Goblin Squad Member
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I am putting words to screen, more for my own purpose for I've not written anything for myself in a couple weeks now. So now I abuse paizo forums with my thoughts, and unfortunately you the reader as well. I bow in apology.
There is obviously an inherent struggle with the eternal debate in balancing pvp vs pve and I've little desire to champion one or the other on their own merits. I believe the title "sand Box MMO" immediately and without reservation, automatically combines the two terms PVE and PVP. While there may be an argument with some example out there that could prove me wrong, for the sake of treating PFO only in the context I've laid out, it should leave no illusions to what can be expected in PFO.
Having said that, the next jump forward will revolve around the mechanisms in game that will work to balance the two. But, I am not here to discuss what those will or should be. Instead, I'd like to focus on the idea of "What is the value of a life?".
Stepping away from the eternal debate, I choose to focus on my character's life. What is its value to me? To the world? And in answering these, it tells me not only where the game is, where it's going, but of my own enjoyment in it. Meaningful content does not exist without value and all value derives from life.
Be it the dedicated role-player, hardcore gatherer or the casual team that logs in on a Saturday night to take on an escalation, there should be an intrinsic value to you, which is your life. No one logs on in the hopes of dying, sure they may want to kill other characters, but they never want to die themselves. This shows some value of life. And we can expand upon it, in theory.
When we look at the end game, what do you see? I see a collection of companies working together to accomplish things. That involves social relationships and I believe this is at the heart of this games design. Under this umbrella lets revisit the value of life. Settlements will need supplies, how they get them encompasses all of the intended Open Sand Box intentions. What is the value of a gatherer to a settlement? Any settlement applies here, even a settlement that doesn't gather can still buy off the auction house or steal from players by looting their husks. So I ask again, what is the value of a life?
Will companies protect their gatherers? Is there enough value in that one character to utilize another players time to protect them? Couldn't we say that character guarding the gatherer at this very moment is just as valuable? When a character decides to attack, should they not be concerned with their character's life, and not just with the time it takes to respawn and jump back into the fight? I would think it is towards this end that GW should strive for. And maybe they are.
For myself, I hate dying, I hate it with a passion. When I decide to lead a raiding party, or take a tower, or even just handle an escalation, I want our lives to be meaningful, and not just expendable thanks to the respawn gods. If I take a small group south to Keeper's Pass from Marchmont, I want to be prepared, and forced to make hard choices. If I or my guys fall, i don't want to respawn in the next hex, I want to respawn way back at Marchmont. Then I must decide, is the trip again worth it?
I don't want systems that limit my ability to play a certain way, I just want a system that shines an honest value on life. What is the point in a revolving door of deaths and respawns over a tower? If you kill me or I you, that should have some more meaning, or impact if you prefer. Why should we accept instant gratification when the journey to the destination should be a part of the experience.
The dead will rise, bent, not broken at their home settlement. Reborn to once again give purpose and value to their character, to their lives. Since when can we not cherish living, and why must we only anticipate death. Why can't we look up at the rising sun and say to ourselves, "Yes, I have survived to see another day!"
Golarion is dangerous, the lore, the history tell us that. But even in chaos there is meaning. I don't want wild unstoppable roaming bandits, and I argue they would exist only if the masses allow them to. Lets think about it, can bandits exist in the end game...sure, but only of limited size and scale because the mechanics will caste them aside. They will be hard pressed when organized nations move their armies in and destroy their base of operations. Evil nations will exist, but they will not necessarily be bandits, and if organized will be weighed down by politics.....and eventually, war will erupt, oh the beauty of war. Where the true meaning of life is unveiled and challenged.
So I put aside the eternal debate and choose to believe my life has value. Is it time to wise up? To awaken from the coma of theme park, button smashing MMOs and realize that yes, a life can and should matter? Golarion is a zoo full of deadly creatures, but a fire keeps the wolves away, a holy cross keeps the vampires away, and yes, even your group of gatherers with pitchforks can indeed keep a couple of bandits away. And should you happen to fall that night, know that the fading star above your dying gaze is giving way to a new dawn, where once gain you will put value into living.
Do not lose hope, nor despair over failure, for the days you survive shall out number those of which you do not. And when it seems too much to move forward, let your buddy, or company pick you up, dust you off and carry you just a little bit further. For at the end of the line, is the end game.
Killing isn't murder when nobody stays dead. I've already died more times than I can count (maybe nine) just fighting NPCs.
A life is without value for us. Life itself is as precious as ever, but there's a problem right now with overstocking.
I think maybe Pharasma pulled a Washington or something? I dunno.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I find myself at the other end of the value spectrum. I can't imagine thinking that a character's life in the game holds any meaning aside from what it builds. Dying was barely the briefest of inconveniences in alpha until gear decay entered play, and even then only a mild inconvenience though into EE until husks entered play.
A guaranteed endless supply of life pretty much ensures that life itself has no value. The only thing that is ever lost when a character is killed is the time we've invested in it that is lost.
The XP: Preserved. The Feats: Preserved. The Skills: Preserved. Nothing is lost, except durability, what is destroyed or left behind on the body that I can't recover, and constructs that are destroyed. A bandit can kill the unequipped, unencumbered body a hundred times and it bothers me only if I have to spend time getting back to where I was.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Soul Binding, Gushers, and PoIs, I believe fixes a lot of what you are contemplating, Atheory.
