What Are The Best De-Buff Spells?


Advice


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Guys, I need your help! For this week's Improved Initiative I'm putting together a list of the best de-buff spells. In this case when I say best what I mean is de-buff spells that ignore SR, allow no save, or which have a partial effect even on a successful save. Spells like Ray of Enfeeblement or Ray of Exhaustion are ideal examples. The link to the list as it stands is below.

If you've got a spell you think needs to be added please give me the name, book, and page number (if you've got it) or give me a link on the pfsrd if you don't have your books to hand. For this particular project no 3rd party magic.

Thanks!

The Current List of Pathfinder's Best De-Buff Spells


Ill Omen has no save. It's especially good if you have an Improved Familiar with a wand of it.


Maze - No save. While technically not a de-buff I would call being stuck in a labyrinth for 10 minutes or until you roll a 20 Int check a pretty good alternative to a de-buff.


Rimed frost bite with enforcer feat.
Makes enemy cry for mommy


Also, no Stinking Cloud on the list? The nauseated effect does have a save, but no SR, and the Fog Cloud effect has no save.

Black Tentacles is also no save/no SR.


RumpinRufus wrote:

Also, no Stinking Cloud on the list? The nauseated effect does have a save, but no SR, and the Fog Cloud effect has no save.

Black Tentacles is also no save/no SR.

I'd say that both of those are area of effects which can cause status problems. I'm going to do a separate list for area of effect/battlefield control spells, and both of these will be on that list.


RumpinRufus wrote:
Ill Omen has no save. It's especially good if you have an Improved Familiar with a wand of it.

This one is now on the list.


Neal Litherland wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:

Also, no Stinking Cloud on the list? The nauseated effect does have a save, but no SR, and the Fog Cloud effect has no save.

Black Tentacles is also no save/no SR.

I'd say that both of those are area of effects which can cause status problems. I'm going to do a separate list for area of effect/battlefield control spells, and both of these will be on that list.

A pretty solid majority of the time, good debuffs are what you just called battlefield control.

The problem is, if you're aiming at one target you want to go beyond debuffing. Aiming at one target with a spell means you open up Hold Monster, or Flesh to Stone, or Create Pit, or whatever save-or-suck spell you prefer, as a viable option. This is why Slow is a bad spell: why would I want to Slow you if I can just take you out of the fight?

If you're aiming at multiple targets, debuffing suddenly becomes awesome... but you don't want those awesome debuff spells for your list.

Looking over the list your categorization seems... odd. The Magus uses Color Spray better than the Wizard due to being much more comfortable at that 15' range. And yet you don't even note it as a Magus spell?

Bestow Curse is extremely nasty, if a bit unwieldy. 50% chance to do nothing, permanently, is kind of insane. Hard to land initially (touch range + SR + Will save), but once that happens it's a huge pain to get rid of. Its Greater version is even nastier.


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I actually think Slow is a reasonably good spell.

It targets one enemy/level.
It allows only one save, and lasts one round/level.
The save it allows synergizes with its intended target (Will and martials).
It prevents enemies from ever full-attacking. (Unless they have pounce. But pounce is just awesome in general.)
It halves your enemies' speed.
It often makes it so your enemies have to waste entire turns just getting into the right position.
It works really well when combined with reach tactics and/or difficult terrain.
It combines nicely with some level-reducing effects, such as Mystic Past Life to make it a level 2 witch spell or Magical Lineage/Wayang Spellhunter to make it Persistent at no cost.
Just for fun, it hands out a random -1 to AC, attack rolls, and Reflex saves.

Not as good as Haste, but worth casting at the beginning of long combats.


kestral287 wrote:
Neal Litherland wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:

Also, no Stinking Cloud on the list? The nauseated effect does have a save, but no SR, and the Fog Cloud effect has no save.

Black Tentacles is also no save/no SR.

I'd say that both of those are area of effects which can cause status problems. I'm going to do a separate list for area of effect/battlefield control spells, and both of these will be on that list.

A pretty solid majority of the time, good debuffs are what you just called battlefield control.

