Aid Allies PFS Ruling


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Aid Allies

Spoiler:
Aid Allies (Ex)

At 2nd level, whenever an order of the dragon cavalier uses the aid another action to assist one of his allies, the ally receives a +3 bonus to his armor class, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. At 8th level, and every six levels thereafter, this bonus increases by an additional +1.


My question is does this stack with or replace the bonus gained from that granted by the Aid Another action?
Aid Another
Spoiler:
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.

You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character's skill check.


This has been asked on the boards several times. I think most notably here. Not to overstate that poster's case but he makes note that in every other instance of giving a bonus to aid another that it states "instead of" but in Aid Allies it does not. Since Pathfinder Society doesn't care about RAI, it only rules with RAW and any errata, etc on the topic, and because the character that this is being considered for would be a PFS character, I would like a PFS ruling. It is also something that is important to know from character creation as traits can only be taken then.

I am new to PFS (in fact, haven't even officially joined yet) so I do not know if there is a place to ask for such a ruling but I figured this would be the best place to start. I could post this in the rules forum but due to the lack of attention it has got there from other posters I didn't think it would go anywhere.

Opinions? Suggestions on getting a ruling?


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PFS has no specific rules regarding "Aid Allies."

It works exactly the same in PFS as in PFRPG.

Your best bet is the rules forum.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The text is quite clear. the ability says someone using an aid another gives a base +3.

From the language of the text it replaces, not stacks with the base +2. It does not say +3 on top of the usual bonus, it declares the +3 as the bonus. (scaling with levels)

Sczarni

You've asked a good question I've never encountered before.

I'll go ahead and flag your post to be moved to the Rules Forum so it can get the attention and answer that it deserves.

Silver Crusade

The situation is rather unclear, especially considering other items like :

Swift Aid (Combat) wrote:

With a quick but harmless swipe, you can aid an ally’s assault.

Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: As a swift action, you can attempt the aid another action, granting your ally either a +1 bonus on his next attack roll or a +1 bonus to his AC.

Normal: Aid another is a standard action.
Quoted material here....

Benevolent wrote:

Price +1 bonus
Aura faint enchantment; CL 5th; Weight —

DESCRIPTION

This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon.

When the wielder of a benevolent weapon uses the aid another action to grant an ally a bonus on attack rolls, he increases the aid another bonus by the enhancement bonus of the weapon.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Magic Arms and Armor, aid; Cost +1 bonus

And of course that halfling trait, funny thing how many animals and pathfinders are adopted by them.^^

I really thing this issue could benefit from a FAQ.

Silver Crusade

All of these things listed in this thread reference the same item: The Aid Another action. All of them are variants of Aid Another, and thus don't stack with each other.

Aid Allies (Ex)
At 2nd level, whenever an order of the dragon cavalier uses the aid another action to assist one of his allies...

Swift Aid (Combat)
... Benefit: As a swift action, you can attempt the aid another action,

Benevolent
When the wielder of a benevolent weapon uses the aid another action to grant an ally a bonus on attack rolls,

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Benevolent armor and weapons increases the bonus granted by the aid another action. The helpful trait, Order of the Dragon's Aid Allies, and the swift aid feat replace the normal +2 bonus of aid another.


To those who are stating that it replaces the bonus normally granted by Aid Another - did you notice how it is missing the phrasing of "instead of" like everything else does? Are you thinking that this is a mistake that goes against the intention of the rule? Or are you purposefully overlooking it? It does not say that it replaces the bonus granted by Aid Another like the other things do.

For the record: my opinion is that Aid Allies stacks with the bonus granted by the Aid Another action specifically because it is missing the wording that everything else has that says you would use this bonus "instead of" the bonus granted by Aid Another.

I believe that Aid Allies is the sole exception to this due to the lack of the "instead of" wording. This seems intentional to me. But before I go and make a character based on this I would rather not have to deal with table variation. As a ruling on this will influence my trait decisions I would need this prior to making the character as it is for PFS play.

