What's really funny is that one of the better enchants to add to the weapon shield is brilliant energy. Meaning you will have a shield with a +5 enhancement shield bonus that can't actually block. Although by RAW, it would somehow give you the same AC bonus if used as a shield.
If you're not announcing it as a shield bash, it's not a shield bash. It's no different then announcing you're setting a spear, or stabbing with a sword instead of hacking with it.
So no, it's not going to count as a shield bash. Kindly note it counts as a light spiked shield, which does piercing damage, and the blade does slashing. they are obviously different aspects of the same weapon, like a hammer-backed axe.
==Aelryinth
A klar says it is a spiked shield. The rules say an attack with a spiked shield is a shield bash. So by the transitive property any attack with the klar is a shield bash. Or are you saying that you can attack with a spiked shield in a way that isn't a shield bash.
If you're not announcing it as a shield bash, it's not a shield bash. It's no different then announcing you're setting a spear, or stabbing with a sword instead of hacking with it.
So no, it's not going to count as a shield bash. Kindly note it counts as a light spiked shield, which does piercing damage, and the blade does slashing. they are obviously different aspects of the same weapon, like a hammer-backed axe.
==Aelryinth
Show me where it says in the PRD that a Klar is a Light Spiked Shield. The quoted part I got was from the PRD of Ultimate Equipment. Here's what it says in the Weapon section:
The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short metal blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard, but a skilled smith can craft one entirely out of metal. A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes.
The armor section RAW is mirrored. So according to hardcover, which would override the Adventurer's Armory entry, it's a light shield that has armor spikes. Unless you're saying Armor Spikes would constitute as Shield Spikes (something that is a stretch to say the least), it's a light shield, so 1D3 damage.
@BBT et al sorry I've been offline for a few days. No point rolling back to my bit of the debate as you have all moved on. Sorry to have left you hanging.
Now what were we saying about splat books...
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It doesn't contribute as well as Strength since...Keep in mind that Dex-based does not contribute well to damage, and shields are not inherently finessable. Given you're going to have a fine AC anyways (you're using a shield you're going to push to max enhancement, after all) AC isn't going to be a problem for you. I suggest you stay strength-based.
If you think you'll have the rage rounds, Furious and Courageous are indeed good choices. But remember that Furious increases your Weapon enhancement bonus, not your SHIELD enhancement bonus. Thus, using it with Defender grants you extra AC, not more th/dmg, unless you are NOT using Shield Master.
Enhancement bonuses from different sources don't stack unless they say so. Thus, enhancement from weapon and enhancement from armor are different sources, and don't stack, unless your DM house-rules otherwise. Allowing them to stack for purposes of weapon toughness/hit points really won't make much difference except come sunder time, and would fit thematically, but no, not by RAW.
Courageous on both shields is a waste. It increases morale bonuses you have...two Courageous shields will overlap, not stack, in their effect.
Furious won't stack with your Shield's Armor bonus being used by Shield Master. Unless you want it to boost defender, it'll also be wasted. You are better off with Defiant vs something...+2 to Shield AC, +2 TH/Dmg!
One of your better options might be Ghost Touch since it'll give you a Ghost Touch weapon AND defense. Combine with your other shield getting Ray Deflection or something, and you can start getting a really thorough defense.
But I'll reiterate that you probably don't need a Dex build to make this work. A 13 Starting Dex and a +6 booster at some point will get you all the Dex you need.
I'll also note the Guardian Weapon enhancement...same as defender, but SAVING THROWS. Also perfect for an Uber Shield, esp if your DM rules that Defender AC bonuses do not stack with themselves.
==Aelrynth
Hey friendo, the Shield-Trained trait is amazing. It makes heavy shields light weapons (thus finesseable).
...Hey friendo, the Shield-Trained trait is amazing. It makes heavy shields light weapons (thus finesseable).
From the sublime to the ridiculous! Would you still take the ACP on your to hit for carrying a shield whilst using Weapon Finesse & Shield Trained? Though at least you can't use it two-handed if a Heavy Shield becomes Light for you...
Load of nonsense! I'm out of here.
If you're not announcing it as a shield bash, it's not a shield bash. It's no different then announcing you're setting a spear, or stabbing with a sword instead of hacking with it.
So no, it's not going to count as a shield bash. Kindly note it counts as a light spiked shield, which does piercing damage, and the blade does slashing. they are obviously different aspects of the same weapon, like a hammer-backed axe.
