Goblin Squad Member
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It is on the High Priority list.
No more spamming Shadowblast or Energetic Field, or wasting arrows on that already dead corpse because you pushed that hotkey too many times.
Luckily, several AE-cantrips are going on a cool-down soon, so we will already learn to pace those attacks more.
About the cost of ammo:
Mage:
The simplest +0 Charge that an Artificer can make (Disciple's Simple Charge) will cost him for a stack of 100:
- 15 Esoteric Essence
- 10 Ordered Essence
- 5 Antithesis Essence
- 3 Lesser Vital Gems (Onyx and Bloodstones)
- 3 lesser Numinous gems (Moonstones! and Pearls)
This cost goes up for the higher level charges (Anarchic Charge, Axiomatic Charge, Holy Charge and Unholy Charge), and goes up considerably more if you decide to make +1 to +3 versions of them.
It has been said that the current powerlevel of a cantrip is based on a +0 charge, so you will not be going back in power by using the simplest ones.
Archer:
100 simple +0 Steel Bodkin Arrows will cost a Bowyer:
- 4 Iron Ore
- 4 Coal
- 10 yew logs
Do you think these costs are balanced? For me personally, the arrow costs are more workable: Ordered Essence and Moonstones are a bit of a hurdle.
How are you planning your "Ammo-economy"?
Will Expendables become more popular?
Anybody ready for this? :)
I wonder how many arrows you could put in a Leather Quiver. More ++ is more arrows? I hope so, I made a +3 for my Bowyer Achievement!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Expectation: Wizards will rely more on expendables than before. People will learn their power and the game balance will be put in better perspective. Likewise, all casters will be more reliant on BUFFS than attempting to wreak havoc with spells when farming mobs. The advantage of having feat training in Maces for clerics will become obvious. Longbow farming T2s will switch to Spear farming.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with your expectations, exept that I do not understand your Spear comment. Why would someone who is used to picking off targest with Ranged attacks switch to a Melee role? Or is the 4 meter melee range good for kiting? Would still be a completely different way of fighting though.
Also, the stationary bow attacks are supposed to be a temp measure untill ammo gets in, so I expect some more kiting with longbows too. I never kited before though, I am not really a fan of it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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First things first: They should not bring in ammunition until they have fixed other things:
As a rogue, if they are going to make me manage the use of my primary weapon, they need to have fixed the other rogue features so they work properly first, so I do the damage I am supposed to do.
If I am going to have to carry 200 arrows, they need to sort out gear that can improve encumbrance (quivers, packs)
Arrow costs look about right. Any archer should be able to be self-sufficient in arrows without having to take any crafting/refining skills as I think everything can be made with level 0 free recipes.
I'm already stocking up on yew, iron and coal.
My plan for hunting is to go out with a stack of 200 arrows on me and have more in the queue ready to pop into my inventory when they are made, so I shouldn't have to keep running back to restock with arrows. With a T2 bow I already need fewer arrows, since I 1 shot more mobs than I did with a T1 bow. I might need to melee a bit more, and I will definitely not be spamming Quick Shot and Multi-shot the way I have been
I hope mobs start dropping arrows. I would expect anything that shoots arrows at me to drop arrows.
Costs for charges look a bit high.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm mostly wondering what the (mechanical) difference is between a Bodkin arrow and a Broadhead arrow, and what a +3 arrow does over a +0 arrow.
It will be more damage, there are several quotes from Stephen about that. As far as I know that is the only benefit, so no ++ to Critical, or attack value and such.
However, I do expect that stuff like Silvered arrows will do more damage to mobs that are vulnerable to them, once materials-based creature resistance gets implemented.
Quote from Stephen:
Some players will carry alternate weapons in their inventory which statistically get used up five times as fast as threaded gear (since they're getting destroyed 1/4 of the time instead of after 20 deaths). This may become more common once we have materials-based creature resistance in (so you might have backup weapons with certain keywords) and enchanting.
Since we do not get "Silvered" bows of any kind, I am expecting it will be the the arrow-type that cause the extra damage to these creatures.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It depends what you mean by "perk up".
