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Flame Blade lets you attack touch AC. So assuming you can find a way to apply your sneak, it should be easy to hit and get sneak damage.
Nature Fang druid lets you cast Flame Blade, gives you some sneak damage, and gives you an animal companion to act as dedicated flank buddy.
So, after Nature Fang 4, what is the best course for this character? Ninja X? Are there any feats or items that could make this more viable?
Ninja's Ki stuff is Cha based from what I remember, so not good synergy there. Maybe something that has sneak attack and can buff their abilities? I think there's an alchemist archetype that works with vivisectionist that gets a mind mutagen.
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i seem to remember somewhere that you can't add precision based damage to touch attacks
seems to me it was a big to do over the gunslinger and deadly aim
Pretty sure that's not true? Because I know "Scorching Ray + Sneak Attack" has an FAQ about it and is legal. But if you can find a rule about it I'd be interested to see it.
You can actually just go into Arcane trickster if you have a level arcane 2 SLA. It advances Divine spell lists as well. You can get 2 SA die from Nature Fang+Crocodile domain easily.
Ooh, this is awesome. I thought I would have to sacrifice casting progression to get full sneak attack progression!
It does mean slower access to iteratives, but still seems like definitely the best option. I've always wanted to try an Arcane Trickster, they're just tough to make work.
Which races qualify for the level 2+ spell-like? I am leaning towards Tiefling (for the "demon with a fire blade" angle) and I know Aasimar and Elf can also qualify. Are there any others?
Also, is there any cool new stuff in the Familiar Folio that I can use to make my dwarf caiman familiar an actual serious combatant, and not just a flank buddy?
Drow and Duergar spring to mind for the SLA.
The caiman is asking to get killed flanking and replacing familiars is expensive. The figment archetype should help.
Duergar is very interesting, especially because the Lingering Invisibility feat opens me up for Moonlight Stalker. The feat tax is pretty intense... but Combat Expertise is actually unusually good for this build considering I'm targeting touch, and honestly I have no idea what to take for feats (besides Power Attack.)
I've been pondering the use of a Dwarf caiman as a flanking friend and I must say the idea sucks. Not only is the Caiman super squishy (and it's death somewhat pricey) but it also sports an amazing 10 ft movement speed just what you need to reliably set up flanks ...
Yeah, it definitely needs some sort of mobility enhancement. Longstrider and Greater Longstrider should work pretty nicely for that, though. But I'd be interested to hear other ideas.
Yeah, it definitely needs some sort of mobility enhancement. Longstrider and Greater Longstrider should work pretty nicely for that, though. But I'd be interested to hear other ideas.
Just seems to me that it requires too much work to be made truly worthwhile...
Like I said, the figment familiar archetype. It reappears each day and you can give it the reach evolution to help set up flanks, as long as you take 3+ levels of druid before entering arcane trickster.
Offensive ability for it is harder. You could give it spell storing armor or a spell storing AoMF, but it might just be easier to wait until you can get the Improved Familiar feat for a better class of lizard - pseudodragon, faerie dragon and tidepool dragon all seem appropriate.
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I wonder if improved familiar can be used to replace the caiman.
Even if not, Mauler archetype and Mauler's endurance can boost its survivability by a fair bit. As it's your ally, you can just use gang up to flank without having to get in a flanking position.
Gang up would require at least one more person with the feat. Pack Flanking would do it though.
What does Mauler's Endurance do? I like the idea of the offensive oomph of the Mauler, but I see the survivability advantage of the Figment.
Current plan is 6 levels of Nature Fang druid (crocodile domain) with either a Tiefling or a Duergar using the Two-World Magic trait for Mage Hand. This gives me single-classed entry to Arcane Trickster at 7, with full druid casting!
If I went Duergar, I could build it like:
1) Blind-Fight
2)
3) Lingering Invisibility
4) Combat Expertise (Slayer Talent - Combat Trick), Sneak Attack +1d6
5) Moonlight Stalker
6) Power Attack (Slayer Talent - Ranger Combat Style), Sneak Attack +2d6
7 prestige into Arcane Trickster
I do like "tiefling with a fire sword" thematically, but I am not sure how to spend my feats/talents if I went that route.
Gang up would require at least one more person with the feat. Pack Flanking would do it though.
I don't actually qualify for Pack Flanking as the caiman is a familiar, not an animal companion. And anyway, it can't take teamwork feats without the Valet archetype, whereas I'm leaning towards Mailer or Figment. Gang Up is not actually a teamwork feat... but honestly I also don't see how Gang Up helps me that much. If I have an ally threatening, I'll just flank with him instead of with the caiman.
I don't think Gang Up works that way.
Dipping is not attractive to me because I'd lose my full casting. And 2 levels of Carnivalist would only give the caiman +1d6 sneak, so it's really not worth the caster levels.
