Exxxxcept you can make a wand that uses multiple charges per casting, which in effect allows you to make 1, 2, 5, 10, 25 and 50 charge wands, shrinks the price proportionately, and is also part of the rules.
So, yeah, a 7 charge wand I want I want isn't likely. But if you want to commission it, a 5 charge wand is perfectly doable, using 10 charges per casting.
But is one just going to be sitting around for sale? No, it's a non-standard item. Commission it.
==Aelryinth
No, that is not how wands work.
Wands are always fully charged (50 charges) when created.
And, of course:
A wand is a thin baton that contains a single spell of 4th level or lower. A wand has 50 charges when created—each charge allows the use of the wand's spell one time.
Hm. Concrete rules that are written... or presumption by a fellow player?
The only rules that I can find remotely resembling what you're talking about belong squarely to making staves:
The materials cost is subsumed in the cost of creation: 400 gp × the level of the highest-level spell × the level of the caster, plus 75% of the value of the next most costly ability (300 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster), plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities (200 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster). Staves are always fully charged (10 charges) when created.
If desired, a spell can be placed into the staff at less than the normal cost, but then activating that particular spell drains additional charges from the staff. Divide the cost of the spell by the number of charges it consumes to determine its final price. Note that this does not change the order in which the spells are priced (the highest level spell is still priced first, even if it requires more than one charge to activate). The caster level of all spells in a staff must be the same, and no staff can have a caster level of less than 8th, even if all the spells in the staff are low-level spells.
I'd be all ears about rules that allow you to do the same for wands, and would love a citation to look it up so I could read it, if you could produce such a thing, however. That would be pretty cool.
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So how bout those summoners?
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You know figured I'd ask before giant walls of text regarding fictional economies about, fictional items, and how you run them in your heroic fantasy game makes the person you're talking to sound insane.
Personally I'm of the opinion of more complex economies based upon laws and regulations that help create incentives and promote safety. I see it as actually fun to dictate that wands and scrolls of say, fireball, are strictly regulated due to their destructive potential.
Likewise these same laws keep people from selling their bodies to necromancers for use as cheap labor as labor unions and good aligned churches have quite a bit of political clout.
*sigh*
But continue arguing RAW. I'll just go back to writing novels.
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i feel the same for the poor tonws filled with 50,000+ gp.
Likewise, I find you guys' stance on this to be very verisimilitude shattering.
Well I guess it depends on your definition of poor town. The magic item purchasing rules assume an average. If you wanted to ad-hoc conditions in a settlement to be different you could do that. I know that I myself have used GM-voodoo to ad-hoc a situational modifiers on a community to represent it doing poor or being in the middle of a boomtown rush (one simple method for doing so is to temporarily increase or decrease the effective size of the community for the purposes of available items and services).
If you're looking for something more concrete, the GMG has the impoverished disadvantage for a community which halves the GP values for a community to represent it being poor. In such a case, a lot of magic items and such disappear from a small town. More than half of them in fact since it cuts off off a lot of magic items from being within the community's limits (because -50% GP limit results in far more loss of magic item availability that -50% magic items).
For example, a poor town only has a GP limit of 500 gp (instead of 1,000 gp). This means that you just lost 11th-20th level 1st level potions, and even 5th level wands with more than 2 charges, etc).
Now the biggest monkey wrench to this comes with the introduction of splat material. Technically speaking, if you allow 20 new spells into your game, then suddenly there are scrolls popping up in stores for those 20 new spells, but this is just one of those cases where you have to smile and bear it for the sake of having a game that plays well.
Most D&D campaign settings however assume that the PCs are not the only major characters in a campaign. Rival adventuring parties are a common sort, retired adventurers, local heroes, or if you're using Paizo's NPCs, then every prostitute and drunk in the tavern (yeah, I'm poking fun at that).
Just because the PCs aren't in the town right now buying and trading magic items doesn't mean other people aren't. There are millions if not billions of people in the world. Town centers do not cater just to the 4 PCs.
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Personally I'm of the opinion of more complex economies based upon laws and regulations that help create incentives and promote safety. I see it as actually fun to dictate that wands and scrolls of say, fireball, are strictly regulated due to their destructive potential.
Likewise these same laws keep people from selling their bodies to necromancers for use as cheap labor as labor unions and good aligned churches have quite a bit of political clout.
Cool ideas!
But continue arguing RAW. I'll just go back to writing novels.
