Cover, Prone, and Being Dead


Rules Questions

Contributor

A weird situation came up several times in my PFS game last week were our opponents got cover for relatively strange circumstances. In the first occurrence, our opponents were getting cover against ranged attacks from the attack passing through a prone creature. To me, this seems ridiculous; how are you providing any enemy with cover while you're laying flat on your back or side? Especially considering the cover rules define cover as being generating by "any object that's at least half your size or bigger." Even if I was a halfling, a human lying on the ground isn't going to give my enemies cover against my attack. Can anyone find any rule that would support this?

Second, we had someone tell us that dead bodies (I believe they were dead kobolds) provide cover because they were creatures in life. This seems even more far-fetched to me, but again, I can't find any rules supporting or discrediting this. Anyone got anything for this?

Grand Lodge

The relevant cover rules are thus:

Quote:
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).

Prone doesn't change this, so yes, a prone creature still grants cover (although a GM is within their ability to say that it's partial cover only).

Silver Crusade

Depending on the ranges involved, this might also apply:

Core Combat Rules, under Cover wrote:


Low Obstacles and Cover

A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he's closer to the obstacle than his target.

I often quote this rule to point out how a reach weapon wielder under the influence of Enlarge Person can sometimes take AoOs over the head of an adjacent ally.


Relevant:

Quote:

Partial Cover

If a creature has cover, but more than half the creature is visible, its cover bonus is reduced to a +2 to AC and a +1 bonus on Reflex saving throws. This partial cover is subject to the GM's discretion.

I have a hard time seeing prone/dead guys providing partial cover to a standing guy, but the rules give the GM discretion to grant that if he thinks it should - maybe if the dead guy was really big?


I have a question in regard to this. Let's say that Creature A tries to move to attack a reach weapon wielder Trippy with combat reflexes, and trigger the AOO at the 10’ mark, 2 squares away from it’s target and is promptly tripped prone by Trippy.

Then let's say creature B goes through the allied prone creature A square, does creature B gets cover from the AOO reach weapon still threatening that square?

My take on it is that B is closer to that low obstacle and thus gets cover against Trippy. As such B will not trigger the AOO from Trippy since you cannot use an AOO against a target having relative cover from you. Thus B having used it’s ally as cover, close the gap and hit Trippy with a well-deserved blow. Is that right?


Strictly by RAW that is correct.

But it's often silly.

Assuming both Creature A and Creature B are the same size, and they're both humans/humanoids, it makes no sense. The prone Human A, at best, gives cover to Human B's feet and ankles. No more. It might make it harder for Trippy to trip since he likes attacking feet and ankles, but it should make it harder to just generally wallop Human B as he provokes.

But...

What if Creature A and Creature B were worms? Aside from the question of how you trip a worm, if Worm A is prone (perhaps sleeping) and Worm B moves through the square, should Worm B get cover? Definitely.

If Creature A and Creature B are about as wide as they are tall, or even half as wide as they are tall, then this rule makes reasonable sense. It primarily fails only with vertical creatures who are much taller standing than they are prone.

Edit: Hmmmm, I guess I had forgotten about this:

Jeff Merola wrote:

From the combat rules:

Quote:
You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn't provide you with cover.

But that makes it even a little more wonky. As you prepare to move toward that large enemy with the trip polearm, you can move through an empty square, or through a square with a prone enemy, or through a square with a prone ally:

Ally: Pssst! Hey, come through my square because we're buddies and all. I won't actually help you. In fact, you get no benefit at all. I think the best thing I can do for you, as a friend, is let you get smacked and learn from it. You know, that which does not kill you...
Enemy: No, come through my square. I've already burned my AoO so I can't hurt you or stop you. In fact, I'll even get in the way and try to shield you from my big friend over there. That guy's a jerk, it would do him good to miss once in a while, so let me help you out since you and I are such good fr-, er, uh, enemies.
Empty space: Yeah, I can't talk to you since I'm just a terrain feature, but if I could speak (Hey it's a free action and there are no RAW rules that say I can't!) then I'd tell you to go through the enemy's space, you need all the help you can get.

