We've heard it all. Sneak attack is unreliable, rogue's have terrible accuracy, fighter's do way better dps.
The goal for this build is a generally stealthy dps machine. I'm ok taking levels of things not rogue but would prefer to not to splash too hard. I will consider the build a success if a less rogue-ish build can not perform in a similar role more effectively.
Alignment]CN (In order to worship thamir gixx)
Race Human +2 dex
Traits
Always Threatening (I'm not sure if you can retrain traits, but possibly retrained with reactionary after we obtain gloves of storing)
Heirloom Weapon (Longbow)
Classes
Level 1-2 Rogue [bandit; sniper]
level 3 Brawler [Snakebite Striker](+1d6 to sneak attack)
level 4 Fighter [Undecided](We needed martial weapon proficiency, and fighter gives us a combat feat, gets retrained at higher levels for rogue)
level 5+ Rogue
Rogue Talents
Snap Shot
Underhanded
Combat Trick
Weapon Training [repeating hand crossbow]
Skill Focuses (from human)
Some knowledge skill
stealth
Feats
Quick Draw (gets retrained once we obtain gloves of storing)
Hellcat Pounce
Eldritch Heritage [arcane][Monkey Familiar]
Rapid Shot
Dampen Presence
Precise Shot (Is there a way to avoid this feat tax?)
Significant Magic Items Ioun Stones
Vibrant Purple Prism (Cracked) 2000 gp
Opalescent White Pyramid (Cracked) [repeating hand crossbow](Gets sold after we obtain Glove of Storing) 1500 gp
Boots of the soft step (Just to make sure I always can sneak) 1000 gp
+1 Sneaking repeating hand crossbow (Replaced with longbow after we obtain Glove of Storing) 8000 gp
Wand of obscuring mist 750 gp
Assassin's Sight (Gets replaced with sniper's goggles at high levels) 5250 gp
Goz Mask 8000 gp
(Potentially an ever smoking bottle if our party is compatible)
How combat works:
During the surprise round our familiar casts Obscuring Mist through the ioun stone and we full attack everybody twice maximizing our sneak attack dice. Repeating hand crossbows can be reloaded by our monkey (jokes on you rapid reload, nobody likes you).
Pros:
Supernova (3*level bonus damage per attack and double attacks during the surprise round ~1.7*level bonus damage after that)
Obscuring mist makes it easy to hit people
Monkey butlers are cool
Cons:
Probably can't afford armor
Is the build worth playing a rogue for? Can I improve it? Would a non rogue do it better? Should I be playing a ninja instead of a rogue?
What level are you starting at? I feel like until you get the Goz Mask, the build doesn't work at all, as you have no way to get your sneak attacks without it.
I'm curious, what is the goal of this character? What parts of the rogue do you enjoy? Is it a sniper type? Because those are really hard to do with sneak attack. If you want a melee style "rogue" my best suggestion is the beastmorph vivisectionist. It gives sneak attack, pounce, basically as many skills w/ a decent intelligence, and extracts for utility.
Your attitude toward them already seems set in stone. Why bother with one if that's how you feel? I'm not trying to be snarky about it; I'm just curious. I've never built a character for DPR, but for flavor and fun, instead.
My motto is build it play it.
The grass is always greener...
You just need a T-shirt that says 'Rogues do it better'.
Follow your heart.
But most importantly, find a group that understands and knows how to utilize the rogue's strengths. It really doesn't matter what feat options or MC dip choices you make as long as Mr. sneaky is always being followed by clanky McPaladin when scouting for intel.
What level are you starting at? I feel like until you get the Goz Mask, the build doesn't work at all, as you have no way to get your sneak attacks without it.
The early levels (Till ~lvl 6) of the build are very difficult, I completely agree. Do you have any suggestions to fix this?
I'd like to get this to work in a PFS game, so level 1 would be the starting point. But for the sake of the argument lets assume level 3.
Kiinyan wrote:
I'm curious, what is the goal of this character? What parts of the rogue do you enjoy? Is it a sniper type? Because those are really hard to do with sneak attack. If you want a melee style "rogue" my best suggestion is the beastmorph vivisectionist. It gives sneak attack, pounce, basically as many skills w/ a decent intelligence, and extracts for utility.
