Slumber Hex on Swimmers


Rules Questions


Are there any offical rulings on using the Slumber Hex on swimmers or water breathing creatures out of water? Please, not advice on what should be ruled, just actual rulings.

Scarab Sages

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Just so you know, asking for official rulings only is likely to ensure that your question never gets answered.

Since I am not aware of any "official rulings" I'll stop there.

Shadow Lodge

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What's a witch doing near water, anyway? She'll melt!


An 'official ruling' is unnecessary, considering the CRB spells out in explicit detail what happens when a character who is submerged becomes unconscious.

Quote:
Unconscious characters must begin making Constitution checks immediately upon being submerged (or upon becoming unconscious if the character was conscious when submerged). Once she fails one of these checks, she immediately drops to –1 (or loses 1 additional hit point, if her total is below –1). On the following round, she drowns.

This seems extremely harsh and unrealistic to me, but them's the rules.

Edit: I notice you also asked about creatures that breathe water. The rules are not entirely clear whether you treat them exactly the same as air-breathing creatures submerged in water, but that's where I would lean towards if I were required to use the rules as written, as in PFS. Again, very unrealistic, since in real life a water-breathing creature doesn't 'hold its breath' in air but instead gasps air in trying to get enough oxygen past its gills to survive.

Sovereign Court

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Since a vigorous slapping wakes up the victim of magical sleep (spell or hex) it's not unreasonable to say that being submerged in water satisfactorily meets this threshold for waking.

Of course, if one was already asleep (close enough to unconscious for most people) when one's head slipped under the water, there's potentially that first constitution check to avoid instantly going to -1 hit point as the choking victim awakens (or not, as the case may end up being)


There is discussion on whether sleeping is the same as being unconscious, as far as the game goes. A person is actually fairly responsive to the world around them when sleeping, so it's not really equivalent to being out cold despite our typical conceptions.

If they are in an easily awakened state, I'd think it'd be reasonable to at least give them some sort of Fort save to wake up upon being submerged. It could even be argued that the act of being submerged is enough stimulation to awaken a person without even the need for a check under normal circumstances.

Ultimately, there's no firm rules on this, so come up with something reasonable.

Also, I believe the game treats water breathers in air the same as air breathers in water, despite not being reality-accurate as pointed out by the above poster.


deusvult wrote:

Since a vigorous slapping wakes up the victim of magical sleep (spell or hex) it's not unreasonable to say that being submerged in water satisfactorily meets this threshold for waking.

I disagree, if I am swimming, either underwater or swimming on top and I fall asleep I would not think that the sensation of me slipping underwater or just continuing to be underwater would be equivalent to slapping or wounding as there is no application of force or pain (which is what is implied by the slapping or wounding requirements).

That being said slumber is already a pretty great hex so a GM disallowing that use wouldn't be reducing its power by much.

As for straight RAW though, the character would drown unless someone smacked him/her or damaged them even slightly (ala ray of frost).


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Avatar-1 wrote:
What's a witch doing near water, anyway? She'll melt!

Not if she weighs the same as a duck.

Semi-seriously, people pass out and drown in real life, letting it happen in game would be reasonable, if anticlimactic. Me, I'd give them a second save to wake up when they first start choking or something.


Unconscious people are not able to be woken up by "normal" means.

I don't imagine that people that fall asleep in the bath tub drown.

People that fall unconscious absolutely drown all the time.

I believe that not being able to breath would wake someone up more than a slap would. I would rule that the victim wakes up upon slipping under the water.

Another note: people that are face up can sleep while on top of the water.


It works, i'd give the swimmer +4 to resist the hex though because its a similar situation to someone being charmed or dominated into doing something they otherwise wouldn't and that provides the same bonus.


Again, unconscious is not the same as asleep. Different rules apply.


Hmm, I see that in the description of the Helpless condition, 'sleeping' and 'unconscious' are listed separately. So, it seems that the rules for unconscious characters do not necessarily apply. Fair enough.

I guess this is GM discretion.

Shadow Lodge

Amrel wrote:
I disagree, if I am swimming, either underwater or swimming on top and I fall asleep I would not think that the sensation of me slipping underwater or just continuing to be underwater would be equivalent to slapping or wounding as there is no application of force or pain (which is what is implied by the slapping or wounding requirements).

Inhaling water would be painful. The fact that you are making a constitution check implies some shock.

I'm inclined to say that if you succeed at the constitution check the shock of starting to inhale water wakes you up but you can cough it up without damage. If you fail, dropping to -1 HP certainly counts as "wounding" and you will shake of the slumber effect, but unless you have ferocity or diehard you are unconscious at that point and will drown.

Amrel wrote:
As for straight RAW though, the character would drown unless someone smacked him/her or damaged them even slightly (ala ray of frost).

As pointed out above, "sleeping" isn't the same condition as "unconscious" so if we can't substitute "inhaling water" for "physically shaken" we sure can't straight RAW apply the rules for unconscious creatures in water to sleeping ones.


Byakko wrote:


If they are in an easily awakened state, I'd think it'd be reasonable to at least give them some sort of Fort save to wake up upon being submerged.

Just my two cent's, I personally wouldn't rule a player to be in an easily awakened state if you could only wake them up by physically striking them or damaging them. But that's just me. (I know you weren't implying that a character necessarily was in an easily awakened state, but I wanted to use it as an example)


Oh the RAW on swimming is even better because being uncousions, sleeping, or helpless doesn't stop you from getting your swim roll. You can't take actions (that might be debateable but duh), but you can swim roll to stay above water. And you only drown if you go under water, not on the surface. Which sort of makes sense, people seldom die of drowning from falling asleep in the tub, but still leaves something to be desired. That is why I was hoping something had come down from on high.

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