Duergar is very interesting, especially because the Lingering Invisibility feat opens me up for Moonlight Stalker. The feat tax is pretty intense... but Combat Expertise is actually unusually good for this build considering I'm targeting touch, and honestly I have no idea what to take for feats (besides Power Attack.)Power attack can't work with flame blade. Doesn't operate with touch attacks.
Ah thanks, good catch. Ok, well now I REALLY have no idea what to take for feats.
Well if you're intent on flanking with your Caiman why not make it a Valet Familiar and snap up precise strike and Outflank?
You have a high critting weapon so that makes outflank even better.
I considered Outflank, but I don't really need any help hitting since I'm going vs touch AC, and also flame blade only has a x2 crit profile (not 18-20/x2 like a scimitar even though it is wielded as a scimitar) because it is a spell. The caiman will also have a x2 crit weapon, so we really won't be critting very often, especially considering there's no possibility of even getting Keen on the Flame Blade.
The Precise Strike feat is interesting, but I don't know if it's enough by itself to go Valet familiar instead of Mauler or Figment. But I'll take another look through the teamwork feats to see if there's anything else interesting in there.
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If you're just looking for a way to do touch-sneak attacks regularly - just wear Deliquescent Gloves. You can even TWF with them. You can't use them for anything immune to acid - but the same is true for the flame blade and fire. And frankly - I'm pretty sure there's more that's immune/resistant to fire than acid.
Not that a few druid levels are a bad thing.
Actually - if you get the gloves you could TWF with the flame blade and a glove - and if I'm reading it right - the flame blade would actually do 1d6 acid damage since it's wielded as a weapon. And just don't call forth the flame blade if something's immune too fire, instead just using the gloves. Plus - TWF is something to use your feats on!
What race are you thinking? It seems to scream Tengu to me. (The whole blade thing - plus the Dex/Wis bonuses.) Heck - since you don't need the blade proficiencies - you could give them the claw attacks to use at low levels and when your sword isn't up - not to mention having that bite is always handy with SA. And if you don't get the Deliquescent Gloves/TWF, you'd get a claw attack too.
Oh wow, that's a fantastic idea. I knew about the Deliquescent Gloves but had forgotten that you could use them as a touch attack as well as them adding damage to your weapon attacks. They're pretty cheap, too!
TWF definitely adds A LOT to this build. Thanks!
edit: reading the gloves again - do they actually allow you to make melee touch attacks, or do they just apply extra damage to your melee touch attacks that you might make for other purposes, such as casting spells? It would definitely be better for this build if it was the former, but I'm not sure from the text.
as far as races, if I want to go Arcane Trickster I'm limited to something with an arcane SLA of level 2+, so I don't think Tengu can work. Tiefling or Duergar is the current plan.
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Don't forget as a druid you have access to frostbite. There isn't much that is resistant against fire, ice, and acid. Pick the right spell for the target, and the 1d6 acid will apply to either one.
For that matter, produce flame is almost as good as flame blade in melee, and can also be used at range.
Rules question: if I use Frostbite with a Deliquescent Glove, it does 1d6+level cold damage and 1d6 acid damage. What kind of damage is the Sneak Attack damage?
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Don't forget as a druid you have access to frostbite. There isn't much that is resistant against fire, ice, and acid. Pick the right spell for the target, and the 1d6 acid will apply to either one.
For that matter, produce flame is almost as good as flame blade in melee, and can also be used at range.
Would the Deliquescent Gloves even add acid damage to frostbite or produce flame?
"The wearer’s melee touch attacks with that hand deal 1d6 points of acid damage. If the wearer uses that hand to wield a weapon or make an attack with an unarmed strike or natural weapon, that attack gains the corrosive weapon special ability."
It can be a seperate touch attack, and adds to weapon/unarmed/nat weapon damage. But I don't know if it would add to a normal touch attack spell's. I think flame blade is an exception because "You wield this blade-like beam as if it were a scimitar.".
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Rules question: if I use Frostbite with a Deliquescent Glove, it does 1d6+level cold damage and 1d6 acid damage. What kind of damage is the Sneak Attack damage?
I'd run it as half non-lethal cold, half lethal acid, similar to how a flame strike is half fire/half untyped.
Not sure on the RAW on that though.
Would the Deliquescent Gloves even add acid damage to frostbite or produce flame?
"The wearer’s melee touch attacks with that hand deal 1d6 points of acid damage. If the wearer uses that hand to wield a weapon or make an attack with an unarmed strike or natural weapon, that attack gains the corrosive weapon special ability."
It can be a seperate touch attack, and adds to weapon/unarmed/nat weapon damage. But I don't know if it would add to a normal touch attack spell's. I think flame blade is an exception because "You wield this blade-like beam as if it were a scimitar.".
Not sure if you saw my edit, but, the part that I'm actually unsure of is whether it CAN be a separate touch attack. The way I read it, it undoubtedly causes Frostbite or Produce Flame to do an extra 1d6 of acid damage. But, I'm not sure if it allows you to make an independent touch attack just to do the 1d6 acid.