It's not so much that I enjoy or don't enjoy the rogue as it is that I want to find something rogue-ish that a rogue does best.
gamer-printer wrote:
So play an investigator or a slayer depending on which flavor best fits and call yourself a rogue - do you really need to be the class, rogue?
The rogue progresses faster along the sneak attack route, so he has a higher potential for damage than the slayer. Investigators don't get sneak attack at all, so they can't hellcat pounce (Unless you think a dip into rogue from investigator would be more useful?). Vivisectionist's don't get rogue talents, and I feel like rogue talents play a large role in making this build effective at ranged novas.
Oh. my. god. I am seriously sick of everybody dissing the rogue, though I have to say the build you are making might work better as a Ninja or Slayer. Try these feats:
Point-Blank Shot -> Precise Shot -> Far Shot -> Focused Shot -> Sniper Shot
Add in these feats to maximize DPS:
Vital Strike chain, Devastating Strike, Deadly Aim, Improved Precise Shot, and Pinpoint Target (If you choose slayer)
Pair it with these rogue/slayer talents or ninja tricks:
Terrain Mastery, Stealthy Sniper, Vanishing Trick, Assassinate, Powerful Sneak, and Deadly Sneak.
Oh. my. god. I am seriously sick of everybody dissing the rogue, though I have to say the build you are making might work better as a Ninja or Slayer. Try these feats:
Point-Blank Shot -> Precise Shot -> Far Shot -> Focused Shot -> Sniper Shot
Add in these feats to maximize DPS:
Vital Strike chain, Devastating Strike, Deadly Aim, Improved Precise Shot, and Pinpoint Target (If you choose slayer)
Pair it with these rogue/slayer talents or ninja tricks:
Terrain Mastery, Stealthy Sniper, Vanishing Trick, Assassinate, Powerful Sneak, and Deadly Sneak.
I'm really sick of it too! But in order to prove them wrong you have to prove yourself right. Hence trying to make a good rogue in this thread.
Focused Shot doesn't work with vital strike. Focused shot requires its own standard action.
My sources are telling me Sniper Shot is a 3.5 only feat. Where are you getting it from?
None of these ideas work with hellcat pounce (the only reason we're playing rogue really).
Tangential Question:
If I stack multiple abilities that half ranged penalties (for instance the rogue sniper and the slayer sniper), do I subtract .5*the penalty twice (resulting in a 0% penalty), or do I half the penalty and round down twice?
Ok, would you rather be a Bard, Inquisitor, Investigator, Slayer, or Vivisectionist?
If you're not willing to do that, would you at least consider being a Ninja?
If not, I'm not sure if there's a way to help you.
Every time I try to make a rogue build, it ends up being a worse ninja :(
Thats why I've chosen to focus on a sniper rogue, because ninja's can't take the archetype.
I'm not sure this path will work, and if it does work I'm not sure it will outperform a similar sniper, but I'd really like to see them not be a strictly worse everything.
My bad I had forgotten focused shot's wording. But either way with the Slayer's sniper archetype you don't need it nor Sniper Shot (which is compatible with pathfinder)
Tentative Errata wrote:
Replace the Sniper archetype’s Deadly Range ability with “Deadly Sniper (Ex): At 2nd level, when the sniper makes an attack against a target who is within his weapon’s first range increment and completely unaware of his presence, that attack ignores the 30 foot range limit on ranged sneak attacks, and if it is a sneak attack, he adds his sniper level as a bonus on his sneak attack damage roll. After this first attack, the target is aware of the sniper’s presence.”
Slayer is definitely the better option. Rogue is better for the streetwise beguiling thief rather than assassin of any sort.
My bad I had forgotten focused shot's wording. But either way with the Slayer's sniper archetype you don't need it nor Sniper Shot (which is compatible with pathfinder)
Tentative Errata wrote:
Replace the Sniper archetype’s Deadly Range ability with “Deadly Sniper (Ex): At 2nd level, when the sniper makes an attack against a target who is within his weapon’s first range increment and completely unaware of his presence, that attack ignores the 30 foot range limit on ranged sneak attacks, and if it is a sneak attack, he adds his sniper level as a bonus on his sneak attack damage roll. After this first attack, the target is aware of the sniper’s presence.”
Slayer is definitely the better option. Rogue is better for the streetwise beguiling thief rather than assassin of any sort.