The problem is, if you're aiming at one target you want to go beyond debuffing. Aiming at one target with a spell means you open up Hold Monster, or Flesh to Stone, or Create Pit, or whatever save-or-suck spell you prefer, as a viable option. This is why Slow is a bad spell: why would I want to Slow you if I can just take you out of the fight?

If you're aiming at multiple targets, debuffing suddenly becomes awesome... but you don't want those awesome debuff spells for your list.

Looking over the list your categorization seems... odd. The Magus uses Color Spray better than the Wizard due to being much more comfortable at that 15' range. And yet you don't even note it as a Magus spell?

Bestow Curse is extremely nasty, if a bit unwieldy. 50% chance to do nothing, permanently, is kind of insane. Hard to land initially (touch range + SR + Will save), but once that happens it's a huge pain to get rid of. Its Greater version is even nastier.

Here's my logic for the choices I'm making.

There are a HUGE amount of spells in Pathfinder. However, if I have to make a roll to get through SR, and THEN the bad guy gets a save against what I'm doing that's 2 chances for it to go awry. I want to either eliminate my target's chance to save against what I'm doing, or I want a consolation prize when the villain saves against my spell. It's why I'm never sad when the bad guy saves against Ray of Enfeeblement, because even with the minimum effect I'm reducing his modifier between 1 and 2 points (at my current level).

The categorization is simply the areas that I find the spells in first. I could go through and exhaustively tag and repeat every spell under every class that can cast it, but it's why I put the paragraph up top telling people to check and see if the class they like can cast a given spell. Because it's likely that some spells will be cast by a dozen different classes you need to check. That's why I provided the page number, so you can easily see if it's a Witch-only spell, or if your Magus, Sorcerer, Cleric, Inquisitor, Ranger, or Oracle can cast it too.


Avoron wrote:
I actually think Slow is a reasonably good spell.

Somehow I'd gotten it into my head that Slow was single-target only. My mistake. I stand by the point; replace Slow with whatever debuff you're using that isn't also battlefield control (which, based on the list provided, is kind of nebulous).

Neal Litherland wrote:

Here's my logic for the choices I'm making.

There are a HUGE amount of spells in Pathfinder. However, if I have to make a roll to get through SR, and THEN the bad guy gets a save against what I'm doing that's 2 chances for it to go awry. I want to either eliminate my target's chance to save against what I'm doing, or I want a consolation prize when the villain saves against my spell. It's why I'm never sad when the bad guy saves against Ray of Enfeeblement, because even with the minimum effect I'm reducing his modifier between 1 and 2 points (at my current level).

The categorization is simply the areas that I find the spells in first. I could go through and exhaustively tag and repeat every spell under every class that can cast it, but it's why I put the paragraph up top telling people to check and see if the class they like can cast a given spell. Because it's likely that some spells will be cast by a dozen different classes you need to check. That's why I provided the page number, so you can easily see if it's a Witch-only spell, or if your Magus, Sorcerer, Cleric, Inquisitor, Ranger, or Oracle can cast it too.

On the categorization: my recommendation would be to arrange them alphabetically and include which classes can cast them, or try to rank them on a power scale and do the same, or arrange by the standard (Wizard/Cleric) and then note who else gets them. This particular method of categorization seems flawed though, because there's no real organization to it-- I certainly can't use it to quickly find all the useful Magus spells, for example. If you are going to go by class, I would try to arrange things by the class that uses them best (Color Spray as an Oracle spell first and foremost, for example).

On the selections: I would say that any spell that's nasty enough should go on the list, especially if it has some other qualities. For instance, Bestow Curse is not only a very powerful debuff in its own right, it can't be dispelled in the normal ways and is permanent. That can provide new dimensions of options that give it utility where other debuffs can't try to go.

... Though the best user of Bestow Curse I've found is the Alchemist, which probably says a lot about something.

Finally, Fleshworm Infestation is kind of a cool spell, though Touch range isn't nice and it's bumping up against the levels where I'd rather just Baleful Polymorph you. Forcing a save every round and either sickened or staggered is nice though; the Dex damage makes things worse and the HP damage... okay that's really low so mreh. Of course, it is Evil and the fluff is kind of gross. These may be good or bad things.