What's the cost of 100 +0 arrows going to be, given that they take 18 (reasonably common) raw materials to make?
I visit Rathglen and Marchmont auction houses frequently. I see raw materials (I only look for specfic ones) priced between 5c and ~90c each.
I base the price of a crafted item that I sell on the maximum price I will pay for raw materials multiplied by the number of raw materials it takes to make it.
So, if people insist on putting raw materials on the AH at 90c, the cost of 100 arrows would be 17s (80c profit).
Even if raw materials came down to an average of 25c each, the cost of 100 arrows would be 5s (50c profit).
So, demand for goods should be pushing the price of raw materials up, but does anyone want to pay that price for the crafted item?
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Goblin Squad Member
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When I see the amount of copper you can earn with killing tier 1 mobs, I would say that 5-10 copper is a doable price for a single common resource.
I never understood the folks who put up region-common resources for anything above 20-25 copper. I never buy anything for more then 10-12 copper. When they are resources that are rare to the area and hard to find in the AH, I am willing to go to maybe 20-25 copper, if I specifically want to make something that needs it. Hemp comes to mind, I never seem to find this where I am located(Callambea)
10 copper per resource would put the price of 100 arrows at 2 silver. Not sure how long you will do with 100 arrows but I think if you kill wisely, you should be able to make back those 2 silver in pure coin loot, and then off course you get all the rest(recipes, the useless tokens and salvage).
You would probably have to kill orange/yellow mobs for that as a Tier 1 Bowyer. Goblins and bandits may not cut it to loot 200 copper with 100 arrows. Then again, if you harvest a bit on the side, you *easily* earn back those 100 arrows.
Do purple mobs drop a lot more coin? Never killed those.
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Goblin Squad Member
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First things first: They should not bring in ammunition until they have fixed other things:
As a rogue, if they are going to make me manage the use of my primary weapon, they need to have fixed the other rogue features so they work properly first, so I do the damage I am supposed to do.
If I am going to have to carry 200 arrows, they need to sort out gear that can improve encumbrance (quivers, packs)
Arrow costs look about right. Any archer should be able to be self-sufficient in arrows without having to take any crafting/refining skills as I think everything can be made with level 0 free recipes.
I agree with you, but I would add one more and make a correction.
They need to fix it where you keep attacking a downed enemy! I don't mind with no ammo, if I'm paying for those shots I will be pissed at wasting arrows on corpses.
The correction; You attacks will use the worse of your weapon keywords and ammo keywords. So using T1 +0 ammo will be wasting your T2 bow
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, I was going to make 2000 T1 arrows but I think I am going to leave it at 1000 now and see how fast I can get that T2 bow.
I hope we will see some sustained demand for T1 arrows though. You'd almost think that Tier 1 lasts a bit too short.... 2 months and everyone is sitting comfortably within tier 2. Low end but still.
But that was the intention, I believe.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If that's the case, I can see an account coming up for sale in 3 month's time.
The correction; You attacks will use the worse of your weapon keywords and ammo keywords. So using T1 +0 ammo will be wasting your T2 bow
Important quote from Stephen:
The intent is for higher plus arrows to not be required for higher plus bows. Instead, the plus on the arrow is a base damage bonus. +5 arrows essentially act like another minor keyword for damage.
You will need higher tier ammo for higher tier bows (or, more likely, shooting lower tier ammo will downgrade the attack to the lower tier, including probably dropping major keywords as well).
We may add small batches of +0 ammo to creature loot tables once ammo is working, but not so much that you can kill using only ranged attacks indefinitely with only the ammo provided from your kills.
I guess they simply want us to use all those arrows that can be made in Tier 2 and 3.
However, since Arrows use a simple system of "More ++ adds a little more damage", why not take this system across all tiers?
So, using increments of 3:
T1, +0 arrow: no extra damage to an attack
T1, +1 arrow: +3 damage
T1, +2 arrow: +6 damage
....
T2, +0 arrow: +18 damage
T2, +1 arrow: +21 damage
....
T3, +0 arrow: +33 damage
T3, +1 arrow: +36 damage
Off course you would have to make it so that you can not use T2 arrows with a T1 bow. But you *can* use T1 arrows with a T2 bow.