Do you think thats worth giving up full attacks/hellcat pounce for?
Every time I try to make a rogue build, it ends up being a worse ninja :(
Thats why I've chosen to focus on a sniper rogue, because ninja's can't take the archetype.
I'm not sure this path will work, and if it does work I'm not sure it will outperform a similar sniper, but I'd really like to see them not be a strictly worse everything.
This is because you use the rogue class to build a ninja, which is wrong. A rogue is NOT a ninja. rogues don't sneak around in the shadows finding targets to prey on with silent kills.
A rogue is the embodiment of a charming party-goer who has a dark side. Rogues rely on bluffing their way out of tough situations, not outright assassinating any who look at them funny. Don't expect a rogue to do what a fighter does, otherwise you will just be disappointed. You say bards make better rogues, how so? Rogues are much more skillful, masters of traps, and make remarkable scouts. A bard just sits in the back tooting his trumpet, even if you made a bard that did more, he still isn't the guy you want to infiltrate and gather information so that your party can become more knowledgeable about the monarchy they are trying to overthrow.
A rogue can do many, many things. Just because they don't excel at combat doesn't make them useless. Their skills lie elsewhere.
My bad I had forgotten focused shot's wording. But either way with the Slayer's sniper archetype you don't need it nor Sniper Shot (which is compatible with pathfinder)
Tentative Errata wrote:
Replace the Sniper archetype’s Deadly Range ability with “Deadly Sniper (Ex): At 2nd level, when the sniper makes an attack against a target who is within his weapon’s first range increment and completely unaware of his presence, that attack ignores the 30 foot range limit on ranged sneak attacks, and if it is a sneak attack, he adds his sniper level as a bonus on his sneak attack damage roll. After this first attack, the target is aware of the sniper’s presence.”
Slayer is definitely the better option. Rogue is better for the streetwise beguiling thief rather than assassin of any sort.
Do you think thats worth giving up full attacks/hellcat pounce for?
It seems weaker.
My bad, I was under the impression you wanted a sniper.
As the definition of Snipe under the Stealth skill. You cannot make full-attacks because your move action is used to stay hidden.
I'm realizing now that since Hellcat Stealth requires 6 ranks (and isn't even a combat feat,) and Hellcat Pounce requires Hellcat Stealth, I don't see how the Hellcat Pounce comes online before level 9.
The rogue progresses faster along the sneak attack route, so he has a higher potential for damage than the slayer. Investigators don't get sneak attack at all, so they can't hellcat pounce (Unless you think a dip into rogue from investigator would be more useful?). Vivisectionist's don't get rogue talents, and I feel like rogue talents play a large role in making this build effective at ranged novas.
I'd take a dip in Swashbuckler to get finesse, then focus on Dex bonuses and remain as investigator for the rest of the levels. I prefer Slayer for for ranged sneak attacks.
Rogues rely on bluffing their way out of tough situations, not outright assassinating any who look at them funny. You say bards make better rogues, how so?
Bards actually use Charisma for their spells, so they usually have better Charisma than a Rogue. Bards have Versatile Performance and Pageant of the Peacock, meaning that, all else equal, a bard will have better Bluff than a Rogue.
Your infiltration and information gathering prompt is actually hilarious, because Pageant of the Peacock gives the Bard a bonus to Disguise checks for appearing to be someone of a higher station (an aristocrat, merchant prince, or even a queen). Gathering information is a Diplomacy roll which Bards are better at because of Versatile Performance and their Charisma focus. If someone suspects them of being an intruder, they can use their Bluff skill on a Knowledge check via Pageant of the Peacock to prove that they're in the know on courtly affairs. Everything about Bards is better at skills than Rogues.
Quote:
A rogue can do many, many things. Just because they don't excel at combat doesn't make them useless. Their skills lie elsewhere.
A Rogue does many many things worse than a Bard, and only does Sneak Attack better. That's fine though, because...
Quote:
A rogue is NOT a ninja. rogues don't sneak around in the shadows finding targets to prey on with silent kills.
Every time I try to make a rogue build, it ends up being a worse ninja :(
Thats why I've chosen to focus on a sniper rogue, because ninja's can't take the archetype.