I was actually with you on the whole "How 'bout those summoners" thing. :)
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Personally I'm of the opinion of more complex economies based upon laws and regulations that help create incentives and promote safety. I see it as actually fun to dictate that wands and scrolls of say, fireball, are strictly regulated due to their destructive potential.
Likewise these same laws keep people from selling their bodies to necromancers for use as cheap labor as labor unions and good aligned churches have quite a bit of political clout.
*sigh*
But continue arguing RAW. I'll just go back to writing novels.
This reminds me of a major country in my setting where certain kinds of magic is strictly illegal (most anything having to do with evoking evil magics or anything to do with the undead). As a result there is an ad-hoc adjustment to the availability of certain items and such of those and laws prohibiting the usage of certain abilities. Tieflings are discriminated against in the community. Undead may be imprisoned or worse. Summoners have to be careful about what sorts of things they're summoning.
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This reminds me of a major country in my setting where certain kinds of magic is strictly illegal (most anything having to do with evoking evil magics or anything to do with the undead). As a result there is an ad-hoc adjustment to the availability of certain items and such of those and laws prohibiting the usage of certain abilities. Tieflings are discriminated against in the community. Undead may be imprisoned or worse. Summoners have to be careful about what sorts of things they're summoning.Personally I'm of the opinion of more complex economies based upon laws and regulations that help create incentives and promote safety. I see it as actually fun to dictate that wands and scrolls of say, fireball, are strictly regulated due to their destructive potential.
Likewise these same laws keep people from selling their bodies to necromancers for use as cheap labor as labor unions and good aligned churches have quite a bit of political clout.
*sigh*
But continue arguing RAW. I'll just go back to writing novels.
When I wrote for Mor Aldenn I reached in and snatched the laws section and ran away before anyone could catch me.
It had a reputation as a mostly lawless city. But that's mainly due to the mages lack of interest in mundane affairs. Their law system was split into two groups. The three major ones which applied to everyone and were heavily enforced. The first was basically don't hurt people or blow thigns up with magic, the second being that undeath creation was strictly regulated and had to be consenting, and the third being that all magical beings had to register.
The third was an interesting one since I noted it as being written purely because some dopplegangers had snuck in and started running a muck before eventually driven off. I even snuck a small criticism as mages pointed out that those doing illegal activity anyway wouldn't care.
But probably more important was throwing in the lesser laws. Essentially hundreds of laws made in the heat of the moment and forgotten almost as quickly just to head off one dangerous trend or another. Basically the governments way of saying "stop that you're making a mess".
It's sad that such things get ignored by GM's. Coming up with a weird or obtuse law for an area can create plothooks all and in themselves.
Like I ran a viking game where the players were warriors from Valhalla raised 200 years or so after their deaths to head off Ragnarok.
When they went to a massive dwarven city for help the palce was in chaos. Dwarven law dictates that inheritance goes to the next of kin. However if you are resurrected it returns to you. Well, unfortunately with so many dwarven heroes kicking their metal boots out of the tomb the economy was in total chaos and people found themselves in court cases against ancestors 1,000 years prior.
Fun stuff.
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If you rewrite WotR like that, you should document it since going by the popular opinion in it's forum section people will kill for that rework. I certainly would.That reminds me of when I was running Flight of the Red Raven for my brother and his friend and rolled a random encounter of 12 wolves. Humorously that fight actually did end pretty quickly because the psychic warrior had learned crystal swarm via a feat so my brother's PC drew their ire and she came up and sprayed the wolves. Didn't kill them but scared the crap out of them and made them run away.Heh, animals :P
Would you recommend Flight of the Red Raven?
-Nearyn
Overall, yeah, I'd say so. It was fun and the two players were having so much fun that we ended up playing a 12 hour marathon without realizing it (we started the module at 8pm, finished at 8am, then crashed). Beware though, because the NPCs use their treasure! Ooooh, scary. :s
The BBEG, a "monster" even uses a masterwork hammer and potions. D:
It's pretty cool though. I want to try running a few other modules in the near future (just been so busy working). I kind of want to run Wrath of the Righteous with some heavy editing by yours truly (basically killing the mythic taint with sacred fire).
Noted! :)
I would like a citation for wands that use multiple charges.
Eggsellent catch. There isn't one (for wands). And it's under the staff rules, not the wondrous item rules (although you could 'back door' the Special rules for determining gold cost if you want to reeeally stretch it).
Which, of course, means that being able to buy a wand at a specific charge level is even more unnatural. You're really buying a custom toy!