While I appreciate the opinions here it is really something that I (and I imagine others) need an official ruling on. Please hit FAQ. And I guess maybe this belongs in the rules forum.

Silver Crusade

It doesn't 'replace' the bonus from aid another, since it -is- aid another.

They are the same thing. Aid Allies is a version of Aid
Another.


Insomuch as using Weapon Focus is another version of an attack, I agree. But that stacks. It is an untyped bonus that you get when performing that action.

I would not say that Weapon Focus IS an attack any more than I would say that Aid Allies IS Aid Another.

Grand Lodge

It doesn't stack. It gives the effect of the action rather succinctly.

"Whenever an OotD cavalier uses aid another, the allies receive +3 AC, attack role, saving throw or skill check."

It doesn't say "replace" anymore than it says "potatoes". It simply doesn't have to, nor require it. It is clear unless you are straining language specifically to interpret something that isn't there. For your interpretation to be correct the phrase is missing "additional" +3 AC,...

Note: I sought this out for my current build as well (Helpful Halfling) and moved along when I realized it wouldn't stack. I wanted it to as well, but it simply doesn't. Understand it doesn't need your interpretation to work as the skill is quite powerful as is when combined with Body Guard.

Grand Lodge

@ Lune: Aid Allies replaces the normal +2 you get for Aid Another, it doesnt stack.

DesolateHarmony wrote:

All of these things listed in this thread reference the same item: The Aid Another action. All of them are variants of Aid Another, and thus don't stack with each other.

Aid Allies (Ex)
At 2nd level, whenever an order of the dragon cavalier uses the aid another action to assist one of his allies...

Swift Aid (Combat)
... Benefit: As a swift action, you can attempt the aid another action,

Benevolent
When the wielder of a benevolent weapon uses the aid another action to grant an ally a bonus on attack rolls,

You are both right and wrong here. Aid Allies and Swift Aid are both versions of Aid Another, and I agree, wouldnt stack. Benevolent is specifically designed to boost Aid Another, which both of the previous abilities use, so it most definitely WOULD stack with either of those.

Also, before someone suggests trying to stack Aid Allies from the Cavalier and the Helpful Halfling bonus to Aid Another, I dont believe those stack either. Both of them change out the flat bonus you give (3 and 4 respectively), instead of saying 'give an additional +1/+2' or something similar to what Benevolent says.

Scarab Sages

Lune wrote:

Insomuch as using Weapon Focus is another version of an attack, I agree. But that stacks. It is an untyped bonus that you get when performing that action.

I would not say that Weapon Focus IS an attack any more than I would say that Aid Allies IS Aid Another.

Weapon Focus isn't an attack. It is focused training in that particular weapon, causing you to be more accurate with said weapon. It is a flat bonus to hit.

As others have stated, these abilities do not stack as the text clearly reads:
whenever an order of the dragon cavalier uses the aid another action to assist one of his allies, the ally receives a +3 bonus

Helpful Halfling would make it +4, and also does not stack with this ability.


@Seth & Grey_Mage: But that isn't all that Aid Allies says. It says, "...the ally receives a +3 bonus". It is an unnamed bonus that comes from a different source. One source being Aid Another, the other source being Aid Allies.

That is the way I see it anyway. I can see both perspectives and originally thought the way you did. But after more carefully reading it and comparing it to other abilities it looks distinctly and purposefully different in that it lacks the "instead of" wording.

If I understand it correctly you do not believe that distinction makes a difference while I believe it is intentional and deliberate. I think it was put there to show that unlike everything else that it is not "instead of". I can see your point of view. Unfortunately it isn't official. I would ask that you hit FAQ so that we can all get an answer. Thank you both for sharing. :)

Shadow Lodge

I would be more inclined to agree with your interpretation if it said "the ally receives an additional +3 bonus". It's more likely that they removed the "instead of ..." wording to save space and fit everything on the page.


WiseWolfOfYoitsu: Likewise one could say that Aid Allies is focused training in that particular combat action, causing you to be more effective at aiding your allies. It is also a flat bonus.