==Aelryinth
Show me where it says in the PRD that a Klar is a Light Spiked Shield. The quoted part I got was from the PRD of Ultimate Equipment. Here's what it says in the Weapon section:
The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short metal blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard, but a skilled smith can craft one entirely out of metal. A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes.The armor section RAW is mirrored. So according to hardcover, which would override the Adventurer's Armory entry, it's a light shield that has armor spikes. Unless you're saying Armor Spikes would constitute as Shield Spikes (something that is a stretch to say the least), it's a light shield, so 1D3 damage.
Since you can't put armor spikes on a shield, and you can't put shield spikes on armor, I think we can safely assume this is a typo and editing error. It's meant to be a spiked shield. Otherwise, they wouldn't mention spikes at all, because they'd be meaningless.
A Shield Bash follows specific rules and has specific damages.
A Klar's primary blade is not a Shield Bash. You actually have to declare a shield bash, because you normally lose the AC benefit of the shield when doing so, remember? It's a very specific attack style.
When you declare a shield bash, the shield does damage based on x. For the Klar, it's a spiked light shield, d4. And you're bashing with the shield and its spikes, not cutting with the blade. As I've said repeatedly, this is no different then using the blunt side of a pick or axe to mash something.
That said, it's all still one weapon.
If it meant to say, "The Klar does its normal damage when used to shield bash" it would say so. Or it would say "A shield bash with a Klar does the Klar's normal damage."
It does not. It says it's a light spiked shield, which is different from the Klar's normal damage. So, when bashing, you treat it differently.
WHY you would do this, I dunno. Not much stuff out there with DR/Piercing. And without a feat, you'd lose the shield AC. But, that's how it's written.
==Aelryinth
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The spikes on the klar might be in error
But even if they're not I'm not in terror
You could put armor spikes on your head
If you're kinky they might be on your bed
Armor spikes could be anywhere
Armor spikes are always fair
Armor spikes occupy your hand
When Two Weapon Fighting is in demand
This poem is the worst I've written
I think I might deserve to be Smitten
Neither a spiked shield or armor spikes do slashing damage, so the klar is kind of weird no matter how you choose to read the RAW.
Regarding the Defending Shield and Shield Master combo, it is a small enough corner case that we might never see a developer comment on it, but I'd expect them to rule it down since there was a previous FAQ demanding that you must attack with a Defending weapon to gain the AC benefit. Attacking with the weapon but not using the lower bonus doesn't seem in line with the spirit of the Defending enchantment to me, and besides that I'm not sure if you really get two separate enhancement bonuses which can be given up or kept separately.
I've got a PC who plans to take Shield Master in a few levels and has a pretty low Will save, so I'd kind of like to be proven wrong and get the Guardian enchantment on his shield. If I tried it I'd live in fear of getting FAQ'd though.
Regarding the Defending Shield and Shield Master combo, it is a small enough corner case that we might never see a developer comment on it, but I'd expect them to rule it down since there was a previous FAQ demanding that you must attack with a Defending weapon to gain the AC benefit. Attacking with the weapon but not using the lower bonus doesn't seem in line with the spirit of the Defending enchantment to me, and besides that I'm not sure if you really get two separate enhancement bonuses which can be given up or kept separately.
I've got a PC who plans to take Shield Master in a few levels and has a pretty low Will save, so I'd kind of like to be proven wrong and get the Guardian enchantment on his shield. If I tried it I'd live in fear of getting FAQ'd though.
How is that FAQ relevant to stacking bonuses? All it does it clarify the conditions for Defending to be applicable, which is in rounds that you make attacks with the given weapon, a mechanic completely separate from determining how much you can sacrifice on your shield.
I also suggest you re-read the Shield Master feat carefully, and compare to the rules listed for Defending:
Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus.
A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the weapon's enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others.
So let's say I have a +5 Bashing/+1 Defending shield, for example, and I have that feat. When I make an attack, I have two sources of weapon enhancement bonuses, one is a +5 (from the Shield Enhancement Bonus via Shield Master, which is treated as a weapon enhancement bonus), the other is a +1 (from the weapon itself). If I choose to activate the Defending property, I would only be able to take off the +1, as the +5 I get from Shield Master applies to attack and damage rolls, and is derived from the Shield Enhancement Bonus; it's not an actual weapon enhancement bonus like the +1 is, and is not applicable as such 24/7, because it's only added to attack and damage rolls, not for other benefits.
A more loose interpretation would allow me to treat the +5 and +1 as the same enhancement bonus type, and I could squeeze out a +6 benefit from Defending, but I'm not supporting something like that to be applicable from the rules.