@Cal
On your end of the spectrum, what if when you died, what if your body lost durability? What if every time you died, you took a wound (as in 5% of your max health lost), and lost your highest level abilities for X amount of time. Coming back from death should be a bit more taxing on your body and soul.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have no concerns about the mechanic as it exists, I'm simply reporting how I feel about them in response to another person's thoughts. I place no value on things that don't cost me anything when taken.
For me, the way PFO is played right now, stuff has value, life is meaningless. This difference of opinion is the source of much friction.
For me, the way PFO is played right now, stuff has value, life is meaningless. This difference of opinion is the source of much friction.
I tend to feel the source of friction comes from a differing capacity for players to handle the loss (whether of stuff or life).
I suspect that people coming from EVE handle loss of stuff fairly well, where HTFU is the mantra.
Other players not coming from that background may not be so well equipped (or conditioned?) to expect and cope with loss of material or life to another player.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would concur with Cal's position. Death, at this time, is largely meaningless from my perspective in the River Kingdoms. I don't care if I've died 1,000 times, or if someone has more kills than me. Neither data point provides any motivation at all in how I play the game. Loss of resources and equipment durability at least has some measurable impact. And both get around to the actual valuable commodity in the game--time. This is indeed one of the reasons I see little point in conflict at present. Resources are plentiful. If you want something, I can pretty much guarantee you a greater return on your time by trading with me rather than by killing me. Hours to traipse across the country-side, hoping to find a juicy target? Meh, tell me what you want and I'll likely bring it to your door in far less time, and probably in trade for a resource you don't need. You'll get no glory from killing me (it's not that hard after all), resources are destroyed in the process, and overall the time invested is far and away less well utilized.
I took this as an opportunity to express philosophies
As was I. I thought I tried really hard here to write my comment in a way to show I was just expressing my own opinion and my personal perception of the issue.
"I tend to feel"
"I suspect that"
"may not be"
I don't think it is egregious to suggest that some people handle setbacks in games better than others.
You could look at how different people react when their base gets blown up by creepers in Minecraft, and make a similar comparison.
It wasn't meant as a personal attack, it was an observation of people in general, and how those differences in people might create the kind of friction we are having in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think it is egregious to suggest that some people handle setbacks in games better than others.
I was one of those players who potentially would have been a care bear and avoided PVP altogether. Ironically it was months of reading Nihimon and Bluddwolf snipe at each other on a wide range of subjects that I learned of concepts such as "risk vs. reward", "everything is PVP", "it's only about the ISK (coin)" and "the only thing of real value is your time", that have put me in a proper mindset to truly understand and enjoy this game. :)
Yeah, watching all the bickering really gets you in the mood to break some heads.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Atheory, you would have LOVED playing in Neverwinter Nights ALFA server ... it was permadeath
My PC lived 3 real life years and was an 11th level cleric of Tiamat
you played like you would if YOU were the character and not just some random pixels that could respawn
so we want to talk about how this game is grouping, play a permadeath NWN server and solo was asking for trouble
you just didn't stroll into a cave "to see what was in there" LOL
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am putting words to screen, more for my own purpose for I've not written anything for myself in a couple weeks now. So now I abuse paizo forums with my thoughts, and unfortunately you the reader as well. I bow in apology.
There is obviously an inherent struggle with the eternal debate in balancing pvp vs pve and I've little desire to champion one or the other on their own merits. I believe the title "sand Box MMO" immediately and without reservation, automatically combines the two terms PVE and PVP. While there may be an argument with some example out there that could prove me wrong, for the sake of treating PFO only in the context I've laid out, it should leave no illusions to what can be expected in PFO.
Having said that, the next jump forward will revolve around the mechanisms in game that will work to balance the two. But, I am not here to discuss what those will or should be. Instead, I'd like to focus on the idea of "What is the value of a life?".
Stepping away from the eternal debate, I choose to focus on my character's life. What is its value to me? To the world? And in answering these, it tells me not only where the game is, where it's going, but of my own enjoyment in it. Meaningful content does not exist without value and all value derives from life.
Be it the dedicated role-player, hardcore gatherer or the casual team that logs in on a Saturday night to take on an escalation, there should be an intrinsic value to you, which is your life. No one logs on in the hopes of dying, sure they may want to kill other characters, but they never want to die themselves. This shows some value of life. And we can expand upon it, in theory.
When we look at the end game, what do you see? I see a collection of companies working together to accomplish things. That involves social relationships and I believe this is at the heart of this games design. Under this umbrella lets revisit the value of life. Settlements will need supplies, how they get them encompasses all of the intended Open Sand Box...
I agree. I think you should respawn at a chosen holy site in town. I also think that before you re spawn you should have to wander a randomized(so its a little different every time) maze in some quasi plane searching for a voice that calls you back to the world of the living.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Soul Binding, Gushers, and PoIs, I believe fixes a lot of what you are contemplating, Atheory.
@Cal
On your end of the spectrum, what if when you died, what if your body lost durability? What if every time you died, you took a wound (as in 5% of your max health lost), and lost your highest level abilities for X amount of time. Coming back from death should be a bit more taxing on your body and soul.
Good thought a HP and stamina penalty for an hour or so.