As is the case with all bonuses they stack unless they are of the same type or are from the same source. This is neither. Just like Weapon Focus is an untyped bonus and comes from separate sources.

I do not think we are going to convince eachother here. I can see both sides but I believe they stack. Please hit FAQ so we can get an official answer.


Serum: I would be more inclined to agree with you if this wasn't the only time that they didn't try to save that space that that 2 words take up. That space seems trivial to me. I can't see that as being the reason.

Grand Lodge

Please peruse my earlier point about straining language to meet something you wish were there. AFAIC no FAQ is required (or desired).

Simply put, if you are correct you'd break the game giving out a +7 aid at level 1 between Helpful Halfing and OotD. The only FAQ needed in my opinion is Aid Another Modifiers on Swift Aid, like benevolent armor (I THINK it does) and to a lesser extent HH and OotD (I THINK they don't).

Please understand, if you want to play "grammar police", the Aid Allies is different from "Aid Another". So this means it's not an additional bonus on top of it, it's a different skill altogether. This means:

a) they could stack, but require separate actions (each a standard), and
b) no modifiers from other sources that affect Aid Another like benevolent armor could apply to it.

Your interpretation will not only not have the desired affect, but it could worsen the OotD ability, but the verbage is actually pretty clear IMO.

Edit: They are obviously the same skill.

APG: Whenever an Order of the Dragon uses the Aid Another action...

Cavalier: "I'm going to use Aid Another on the Party Tank's AC"

APG: the ally receives a +3 bonus to his AC,...

GM: The ally gets +3 AC,...

You started this question asking for opinions, then later dismissing all those who disagree with you since we aren't "official". I wish you luck since you have been respectful in your disagreement, but think you could be enjoying an Aid Another Character much sooner without the FAQ. (They don't need it.. Go Team Halfling!)


Grey_Mage: Actually, I started this asking for an official ruling. Please reread my first post. I have dismissed no opinions.

One could make the same assertion that anyone here is "playing grammar police" but I would rather not get into name calling. I think it is uncalled for.

Please feel free to share your opinion like everyone else. I ask that you hit FAQ. If you are not so inclined, do not do it. I hold no grudges just because I disagree. I think all opinions are valid but I am really looking for an official ruling on this as that is the only one that actually matters. It doesn't matter what your opinion or my opinion is. If it is ruled on I am happy to abide by it. I would rather not have to deal with table variation as I have seen both opinions held on this topic.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lune wrote:
To those who are stating that it replaces the bonus normally granted by Aid Another - did you notice how it is missing the phrasing of "in adddition to" like everything else does? Are you thinking that this is a mistake that goes against the intention of the rule? Or are you purposefully overlooking it? It does not say that it adds to the bonus granted by Aid Another like the other things do.

This is an example of how your logic can be used to argue the exact opposite. When choosing between two closely plausible answers go by the one that has to add the least to the original text.

I go by exactly what the text says. It provides an Aid another bonus of +3, scaling every three levels. The Helpful Hafling trait operates the same way save that it is a static bonus that does not scale.


My biggest thing to think that it might be in addition to is that the cavalier's ability can boost saving throws, which as far as I understand you can't do with normal aid allies.

Now if I'm wrong about that, then I believe it would be replacing/overlapping the normal aid another.


LazarX: I disagree and it is for the same reasons previously stated. Helpful (Halfling) trait uses the same language as everything except Aid Allies; it says "instead of". Without having to add any language to the original test of Aid Allies it is a +3 untyped bonus. It comes from an Ex Class Ability (different source). By that logic it should stack for the same reason things like Weapon Focus stack with the attack action it is used with.

Again, I respect your opinion and understand where you are coming from. I thought the same way until I reread it and every other ability that modifies Aid Another and the language they use opposed to the language of Aid Allies. I just came to a different conclusion. I'm backing it up with rules from the same system. We just disagree. ;) I think we do agree in the fact that none of the others would stack (with the exception of Benevolent).

Please hit FAQ so we can get an official ruling on this.