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But, I'm not sure if it allows you to make an independent touch attack just to do the 1d6 acid.
It does. Well, actually, it causes all touch attacks to do an extra 1d6 acid. Anyone can make a melee touch attack at any time. That melee touch attack has no effect, but nothing is stopping a human barbarian from making a touch attack for no damage as "counting coup". With the gloves, the touch attack that you would use for no damage does 1d6 acid.
another alternative element type
Rod of Ice 1d4 ice touch attack. I do not know if you can iterative with it...I'm never sure if its a standard action to use it or not
Fire and ice... I like it! It looks like it's use-activated to me, so I think you should be able to use it for iteratives and TWF.
But, I'm not sure if it allows you to make an independent touch attack just to do the 1d6 acid.It does. Well, actually, it causes all touch attacks to do an extra 1d6 acid. Anyone can make a melee touch attack at any time. That melee touch attack has no effect, but nothing is stopping a human barbarian from making a touch attack for no damage as "counting coup". With the gloves, the touch attack that you would use for no damage does 1d6 acid.
This makes sense to me. But could you really, for example, touch an archon to end the effect of its Aura of Menace on you?
And would it not provoke? The rules on touch spells in combat say
Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
but that specifies only for when you're using a touch spell.
I very much want this to work, I just want to be prepared if I come across a stickler GM.
Flame Blade lets you attack touch AC. So assuming you can find a way to apply your sneak, it should be easy to hit and get sneak damage.
Nature Fang druid lets you cast Flame Blade, gives you some sneak damage, and gives you an animal companion to act as dedicated flank buddy.
So, after Nature Fang 4, what is the best course for this character? Ninja X? Are there any feats or items that could make this more viable?
If you can find a way to get greater invisibility (Hi, allied arcane spellcaster!), you can use Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot with produce flame to get a bunch of ranged touch attack sneak attacks--using a 1st level spell! Haste might help too.
I think there is a Weapon Finesse-able version of Power Attack. Piranha Strike? Something like that...
Dang, I gotta say I am getting really excited about this character! This thread has given me some incredible ideas!
Duel-wielding Flame Blade and Frostbite.
Getting acid damage on all attacks with Deliquescent Gloves.
Switching to Divine Trident and Frostbite when enemies are fire-resistant.
Having full druid casting through Crocodile domain Nature Fang into Arcane Trickster.
Flank buddy from Crocodile domain.
And I originally dismissed Tengu because I thought it lacked the SLA I needed, but now I realize I can grab Long-Nose Form, and even use this character in PFS.
Keep the ideas rollin'! One more "problem" I have - this character doesn't really need stats, as none of these spells allow saves, and since I'm attacking touch AC and can't get Str/Dex I don't really need to prioritize them beyond what's needed for TWF. How should I spend my point buy?
edit: Oh whoa, if I go Tengu I can even take Tengu Wings (awesome!) instead of Long-Nose Form (pretty useless) to qualify for Arcane Trickster.
My understanding is that melee touch attacks are always finessable. For the same reason that Flame Blade has a x2 crit profile instead of 18-20/x2 like a scimitar, it is finessable (as a melee touch attack) even though a scimitar is not usually finessable. But, correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't like the idea of dipping because I don't want to lose any caster levels.
Besides touchy doom, I'm thinking that battlefield control is probably the most useful thing to do. So I guess I should go Wis>Dex>Con>Int>Str>Cha?
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I'm thinking of an alternate form of this as a pyrognome Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor of Sarenrae. Pyromaniac will give Produce Flame, which can be cast multiple times via recharge inate magic. Sarenrae inquisitors gain Flame Blade as a 3rd level spell.
Sneak Attack + Studied Target + (+1 caster level) + Bane/Greater Bane on produce flame/flame blade seems quite tasty. No flank buddy though.
i seem to remember somewhere that you can't add precision based damage to touch attacks
You might be thinking of thrown splash weapons.
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I'd focus on dex, with secondary wis/con. Most targets aren't going to be too hard to hit with touch attacks - but with mid/low BAB and TWF, and no magic bonuses - you might still have issues against finesse type enemies and with iterative attacks. (monks will be your bane)
Also - dex will help your AC - which is handy if you'll be in melee.
You can dump charisma and strength. (even a negative strength won't hurt your damage - though you might consider the trait which gives you +2 for encumbrance if you dump it)
If you go Tengu - something along the lines of this might be in order - though it may be a bit on the min/maxy side. *shrug*
Str:7
Dex:19
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:16
Cha:7
Though again - if you dump strength that far - be sure to take the trait to make it count as 9 for encumbrance. And obviously Weapon Finesse as your 1st level feat.
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Extra thought - since you'll be fighting in melee with mid/low BAB - the feat which increases you CMD as if you had full BAB might well be worth it by mid levels when it gives your CMD at least a +3 boost. Usually you either have at least mid BAB or you shouldn't be in melee anyway - this character would be an exception.
