Familiar Folio: Eldritch Guardian (and others) + Figment


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

So the Fighter can get a familiar through the Eldritch Guardian archetype, making it the only spell-less class to get one directly. But anyone can get it thanks to the new feats.

Problem: The Figment archetype of familiar makes your familiar disappear when you go unconscious until such time that you.. prepare or regain spells. Which is impossible if you don't have spells. This means the first time you go to bed you lose it, then never get it back.

Question: Is this archetype intended to be useless for non-casters or is standard resting sufficient? Or am I just missing something somewhere? I'm guessing it is intended to always return after a night's rest regardless of why it disappeared.

(Note: The figment *does* come back after a full night's rest if it dies, but not if it is lost due to the master falling asleep, distance, or an anti-magic field.)

Figment Text:
A figment has a total number of hit points equal to 1/4 the master's total hit points. If the figment dies, it vanishes, appearing again with 1 hit point after its master awakens from a full night's sleep. If a figment ever strays more than 100 feet from its master, a figment enters an antimagic field, or a figment's master is rendered unconscious or asleep, the figment disappears until the next time its master prepares spells or regains spells per day. Because it is a being of its master's own mind, a figment can never serve as a witch's familiar, and it can't use any divination spells or spell-like abilities it may possess.

This ability replaces improved evasion.

As a side note, I ask because I thought it would be interesting to have an Eldritch Guardian with a Figment+Sage familiar that acts as their own smarter-than-they-realize subconscious feeding them information.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

In order to prepare or regain spells, you have to have a full night's sleep. I believe the text assumes that the familiar of a spellcaster has this archetype.

So, it's not outside the bounds of reason to conclude that barring said assumption, the figment familiar returns after 8 hours of res ("awakens from a full night's sleep").

Liberty's Edge

Quintain wrote:

In order to prepare or regain spells, you have to have a full night's sleep. I believe the text assumes that the familiar of a spellcaster has this archetype.

So, it's not outside the bounds of reason to conclude that barring said assumption, the figment familiar returns after 8 hours of res ("awakens from a full night's sleep").

That's the assumption I would make as well, yet that's not what the text says. This may be an errata candidate.


Also, how would a Fighter, ect gain Improved Familiar?


DrDeth wrote:
how would a Fighter, ect gain Improved Familiar?

Not.

Grand Lodge

DrDeth wrote:

Also, how would a Fighter, ect gain Improved Familiar?

How would someone that has a familiar not get Improved Familiar? I don't see anything that bars them from taking it.

Improved Familiar, PRD wrote:


This feat allows you to acquire a powerful familiar, but only when you could normally acquire a new familiar.

Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below).
Benefit: When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed below are also available to you. You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil).

Sovereign Court

I've seen this on other threads, and by RAW you can't get a figment if you're not a spell caster...

IMO, the best "spell-less" archetypes available to the single classed eldritch guardian fighter are:

- Emissary;
- Mauler;
- Pilferer; and
- Protector.

(they basically all swap 'deliver touch spells' for something else, which is good news for a single class eldritch guardian; for a multi class eldritch guardian / caster, any archetype is good, depending on character concept)


You can take it but you don't get any benefit. as you don't have an Arcane Spellcaster Level so your level is 0 and I doubt that that's a sufficiently high level.

Grand Lodge

Chess Pwn wrote:
You can take it but you don't get any benefit. as you don't have an Arcane Spellcaster Level so your level is 0 and I doubt that that's a sufficiently high level.

And the eldritch gaurdian's effective wizard levels don't count as effective arcane caster levels? Or is a wizard somehow not an arcane caster in this context?


I've not seen anything that says effective wizard levels grants effective caster level. You have wizard levels for your familiar. Nothing says it gives you effective levels for feats and other things. Some say yes and some say no though, so table variation.

Grand Lodge

Chess Pwn wrote:
I've not seen anything that says effective wizard levels grants effective caster level. You have wizard levels for your familiar. Nothing says it gives you effective levels for feats and other things. Some say yes and some say no though, so table variation.

That's exactly what we're talking about.


claudekennilol wrote:
DrDeth wrote:

Also, how would a Fighter, ect gain Improved Familiar?

How would someone that has a familiar not get Improved Familiar? I don't see anything that bars them from taking it.

Improved Familiar, PRD wrote:


This feat allows you to acquire a powerful familiar, but only when you could normally acquire a new familiar.

Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below).
Benefit: When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed below are also available to you. You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil).

The levels they ask for are "Arcane Spellcaster Level".