They even cite this very example of 'incremental buying' in the 'can I recharge a wand' rule as something NOT to allow, unless you force like 25 charges at a time. A few charges a day is far cheaper and more easily afforded then a fully charged wand, and that limitation is planned for the system. Note that being able to afford a 4th level wand with 5 charges means such a thing is accessible and affordable far earlier then otherwise, and being to recharge it 2 charges a day is extremely affordable!
======================
Crafters don't 'create wealth' in an economic sense, Ashiel. They perform a service, bringing raw extractive materials to the next level, adding a price as they do so, and charging those who buy the changed product for their time. But if nobody had raw material, there'd be nothing to Craft...thus, Crafting something up does NOT create wealth. It is the Second Economy. Making something more valuable by adding to it doesn't create wealth any more then making a piece of paper partially green with ornate markings creates wealth. Dollar bills are crafted items, and represent OTHER wealth, they don't 'make it'.
Note that crafting magic items is taking a raw material, magic, and putting it into tradable form. Thus, it's an extractive industry!
The standard is that if you extract raw material for 5 gp, the extractor takes 5 gp for it for living expenses and costs of extraction. The crafter pays that 5 gp, adds in his living expenses, and sells his completed item for 10 gp, 5 to replace it and 5 for living expenses and cost of crafting. The buyer is often a merchant, whose expenses now include transportation costs as well as living expenses, and so he takes the item somewhere else and sells it for 20 gp or more, adding on his transport and living costs to the cost to replace the item. It's pretty much how all economies work, with some fiddling of the doubling numbers. And yet it basically all boils down to the value of food, water, clothing, and raw materials.
So, it's not a creation of wealth, that's paying expenses. And it all starts with the First Economy.
Incidentally, if you've ever heard of the Gold standard monetary system (every dollar is backed by gold), this is exactly why nutcases want us back on it, and why it doesn't work. There isn't enough gold in the world to represent the rest of the wealth that is out there. You can, however, print enough money to represent it. All people have to do is 'believe' in it.
================================
I'm not sure cheap wands and scrolls do all that much for pure martials, Ashiel. I think they do great things for the UMD skill. Because pure martials can't use wands and scrolls, neither really help them, its the UMD skill that takes the credit...or the caster tagging along using it on the poor martials. Zza for henchmen...also not class abilities.
Now, if you're talking minor and partial casters, sure...but they aren't the pure martials.
Cheap potions, on the other hand, DO directly benefit martials, as they have no restrictions on use. I find myself irked often that it's the most overpriced of the consumable magic items.
My fighter rewrite explicitly got more benefit out of potions then other classes (potions were considered = fighter level, and healing potions doubled in effect, on top of that!). It was another way of evening the scale...some magic items just worked better for fighters!
==Aelryinth
the very example of a magic shop in the rules assumes that the shop does VERY little business...maybe making a sale of something 'normal' once or twice a month. They assume, what, 3-5 gp/day? Average?
You have to have an insanely huge magic store to actually do something like sell 1000 gp of stuff a day, Ashiel, yet you seem to think that's what's happening. I posit the reason why it's so easy to buy custom stuff is that the crafters are DYING for the chance to be employed multiple days to make that kind of money, and aren't likely to get another commission like that for some time when the adventurer leaves!
It's probably much more correct that very few people are going to spend their money on the kind of magic items that many adventurers want to buy, and so magic items are far, far less plentiful then you might think, especially scrolls and wands that 99.9% of humanity simply cannot use.
Furthermore, there are not hundreds of thousands of adventurers running around buying these things. Remember that each 'adventurer party' is full of unique and special individuals, and PC classed folk are not common enough to drive a magic item economy the way you seem to be describing. There aren't zillions of adventurer bands out there...there's zillions of worlds out there with some adventurer bands!
==Aelryinth
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Which, of course, means that being able to buy a wand at a specific charge level is even more unnatural. You're really buying a custom toy!
Wat.
----------------
"Oh, look, I've a wand of <THING> that I just made! I shall use it once!" *uses it once* "There! ... hm, I no longer need it. Alas, that was wasteful. Oh well, I'll just sell it!"
*someone comes along* "Oh, look! A wand of <THING>! It's partially used and thus cheaper! I shall buy it and use it thrice!" *uses it thrice* "I am done. I shall sell it."
*someone comes along* "Oh, look! A wand of <THING>! It's partially used and thus cheaper! I shall buy it and use it until I no longer need it!" *uses it ten times* "I am done. I shall sell it."