To prevent a damage-peak when you hit a new tier with your bow, you could drop the starting damage in a new tier a bit, so that someone using a T1 bow with +5 T1 arrows, does more damage then someone using a T2 bow with +0 T2 arrows. Maybe the T2 guy still does more damage, but that would mostly be because he is using a T2 bow now.
So a T2, +0 arrow would start at doing +9 damage, while the T1, +5 arrow would do +15 damage.
So like this:
T1, +0 arrow: no extra damage
T1, +1 arrow: +3 damage
T1, +2 arrow: +6 damage
T1, +3 arrow: +9 damage
T1, +4 arrow: +12 damage
T1, +5 arrow: +15 damage
-------------------------
T2, +0 arrow: +9 damage
T2, +1 arrow: +12 damage
T2, +2 arrow: +15 damage
T2, +3 arrow: +18 damage
T2, +4 arrow: +21 damage
T2, +5 arrow: +24 damage
--------------------------
T3, +0 arrow: +18 damage
T3, +1 arrow: +21 damage
T3, +2 arrow: +24 damage
T3, +3 arrow: +27 damage
T3, +4 arrow: +30 damage
T3, +5 arrow: +33 damage
This would put the added damage of a +3 Arrow on the same level as the +0 arrow of the next Tier.
Is this possible?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry Tyncale, I edited my post, but the sentiment still stands.
A T2 bow with a +0 arrow will do what? The same as a T1 +3 bow with a +0 arrow?
T2 arrows are going to be expensive. The xp outlay to use a T2 bow (for 6 feats) is 11.5 days. Who in their right mind is going to waste that much xp for the rare event when it is worth firing a T2 arrow? Is not as if it even makes sense to carry T2 arrows just in case that rare event occurs, due to the chance of losing them on death.
I have 1 bow feat trained to lvl 4. I'm not going to waste any more xp on this. Since my character is primarily an archer, it is pretty much gimped. I won't be paying $15 a month for a gimped character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am not sure if we are understanding eachother. I am a proponent for people being able to use T1 arrows on a higher tier Bow.
I added a little to my post, not sure if you saw that.
I do not think T2 arrows are going to be any more expensive then T1's after a while. They use about the same amount of resources, just one tier higher. I am already piling up tier 2 resources with 7 in Scavenger.
I also do not understand your last sentence. Using a T2 Bow will add a lot of extra damage in any case, even using +0 arrows. The arrows just add Bonus damage if you put more plusses on the arrows.
My proposal is to make T1 arrows not obsolete for T2 and T3 Bow users, without the added bonus damage sky-rocketing.
But it could be that other arguments are behind this, for instance that they do not want High Level players to buy up all the T1 arrows so that newbies have nothing. I do not see that happening since it is much cheaper to make a T2, +1 arrow then a T1, +4 arrow, imo(same added Bonus damage).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am going with what Stephen said, no reference to what you said. You need a T2 arrow to get the effect of a T2 bow. Without a T2 arrow, you may as well not have a T2 bow. Without a T2 bow there is no reason to train bow feats above level 3. Without any point in training bow feats above level 3, characters who primarily use bows are gimped.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My question is, where will the quiver/charge gem/whatever be slotted? If they expect us to carry around the ammo in our inventory and then lose a quarter of it every time we die, it's going to cause some problems.
Last I heard, you'd slot the Ammo Container in your off-hand weapon slot. The Ammo Container will hold a certain amount of Ammo, and that will almost certainly stay with you when you die.
It'll be interesting to see whether folks choose to only go out with the Ammo in their Ammo Container and return to the bank often, or go out with enough spare Ammo in their Inventory to support an extending outing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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T2 arrows are going to be expensive. The xp outlay to use a T2 bow (for 6 feats) is 11.5 days. Who in their right mind is going to waste that much xp for the rare event when it is worth firing a T2 arrow? Is not as if it even makes sense to carry T2 arrows just in case that rare event occurs, due to the chance of losing them on death.