Grand Lodge

Kletus Bob wrote:

I have a question in regard to this. Let's say that Creature A tries to move to attack a reach weapon wielder Trippy with combat reflexes, and trigger the AOO at the 10’ mark, 2 squares away from it’s target and is promptly tripped prone by Trippy.

Then let's say creature B goes through the allied prone creature A square, does creature B gets cover from the AOO reach weapon still threatening that square?

My take on it is that B is closer to that low obstacle and thus gets cover against Trippy. As such B will not trigger the AOO from Trippy since you cannot use an AOO against a target having relative cover from you. Thus B having used it’s ally as cover, close the gap and hit Trippy with a well-deserved blow. Is that right?

From the combat rules:

Quote:
You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn't provide you with cover.


Jeff Merola wrote:

From the combat rules:

Quote:
You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn't provide you with cover.

Ok, guess it will require tandem work to get past trippy, creature A will have to stop at 10' at an angle to provide enough cover for B to close in without triggering the reach AOO. ( If I understood correctly that reach attack use ranged attack rules to determine cover, thus if Trippy can't see all 4 corner of B square due to A positioning, there is no aoo )

Worst case, I guess B could bullrush the prone A and move with it. A would still provide cover as B stays in the square behind?

Also, let's say worst case that both creatures get tripped in the same square? What happens? Also, Would a charge prevent the AOO, the table seems to imply charges don't trigger aoo?

Thanks for the info by the way.

Grand Lodge

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Kletus Bob wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:

From the combat rules:

Quote:
You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn't provide you with cover.
Ok, guess it will require tandem work to get past trippy, creature A will have to stop at 10' at an angle to provide enough cover for B to close in without triggering the reach AOO. ( If I understood correctly that reach attack use ranged attack rules to determine cover, thus if Trippy can't see all 4 corner of B square due to A positioning, there is no aoo )

Reach weapons use ranged for cover, yes. Those rules are actually less restrictive than normal melee rules (ranged picks one corner of the attacker's square and draws to all four corners of the target's square, while melee draws from all four corners of the attacker's square to all four corners of the target's square). But yes, I believe that would work.

Kletus Bob wrote:
Worst case, I guess B could bullrush the prone A and move with it. A would still provide cover as B stays in the square behind?

I suppose they would.

Kletus Bob wrote:

Also, let's say worst case that both creatures get tripped in the same square? What happens? Also, Would a charge prevent the AOO, the table seems to imply charges don't trigger aoo?

Thanks for the info by the way.

The second creature would be returned to the most recent legal square it could stop in and be tripped. And charging itself doesn't provoke, but any movement you take because of that charge provokes as normal.


Kletus Bob wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:

From the combat rules:

Quote:
You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn't provide you with cover.

Ok, guess it will require tandem work to get past trippy, creature A will have to stop at 10' at an angle to provide enough cover for B to close in without triggering the reach AOO. ( If I understood correctly that reach attack use ranged attack rules to determine cover, thus if Trippy can't see all 4 corner of B square due to A positioning, there is no aoo )

Worst case, I guess B could bullrush the prone A and move with it. A would still provide cover as B stays in the square behind?

This only works if Creature A and Creature B are not friends. See Jeff Merola's quote.

I'll just ignore the diagonal reach cheese and the bullrush my ally Limburger cheese.

Kletus Bob wrote:
Also, let's say worst case that both creatures get tripped in the same square? What happens? Also, Would a charge prevent the AOO, the table seems to imply charges don't trigger aoo?

If they both get tripped in the same square, then there they are. Prone. Probably the soft-cover rule applies (they're not moving through so the rule Jeff Merola quoted is no longer applicable). You might also apply squeezing rules, but that's an assumption.

No, charging does not prevent the AoO. Notice the footnote at the bottom of that same chart:

"1 Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity."

So the action, Charge, does not provoke, but the squares you move through can still provoke normally.


Thanks Jeff, really top notch explanations.

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