*PC comes along* "I've about X amount of gold, and am looking for a wand that does <THING>. Is there such a thing for sale anywhere, within a relatively broad fluctuation range, as per the RAW?"
GM: YOUR LOUSY CUSTOM ITEMS MEAN NOTHING TO ME, PEASANT! IT'S UNREALISTIC! SPECIAL ORDER SUCH A CUSTOM ITEM! But feel free to have all of these potions at (what is effectively for your level and wealth) unlimited quantities.
----------------
I'm certain that this is not your position, but it is what your arguments look like.
You're certainly allowed such customization in your home games, however. That's really cool!
uh, what?
*PC comes along* "I've about X amount of gold, and am looking for a wand that does <THING>. Is there such a thing for sale WITH EXACTLY X CHARGES, anywhere in the area?"
GM: There might be a wand around. Whether or not it's got 6 charges is totally random. Likely it'll be a created wand that hasn't been sold yet...people tend to hang onto cheap wands, or buy them up quick when they are offered. Stuff that's usually available for sale is the MORE expensive stuff, not the cheap stuff local folks can actually afford! Let me see if it's new and unsold, or 'used'...
Likewise, there's a good chance of potions being around, since everyone can use them, and while they're pricey per use, they're cheap 'per potion', so they sell more. Are you looking for potions? Keep in mind the gp limit of this town is only like 5k in total stuff to buy...
===
So, I'm not sure where you got that out of MY arguments, since that's NOT what I said.
And if you're ordering stuff, it's generally VERY easy to find stuff if you give people time to make it and a guaranteed market!
==Aelryinth
Yep, it's pretty clear you've left RAW by this point.
That's great! I hope it helps your game do better!
(It's what rule 0 is for!)
So, now that that's established, let's get back to them summoners!
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economics and stuff...
Do you really think Pathfinder has anything to do with real economics? Seriously? This is the game where everything is sold at 100% profit.
It's not that it's a bad simulation of economics... The game doesn't even bother to try and simulate real life economics. It creates simple formulas that are easy for people to use and calculate how much their stuff costs.
Your degree in economics is as useful to understanding the in-game economics as biology is to understand how the bodies of mythical creatures work. And that would be... Not useful at all. Because it simply doesn't follow real world rules. It doesn't even bother to try.
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Likewise, I find you guys' stance on this to be very verisimilitude shattering.i feel the same for the poor tonws filled with 50,000+ gp.
They already are, though... Even if we consider that for some reason, it's impossible to sell anything but fully charged wands...
You go and look for a (fully charged) wand of CLW. 75% chance to find it.
Then you look for a (fully charged) wand of Protection From Evil. 75% chance.
Then you look for a (fully charged) wand of Sleep. 75% chance.
Then you look for a (fully charged) wand of Magic Missile. 75% chance.
Then you look for a (fully charged) wand of Grease. 75% chance.
Then you look for a (fully charged) wand of Silent Image. 75% chance.
Then you look for a (fully charged) wand of... Well... You get my point.
And so on.
How many 0~4th level spells there are? Because each of those makes a different item.
(And let's not forget the different types of +1 weapons and +1 armors there are).
RAW is bonkers.
economics and stuff...Do you really think Pathfinder has anything to do with real economics? Seriously? This is the game where everything is sold at 100% profit.
It's not that it's a bad simulation of economics... The game doesn't even bother to try and simulate real life economics. It creates simple formulas that are easy for people to use and calculate how much their stuff costs.
Your degree in economics is as useful to understanding the in-game economics as biology is to understand how the bodies of mythical creatures work. And that would be... Not useful at all. Because it simply doesn't follow real world rules. It doesn't even bother to try.
You mean Ashiel's convoluted 'economics justification' makes absolutely no sense. It's what spurred the post.
I fully agree that the game doesn't reflect economics. But Ashiel's attempt to justify the amount of gold in a community using napkin-class economics has even LESS relationship to reality.
I didn't claim that I was representing PFS. Ashiel WAS. And no, he wasn't.
So point the finger at the proper target, please.m I don't like taking the blame for the stuff I'm not doing.
==Aelryinth
Yep, it's pretty clear you've left RAW by this point.
That's great! I hope it helps your game do better!
(It's what rule 0 is for!)So, now that that's established, let's get back to them summoners!
You mean I'm pretty much following RAW, and RAW, as Lemmy noted, is kind of weird. I ain't ruled 0 nothing but multi-charge using wands, which is kind of a port of the staff rules.