Wall of Thorns? No save, no SR.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Huge fan of enervation. It has SR but no save. Negative levels are killers. And it can crit!


Fergie wrote:
Wall of Thorns? No save, no SR.

It's a good spell, but it's a wall spell. Walls, mists, black tentacles, etc. are being saved for a later article on battlefield control rather than targeted debuff. I've definitely marked it for that list, though.


Burst of Radiance should also make the list. 10-ft radius of Blinded for 1d4 rounds (or dazzled instead on a Reflex save)? Yes please! And there's some rider damage for evil creatures, no save.

(The GM in my game has nerfed this spell.)

The Exchange

Elf + spell penetration and greater. Almost always never worry about SR again! Most debuffs are arcane, so it would be a good idea to be a wizard anyway.

Add slow to the list.

If you can figure out how to use it, pryotechnics for blind. Biggest spell range I've ever seen, anything within 120 ft needs to make save or get blinded. Probably best when vs an entire army, with advanced planning.


Just a Mort wrote:

Elf + spell penetration and greater. Almost always never worry about SR again! Most debuffs are arcane, so it would be a good idea to be a wizard anyway.

Add slow to the list.

If you can figure out how to use it, pryotechnics for blind. Biggest spell range I've ever seen, anything within 120 ft needs to make save or get blinded. Probably best when vs an entire army, with advanced planning.

Firefall has a similarly obnoxious range and will kill whatever's close to it if you're pointing at an actual army. Kinda... not-great for personal use though.

I do have to agree with your point though. Honestly when I'm building a spell list, I don't worry overmuch about SR. Throw in a few SR: No spells just in case you run across a Golem, sure, but that's not hard. Spell Penetration & Greater and the Elf bonus more than accommodate for any concerns about actual SR.


Just a Mort wrote:
If you can figure out how to use it, pryotechnics for blind. Biggest spell range I've ever seen, anything within 120 ft needs to make save or get blinded. Probably best when vs an entire army, with advanced planning.

Don't forget Storm of Vengeance! 360 ft. radius ftw!


I've been a fan of wolf savage for a while now, because it's not just curse, it's at will curse with no saves.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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RumpinRufus wrote:

Also, no Stinking Cloud on the list? The nauseated effect does have a save, but no SR, and the Fog Cloud effect has no save.

Black Tentacles is also no save/no SR.

Black Tentacles PLUS Stinking Cloud can be a real killer. Escaping requires a standard action, and being nauseated reduces you to a move action.


Dustyboy wrote:
I've been a fan of wolf savage for a while now, because it's not just curse, it's at will curse with no saves.

It does have a save. No SR, though.

Grand Lodge

Silence was not mentioned....Gonna have to mention a Casting Silence on your fighter's greatsword or archer's arrow is really a good way to effectively shut down enemy casters.

Nothing says De-buffed like taking away casting from a class.

I personally like making Web work. Its not as good as some other debuffs but I do like the grappled, difficult terrain, and cover it can provide. Not to mention taking a little extra damage from your burning Hands that follows. Not as reliable but very fun if you go out your way to make it work.


Archon's Aura is a good lvl 3 version of the cleric's Aura of Doom. And both stack. So casting them together can make your Cleric an excellent debuffer, since if they fail the first aura save it makes them even more susceptible to failing the second.


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I am a lover of Calcific Touch. It has a save, but only for the slow effect. Even if they save, they still take 1d4 dex every time you touch them.


For arcane casters, good low level debuff/control spells I use are:

1) Glue Trap (single target entangle, movement reduction), Grease (AoE trip or single target disarm), Color Spray (AoE unconscious, blind, and/or stun)

2) Glitterdust (AoE blind, invis reveal, no SR, will save, affects things immune to fort saves), Blindness/Deafness (permanent blind, no save after initial failure), Ghoul Touch (paralyze and sicken everything around the target)

There are others, but those are the ones I tend to use a lot on my sorcerers.


Frostbite shuts down charging too.

Sound Burst also makes non-locked gauntlet users drop whatever they are holding.

Sirocco is a fine 6th level spell sure, but it's an AMAZING 4th level one for a Wood elemental wizard.


