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Hey all,
I've been toying with building a pacifist cleric that mainly uses his actions to cast buffs, summon monsters, and keep people alive. It may not be as effective as a "reach cleric" but regardless it has caught my attention as being a design to maximize others' potential while not directly hurting your enemy via yourself. (Whether it's due to not wanting to get "blood on your hands" or being too sophisticated, or etc.)
So here is what I have in mind for the build at the moment. But I feel there's some aspects missing and I would like some opinions on what other people would expect to find in a pacifist cleric build.
Class – Evangelist Cleric
Race – Human
Alignment – Chaotic Good
Traits -
* Mediator - +1 trait bonus on Diplomacy checks. In addition, you receive a +1 trait bonus to the DC of any charm or compulsion effect that does not provide ongoing control and results in peaceful acts, such as calm emotions, sleep, or a suggestion to lay down arms.
* Eyes and Ears of the City - +1 trait bonus on Perception checks. Perception is a class skill.
Domain - Suggestions?
Stats -
Str: 7
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 18 (+2 racial added)
Cha: 14
1) Evangelist 1: Bab +0, Lingering Performance (lvl 1), Peacemaker (human)
2) Evangelist 2: Bab +1,
3) Evangelist 3: Bab +2, FREE (lvl 3)
4) Evangelist 4: Bab +3, +1 Wis
5) Evangelist 5: Bab +3, Heighten Spell, for Sanctuary (5)
6) Evangelist 6: Bab +4,
7) Evangelist 7: Bab +5, Sacred Summons (lvl 7)
8) Evangelist 8: Bab +6/+1, +1 Wis
9) Evangelist 9: Bab +6/+1, FREE (lvl 9), +1hp
10) Evangelist 10: Bab +7/+2, +1hp
11) Evangelist 11: Bab +8/+3, Divine Interference (lvl 11), +1hp
I think Heighten Spell with Sanctuary could work as an effective barrier along with an Extend metamagic rod. Having a 21+ Will DC to hit the Cleric should keep the Cleric safe to focus on the party more. I've thought of Spell Focus: Abjuration, Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration, and Varisian Tattoo: Abjuration to increase Sanctuary DC's to 24 (or higher if Heightening Sanctuary past a 3rd level spell). You can see how using reach tactics would be counter productive in this setup though as attacking would dispell Sanctuary, but it seems that focusing on Sanctuary some would provide better consistent defense than almost any other option.
I'm also curious on the different domain options. Scaleykind seems interesting to provide access to Large Constrictor AC to attack while you buff it and the party with Performance and domain spells like Magic Fang and Animal Growth. What domains do you think work best for a build like this?
Please feel free to throw out suggestions and thoughts. I'd like to get some build ideas circulating here, but would like to have suggestions help keep the Pacifist/Buffer mindset intact and not steer towards the melee or offensive caster types we typically see on the forums. Thanks.
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I'd say the Affable Trait and high Diplomacy and Sense Motive.
There are also a few Feats and Traits out there that help in allowing you to deal Nonlethal Damage much easier, which I think would be mandatory.
A 1 or 2 level dip in Monk might also help, getting an AC bump (with a bit of mobility for no armor), you can use your fists for Nonlethal as needed, and Evasion.
It really depend I guess on what you mean. Pacifist, as in "I don't want to kill" or "I don't want to fight" or do you mean a Buffer Cleric?
In my opinion, Buffer Clerics tend to loose their steam at mid levels, when healing just doesn't keep up and other characters start getting their own permanent buffs via items. They are nice to have around, but as an extra. They are too reactive. But that also depends on your group.
Summon Good Monster would be a good extra Feat to consider, as might some of the newer Familiar Feats, which could allow you to stay back and send your pet in for long distance healing (3 Feat investment). But again, it sort of depends on what exactly you mean and want for a Pacifist.
I'd actually suggest against Sanctuary. It's far too inconsistent, and in my opinion, sort of trap spell. On the other hand, Shield Other should be a high priority, just make sure that whoever you are using it on doesn't go too far, or the spell stops.
Burst of Radiance and also Sound Burst are two good spells as well, though both are also a bit blasty. But the damage is not the key part as much as the short duration Stun or Blind.
Command is another good one, especially if you can coordinate with the party to maximize it's use.
As for Domains, (and I can't remember if the Archetype limits your options or not), but Charm, Community, Defense (Milani), Glory/Heroism Healing/Restoration, Liberation, Travel, and Trickery are all worth looking at.
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It isn't a cleric, but a Life Oracle might be the right up your alley.
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There is a cleric archetype that can only take the healing domain, and cannot use their channel to harm undead.