Chess Pwn: You cannot boost saves with Aid Another. That is correct.

Lantern Lodge

Lune wrote:

Opinions? Suggestions on getting a ruling?...

While I appreciate the opinions here it is really something that I (and I imagine others) need an official ruling on...

I do not think we are going to convince each other here...

Those who currently side with your interpretation in this thread:

CessPwn

Those on the fence in this thread:

Sebastian Hirsch
Nefreet

Those who disagree with your interpretation in this thread:

LazarX
DesolateHarmony
Greysector
Grey_Mage
Disturbed1
WiseWolfOfYoitsu
Serum
Evilaustintom

Yes, it never hurts to hit the FAQ. In the meantime, since you are concerned about PFS play, just ask the DM at each of your tables how he wants to run it. From the opinions posted on this forum, I would be prepared for most DMs to say, "It doesn't stack."

As a player of a Dragon Cavalier, I don't believe they stack either. I play with a group of five of us in PFS, all optimized as 'aiders' - using Bodyguard and other tactics to work effectively as a team. While I would love to see those two stack, when I step back from the character and try to look at it impartially (whether the Dragon Cavalier bonuses stack with normal aid another), I believe they do not. While you might hope for a BIT of table variation, I wouldn't expect it.

As an aside...I have a small list of questions that I ask every DM at the start of my game when we play this group, since there are a number of rules that interact together in strange ways. Just clear it up at the beginning of the game, so you know where you stand, and it'll save you a bunch of heartache later on (like, when you're in the middle of combat, and REALLY NEED that bonus for your ally to hit). Discussing it early will also give your DM time to mull it over, and listen to your side of the debate. Once y'all are on the same page, you can move on with things.


evilaustintom: Thank you for the count up. There are several other threads on this issue with opinions on both sides as well if you'd like to count all those?

As I stated in my original post I would rather not have to deal with table variation and would like to avoid wasted trait selection at character creation. I do not yet have a character so I am unbias, I do not have a dog in the race. I would like a ruling so that I know which traits to pick.


If you don't want table variation, then always play with the same GM, or don't build a character based on rules which have these grey areas. It is the nature of the beast. It is why we have GMs.


GM Lamplighter: This is a PFS character. It will likely be played at at least 2 conventions. Multiple GMs is a reality that will have to be faced.

If there is an official ruling then there will be no table variation.

My son wants to play a character who uses Dragon Cavalier. Saying to not play the character is not helpful for me, him or anyone. I am asking for a ruling.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Look, people who are going to hang their arguments around the minuitae of text variation have to keep the following in mind.

Pathfinder is not the work of a single author, never has been. You're going to see differing writing styles between different authors working on different segments of the same topic. So trying to hang your arguments on minor word variation is a specious argument at best.

It's a far more useful and less confusing tool to stick with interpeting the text of the mechanic itself, only going beyond it if there is a major need to do so.

There is no ambiguity within the text of the Aid Allies ability that forces you to go beyond the text mechanic. It says exactly what it does when a dragon cavalier performs the Aid Another action. It starts as a slight effective bonus to the Aid Another action that scales with level. And the bonus is stated quite clearly.

Lantern Lodge

Lune wrote:
My son wants to play a character who uses Dragon Cavalier. Saying to not play the character is not helpful for me, him or anyone...

Here's an idea. Pick up a few extra traits via the Extra Trait feat. There are a few trait options that bump 'aid another', such as Kin Guardian or Battlefield Disciple. Take that along with Adopted (Halfling: Helpful).

You can use the +4 to aid another at least up to 8th level (plus other various buffs). When you hit 8th, reassess. "How many times has my son gotten to use both the +4 from Helpful and the +3 from the class feature?" At 8th level, the two bonuses are the same (albeit you can also aid to saves with the class feature).

If you're not happy with the ratio, then retrain the feat (costing five Prestige Points and a bit of gold) into something else. If it has happened enough that it's worth keeping, then keep it.