I have a question for folks here. How many people decided to post replies without reading the intro fully or without checking the list (both previous replies and the blog post that had all the spells I'd been adding throughout the day) as it existed to see if their spells were already on it?

This particular entry for me was done as an experiment to see how well surveying the community would work, but I've noticed a constant among the replies here and on all other forums/social media where I asked this question. That is most of the responses seem to ignore what I'm asking for (spells with no SR, no save, or a partial effect that cause a status effect, apply a penalty, or do damage to an ability score) by throwing in class abilities, or suggesting spells that are more of an area of effect (wall of thorns, web, etc.) which, while useful, are spells I've mentioned several times will go on a separate list of their own. Most of the rest of the replies mention spells that are ALREADY on the list.

The lesson I've learned from this is that the tendency I have as a gamer to be the first one to provide an answer to a question will be tempered by reading the original question carefully, and seeing what other people have contributed before I throw my two cents in. If someone's looking for helpful answers to a simple question it can get really frustrating wading through stuff that's already on the list over and over again.


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To be fair, your distinction between "debuff" and "battlefield control" is fairly arbitrary, and wasn't mentioned in either the OP or the website.

Spells like Web could very well be considered debuffs - debuffs apply conditions (or similar,) so a spell like Web that applies the grappled condition meets the standard definition of a debuff. If you originally ask for "X, Y, and Z" and then come in later down the thread explaining how X is different than Y and Z, it's not really fair to accuse people of "not reading the intro or checking the list."

Grand Lodge

I'm sorry My suggestion of Web: No SR, and Reduced effect for a successful save did not meet your criteria. I mean you center a 20 foot spread on a creature they will have to reflex and then get out of the area. Meaning multiple saves. I guess it doesn't qualify since it allows a save. Oh but ray of enfeeblement offers a save, and so does color spray. Guess those need to come off your list since they don't meet your criteria.

Same can be said about silence too. When used right like I explained it offers no SR, NO Save, and full effect of silencing casters. TO me that is a debuff when you apply a condition that puts them on the defensive and in bad shape. Most casters caught by surprise by this usually die. No one takes silent spell and if they did they are spending that turn trying to get out of the silenced area. SO it can take away actions.

But the lessons I'm trying to impart is A: there is no BEST and perfect debuff. B: You complaining about the very things you yourself already accepted. Gonna have to agree with Rufus that your either being unfair or trying to tick off everyone who wants to help you.

Shadow Lodge

Neal, make it as easy as possible for people to pick up on: give us a dot point list of what qualifies, and another dot point list of what doesn't. That will help get everyone started.


Apologies for upsetting people. Previous post was filled with a great deal of frustration.

I will concede that the OP didn't convey what I was looking for specifically enough, and that is my mistake. I was simply at a loss to understand why so many people mentioned the same spells over and over again when they'd either A) already appeared on the list deliberately linked in the original post, or B) already been suggested by other people.


De-buff?

What are the player's strengths? Then you have the de-buffs.


Neal Litherland wrote:
Guys, I need your help! For this week's Improved Initiative I'm putting together a list of the best de-buff spells. In this case when I say best what I mean is de-buff spells that ignore SR, allow no save, or which have a partial effect even on a successful save. Spells like Ray of Enfeeblement or Ray of Exhaustion are ideal examples. The link to the list as it stands is below.

By this definition of 'best debuff', Mudball counts, as it doesn't allow a save (until the START of the victim's turn) and is no SR.

That said, I personally don't think Mudball is a top-tier debuff. In my opinion, it's effect is too weak, though it's nice that it compliments the party rogue.

One reason why I like Bestow Curse and Major Curse is because, despite the fact that it allows SR and has a save, it works on a very wide range of targets. It works even on incorporeal, mindless, undead, construct, ooze enemies.

In fact, I think a lot of the 'best debuffs' listed in the OP's site doesn't work VS common Pathfinder enemies like a zombie. Part of the catch of these 'best debuffs' is that they are either a fortitude effect (undead and constructs are immune) or they are mind-affecting.


Euphoric Tranquility definitively a big one...
Overwhelming Presence : provides 1 round min of staggered on successful save...
Waves of Ecstasy : stunned and staggered or minimum staggered 1 round

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