Now are you going for
I would say somewhere in the middle of both of those. The type of Pacifism I'm discussing is more like a high class noble that disdains resorting to violence and if it comes down to it gets others to fight for him (his teammates, an animal companion, or summon monsters).
Creating a character that doesn't directly punch or cast blasty spells at his enemies but still indirectly removes threats seems like an interesting and maybe difficult build as it's not how most people think when making a character. The character should also be well rounded to stop combats from even happening (Calm Emotions spell or other spells that prevent fights from breaking out. Peacemaker feat and other feats that boost the Cleric's ability to persuade reasonable enemies from fighting.)
So hopefully me defining the type of Pacifism that I'm referring to may help others here to give some additional suggestions and flesh out a better build concept. :)
I'm playing a pacifist life oracle currently, a half-elf using the elven FCB for super-channeling.
(My GM is letting me use the Fast Learner feat to get a human FCB as well every level, but that might not fly in PFS.)
Here's the build:
Channel Oracle
Half-Elf
strength 8, dexterity 12, constitution 12, intelligence 14, wisdom 10, charisma 19
traits: Mediator, Elven Serenity
curse: Wrecker
gear: Headband of Alluring Charisma +6, Quick Runner’s Mnemonic Vestment (custom), Mitre of the Hierophant, Necklace of Positive Channeling (custom), Handy Haversack, Authoritative Vestments
1: Fast Learner, Skill Focus (sense motive), Channel
2:
3: Clarifying Channel, Spirit Boost
4:
5: Quick Channel
6:
7: Selective Channel, Combat Healer
8:
9: Divine Protection
10:
11: Divine Interference, Lifesense
orisons (9): Detect Magic, Create Water, Enhanced Diplomacy, Light, Stabilize, Guidance, Purify Food and Drink, Mending, Detect Poison, Read Magic
1st (7): Burning Disarm, Command, Comprehend Languages, Liberating Command, Protection from Evil, Tap Inner Beauty, Shield of Faith, Sanctuary
2nd (7): Admonishing Ray, Burst of Radiance, Hold Person, Pilfering Hand, Soothing Word, Sound Burst, Early Judgment, Calm Emotions, Grace
3rd (6): Chain of Perdition, Dispel Magic, Archon’s Aura, Communal Align Weapon, Charitable Impulse, Divine Illumination, Greater Stunning Barrier
4th (5): Dismissal, Holy Smite, Air Walk, Dimensional Anchor, Freedom of Movement, Divination, Death Ward
5th (2): Greater Command, Spell Resistance, Wall of Stone, Raise Dead, Holy Ice, Hymn of Mercy
6th: Banishment, Chains of Light, Greater Dispel Magic, Joyful Rapture
7th: Archon’s Trumpet, Holy Word, Hymn of Peace, Waves of Ecstasy
8th: Euphoric Tranquility
9th: Miracle, Overwhelming Presence
Not all the spells listed are ones that I have yet, but they are ideas.
Mechanically speaking, I'd suggest dumping Str/Dex as well, to provide in game reasoning for not wanting to be anywhere near the front lines of combat. You are kinda already going to be "dead weight" to the party in some respects in combat. The game is unfortunately more "tuned" to damage prevention via killing stuff faster than you take damage, than recovery/healing through the damage as it comes.
If you haven't already heard of the Oradin, I might suggest taking a look for it. An oracle/paladin multi class. Use the chassis and focus on CON/CHA, get some decent saves and armor proficiency for survivability. Take fey foundling and whatever else you can to buff your healing and act as a HP battery for your party. It might not be exactly what you are looking for, but it will allow you to do what you want without being too much of a drag on the party going for th concept you want.
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Mechanically speaking, I'd suggest dumping Str/Dex as well, to provide in game reasoning for not wanting to be anywhere near the front lines of combat. You are kinda already going to be "dead weight" to the party in some respects in combat. The game is unfortunately more "tuned" to damage prevention via killing stuff faster than you take damage, than recovery/healing through the damage as it comes.
to be fair, healing mitigates a lot of damage, take a paladin for instance, he took fey foundling, at level 8 thats 4d6+8 healing a turn for himself, without fey foundling its 4d6 but still. now make that a channel, 4d6 may not seem like much, but when it gives you over 50% of your HP back throughout a fight....