I'm not sure this path will work, and if it does work I'm not sure it will outperform a similar sniper, but I'd really like to see them not be a strictly worse everything.
This is because you use the rogue class to build a ninja, which is wrong. A rogue is NOT a ninja. rogues don't sneak around in the shadows finding targets to prey on with silent kills.
A rogue is the embodiment of a charming party-goer who has a dark side. Rogues rely on bluffing their way out of tough situations, not outright assassinating any who look at them funny. Don't expect a rogue to do what a fighter does, otherwise you will just be disappointed. You say bards make better rogues, how so? Rogues are much more skillful, masters of traps, and make remarkable scouts. A bard just sits in the back tooting his trumpet, even if you made a bard that did more, he still isn't the guy you want to infiltrate and gather information so that your party can become more knowledgeable about the monarchy they are trying to overthrow.
A rogue can do many, many things. Just because they don't excel at combat doesn't make them useless. Their skills lie elsewhere.
@Big4Panda
What you have said here is regularly brought up in rogue threads.
I would love it if you would prove with numbers please, why a Rogue is > Bard in skills, or scouting.
In reference to traps rogues > all non-archetyped characters only due to their ability to disarm magical traps. However this I would argue is a very small thing due to magical traps moderate rarity and the availability of alternatives such as archaeologist or the trait from mummy's mask.
In short I have found that rogues < Almost all others in combat generally, and rogues < most others out of combat simply due to the fact that most concepts can be covered better mechanically wise by another class.
If this is untrue please feel free to prove me wrong.
P.S. Bards both historically and in mechanics do much more than "Tooting their trumpets in back".
A rogue is the embodiment of a charming party-goer who has a dark side. Rogues rely on bluffing their way out of tough situations, not outright assassinating any who look at them funny.
That's a bard who's role-played with a dark side. You've completely described a bard.
Quote:
Don't expect a rogue to do what a fighter does, otherwise you will just be disappointed. You say bards make better rogues, how so? Rogues are much more skillful, masters of traps, and make remarkable scouts. A bard just sits in the back tooting his trumpet, even if you made a bard that did more, he still isn't the guy you want to infiltrate and gather information so that your party can become more knowledgeable about the monarchy they are trying to overthrow.
A rogue can do many, many things. Just because they don't excel at combat doesn't make them useless. Their skills lie elsewhere.
Rogues get two more skill points per level, but it's not strictly accurate to say they're more skillful.
They do get bonuses to perception to find traps and checks to disable them; that's good! So does the Archeologist Bard, The Investigator, and the Slayer with the trap finding talent, on top of the trap breaker Alchemist. That's hardly a thing unique to Rogues.
Bards, on the other hand, get to fold two additional skills into their perform checks, which allow one rank to count as three on various checks, and they get EVERY knowledge skill for free with a bonus equal to half their level for no investment at all. If they actually invest in knowledge, they get even better at it. There's a lot of knowledges. Even if you built a rogue around knowledge checks, you can't make as many as a Bard does. If you built a WIZARD around knowledge checks, the Bard still generally comes out ahead. That's a lot of free skills.
The bard can also learn invisibility, which means at level 4 or so he can gain +20 to stealth checks as he darn well pleases. You don't get rogue talents that can help make up for that until way later in the game.
Additionally, the rogue needs good dexterity, intelligence, charisma, and wisdom to make it as an infiltrator and info-gatherer, as he needs to make stealth, knowledge, perception, bluff, diplomacy, and sense motive checks to do this job. The bard gets spells that key off his charisma score, so it's naturally going to be higher than the rogue's nine times out of ten, gets all relevant knowledge checks for free, and can fold sense motive and the other social skills he'll be making use of into a Perform check.
Sad fact of the matter is the rogue is going to have a devil of a time outdoing the bard at any of the things you described except for disabling traps, and then he's going up against the investigator, who will have MORE skill points than the rogue most of the time on top of having a number of out and out better versions of his powers.
If Pathfinder were a pro sports game, rogue would be on the bench and sent in to play the trap-monkey position only when the archaeologist bard or the urban ranger get tired.
Yes, rogues are great at traps, but other classes can do that now and they can also do many other things much better than the rogue.
