class Skills) (1 RP)
Movement Racial Traits: Fast (+10 ft. to base speed) (1 RP)
Offence Racial Traits: Bite (gain a natural bite attack, dealing 1d4 points of damage. The bite is a primary attack, or a secondary attack if the creature is
wielding manufactured weapons) (2 RP)
Senses Racial Traits: Darkvision 60 ft. (2 RP)
Weakness Racial Traits: Skill Weakness (Sense Motive) (-2 to Sense Motive) (-2 RP), Light Blindness (Abrupt exposure to bright light blinds Skaven for 1 round; on
subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area) (-2 RP)
Total RP: 10
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Rockblood |
Oops forgot to lower that. It can go up one size at the cost of 1 more RP so thats going to be lowered.
Warhammer Skaven
Type: Humanoid (0 RP)
Sub-Type: Ratfolk
Size: Medium (0 RP)
Base Speed: Normal Speed (30 ft.) (0 RP)
Ability Score Modifier: Greater Paragon (-2 Str +4 Dex -2 Wis) (2 RP)
Language: Standard (Undercommon and Rat) (Common, Goblin, and Dwarven) (0 RP)
Defensive Racial Traits: Natural Armor +1 (2 RP)
Feat and Skill Racial Traits: Skill Bonus (Escape Artist) (+2 on Escape Artist) (2 RP), Skill Bonus (Perception) (+2 on Perception) (2 RP), Skill Training (Survival
and Swim are Class Skills) (1 RP)
Movement Racial Traits: Fast (+10 ft. to base speed) (1 RP)
Offence Racial Traits: Bite (gain a natural bite attack, dealing 1d3 points of damage. The bite is a primary attack, or a secondary attack if the creature is
wielding manufactured weapons) (1 RP)
Senses Racial Traits: Darkvision 60 ft. (2 RP), Scent (4 RP)
Weakness Racial Traits: Skill Weakness (Sense Motive) (-2 to Sense Motive) (-2 RP), Light Blindness (Abrupt exposure to bright light blinds Skaven for 1 round; on
subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area) (-2 RP)
Total RP: 13