The T2 arrows use Dwarven Steel Blanks and Maple Shafts. Both of those will be readily available; A basic gatherer can get those at rank 7 in the appropriate gathering skills.
The T2 Bow and the T2 Arrows are a package deal. They will be very useful, almost required, to deal with T2 armors in PvP. The T1 bows and arrows will likely still be carried by PvE crews clearing low-end escalations, but even those PvEers will likely have the skills to use a better bow in base defense.
I anticipate the arrows will be very, very common, and not particularly expensive.
@Ravenlute: quiver/charge gem is slotted in off-hand, opposite bow/focus/wand.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Tyncale I think the first three sentences of your quote from Stephen indicate they already intend to work more like you said than what I said. I hope so for the same reasons as Kradlum, my main is a ranger (or trying to be).
No, those first sentences just mean that you do not have to have a +3 bow to use +3 arrows.
You have a simple +0 bow, and use +5 arrows with it and then get the bonus damage.
But what Stephen then sais, is indeed Kradlums biggest complaint: if you do not use T2 arrows, you may as well keep using your T1 bow, since your T2 bow will lose its edge if you sue it with T1 arrows.
I agree with Kradlum that the system Stephen is implementing, is restricting: I would like to have the option to keep using T1 arrows with my T2 bow. My proposal is to make sure that using T2 arrows still gives you even more damage, but using T1 arrows is still a good option.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wow, that sucks hard: give up your second role(weapon) because you have to use it for a container? I sure hope they change that.
You misunderstand. One weapon set will consist of a bow in the main hand and a quiver in the offhand, just like having a sword and shield or a rapier and dagger. Your alternate weapon set can be whatever you'd like it to be, such as a cleric focus paired with a charge gem, or a two handed greatclub.
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Goblin Squad Member
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First things first: They should not bring in ammunition until they have fixed other things:
As a rogue, if they are going to make me manage the use of my primary weapon, they need to have fixed the other rogue features so they work properly first, so I do the damage I am supposed to do.
If I am going to have to carry 200 arrows, they need to sort out gear that can improve encumbrance (quivers, packs)
Are you aware that currently we have x2 base carrying capacity because the containers aren't in game.
I don't think we will become capable to carry more when the containers become available, unless there are T2 or T3 containers.|
Goblin Squad Member
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Which is crap b/c the capacity is already miserably low. I mean only 110Lbs and the character can't move? what are they twigs?
110 encumbrance units might be pounds, or might be kilos, or might be golarion thircomorpoglichmans. The fact that a strong person can can't move with 110 encumbrance pretty much implies that it isn't pounds.
(edit: In fact, the fact that armour has a different encumbrance than worn than when carried guarantees that it isn't about weight at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I said in my original expectations, Longbow farming will switch to Spear farming. Spears have an even better exploit than the Longbow and don't cost any money to use. I think ammo counts will make spells and bows a PVP or boss thing. For casual farming of mobs, depend on heavy armored tanks wielding huge melee weapons. That is what I think their plan has been all along because the AI doesn't support ranged combat well, as evident by the fact that we can exploit it easily and rack in the T2/T3 loot this early. The devs want the mobs to have a chance of fighting back and that means getting up close and personal with them while minimizing the effectiveness of ranged kiting.
Casters and archers will still be invaluable in PVP combat, but not as an everyday tool for mass mob murder.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am pretty sure that there are quotes from devs where it is calculated that you can get Encumbrance all the way up to 200, if you totally focus on it. So giving up slots to use containers, Encumbrance feat, Strongback and possibly enchantments.
Here is the quote: Encumbrance
@ Guurzak Yes, I misread, deleted my post soon afterwards but you guys are too fast. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I said in my original expectations, Longbow farming will switch to Spear farming. Spears have an even better exploit than the Longbow and don't cost any money to use. I think ammo counts will make spells and bows a PVP or boss thing. For casual farming of mobs, depend on heavy armored tanks wielding huge melee weapons. That is what I think their plan has been all along because the AI doesn't support ranged combat well, as evident by the fact that we can exploit it easily and rack in the T2/T3 loot this early. The devs want the mobs to have a chance of fighting back and that means getting up close and personal with them while minimizing the effectiveness of ranged kiting.