If we change the example shield to a +5 Bashing/+5 Defending, I would get the +5 benefit from Defending while still maintaining a +5 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls via Shield Master. Tack on the Furious enchant, this would increase to a +7 benefit from Defending (though not a +7 benefit to attack and damage rolls from Shield Master, obviously).
@ Aelryinth: I always thought the armor spikes represented it being a 1-handed weapon from the table, since it has identical damage cells and everything, but I forgot the damage type changes.
I would also point out that you mean it's only one item, not one weapon, since you could have 2 (technically 3 if we're loose with the description interpretation) weapons enhanced on that item (the shield as if it were a weapon, and the blade itself).
Darksol, the entire argument here is about the Klar not having two weapons to enhance. It's one item, one weapon, and nowhere is it called out that you can enhance the klar's blade separately.
Conceivably, if it was, you could have one weapon that is +5 Defender/+5 Bashing Shield/+5 Defender shield. Attack with a shield bash, +16 AC for me!...On one weapon.
Stretching the klar to be a second weapon is just that...a stretch. It's no more a second weapon then the hammer backing an axe or pick is. It's just a choice of changing damage type...and a poor choice if you do, for the most part. It'd be better if it weren't Spiked...blunt is at least useful against skellies!
==Aelryinth
The earlier FAQ ruled that you need to actually use the weapon with the reduced enhancement bonus to attack so you can benefit from Defending property. I'm not sure if whoever wrote it likely considered whether or not you'd be likely to have another source of enhancement bonus to apply to the same attack and override the sacrifice you made to gain higher AC.
I don't think there was anything in the original RAW which stated or even implied you had to attack with the weapon to gain the AC bonus. I saw people putting Defending on armor spikes they never intended to use just to claim the AC bonus. The FAQ came along and ruled against that, seemingly in the spirit that the Defending property is supposed to let you give up attack and damage bonuses to gain an AC bonus instead and you can't just trade in a bonus you weren't using anyhow. Jason Bulhmahn and SKR could appear moments from now, tell me I'm a silly goofball, and ask me to stop thinking about what they might rule if they cared about this corner case. Until something like that or a FAQ happens I'll probably consider this a grey area in the rules at best though.
I'd consider whether you can sacrifice the enhancement bonus gained from Shield Master to fuel Defending a somewhat separate question. If you can sacrifice a bonus gained from Greater Magic Weapon then I'd probably allow you to sacrifice the bonus from Shield Master too. This could still be useful since you could have weapon enchantments on the shield other than more plusses to use with Defending. You'd still be able to enjoy the normal benefit of Defending, but you'd also be able to fit in stuff like Cruel or Holy.
Darksol, the entire argument here is about the Klar not having two weapons to enhance. It's one item, one weapon, and nowhere is it called out that you can enhance the klar's blade separately.
Secondly, for Defender's ability does not allow you to use a weapon's armor enhancement bonus for defense, and Shield Master does not say that you use it as a Weapon Enhancement bonus for all purposes...you use it that way ONLY for Th/DMG rolls. So no go on Defender.
Otherwise, you could, for instance, throw FLaming onto a +1 AC shield if you had Shield Master, because it's treated as a '+1 Weapon', and then the next guy without shield master picks it up and it doesn't work.
Stretching the klar to be a second weapon is just that...a stretch. It's no more a second weapon then the hammer backing an axe or pick is. It's just a choice of changing damage type...and a poor choice if you do, for the most part. It'd be better if it weren't Spiked...blunt is at least useful against skellies!
==Aelryinth
So then any enhancements made to the shield (as a weapon) would confer to the Klar Blade, if applicable, and vice-versa, since they are in-fact one weapon?
And you're repeating what I said regarding the Defending towards Devilkiller, and I gave concise examples as to how that is.
If it's really a stretch, then like Melkiador says, if you enhance one, you inadvertantly enhance both.
sorry, I deleted the extras after I read your post more thoroughly.
And yes, the klar blade is effectively a big blade sticking out of the shield. If you weapon enhance the klar, you enhance it as a shield and the blade because they are all one item. That's exactly what I'm saying. Nothing inadvertent about it...the klar is shield and blade, not just the blade, + a shield added on. You enhance the whole klar, not a section of it.
If you think of the blade sticking out of it as an extra big spike, that's probably helpful.
But there's no language in the item that it's a double weapon of any kind, and enhanced separately from the shield it is a part of.
==Aelryinth