There is NOTHING in RAW that says you can state you're going to buy a specific type of wand with a specific number of charges left.
There are rules that you can FIND a wand with RANDOM numbers of charges as loot.
And that's where the rules pretty much end. Buying magic items goes straight off the treasure tables, and those are pretty much all fully charged (and for a reason!). Buying a Wand that's available that may have a random number of charges is a slight stretch of RAW, but understandable.
Treating each wand with different charges as a separate item so you can keep on looking until you get a cheap wand you want in the assumption you've infinite wands to pick through? Pure metagaming, and not in RAW, and actively discouraged by the (lack of) recharging rules. Literally, they don't want you purchasing partial charge wands for balance reasons.
I thought there was a maximum gp/community, above and beyond the limit/item, which means you can't buy unlimited stuff, too?
==Aelryinth
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Sir, you are either trolling or doing your intelligence (which is notable) a great disservice. You are wrong. You are not following RAW.
You are applying fiat and have been shown how.
If you can find an item of <value> in a community with a given %, and there is a concrete way of noting whether or not an item has <value>, you can find that item in a community with a given %.
This is not a difficult thing to grasp. You are very - very - welcome (and encouraged!) to run it in any other way at your table. Frankly, it's commendable: if it helps increase your or your players' immersion into the world, if it helps you or your players have a stronger grasp on what's happening, that's excellent.
But to assert that the way you interpret these things follows the rules as they are written is a falsehood - albeit perhaps an unintentional one. Perhaps you really do believe you're following the rules. You are in error.
I disagree with you a lot. I mean, a lot. But I generally hold you in respect for your intelligence and coherent arguments (even if I disagree with their interpretation). This is not a conversation for which I hold you in respect, because your arguments are incoherent. The mental gymnastics you are going through are convoluted and don't actually serve any purpose.
You note that you play your fighters differently with potions. Cool!
You take rules from the staff section and apply those to wands. Cool!
Those are good house-rules. They work for your game, and I like them.
You assert that there is no way to purchase a used wand in a community. How, then, can a player sell it? If purchasing is impossible, than selling is impossible.
Ah, but then you'd suggest it's only impossible for players, at which point you are subsequently directed to the base value/% available rules, which is how what is available is determined for players. (I've explained that this is an abstraction, like hit points and other similar things.)
Ahsiel did was show how it could work, if you justify the game within it's own self-contained loop.
You then leave the game rules to show that it doesn't work that way. Your rebuttal amounts to, "No, it doesn't work that way in real life!" which, you know, neither does magic or martial arts.
More on topic for the already-way-off-topic debate,
I thought there was a maximum gp/community, above and beyond the limit/item, which means you can't buy unlimited stuff, too?
... does not seem to be supported in PF (though I believe it was the rule in 3.5).
I looked at Settlements, but the closest I could find was in the Base Value and Purchase Limit rules.
This section lists the community's base value for available magic items in gp (see Table: Available Magic Items). There is a 75% chance that any item of this value or lower can be found for sale in the community with little effort. If an item is not available, a new check to determine if the item has become available can be made in 1 week. A settlement's purchase limit is the most money a shop in the settlement can spend to purchase any single item from the PCs. If the PCs wish to sell an item worth more than a settlement's purchase limit, they'll either need to settle for a lower price, travel to A larger city, or (with the GM's permission) search for a specific buyer in the city with deeper pockets. A settlement's type sets its purchase limit.
Hm. I learn something new every day.
Sir, you are either trolling or doing your intelligence (which is notable) a great disservice. You are wrong. You are not following RAW.
You are applying fiat and have been shown how.
If you can find an item of <value> in a community with a given %, and there is a concrete way of noting whether or not an item has <value>, you can find that item in a community with a given %.
This is not a difficult thing to grasp. You are very - very - welcome (and encouraged!) to run it in any other way at your table. Frankly, it's commendable: if it helps increase your or your players' immersion into the world, if it helps you or your players have a stronger grasp on what's happening, that's excellent.
But to assert that the way you interpret these things follows the rules as they are written is a falsehood - albeit perhaps an unintentional one. Perhaps you really do believe you're following the rules. You are in error.
I disagree with you a lot. I mean, a lot. But I generally hold you in respect for your intelligence and coherent arguments (even if I disagree with their interpretation). This is not a conversation for which I hold you in respect, because your arguments are incoherent. The mental gymnastics you are going through are convoluted and don't actually serve any purpose.