Mechanically speaking, I'd suggest dumping Str/Dex as well, to provide in game reasoning for not wanting to be anywhere near the front lines of combat. You are kinda already going to be "dead weight" to the party in some respects in combat. The game is unfortunately more "tuned" to damage prevention via killing stuff faster than you take damage, than recovery/healing through the damage as it comes.to be fair, healing mitigates a lot of damage, take a paladin for instance, he took fey foundling, at level 8 thats 4d6+8 healing a turn for himself, without fey foundling its 4d6 but still. now make that a channel, 4d6 may not seem like much, but when it gives you over 50% of your HP back throughout a fight....
Which if you had unlimited healing and action economy wasn't a "thing", would be great.
You don't, you have limited resources and limits/ways by which to do it, by killing the monster faster you wouldn't have had to heal nearly as much damage...
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The type of Pacifism I'm discussing is more like a high class noble that disdains resorting to violence and if it comes down to it gets others to fight for himI suppose this works, as long as you can rationalize that you joined and are an agent of a society who's entire premise is to send you into conflict on a regular basis to achieve their goals. Conflicts that while occasionally being able to be 100% diplomatically resolved, will be in the majority resulting in violence
Very true and I agree. It's more of the style of "Resorting to violence is primitive and lowly but if you force me to then I have no other choice." Using spells and skills to avoid combat and last resort using spells to hinder and remove threats (hold person, summon monster, etc) all while still using typical buff spells to improve the party.
I'm torn between Cleric and Oracle though.
Life Oracle -
1) Has more spells per day, spontanious caster
2) Charisma higher for more channels and better social skills
3) Interesting Revelations that seem quite useful
4) More skill points per level
5) Higher channel value than Evangelist Cleric
6) Proficient with Medium armor and Shields over Evangelist Cleric
Evangelist Cleric -
1) Bard songs (Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, etc)
2) 1 Domain
3) Able to cast 6th level spells at level 11
How much is Inspire Courage and Greatness worth, and the ability to cast 6th level spells over what the Life Oracle has?
Looking at the FCB's for Oracle I'm thinking that the Half-Elf FCB is actually better than the Elf FCB. I'm not seeing a whole lot in the Life Oracle section that would benefit greatly by boosting the Revelation's effective level and having a bigger selection of spells to cast from seems like a solid choice. Thoughts and suggestions?
Actually found the link for Oradin:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?257365-PF-Oradin-Mini-Guide-O r-How-to-be-a-Healbot-minus-the-bot
It could be tweaked easily for what you want to do.
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Mechanically speaking, I'd suggest dumping Str/Dex as well, to provide in game reasoning for not wanting to be anywhere near the front lines of combat. You are kinda already going to be "dead weight" to the party in some respects in combat. The game is unfortunately more "tuned" to damage prevention via killing stuff faster than you take damage, than recovery/healing through the damage as it comes.to be fair, healing mitigates a lot of damage, take a paladin for instance, he took fey foundling, at level 8 thats 4d6+8 healing a turn for himself, without fey foundling its 4d6 but still. now make that a channel, 4d6 may not seem like much, but when it gives you over 50% of your HP back throughout a fight....Which if you had unlimited healing and action economy wasn't a "thing", would be great.
You don't, you have limited resources and limits/ways by which to do it, by killing the monster faster you wouldn't have had to heal nearly as much damage...
at level 7 a cleric could easily channel energy 11 times a day. on top of any spells she has for healing. limited? yes, but combat shouldn't be taking extremely long, I'd wager 2-3 channels per HARD/BOSS fights. especially if you have 5+ players. If you build a character around healing/buffing Its actually quite a valid build in a 5+ party.
Valid doesn't mean it is better than killing the boss first and preventing all the damage the boss did in those rounds.
I'm not saying healing is "bad", I'm saying it is less optimal. Feel free to disagree, but the game mechanics prove you wrong.
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@OP: Does it meet your standard of pacifism to Summon Monsters to kill things or, more likely, be killed? You are not actually doing it ...
I mention this option for a couple reasons. First, Clerics can be pretty good at summoning. Second, your occasional summoned creature on the front lines, giving flanks, provides excellent damage mitigation. Ideally put the summons(es) where the deadliest foe(s) will focus on it :-)
Were you to sometimes summon things and support & heal allies this would completely alleviate any concerns about you pulling your own weight in combat. But this depends on your motivation ...
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Valid doesn't mean it is better than killing the boss first and preventing all the damage the boss did in those rounds.
I'm not saying healing is "bad", I'm saying it is less optimal. Feel free to disagree, but the game mechanics prove you wrong.
yes, it does make you wonder how deadly a party of 5 wizards casting save or suck spells could be :P
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In combat healing is great and a wonderful blessing to have when it's needed. That said, a skilled group doing PFS missions rarely needs much in-combat healing. Usually. Except when someone is foolish or things go bad or it's a poorly balanced team or someone makes a bad mistake or is especially unlucky ...