I'm not exactly sure if you are bound and determined to be a sniper, but I currently have a 7th level Human Rogue (Knife Master) and a 6th Level Orc Barbarian. Their to hit and damage output is extremely comparable, assuming the Rogue pulls off a sneak attack. My build is all about acrobatics (I have a 27 Acro at 7th level) and will always maneuver to flank, so I'm generally dealing +4d8 per attack.
This Rogue is the one that I am running through RotRL with. From levels 1-5, even with a Samurai and an Archer in the party, I was outputting more DPR. Generally speaking, while my stealth isn't as high as my acrobatics, it is still nearly 20, which is more than enough to get past a lot of CR appropriate creatures.
Bear in mind, I do have wealth by level, so I have some nice toys to assist with AC and Acrobatics. I also recommend, if you can, taking the 1/6 Rogue talent alternate favored class ability. It will help you make the rogue you want and possibly save you a feat or two.
Rogues rely on bluffing their way out of tough situations, not outright assassinating any who look at them funny. You say bards make better rogues, how so?
Bards actually use Charisma for their spells, so they usually have better Charisma than a Rogue. Bards have Versatile Performance and Pageant of the Peacock, meaning that, all else equal, a bard will have better Bluff than a Rogue.
Your infiltration and information gathering prompt is actually hilarious, because Pageant of the Peacock gives the Bard a bonus to Disguise checks for appearing to be someone of a higher station (an aristocrat, merchant prince, or even a queen). Gathering information is a Diplomacy roll which Bards are better at because of Versatile Performance and their Charisma focus. If someone suspects them of being an intruder, they can use their Bluff skill on a Knowledge check via Pageant of the Peacock to prove that they're in the know on courtly affairs. Everything about Bards is better at skills than Rogues.
The difference between Bards and Rogues is mostly thematic. They essentially can do a lot of the same things, though they both have additional things that the other can't. A bard may be able to pull off a lot of the skill checks a rogue can, but must prepare himself ahead of time. A rogue needs no such preparation. A bard may have a better Bluff (and perhaps Disguise) than a rogue depending on how you build him, but a rogue (who may have only 1 less bonus in Bluff) would still excel at Acrobatics, Escape Artist, and Stealth. As well as having higher Knowledge skills (out of the ones the Rogue does have, ie Local) because of the fact that Intelligence is one of Rogue's main abilities.
Paired with this, before spells, the rogue has better Reflex saves and AC. (That is unless you purposefully try to prove me wrong and make a Bard with 20 DEX, essentially ripping the bard's abilities away)
The Bard is not a Rogue, the Rogue is not a Ninja, The Slayer is not a Rogue; the Inquisitor is not, the Swashbuckler is not, and neither is any class. No class is another class, so quit trying to build a class with a different class. You make a bard that does everything a rogue does, fantastic, but now you have a bard that sucks as a bard. All of those spells known slots you wasted on self-buff spells to allow you to pull off feats like a rogue are gone and can't be used for spells that will fit better both for your party and the setting that you are in.
You can argue which class does what better, but its all for naught. A rogue is designed to be a rogue, not a bard, not an inquisitor, and most certainly not a fighter. A bard was designed to be a bard, not a rogue. You most certainly can build a bard the way you would build a rogue, but why? You are just wasting the abilities that the bard has on a role it isn't meant to fill.
This is a role-playing game, if you want to crunch numbers and define ranks and tiers for the classes go play a different game. Stop trying to shoot people down for wanting to play a character you feel is inferior to yours.
EDIT: I did forget about bardic knowledge, so disregard where that is mentioned.
To make a rogue that doesn't suck: Be an Elf, Half-elf, or Human with Racial Heritage (elf). Select the Elf favored class bonus for Minor/Major Magic. Use Chill Touch as your selection for Major Magic. You now target touch AC for sneak attacks.
I don't ever put traps into my homebrew games, and I can't remember the last time I even saw a trap in a module I've run. Rogues may be fine trap-masters, but without traps, its a wasted skill. Sneak Attack and sneaking around, even making silent kills with Assassination by 10th level, which is available to rogue is truly a "rogue thing". To suggest this is not what rogues, do... before there ever was a ninja - this is what rogues did and excelled at.
The best thing about Rogues is that the class is straightforward and concise. Players generally do not labor their turn, taxing the patience of everyone at the table. Now Summoners, that is a class that sucks. 'Oh I'm sorry, you waiting to do your cute little move and attack?'