You note that you play your fighters differently with potions. Cool!
You take rules from the staff section and apply those to wands. Cool!Those are good house-rules. They work for your game, and I like them.
You assert that there is no way to purchase a used wand in a community. How, then, can a player sell it? If purchasing is impossible, than selling is impossible.
Ah, but then you'd suggest it's only impossible for players, at which point you are subsequently directed to the base value/% available rules, which is how what is available is determined for players. (I've explained that this is an abstraction, like hit points and other similar things.)
Ahsiel did was show how it could work, if you...
You're stretching the rules to justify your claim.
There's nothing in RAW that says you can buy wands at other then full value. Not a thing. ANYWHERE. No gymnastics. There are no rules.
The rules say you can sell things at half value, and that you can FIND items with lesser charges. No gymnastics.
How you logically justify not being able to buy stuff with reduced charges with the rules saying 'full charges' is your own house rule. It's a stretch. BUT IT'S THE RULES.
You can PORT the loot charges rule and apply them to BUYING stuff...but it's not RAW.IT'S A HOUSE RULE. No gymnastics.
If an item isn't listed in the treasure generation tables, you can't roll for it, you must order it. That's the way the system is. That's RAW. No gymnastics. Wands with non-full charges are not listed in the treasure tables.
What Ashiel did is show a bunch more House Rules to try and make the system fit logically.
But it is NOT RAW. It's a Rule 0, and trying to make it RAW isn't going to go over it with me.
Thus, my statement stands. By RAW, you can't tell the DM, "I want to buy a CLW wand with 5 charges" and expect him to roll for it. A CLW Wand with 5 charges is not listed on the treasure tables. You can't metagame and keep rolling until you get one. RAW is that the DM doesn't even have to roll randomly for charges. Full price, end stop.
And as I noted, Paizo SPECIFICALLY CALLED OUT that allowing the 'buying' of small charges of stuff was against their intentions and balance in the recharging rules, because of the easy affordability. So not only is RAW against it, RAI is against it!
And that's how the matter stands. If you don't like it, House Rule away...but don't claim that It's How It Is, because it's not.
So, what you're trying to do is go against both the letter AND the spirit of the rules with this whole "I want a 5 charge CLW wand, dagnabit!" argument. And it's not flying.
==Aelryinth
Ashiel, how often do your players craft a wand, use 1-49 charges of it, then sell the remainder?
This is, I think, a pretty solid question to ask and think about.
I can't speak for Ashiel, but I can definitely speak for myself: fairly regularly.
Generally, the way it works is this: crafter-person makes several wands of this or that for spells that are consistently useful, but don't need a high caster level or are frustrating to constantly prepare.
Eventually, we level out of the range where those are useful. Now we have wands that we've held onto for two-to-three levels without using. So... what are we to do? Sell them, of course!
Because of the way PF economics work, if you find a large enough community, you find a vendor within a certain limit. (And even if you can't find a vendor, you may be able to find a buyer; alternatively, you can sell it for a lower price.)
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There's noting in RAW that says you can buy wands at other then full value. Not a thing. ANYWHERE. No gymnastics. There are no rules.
You are incorrect. I've shown you the rules, linked them for you. Your persistence in your own assertion is... baffling.
So, answer me this question: does a wand with less-than-maximum charges have a lower value than a wand with maximum charges?
If you answer "yes", than it falls under the "magic items equal to or less than value" rules. If you answer "no" you are going against the rules of the game.
By the same logic that you can find a buyer willing to jump on your partially charged wands, we can infer those buyers will also jump on any wands you sell on the general market...they're cheaper, they don't have to part with the gold required of a full wand, and they're more likely to get full use out of it without 'growing out of it' and selling it back and losing money.
In short, the NPC market for 'partial charged wands' probably takes them out of the market very quickly, by your own logic.
But that's all gameplay stuff. RAW, you sell the stuff at half price and buy at full price, and its RAI as well.
==Aelryinth
There's noting in RAW that says you can buy wands at other then full value. Not a thing. ANYWHERE. No gymnastics. There are no rules.You are incorrect. I've shown you the rules, linked them for you. Your persistence in your own assertion is... baffling.
So, answer me this question: does a wand with less-than-maximum charges have a lower value than a wand with maximum charges?
If you answer "yes", than it falls under the "magic items equal to or less than value" rules. If you answer "no" you are going against the rules of the game.
You're quoting the SELL rules.
Your link was to the LOOT rules.