Casters and archers will still be invaluable in PVP combat, but not as an everyday tool for mass mob murder.
I will admit that I have been eyeing melee-options because of the Ammo-cost, but after some calculations it does not seem too bad. Maybe pick off the toughest mob with your bow and melee the rest: off course this means you have to dedicate XP to both roles.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Which is crap b/c the capacity is already miserably low. I mean only 110Lbs and the character can't move? what are they twigs?110 encumbrance units might be pounds, or might be kilos, or might be golarion thircomorpoglichmans. The fact that a strong person can can't move with 110 encumbrance pretty much implies that it isn't pounds.
(edit: In fact, the fact that armour has a different encumbrance than worn than when carried guarantees that it isn't about weight at all.
Right. Encumbrance is about the awkwardness of carrying things, not the weight of the things. If this guy could take those presents out of their boxes and stuff them in a backpack, he could carry them much less awkwardly, and carry a lot more of them. The encumbrance value of boxed sweaters and socks is much higher than the encumbrance value of tightly rolled clothing, and a backpack helps you carry more stuff without increasing your physical strength at all.
By the same token, the encumbrance of an iron bar is lower than that of a rough chunk of iron ore, even if the ore was fairly pure and the weight hasn't changed much.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I said in my original expectations, Longbow farming will switch to Spear farming. Spears have an even better exploit than the Longbow and don't cost any money to use. I think ammo counts will make spells and bows a PVP or boss thing. For casual farming of mobs, depend on heavy armored tanks wielding huge melee weapons. That is what I think their plan has been all along because the AI doesn't support ranged combat well, as evident by the fact that we can exploit it easily and rack in the T2/T3 loot this early. The devs want the mobs to have a chance of fighting back and that means getting up close and personal with them while minimizing the effectiveness of ranged kiting.
Casters and archers will still be invaluable in PVP combat, but not as an everyday tool for mass mob murder.
So how does that work for people in light armour or robes?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So how does that work for people in light armour or robes?Unbreakable 4 is 8 hours of XP.
Sorry, but I'm not liking this answer very much. The question is "What about people in lighter armor?" Your answer is "It doesn't take long to learn to use heavy armor." There have to be some valid reasons to use the lighter armors, and valid ways to survive using them, or GW might as well not have wasted time creating them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not liking this answer very much. The question is "What about people in lighter armor?" Your answer is "It doesn't take long to learn to use heavy armor." There have to be some valid reasons to use the lighter armors, and valid ways to survive using them, or GW might as well not have wasted time creating them.So how does that work for people in light armour or robes?Unbreakable 4 is 8 hours of XP.
There's also the issue of arcane attack penalties and lower effect power with arcane attacks when using heavy armor. Those aren't yet implemented, but they make the Unbreakable idea less viable. Also, the loss of dedication bonuses.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Light armor: Dart in, do some serious damage (once rogue feature feats are fixed), dart back out before you get pummeled.
Yup. Let the medium or heavy armored guy go in first to get targeted, then the lights go in with their fancy cutthroat feat and supporting reactives. They evade back out if they get targeted. It's not rocket surgery.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Light armor: Dart in, do some serious damage (once rogue feature feats are fixed), dart back out before you get pummeled.Yup. Let the medium or heavy armored guy go in first to get targeted, then the lights go in with their fancy cutthroat feat and supporting reactives. They evade back out if they get targeted. It's not rocket surgery.
I'm sorry, Mrs. MX, but your husband has a faulty guidance system. He's going to need rocket surgery.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Light armor: Dart in, do some serious damage (once rogue feature feats are fixed), dart back out before you get pummeled.Yup. Let the medium or heavy armored guy go in first to get targeted, then the lights go in with their fancy cutthroat feat and supporting reactives. They evade back out if they get targeted. It's not rocket surgery.
This would work better if monsters didn't randomly target everyone in the party, but it should still work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's also the issue of arcane attack penalties and lower effect power with arcane attacks when using heavy armor. Those aren't yet implemented, but they make the Unbreakable idea less viable. Also, the loss of dedication bonuses.