A rogue needs no such preparation. A bard may have a better Bluff (and perhaps Disguise) than a rogue depending on how you build him, but a rogue (who may have only 1 less bonus in Bluff) would still excel at Acrobatics, Escape Artist, and Stealth.
The bard doesn't need to invest heavily in Knowledge skills to outdo a Rogue, and they have plenty of skill points to be good at Acrobatics and Stealth and Escape Artist. Bards are spontaneous casters as well, they don't need to prepare anything.
You claimed Rogues can do things Bards can't. You were wrong. If people people don't care how weak Rogues are, that's entirely their business, but don't pretend they're not.
Thematics are entirely mutable. You can't present to me a character concept for a Rogue that is unfulfillable by a Bard unless he hates magic and refuses to use it, in which case a Sleuth Investigator is still better at everything.
The difference between Bards and Rogues is mostly thematic. They essentially can do a lot of the same things, though they both have additional things that the other can't. A bard may be able to pull off a lot of the skill checks a rogue can, but must prepare himself ahead of time. A rogue needs no such preparation. A bard may have a better Bluff (and perhaps Disguise) than a rogue depending on how you build him, but a rogue (who may have only 1 less bonus in Bluff) would still excel at Acrobatics, Escape Artist, and Stealth. As well as having higher Knowledge skills (out of the ones the Rogue does have, ie Local) because of the fact that Intelligence is one of Rogue's main abilities.
Um...this is awkward, but...no, it kinda isn't.
Intelligence is actually one of the rogue's only safe dump stats. Almost none of the rogue's abilities actually get better if you have high INT, and of their massive list of class skills, only 4 key off int. One of those is Craft, which rogues normally aren't going to use at all because rogues aren't a good crafting class. You get two knowledges and linguistics.
So unless you're really invested in major/minor magic and UMD on scrolls instead of wands, you're...actually pretty safe playing a rogue with 9 int because you still get 7 skill ranks a level, eight if you're human. The rogue's main abilities are DEX so it can use its primary skills of acrobatics, disable device, and escape artist (and generally finesse/twf) and CON so that it doesn't die, with WIS being a very clear third for perception checks and will saves.
Once a bard knows invisibility, he ALWAYS knows invisibility. He's not like a wizard who might not have it one day to the next; it's a spell he knows. Can the bard cast 2nd-level spells? He can turn invisible. No ands, ifs, or buts. The bard also, again, gets half his level to knowledge checks, which will rapidly outpace the rogue's intelligence bonus, and since he gets ALL the knowledge for free, he can often be a much better knowledge-monkey than the rogue with a SINGLE RANK in each knowledge check because all of them are class skills and bardic knowledge bonuses for him while the rogue is only designed to make knowledge (local) and knowledge (dungeoneering) checks. It's basically impossible without specific traits for a rogue to ever know more about nobility, history, or geography than the bard does, and these are all relevant checks for an info-gatherer. Since the Bard can become excellent at Bluff AND Sense Motive just by taking Perform (Sing) and so on, he actually has the skill ranks available to invest in Acrobatics, Escape Artist, and Stealth because his social skills are discounted as part of his Versatile Performances. When the rogue tends to have a 2-point skill advantage at best over the bard, you have to take into consideration that the Bard gets good at knowledge without using skill points just by leveling up and can make every point he puts in specific perform checks count as points in two other checks as well; hell, Acrobatics is a charisma-based skill on many bards because Perform (Dance) lets them do that. When you compare the fact that the bard class skill list and the rogue class skill list are basically identical except for the bard getting more knowledges and spell craft while the rogue gets Disable Device and Swim, it's pretty easy for a skill monkey bard to be good at all the same things as the rogue while also, and this is important, having spells. Among other things, having a spell list means the Bard often doesn't even need Use Magic Device, which is something the rogue is likely investing in big time.
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Paired with this, before spells, the rogue has better Reflex saves and AC. (That is unless you purposefully try to prove me wrong and make a Bard with 20 DEX, essentially ripping the bard's abilities away)
Actually, a lot of bards are dex-based fighters. Look at their weapon proficiencies; they are very similar to the rogue's, so a ton of Bards are using whips, short bows, and rapiers, all of which reward dexterity-based fighting styles over strength-based ones. Since their armor proficiencies are the same and their reflex saves advance at the same rate, the primary defense that the Rogue has that the bard doesn't is Evasion, not base save or AC. Archer bards and fencing grace/dervish dance bards are fairly common because bards fit that idea fairly well and don't particularly have class features that lend themselves to strength-based combat. You don't have to go too out of your way to make a very excellent bard without much besides high CHA and high DEX without giving up anything at all.