There was nothing there for the BUY rules that defined that you can BUY random items in a town at specific price points.
Nothing.
I am really totally unsure of where you are reading that you are justified in doing so. It's not there.
And you're going against both RAW and RAI, which I find strange, as well, given how hard you're cleaving to the argument.
Go read the 'recharge' rules. It's very clear. They don't want people 'buying stuff' i.e. recharging, at 5-10 charges at a time. It's RIGHT THERE. I can post them if you like!
==Aelryinth
But that's all gameplay stuff. RAW, you sell the stuff at half price and buy at full price, and its RAI as well.
Ah, I see the tack you're taking now!
Yes, you sell "at half price" for the value of the charges that are present. Otherwise, you're saying that, according to the rules, you can sell a mostly-used wand (with a lower value) at half of the full price.
There was nothing there for the BUY rules that defined that you can BUY random items in a town at specific price points.
... other than the actual literal ability to purchase items of a specific value with a 75% chance of success.
I have linked to the d20pfsrd multiple times. I have quoted the sections I've linked and only those sections.
I have yet to see you do anything that posture.
I can post them if you like!
Please do. I've requested you post (and link) rules that fit your interpretation before.
EDIT: you know what? Wait five minutes.
EDIT 2: New thread. Move this discussion there, and leave this one to summoners.
But that's all gameplay stuff. RAW, you sell the stuff at half price and buy at full price, and its RAI as well.Ah, I see the tack you're taking now!
Yes, you sell "at half price" for the value of the charges that are present. Otherwise, you're saying that, according to the rules, you can sell a mostly-used wand (with a lower value) at half of the full price.
the first part is correct. When did I ever say otherwise? I'm not sure how you were possibly thinking I thought otherwise?
==Aelryinth
There was nothing there for the BUY rules that defined that you can BUY random items in a town at specific price points.... other than the actual literal ability to purchase items of a specific value with a 75% chance of success.
I have linked to the d20pfsrd multiple times. I have quoted the sections I've linked and only those sections.
I have yet to see you do anything that posture.
I can post them if you like!Please do. I've requested you post (and link) rules that fit your interpretation before.
EDIT: you know what? Wait five minutes.
You mean, purchase specific ITEMS with a 75% chance of success.
Which are all listed at full value and full charges.Not specific items at specific price points for those items. Which is against RAW and RAI.
Ashiel brings up the Luck Blade. Note for the description of the Luck Blade, 'when randomly rolled, d4-1 wishes'. This does not mean '75% chance of being present.' It means if you roll up a luck blade for random loot, or guaranteed availability in a city (ie x items from table Y), it's got a variable number of wishes.
If you order a Luck Blade, you can SET the number of Wishes.
If you tell the DM, I want a Luckblade with 2 wishes, roll for it, he is just going to roll for a Luckblade, and it's going to have random or full wishes, as the DM wants, if one happens to be present. He's certainly not obligated to keep rolling until he finds one with 2 wishes.
Always random, there. Specific trumping regular rule, as it were.
==Aelryinth
these RAW arguments often seem like nothing more than a bludgeon for people to brain one another. Personally, I find it rather precious people are trying to tell one another how to DM the magic availability rules, especially when it explicitly calls these guidelines subject to GM discretion.
Magic Walmart has been around for a long time, some people never liked it and never played with it, others handwave it because they rather the players just get what they need and move on, some try to bring some sort of economic logic to it, and so on, people generally find the fit that works for their group.
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Further discussion of the magic item availability goes in the new thread. Let's move this discussion there, and leave this one to summoners.
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Ashiel, how often do your players buy/craft a wand, use 1-49 charges of it, then sell the remainder?
Answered in Tacticslion's thread.
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So, can someone give me a brief summary of the points for and against the Broken nature of the summoner?
Something like
Broken:
- A (rebuttal)
- B (rebuttal)
- C (no specific rebuttal, but ideas)
- D (refutation, no rebuttal)
- E (rebuttal and reversal)
Not Broken
- F (rebuttal)
- G (rebuttal)
- H (rebuttal and reversal)
... etc.
All I'm looking for is a list of things in the thread to date in a succinct non-rambling form/not interspersed with other arguments. I don't need specific persuasion one way or the other, nor lots of details. Rules citations would be nice when relevant, though! :D
I as a DM refuse to allow players to play the summoner class. The reasons are as follows:
Really, this was all I needed to hear to confirm my belief that they are broken and shouldn't be allowed:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=1033?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Q uestions-Here
Paizo Employee James Jacobs Creative Director Jan 12, 2015, 06:38 PM James Jacobs
Derek the Ferret wrote:
James - Say I'm a Fighter 9/Synthesist 1 and I have my fused eidolon out. What would my BAB be? +1 or +10?