I suggest this because you won't get a PFS-specific ruling, and waiting on Paizo to FAQ it...well, I wouldn't hold your breath.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
evilaustintom wrote:
Lune wrote:
My son wants to play a character who uses Dragon Cavalier. Saying to not play the character is not helpful for me, him or anyone...

Here's an idea. Pick up a few extra traits via the Extra Trait feat. There are a few trait options that bump 'aid another', such as Kin Guardian or Battlefield Disciple. Take that along with Adopted (Halfling: Helpful).

You can use the +4 to aid another at least up to 8th level (plus other various buffs). When you hit 8th, reassess. "How many times has my son gotten to use both the +4 from Helpful and the +3 from the class feature?" At 8th level, the two bonuses are the same (albeit you can also aid to saves with the class feature).

If you're not happy with the ratio, then retrain the feat (costing five Prestige Points and a bit of gold) into something else. If it has happened enough that it's worth keeping, then keep it.

I suggest this because you won't get a PFS-specific ruling, and waiting on Paizo to FAQ it...well, I wouldn't hold your breath.

It's not worth the bother. After all, a cavalier isn't going to spend his rounds that often using Aid Another as opposed to actually particpating in combat. If your intention is to stay out of combat, forget about the cavalier and build yourself a bard.


LazarX wrote:
Lune wrote:
To those who are stating that it replaces the bonus normally granted by Aid Another - did you notice how it is missing the phrasing of "in adddition to" like everything else does? Are you thinking that this is a mistake that goes against the intention of the rule? Or are you purposefully overlooking it? It does not say that it adds to the bonus granted by Aid Another like the other things do.

This is an example of how your logic can be used to argue the exact opposite. When choosing between two closely plausible answers go by the one that has to add the least to the original text.

I go by exactly what the text says. It provides an Aid another bonus of +3, scaling every three levels. The Helpful Hafling trait operates the same way save that it is a static bonus that does not scale.

I agree... we should add nothing to the text and interpret it with the words printed. Nowhere is a type of bonus stated, nor does it say to replace anything. It's additive.

The Helpful trait *specifically* states that it replaces the base bonus with a new one. Order of the Dragon does not state this, so it is not replacing anything. The differences in language here are notable and should lead one to conclude that OotD's ability gives a second +3 bonus, separate from that of the aid another check.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
heyyon wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Lune wrote:
To those who are stating that it replaces the bonus normally granted by Aid Another - did you notice how it is missing the phrasing of "in adddition to" like everything else does? Are you thinking that this is a mistake that goes against the intention of the rule? Or are you purposefully overlooking it? It does not say that it adds to the bonus granted by Aid Another like the other things do.

This is an example of how your logic can be used to argue the exact opposite. When choosing between two closely plausible answers go by the one that has to add the least to the original text.

I go by exactly what the text says. It provides an Aid another bonus of +3, scaling every three levels. The Helpful Hafling trait operates the same way save that it is a static bonus that does not scale.

I agree... we should add nothing to the text and interpret it with the words printed. Nowhere is a type of bonus stated, nor does it say to replace anything. It's additive.

The Helpful trait *specifically* states that it replaces the base bonus with a new one. Order of the Dragon does not state this, so it is not replacing anything. The differences in language here are notable and should lead one to conclude that OotD's ability gives a second +3 bonus, separate from that of the aid another check.

The Dragon trait doesn't say it's replacing anything it simply flat out states that the cavalier can do an aid another action and provide a +3 bonus. It does not anywhere say that this is in addition to the normal +2 bonus.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
heyyon wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Lune wrote:
To those who are stating that it replaces the bonus normally granted by Aid Another - did you notice how it is missing the phrasing of "in adddition to" like everything else does? Are you thinking that this is a mistake that goes against the intention of the rule? Or are you purposefully overlooking it? It does not say that it adds to the bonus granted by Aid Another like the other things do.

This is an example of how your logic can be used to argue the exact opposite. When choosing between two closely plausible answers go by the one that has to add the least to the original text.

I go by exactly what the text says. It provides an Aid another bonus of +3, scaling every three levels. The Helpful Hafling trait operates the same way save that it is a static bonus that does not scale.