So long as the pacifist cleric has something solid to do when in-combat healing is not needed, things are copacetic. Magda, a failed-pacifist-who-is-a-mass-killer cleric of Shelyn, probably only did some in-combat healing about 25% of missions, or about one fight in ten.
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In combat healing is great and a wonderful blessing to have when it's needed. That said, a skilled group doing PFS missions rarely needs much in-combat healing. Usually. Except when someone is foolish or things go bad or it's a poorly balanced team or someone makes a bad mistake or is especially unlucky ...
So long as the pacifist cleric has something solid to do when in-combat healing is not needed, things are copacetic. Magda, a failed-pacifist-who-is-a-mass-killer cleric of Shelyn, probably only did some in-combat healing about 25% of missions, or about one fight in ten.
At my local area, there's not much a "skilled group doing PFS missions" because we have 20+ people that attend....meaning that you NEVER have the same group of people at the same time since we have about 8 people that GM often. Regardless of whatever, counting on having the same group in PFS missions for almost every mission sounds good but rarely ever happens.
Half-ELF FCB Oracle gives a big list of spontaneous casting spells to choose from which allows them to have things to do in combat....but the Evangelist Cleric always has a purpose since he/she can Inspire Courage. While both can cast Summon Monster.
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I think the Oradin suggests either standing around and being useful at healing or directly attacking the enemy..which I've posted a few builds in the past on optimizing an Oradin in another thread.
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I appreciate people's advice so far but I believe people aren't fully reading my posts as the purpose of my build suggestion was to replace AC with a high Will save. Hopefully this helps with understanding the direction I'm suggesting with my build concept. With a high enough DC enemies can't target you and you're free to summon monsters to your heart's content, inspire courage the entire battle, or heal others without provoking attacks...the only weakness AoE spells hitting you which can be mitigated with Protection from Energy spells or etc. You also can't directly attack an enemy so the natural direction is to use actions that don't directly attack the enemy.
So, the question comes down to: Can a Life Oracle find as much usefulness in being a reactionary healer and a party buffer as an Evangelist Cleric? Second, what feats and traits can one utilize to improve upon this concept?
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I've never played played twice with the exact same PFS group, either. Sometimes a team comes together really well. I was just observing that quality of play increases greatly in groups at level 6+. In such groups it's common to have a table with no weak link.
A Life Oracle can totally be as useful as an Evangelist cleric. The most effective Life Oracle I've GMd for had somehow acquired just a few Arcane spells, and used them really well. Did battlefield control with Glitterdust, Summons, and such, while simultaneously doing what a Life Oracle does best. I recall Quick Channels that kept Summoned Monsters & allies alive. Worked really well in a tough environment. I believe this PC qualified as a technical pacifist, but won't swear to it.
Had I to choose between them, without knowing the composition of the group, I'd flip a coin. Says the Evangelist Cleric. Magda loves to have a Life Oracle in the party, as do most sane Pathfinders. The mere presence of a Life Oracle almost ensures that no one will die from cumulative HP damage, only from sudden bursts and non-HP factors, so long as the rest of the party is reasonably balanced.
Edit: P.s. With your pumped-up casting DC you could maximize the benefit of your pacifism by milking Sanctuary for all it's worth. Find a way to get Sanctuary as a Swift Action, so you can have it active at the start of every fight. Easy to do by 8th level, not sure how you would accomplish that earlier. Heal and Summon to your heart's content, and most foes won't be able to target you. This largely removes the need for your team to protect you, which the protectors will appreciate. This effectively substitutes your spell DC for your armor class. To really show you have large gonads you stand in the front line and draw wasted AoOs, to clear the way for others.
There are two especially strong archetypes to help team-supporting life oracles: Dual-cursed, and Spirit Guide.
Dual-cursed gives you Misfortune, which allows you to force rerolls on opponents and even teammates. Negate criticals from enemies, help teammates land a killing blow against a low HP who's going to act shortly, or allow your teammate an extra saving throw.
Spirit Guide level 3 lets you pick up the shaman's Lore spirit and the Arcane Enlightenment hex. Now you can cast all the awesome low level wizard control and utility spells like grease, glitterdust, stinking cloud, and haste. All you need is a higher than average intelligence, which isn't a problem because you've dumped strength.
Sadly, these archetypes can't be taken on the same character. Of the two, Spirit Guide is more active (because it plays like a wizard,) while Dual-cursed is more reactive.
If you want even more party-wide rerolling goodness, worship Pharasma and take Fateful Channel. This can be done by both clerics and oracles.