Wouldn't matter in my case. I don't allow summoners in my game, and if I did, I wouldn't allow synthesists.
If JJ agrees they should be banned, that's more than enough proof I think.
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"Yeah I said it." ~Jason Buhlmahn
Best part of the banquet by far.
Unchained is kind of the moment where the paizo devs can show what they can really do.
1) 3.5 isn't restricting them.
2) the CRB isn't restricting them.
I am as inclined to ban the summoner as I am the rogue. New GMs just should not allow the class. Unbalanced characters are disruptive (no matter which way they are unbalanced).
The odd part is the summoner is just fine next to a wizard. But GMs can "rule" the wizard down a few notches without anyone bulking. The summoner far less so.
That being said a masterful GM can obscure all problems. Same goes for a player who really knows her stuff.
Design Manager
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I linked that in a few pages ago, no response at that time :P
Of further note is that Jason Buhlman also wrote the class (though I understand late hours, crunch time, and cold medicine were involved).
If one of the best professional game designers in the biz is willing to call his own creation the "most horribly twisted and broken thing you can have at your table", that should probably say something.
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I linked that in a few pages ago, no response at that time :P
Of further note is that Jason Buhlman also wrote the class (though I understand late hours, crunch time, and cold medicine were involved).
If one of the best professional game designers in the biz is willing to call his own creation the "most horribly twisted and broken thing you can have at your table", that should probably say something.
That the developers are fallible and writers are their own harshest critics? Oh don't I know it.
Sometimes I look back on my old work and die inside.
This is including even successful work.
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Design Manager
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I linked that in a few pages ago, no response at that time :P
Of further note is that Jason Buhlman also wrote the class (though I understand late hours, crunch time, and cold medicine were involved).
If one of the best professional game designers in the biz is willing to call his own creation the "most horribly twisted and broken thing you can have at your table", that should probably say something.That the developers are fallible and writers are their own harshest critics? Oh don't I know it.
Sometimes I look back on my old work and die inside.
This is including even successful work.
For realsies.
I was more getting at the fact that the issues are there and obvious enough to require public redress though.
They still haven't directly addressed the hot mess that is the Gunslinger and firearms system, despite the fact that Jason's face looks something like a death row inmate who just bit into a raw lemon when he even hears the word "gunslinger". Whether that's because UC is a less integral part of their line-up than the APG or because tthey've decided it's more costly to fix than leave, I can't say.
I linked that in a few pages ago, no response at that time :P
Oops, missed that!
Of further note is that Jason Buhlman also wrote the class (though I understand late hours, crunch time, and cold medicine were involved).
If one of the best professional game designers in the biz is willing to call his own creation the "most horribly twisted and broken thing you can have at your table", that should probably say something.
This actually makes me feel better about this clip - I was feeling a little bad for whatever designer poured his heart into the Summoner and then had the lead designer trash it mid-banquet. :-|
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This actually makes me feel better about this clip - I was feeling a little bad for whatever designer poured his heart into the Summoner and then had the lead designer trash it mid-banquet. :-|
Speaking as someone often privvy to the process of game design I promise you any trashing, cursing, throwing of objects and fisticuffs in the parking lot would have happened long before that.
After which both would support the idea to the grave through swollen black eyes.
The summoner spell list is problematic, a lot of abilities go off of spell level and having access to level 9 spells through the level 6 spell slot causes balance issues. Take the alternate racial trait of the samsaran, casters can access dominate monster or greater planar binding by level 11 or 12, this would be ok if it didn't make the other characters feel completely overshadowed.
I like minute a level summons as a standard action, I wish it was easier for other classes to get this ability.
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I kind of liked how summons in Neverwinter Nights worked, where you summoned a single creature and it was with you for a very long time; essentially allowing you to summon a cohort. No matter what level you were it was pretty cool/useful (unlike 1st level summoning spells where you cast, your critter takes one set of actions, then the spell is over) and you didn't really get the flood-spamming of summons.
Not saying this is necessarily how it should be by default. I kind of like the flood-spamming at higher levels (at high levels, sweeping adds with spells like holy word and banishment are a staple tactic). It'd be a pretty cool variant or optional thing though.