I agree... we should add nothing to the text and interpret it with the words printed. Nowhere is a type of bonus stated, nor does it say to replace anything. It's additive.

The Helpful trait *specifically* states that it replaces the base bonus with a new one. Order of the Dragon does not state this, so it is not replacing anything. The differences in language here are notable and should lead one to conclude that OotD's ability gives a second +3 bonus, separate from that of the aid another check.

The Dragon trait doesn't say it's replacing anything it simply flat out states that the cavalier can do an aid another action and provide a +3 bonus. It does not anywhere say that this is in addition to the normal +2 bonus, so it's definitely NOT additive.


But the ability says "when cavalier does X do Y" It could be written, "Whenever the cavalier does a full attack action give an ally a +3 to ..."
Now I think the RAI is that it's replacing it. But I definitely can see the argument that it's an additional bonus when they aid. So you could do AC and Saves with it.


Could be... it could be written as a +15 bonus. Could means nothing. What *is* written there is what matters. It doesn't even make mention of the bonus from aid another. It just says that when one succeeds, something *else* happens.

Liberty's Edge

Lune wrote:

@Seth & Grey_Mage: But that isn't all that Aid Allies says. It says, "...the ally receives a +3 bonus". It is an unnamed bonus that comes from a different source. One source being Aid Another, the other source being Aid Allies.

That is the way I see it anyway. I can see both perspectives and originally thought the way you did. But after more carefully reading it and comparing it to other abilities it looks distinctly and purposefully different in that it lacks the "instead of" wording.

If I understand it correctly you do not believe that distinction makes a difference while I believe it is intentional and deliberate. I think it was put there to show that unlike everything else that it is not "instead of". I can see your point of view. Unfortunately it isn't official. I would ask that you hit FAQ so that we can all get an answer. Thank you both for sharing. :)

If we follow your line of reasoning, he is using the Aid allies action, so he can't get the Aid another bonus as he isn't using that action.

You are either using the Aid another action and substituting the bonus as the source is the Aid another action or you are using a different action that is the source of a different bonus and so don't benefit from the Aid another action as you aren't using it.

You can't argue that it is a different action from Aid another and so a different source but that it is the same action as Aid another and so it should grant the aid another bonus.


Lazar, we both agree that nothing about replacing is stated. From that point on, you *cannot* revert to asserting that it replaces the Aid Another bonus. This can *only* happen if something specifically states that it is replacing. "Doesn't say either way... so replace!" isn't how the rules work. The bonus that OotD gives is an untyped bonus separate from the aid another's untyped bonus.

The firmer argument is that it doesn't stack because both are untyped bonuses from the "same source." In this case, it's one action creating both... or so one could allege. I would also disagree with this interpretation as well, but that's neither here nor there. This is the better argument that they do not stack. It's not that one replaces the other, but that both would be untyped bonuses from the same source and so only the highest one is applied.


Use common sense. Does it seem likely that the developers intended for a level 2 character to have an aid another bonus of +5 with no invenstment other than cavalier levels? Probably not.

You can always find a home game if you want to cajole your GM into allowing it, but I'd be hesitant to do so, expecting shennanigans.


Diego Rossi wrote:


If we follow your line of reasoning, he is using the Aid allies action, so he can't get the Aid another bonus as he isn't using that action.

You are either using the Aid another action and substituting the bonus as the source is the Aid another action or you are using a different action that is the source of a different bonus and so don't benefit from the Aid another action as you aren't using it.

You can't argue that it is a different action from Aid another and so a different source but that it is the same action as Aid another and so it should grant the aid another bonus.

Thing is Aid Allies ability activates by using aid another action. So it could be two different things granting bonuses. The aid another action and the aid allies ability.


Paulicus wrote:

Use common sense. Does it seem likely that the developers intended for a level 2 character to have an aid another bonus of +5 with no invenstment other than cavalier levels? Probably not.