The context of the conversation is that the casters aren't casting because it's too expensive, so they need to switch to melee where they're squishy.
If arcane failure is an issue then this whole line of conversation is inapplicable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's also the issue of arcane attack penalties and lower effect power with arcane attacks when using heavy armor. Those aren't yet implemented, but they make the Unbreakable idea less viable. Also, the loss of dedication bonuses.The context of the conversation is that the casters aren't casting because it's too expensive, so they need to switch to melee where they're squishy.
If arcane failure is an issue then this whole line of conversation is inapplicable.
So then why did you propose using Unbreakable in response to Kradlum's question of people who currently use light or cloth? The only people who use cloth are crafters and wizards. Suggesting a simple change to Unbreakable implies just changing armor, meaning those wizards would stick with wands/staves.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This would work better if monsters didn't randomly target everyone in the party, but it should still work.Light armor: Dart in, do some serious damage (once rogue feature feats are fixed), dart back out before you get pummeled.Yup. Let the medium or heavy armored guy go in first to get targeted, then the lights go in with their fancy cutthroat feat and supporting reactives. They evade back out if they get targeted. It's not rocket surgery.
The key is relying on multiple tanks instead of one. You can also usually pick up and control most of the 'stray' mobs with a single hit. The pull is by far the hardest part to control (especially some of the larger clusters) but once you get the hang of it it's not too bad. We were knocking out most clusters of a high % escalation with two tanky characters and a priest. We only had to kite some of the larger ogre packs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So then why did you propose using Unbreakable in response to Kradlum's question of people who currently use light or cloth?
If the wizards are casting cantrips, then they don't need to change armor and none of this discussion applies.
If the wizards switch to melee weapons because of charge consumption, they should also change their armor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If "wear heavy armor" is always the solution, then we might as well not have cloth, light and medium armor in the game.
Note: I've already moved part way along this path. My combat character uses a rogue feature feat and rogue reactive feats, but the Archer armor feat and medium armor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So then why did you propose using Unbreakable in response to Kradlum's question of people who currently use light or cloth?If the wizards are casting cantrips, then they don't need to change armor and none of this discussion applies.
If the wizards switch to melee weapons because of charge consumption, they should also change their armor.
We're also talking about situations in which archers and casters conserve arrows and charges by switching between ranged and melee attacks during a single fight. For instance, a rogue might open fire with arrows against the toughest monster in a group, then switch to a rapier to help the fighters clean up the less powerful monsters. In this case, changing armor is not an option.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So then why did you propose using Unbreakable in response to Kradlum's question of people who currently use light or cloth?If the wizards are casting cantrips, then they don't need to change armor and none of this discussion applies.
If the wizards switch to melee weapons because of charge consumption, they should also change their armor.
I think this is a case of misunderstanding eachother.
A wizard who switches into heavy armor and uses melee weapons doesn't really strike me as much of a wizard.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So then why did you propose using Unbreakable in response to Kradlum's question of people who currently use light or cloth?If the wizards are casting cantrips, then they don't need to change armor and none of this discussion applies.
If the wizards switch to melee weapons because of charge consumption, they should also change their armor.
I think this is a case of misunderstanding eachother.
A wizard who switches into heavy armor and uses melee weapons doesn't really strike me as much of a wizard.
On the other hand, a wizard who runs low on casting ability (memorized spells/charges) and pulls his trusty dagger out of a sheath hanging from his robes is continuing a long and distinguished tradition.
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Goblin Squad Member
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a wizard who runs low on casting ability (memorized spells/charges) and pulls out his trusty dagger is continuing a long and distinguished tradition.
That wizard taking a nice restful nap in a pool of his own blood is part of the same long and distinguished tradition.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem as I see it is, if people keep looking at gathering as an easy way to make money, and the crafters continue to pay over the odds for their raw mats the economy will grind to a halt once these ammo's go live.
Crafters are the ones who need to unite and say NO to the ludicrous prices people think they can get from the raw mats.
Raw mats should be 1-10cp only and maybe 50% more if your paying for them after refining.