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
DrDeth wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
DrDeth wrote:

Also, how would a Fighter, ect gain Improved Familiar?

How would someone that has a familiar not get Improved Familiar? I don't see anything that bars them from taking it.

Improved Familiar, PRD wrote:


This feat allows you to acquire a powerful familiar, but only when you could normally acquire a new familiar.

Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below).
Benefit: When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed below are also available to you. You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil).

The levels they ask for are "Arcane Spellcaster Level".

From my posts I obviously know that already. The point of contention is that I say that the fighter's wizard levels should qualify for that because that's exactly what they're there for.


claudekennilol wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
I've not seen anything that says effective wizard levels grants effective caster level. You have wizard levels for your familiar. Nothing says it gives you effective levels for feats and other things. Some say yes and some say no though, so table variation.
That's exactly what we're talking about.

And the the IMPROVED FAMILIAR feat ISN'T a familiar, thus nothing says to count your fighter level as anything but fighter for that feat.

Grand Lodge

Chess Pwn wrote:
And the the IMPROVED FAMILIAR feat ISN'T a familiar, thus nothing says to count your fighter level as anything but fighter for that feat.

This is the point where I bow out of the conversation because I'm not even going to attempt to put anything in writing to argue against that...

Dark Archive

As written, the fighter levels counting as wizard levels for the purposes of a familiar are separate from and do not grant an arcane caster level, which is what is needed for improved familiar. Therefore, fighters cannot take improved familiar, because the rules spell it out in a way that does not explicitly allow it, and while it does not expressly disallow it, that is not how the rules work. The rules must tell you that you are able to do something for you to be able to do it, and to get an improved familiar as a fighter you must make inferences not supported by the rules.

(aside: I wish that fighters could take improved familiars, because I love improved familiars myself, but I am firmly of the stance that as written they cannot)


claudekennilol wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
DrDeth wrote:

Also, how would a Fighter, ect gain Improved Familiar?

How would someone that has a familiar not get Improved Familiar? I don't see anything that bars them from taking it.

Improved Familiar, PRD wrote:


This feat allows you to acquire a powerful familiar, but only when you could normally acquire a new familiar.

Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below).
Benefit: When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed below are also available to you. You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil).

The levels they ask for are "Arcane Spellcaster Level".
From my posts I obviously know that already. The point of contention is that I say that the fighter's wizard levels should qualify for that because that's exactly what they're there for.

fighter's dont have wizard levels?????

Grand Lodge

DrDeth wrote:
fighter's dont have wizard levels?????

:facepalm: are you not familiar* with what the entire thread is talking about? (i.e. the Eldritch Guardian?) :runs away from thread again ignoring every other comment I want to make:

*pun not originally intended, then italicized for funsies


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
claudekennilol wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
fighter's dont have wizard levels?????

:facepalm: are you not familiar* with what the entire thread is talking about? (i.e. the Eldritch Guardian?) :runs away from thread again ignoring every other comment I want to make:

*pun not originally intended, then italicized for funsies

Well, yes, they have effective wizard levels. But my question is, are those OK for Arcane Spellcaster levels?


DrDeth wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
fighter's dont have wizard levels?????

:facepalm: are you not familiar* with what the entire thread is talking about? (i.e. the Eldritch Guardian?) :runs away from thread again ignoring every other comment I want to make:

*pun not originally intended, then italicized for funsies

Well, yes, they have effective wizard levels. But my question is, are those OK for Arcane Spellcaster levels?

Even if they were, they don't have those effective levels for the Feat, so it doesn't matter anyways.

Sovereign Court

ARGH! wrote:
(aside: I wish that fighters could take improved familiars, because I love improved familiars myself, but I am firmly of the stance that as written they cannot)

I hope this can be clarified. However I don't really have a huge problem with Improved Familiars being a no-no for Eldritch Guardians.

Why?

Main reason: because based on a RAW reading of Improved Familiar feat, most familiar archetypes are not allowed for Improved Familiars because of that little annoying sentence at the end (i.e. "improved familiars do not gain the ability to speak with other creatures of their kind")

Secondary reason: there's little advantage in getting Improved Familiar feat compared to getting another combat feat that you can already transfer to your more mundane familiar... you already sacrifice two feats by being an Eldritch Guardian, so that's two less feats to "pass on to your familiar". Now, if you take Improved Familiar, that's 3 feats you can't share. Furthermore, if that Improved Familiar cannot become a Mauler, he can't threaten in most case, so that's even more ridiculous if you ask me.

Bottom line: take Eldritch Guardian sure, but ditch the idea of an Improved Familiar, as cool as it would be.

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