You can always find a home game if you want to cajole your GM into allowing it, but I'd be hesitant to do so, expecting shennanigans.

Well you are giving up your actions to boost their actions.


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Indeed. Aid Another is not powerful and handing out a +5 bonus to one check isn't exactly game breaking. In fact, in terms of damage per round, you'd scale back by aiding an ally (even with the +5) over just attacking yourself.


evilaustintom wrote:
If it has happened enough that it's worth keeping, then keep it.
LazarX wrote:
It's not worth the bother. After all, a cavalier isn't going to spend his rounds that often using Aid Another as opposed to actually particpating in combat. If your intention is to stay out of combat, forget about the cavalier and build yourself a bard.

Well, that is flat wrong, LazarX. It all depends on the build. It is possible to build a character to use class abilities differently than most and be effective. If you are curious this is the build plan I was working on. If you focus on it you can be very effective at tanking for your party, zone control and buffing to the point where they do not get hit. Ever.

heyyon: Thank you for stopping by. For those who do not know heyyon had made a build very similar to this a long time ago and has played them very effectively. If anecdotal evidence is anything, I'm sure he can give it.

Diego Rossi: You are adding text where it doesn't belong and making a straw man argument. I didn't say that he would be using the Aid Allies action. There is no such action. There is also no such action as a "Weapon Focus action". Does it matter? No. I never said that there was an Aid Allies action. You are trying to put words in my mouth that I did not say.

Both Weapon Focus and Aid Allies use the same text. Weapon Focus says when you make an attack you get to add a bonus to it. Regardless of what your to-hit bonus is, you add another +1. Does it say that you replace your to-hit bonus with the +1? No. Does it say that it adds the +1 bonus to your existing to hit bonus? No. So why do you assume that it does? It does because the rules state that bonuses stack.

Paulicus: Yes. It does seem that way to me. That seems like about a normal investment for one giving up their action to improve someone else's to me.

I am not trying to "cajole" anyone into anything. I am asking for a damned ruling. There is a pretty big difference there.

I am actually actively trying to avoid an argument with DMs at a table by getting a ruling before hand. I would think this would be an admirable trait, not something to be scoffed at.

Everyone here can argue until they are blue in the face. We are not likely to convince each other of anything. The only thing that will matter will be an official ruling. That is what I am asking for. I didn't come here to argue. I am interested in others opinions but its getting pretty close to name calling and poo throwing.

I would ask everyone here that if you are passionate about the topic enough to argue it that you at least hit FAQ. If you want to justify it as trying to prove me wrong, I could care less. It is the ruling that I am after.


The problem with getting a ruling on this, Lune, is that the people who play it really want two rulings (one on Bodyguard and one on Aid Allies), but the build isn't powerful or popular so the official PF folk aren't entirely interested.

Not long ago, Crane Wing was quickly errata'd because the PFS people were getting a bevy of complaints about the feats trivializing content. I can rest my head knowing that PFS's office has not received a single complaint about the power of Aid Allies or Bodyguard. Not. A. Single. One. Unfortunately, until this build picks up steam (or another piece to outright break the game), the general rule for playing either Aid Allies or Bodyguard will be "expect table variation." Enjoy being a great support character maybe half the time or about as useful as a t$~& on a nun the other half.


I was afraid it would be relegated to the "expect table variation" bit. Ah well. All we can do is post and hit FAQ in the meantime. I am frustrated because I really just want an answer. I am fine with either ruling but knowing which way it works affects choices during character creation. I would rather know than have to accept "expect table variation". :(

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lune wrote:
I was afraid it would be relegated to the "expect table variation" bit. Ah well. All we can do is post and hit FAQ in the meantime. I am frustrated because I really just want an answer. I am fine with either ruling but knowing which way it works affects choices during character creation. I would rather know than have to accept "expect table variation". :(

if that is your concern, then the moral of the story is... don't build your characters on the expectation of highly favorable corner interpretations of a rule. I'd be very surprised if the Aid Allies aspect of the Dragon Cavalier is the central point of any martial character.