This is because you use the rogue class to build a ninja, which is wrong. A rogue is NOT a ninja. rogues don't sneak around in the shadows finding targets to prey on with silent kills.
A rogue is the embodiment of a charming party-goer who has a dark side. Rogues rely on bluffing their way out of tough situations, not outright assassinating any who look at them funny.
A class is almost never defined by a single lifestyle, especially a class as generic by the rogue :) Going simply by class abilities and stat priorization, the difference between the two is next to none. Some Rogues don´t sneak around in shadows, some do. And just because the iconic ninja aren´t particularly talkative doesn´t mean none of them are - they have the same skills and skill points as rogue, and tend to generally have pretty decent charisma scores. Sure, rogues have more social-fu in their talents, but they are just one of several options the class gets - and on the other hand, ninja have access to rogue talents by taking them as ninja tricks.
This is because you use the rogue class to build a ninja, which is wrong. A rogue is NOT a ninja. rogues don't sneak around in the shadows finding targets to prey on with silent kills.
A rogue is the embodiment of a charming party-goer who has a dark side. Rogues rely on bluffing their way out of tough situations, not outright assassinating any who look at them funny.
A class is almost never defined by a single lifestyle, especially a class as generic by the rogue :) Going simply by class abilities and stat priorization, the difference between the two is next to none. Some Rogues don´t sneak around in shadows, some do. And just because the iconic ninja aren´t particularly talkative doesn´t mean none of them are - they have the same skills and skill points as rogue, and tend to generally have pretty decent charisma scores. Sure, rogues have more social-fu in their talents, but they are just one of several options the class gets - and on the other hand, ninja have access to rogue talents by taking them as ninja tricks.
A class is not defined by any profession, lifestyle, or theme of your character. A class is a collection of abilities that you can use to create a profession, lifestyle, or theme for your character.
Several classes such as the bard, investigator, slayer, alchemist, and even ninja do a better job of enabling an effective rogue character better than the rogue class.
That doesn't mean you can't make an effective character that is the rogue class, but it is much harder than making one that uses a class that isn't as weak as the rogue.
I'm realizing now that since Hellcat Stealth requires 6 ranks (and isn't even a combat feat,) and Hellcat Pounce requires Hellcat Stealth, I don't see how the Hellcat Pounce comes online before level 9.
Oh wow, I totally missed that... That makes things difficult.
off the top of my head i'd say 'build a slayer or investigator', but since you seem set on the rogue class here's a few i've made over my time here:
'Iconic' rogue - tries to cover as many player headcanons as possible--sneaky, good with traps, dex-focused, etc. ends up very hard to find and can flank with himself for opportunist.
Spoiler:
Focused Study Human swashbuckler Rogue 17 / Horizon Walker 3
(rog 6 / HW 3 / rog +11)
*FCB spent on 2 rogue talents and 5 HP
*scimitar proficiency gained from swashbuckler
stats
str 10, dex 17 (7+2r), con 14 (5), int 10, wis 13 (3), cha 14 (5)
traits: trapfinder / defensive strategist (torag) or veteran of battle (gorum)
rogue talents:
2 - Combat Trick (Dervish Dance)
4 - Combat Trick (Shadow Strike)
6 - Minor Magic (Detect Magic), FCB: Weapon Training (scimitar)
11 - Fast Stealth
13* - Feat (Dimensional Savant)
15* - Opportunist, FCB: Improved Evasion
17* - Skill Mastery (acrobatics, disable device, [face skill], perception, sense motive, stealth)
19* - ???