LazarX, if you would like you can look at the build. I posted a link to it. I can assure you that it is not a corner interpretation of the rule. As I said there have been several posts about it already. You can feel free to peruse them if you'd like. Or not. I do not care.

I feel like your suggestion isn't really meant to be helpful but rather antagonizing. So, rather than engage you on the topic further I will just say; please hit FAQ, and thank you.


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I'm running a Helpful Halfling cavalier build in PFS (level 6). Here's how it's worked so far:

Add vs. Replace:
All of the GMs in me area agreed that the various "aid another" abilities that say "give the ally a +x bonus" do exactly that: they give a +x bonus, not a +x bonus and a +y bonus, or add the +x bonus to the original +2, etc. This has been a consistent ruling whether the ability specifically says "instead of +2". If a specific number is listed for the bonus, they do not stack.

Any abilities that say "increases the bonus" or "adds to the bonus" or "add an additional +1" (such as the Benevolent enhancement, the Honor Guard cavalier archetype, the Battle Herald, etc.) do exactly that: they increase the bonus, whatever the underlying bonus is. If the ability says "increases the bonus", they do stack.

Taking your actions to aid another
Since I specifically built this character as an aid build, I do this all the time. But where the build really shines is when you pick up Bodyguard: at 6th level, my halfling can bump an adjacent ally's AC by +7, 3 times a round.

Aiding on saving throws
Although the Order of the Dragon specifically calls out saving throws, the base text of Aid Another has this line:
"You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character's skill check."

That text combined with the off-hand mention of saving throws under Order of the Dragon* convinces about 3/4ths of the GMs in our area that you can use Aid Another to aid saving throws, but you must have some logical, viable description of how to do this, and you must have an action available when the save occurs. For reflex saves, for example, my cavalier will often tie a rope to the trap finder and ready an action to yank them out of the way when the trap explodes. (Ongoing effects are easier to work, because you don't need the readied action.)

*Note that the text does not say "An Order of the Dragon cavalier can use the aid another action on saving throws." It just says "When the cavalier uses the Aid Another action on saving throws". The implication is that anyone can use the Aid Another action on saving throws, but the cavalier does it differently. (The other reading, however, is that the cavalier can't use the Aid Another action on saving throws, because the text does not specifically give him that ability: he must come up with that ability somewhere else, then this text applies.)


Wait... why wouldn't you be able to use Aid Allies to aid saving throws? It specifically states that you can. I guess I do not see the counter argument to that. Where do they suggest getting the ability to do that from if not from the ability that says that they can?

I quoted the ability in my first thread. It does say that they can get a bonus to their saves. Read it, its right there. It says, when he uses aid another (not specifying what he uses it for) that they get X bonus to their armor class, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. It is really a "IF Aid Another THEN get +X bonus to armor class, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check."

Honestly, it is as simple as that. This is also why I do not see why Aid Allies wouldn't stack with the bonus given by Aid Another as well. I can understand it with everything else as it says "instead of" but Aid Allies is devoid of such a statement.


My interpretation:

- Helpful is a trait that boost aid another from +2 to +4
- Aid allies is a feat that boost aid another from +2 to +5

A feat in my book should be more powerful than a trait. Especially when taking into consideration the feat: extra traits. This tells us that a feat is worth 2 traits.

Also, if look at order of cockatrice, the same feat slot is dazzling display as a standard action and without pre-requisite. A simple +1 on aid another would not even be close to compare with that.

Now, I would tend to say helpful does not stack with aid allies or swift aid.

However, if you want to go this route, I`d suggest looking at Gloves of Arcane Striking and benevolant armor. Coupled with helpful, can get easily to +6 and up.


Kletus: I was specifically not trying to ask about the traits that add to this bonus as they say "instead of" while Aid Allies is one of the only things - along with Benevolent - that doesn't use that wording. I would agree that those traits wouldn't stack.

The character used for this build would not have a caster level. Otherwise, I agree - Gloves of Arcane Striking would be a great idea. Definitely going to use benevolent. Thank you for the suggestion.

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