* - available to take advanced talents
SNEAKY STABBY KNIFE GUY - objective is to get an init on the surprise round and use underhanded to maximize your initial damage (be it with a melee attack or a thrown dagger)[LARGELY STILL WIP]
Spoiler:
focused study human (knife master/bandit) rogue 20
stats
str 10, dex 16 (5+2r), con 14 (5), int 10, wis 14 (5), cha 14 (5)
traits - trap finder / defensive strategist (torag) or veteran of battle (gorum)
BAD TOUCH ROGUE - using the elf racial FCB and the major magic talent (chill touch) to bypass the usual accuracy issues of the class. also when you eventually get it, twilight knife gets you a flanking buddy that also deals sneak attack damage! also gets to flank with itself like the 'iconic'
FCB - minor magic 9 / major magic 8
+X heartseeking keen menacing courageous kukri,
+5 mithral buckler
+6 str/dex belt and wis headband
boots of the battle herald are a must
clear spindle+wayfinder ASAP
note that all three are melee-rogues. i'm tempted to try a firearm build for a ranged option that helps patch their crappy accuracy a little.
off the top of my head i'd say 'build a slayer or investigator', but since you seem set on the rogue class here's a few i've made over my time here:
'Iconic' rogue - tries to cover as many player headcanons as possible--sneaky, good with traps, dex-focused, etc. ends up very hard to find and can flank with himself for opportunist. ** spoiler omitted **
- - - - - - - - - -
SNEAKY STABBY KNIFE GUY - objective is to get an init on the surprise round and use underhanded to maximize your initial damage (be it with a melee attack or a thrown dagger)[LARGELY STILL WIP]** spoiler omitted **...
I think these handle the task really well actually. Good job on the rogue-ing.
I can't do most of it in PFS, but I guess thats more PFS's problem with rogue's rather than the class itself being broken.
I'm going to try and do something with chill touch now.
Out of curiosity, what are the shadow bloodline and horizon walker doing for the builds?
hide in plain sight for elevated light levels and hide in plain sight for lowered light levels.
makes stealthing much easier--and via soft step boots, dampened presence, and oils of negate aroma you can even hide from tremorsense, blindsense/blindsight, and scent (respectively).
and things like invisibility purge don't work against it, since it's plain stealth and not some manner of invisibility (even true seeing is powerless against it!).
.
also, instead of EH (shadow), you could go fro a 3-level dip into shadowdancer--same feat cost (in number, at least), dark HiPS from the get-go, an extra rogue talent, and a stat-damage flanking buddy at 3rd.
the ease of flanking would also let you pass on horizon walker and the dimensional savant line, freeing up more feats in the lategame
Have you already started playing this character? Are certain choices from your posted build set in stone? If you can still rebuilt, then
1) Change both of your traits. Get something that will improve Fort, Will, and/or initiative.
2) If you are sticking with human, then change your skill focus feats to Perceprion and Use Magic Device. You'll get more miliage out of those, and its pretty easy to get a bonus to Stealth from a magic item.
3) Precise Shot is not a feat tax. Its a way to never have to take that -4 to attack again. You can avoid the eldritch heritage/monkey thing by using a short bow. That will free up a feat. Using a composite short bow will allow you to add Strength to damage rolls.
Ninja might be able to pull off the sniper thing off more easily.
I think that one of the few viable builds of Rogue is a Counterfeit Mage/Scout Catfolk with Vicious Claws Rogue Talent and the Claw Pounce Racial feat.
You can dump Cha and Int and still have a awesome modifier with UMD, and Pouce to Full-Attack with d8 of Sneak Attacks.
Have you considered the scout sniper archetype. At higher levels you can move 10ft and fire a sneak attack shot. You get some +movement speed gear and you can keep distance from any enemy looking to take you down. Might be worth looking into.
Savage Critical
You are able to land critical hits precisely, dealing devastating damage.
Prerequisites: Str 19, ogre, sneak attack +2d6.
Benefit: When you hit a creature using the Vital Strike feat or confirm a critical hit against an opponent, add your sneak attack damage to the damage from the attack. This feat has no effect on attacks that already allow you to add sneak attack damage.
Savage Critical
You are able to land critical hits precisely, dealing devastating damage.
Prerequisites: Str 19, ogre, sneak attack +2d6.
Benefit: When you hit a creature using the Vital Strike feat or confirm a critical hit against an opponent, add your sneak attack damage to the damage from the attack. This feat has no effect on attacks that already allow you to add sneak attack damage.
seems like a good option for a critfisher build--vital strike with a falchion or similar 2H weapon fo maximum deeps
